I am quite stupid, but I would like to ask a question. There is this whole submarine problem going on and a lot of the problem seems to be that there is no other vessel to go down and rescue them. But it misses an important question that, and I am dumb I did say so so don't get mad at me, that should be asked; if there's no vehicle to get them why does there need to be a vehicle? Seems easier to make two miles of cable and drag them up than go and make some craft to go get them. But why is it stupid and wouldn't work? All of it, aside from the finding where they are, seems so simple?
It's hard to remotely steer the hook end of a cable to attach to a moving vessel. You have to remember they're 4 miles deep
with lighting, sonar, and a camera, with electrical wiring going back to the surface, finding and steering it wouldn't be hugely difficult. what will be difficult is getting it to grip onto something, but even then it's not like you need tonnes of force, chances are the thing is just a hundred kg sub-buoyant.
While technically possible, it's not feasible in the timeframe.
You wouldn't be able to control a hook tied to 4 miles of cable constantly shifted around by underwater currents, with zero visibility.
how does dropping an anchor work
In water less than 30m deep
how do ships figure out if its safe to go into shallow waters
By going during high tide and reading maps
Maps, tide predictions and sonar help a lot.
We just need to magnet fish them out. Call the magnet fishing channels to hop in and take care of this one. Boom, done.
Situations like this are manufactured to create the illusion of consent for more govt funding to give more fake jobs to the friends of those in govt. Hope that helps.
Any cable to that depth might be impossible due to the sheer weight involved.
Would need a massive wench and a very large boat / platform floating on a windy, cold and unstable open ocean...
You ever play that crane game at the arcade? That's why this won't work
>need a massive wench
True but I don't see how it will help OP in this case.
>Any cable to that depth might be impossible due to the sheer weight involved.
I mean, it's still not an amazing idea, but you're also just flat-out wrong.
Literally look at your numbers in the graphic you posted. 100,000lb of tension on a 2.4" cross section is only ~42,000psi. Common stainless wire rope is usually 70,000psi breaking strength. Some alloy steels, like music wire, are typically well over 200,000psi tensile strength, and can get up to about 400,000psi.
>Would need a massive wench and a very large boat / platform floating on a windy, cold and unstable open ocean...
Look up ships made to lay undersea cable. They can carry absurd amounts of very large cable. You wouldn't need anywhere near the kind of capability that already exists on those vessels.
The cable itself is not the issue. The reason you can't just fish them out (other than the fact that, you know...they're in pieces) is that trying to hook a sub at the bottom of the ocean wouldn't be that far off from trying to thread a sewing needle by dangling the thread from the top of a 2 story building while wearing a blindfold. Even if you put a tiny robotic sub at the end of the cable, it would have to be powerful enough to resist the currents trying to drag the cable around, and anything powerful enough to do that wouldn't need the cable to pull up a sub just on the other side of buoyant.
>Look up ships made to lay undersea cable.
Completely different situation. The cable is just dropped and allowed to sink at those depths. If any maintenance is required to those sections it has to be picked up from a much shallower point and wound in. There is exactly one rig capable of sending a cable to these depths, the us navy FADOSS. It is a mobile unit that can be installed on a ship and is autostabilizing to deal with the currents. It needs to work with an ROV in tandem to actually get it hooked up. Only a few ROVs are capable of operating at those depths. They recovered a sea Hawk helicopter from 19500 feet near Japan, I think that is the record. It took days though, everyone involved knew there was no chance of a successful rescue from the ocean floor. In short, it isn’t the load capacity of the cable, it’s the winching mechanism itself that must be designed to operate at those depths.
You need an ROV to attach the cable obviously.
OK, good points all.
A moot issue now since the sub is toast.
But I have lots of questions; why no comm cable, why no auto ping, why no black box...
On and on.
Honestly, I don't know if I should be sad for the victims or giddy for the comedy of this whole f***up.
But for sure, I would never have gotten into that POS toy boat even if they paid me.
PS: Now I'm mad they led the public on for nearly a week searching - while those in the inner circle apparently knew the damn thing imploded way back on Sunday afternoon.
> why no X
Because they were cheap fricks. Nothing they did was particularly unusual though, but that’s mostly because there are so few comparisons. Vessels designed for those depths tend to be very bare bones as they are only intended for single missions with near total rebuilding for repeat uses. This one was intended for passengers though, and so they were out of their mind building it out like the others. It’s like using an experimental jet fighter for passenger use. As for the Navy detecting the implosion and not announcing it, I see two possibilities. The whole political Biden using it as a distraction, given his track record I don’t find that too absurd. More likely though they just didn’t really have a choice. They heard an implosion, but they couldn’t prove it was them specifically, so they still had to go through the motions. They could announce it and look like morons if it wasn’t then and they were rescued, or hold off for confirmation.
>PS: Now I'm mad they led the public on for nearly a week searching
Why is what the moronic public FEEL important when it does not affect their lives? It's entertainment, that is all.
>PS: Now I'm mad they led the public on for nearly a week searching - while those in the inner circle apparently knew the damn thing imploded way back on Sunday afternoon.
The fact that they didn't announce this until after they'd found wreckage means that they couldn't be sure. What would be worse - spending a week of search and rescue efforts to definitively find the sub, even with only a small chance of someone surviving, or giving up prematurely and leaving any potential survivors to die?
The US navy had a sonar tech say 'yep that was definitely an implosion
No one ever thought they were finding anything it was always recovery op that why they only sent one ship out
>anything powerful enough to do that wouldn't need the cable to pull up a sub just on the other side of buoyant
I was thinking that a tether would still be a good idea just for powering the thing and having it be remotely operated. So you're not reliant on battery power or oxygen, like with the Kursk submarine disaster. In that case, the Mikhail Rudnitsky rescure ship's AS34 DSRV didn't have enough time to latch onto the aft escape trunk to make a seal due to the batteries running low.
You could even make the tether be neutrally buoyant by adding small floaters along its length or using some other material, that way you don't have to worry about the cable weight for suspension at all, aside from its momentum when manoeuvring.
Not sure how easy it is to remotely operate a sub at those depths without a cable, considering the signal attenuation through sea water.
>Would need a massive wench
Time to call up yo mama, then
okay they're dead threads over bye
Noooooo not the heckin diversirnos
Carbon fiber is amazing, but my understanding is they rounded up the thickness needed from like 4.5" to only 5". This seems like a ludicrously small safety margin.
Only a fricking moron would use carbon fibre for a subsea vessel. It is trash. I work with these things. We did tests with a carbon fibre housing for cameras/lasers. If it didnt fail instantly it was just a matter of time before the carbon fibre weakened and the housing imploded. Titanium and duplex steel is above and beyond everything else.
sub went poof
*foop
^bpitt
What was the point of making this thing from lightweight materials like titanium and cf? Just for marketing?
Stupidity. Ti is corrosion resistant but composite is an idiotic choice because it's so difficult to control its behavior or to NDI it over time. There is no shortage of steel so wanting to use composite was fundamentally wrong. Everything on that shitbox that was not done in the manner of Alvin (over 5000 dives) was wrong.
It is wrong to test systems and materials with passengers when the passenger is not at all necessary for the test. Hubris Boy imagined success in one narrow unrelated realm exempted him from the realities of materials, design and ocean pressure. His passengers being educated should have known better proof being others who chose to avoid that doomed clusterfrick.
The childlike sense of wonder shuts off intelligent sense of wonder in most people because they refuse intellectual self-discipline. The engineers who build reliable systems of course feel wonder but pursue wonder with wisdom.
>Everything on that shitbox that was not done in the manner of Alvin (over 5000 dives) was wrong.
You mean like how it sank with three crewmembers barely escaping and sat on the ocean floor for over a year and was finally recovered after multiple attempts and was completely rebuilt?
I mean, someone could still do that if they wanted to and had the resources.
Or do you mean how the development of Navy DSVs was entirely paid for with taxpayer money and operated by the US military, whose personnel are similarly told up front that they might die while engaged in activities related to DSVs, and understand that the government has immunity from legal action related to those deaths?
It sank because it fell off of a boat with the hatch open. After 200 dives. Hardly a point against it. Yes it has been completely rebuilt several times. Each time allowing it to go deeper. I'd say doing routine overhauls on something that goes over 10,000 feet below sea level as a reasonable standard. It would be dumb not to.
God I hate people like you. Just making an opinion off guesses. Carbon fiber and titanium is the standard, the company didn’t even make the hull, they contracted it out to the same people who do it for everyone else.
> Carbon fiber and titanium is the standard
HAHAHAH!
> Experts say carbon fiber is a relatively new material, especially for building submarine hulls, that has not been tested over time in such extreme depths.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/carbon-fiber-one-titan-submersibles-experimental-materials-comes-scrut-rcna90856
It may also interest you to know that yes, an outside company did build the hull. An outside company also made the view ports and would only certify them to a third of the depth the sub was going to. The company refused to spend the money for the proper parts.
Page 9
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.262471/gov.uscourts.wawd.262471.7.0.pdf
>Just making an opinion off guesses.
Kek
>It may also interest you to know that yes, an outside company did build the hull.
That’s what I told you, fricking moron.
> It may also interest you to know that yes
I see you also have a tenuous grasp on the English language. See that “yes” in there? That’s me acknowledging that what you said was correct. That an outside company did build the hull. I went on to further explain why that didn’t matter.
How do you come looking THIS uninformed in the age of google? Maybe if you spent more time educating yourself in subjects that interest you instead of rage posting, you wouldn’t trigger yourself so often and come off looking like a fool.
>I see you also have a tenuous grasp on the English language
If you have such an excellent grasp then why the ever loving frick would you say "It may also interest you to know" ... something he just fricking posted???
The level of moronation you're displaying is remarkable, anon.
>The company refused to spend the money for the proper parts.
The emails from the CEO are hilarious: "We have heard the baseless cries of ‘you are going to kill someone’ way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult.”
That ghetto pipe weight setup was also mongtarded and looks like it was welded by drunk children.
Titanium spheres are the literal standard for DSVs. The absolute moron that designed this sub wanted a DSV that could hold 5 people for a tourism racket, but no legitimate sub builder would do it because that means making a frickhueg titanium orb (that he couldn't afford) or a shape that they know would fail at that depth. So he thought hum dur well carbon fiber is pretty strong right? And then made a tube of it and glued on two spherical ends and called it ~experimental~ to hand wave the lack of certification. Then he went on multiple interviews and lied about testing it, claimed to have partnered with industry leaders (from unrelated industries) in it's design, and put the ol' cowboy spin on his corner cutting. The cheap bluetooth controller was a a brilliant idea according to him, he even had spares in case it failed! The lack of seats made the interior roomier! The complete lack of air scrubbers was to make it quieter, why would you need to worry about carbon dioxide levels? Just open the valve on an extra oxygen tank under the floorboard if anyone starts feeling light headed.
>Titanium spheres are the literal standard for DSVs.
I see why titanium is attractive material for the purpose. But let say you are not a government entity with virtually unlimited supply of other people's money. Would a cheaper steel sphere do the job just as well?
I get that it's heavier for the similar strength and that it will corrode by several orders of magnitude faster than titanium. But if you were intending to do some tourist grift trips and not keep it in service for half a century, doesn't sound like a bad option to me.
>Would a cheaper steel sphere do the job just as well?
No. Steel is more susceptible to cavitation, which in this context means the creation of microscopic voids in metal under stress - especially repeated extreme stress like a DSV would be subject to. Normal subs can get away with steel hulls because the don't go that deep, and they're generally built larger to hold bigger ballast tanks to counteract the increased weight. But say damn the weight, just make it a foot thick to survive unlimited deep dives, with the best marine coating for surface protection, give it a massive support structure to hold all the additional ballast and bigger motors and everything else to make it function. Now you're going to need a bigger mothership to hoist it out of the ocean. Real quick you notice the money saved by going steel vs titanium is spent elsewhere, and the absolute unit of a DSV you've created is b***h to control underwater from all that mass. Would it get the job done? Yeah, probably. But definitely not as well as a properly designed one.
That would be so cool. A big DSV that you wouldn't have to feel in danger. 1foot thick walls and everyone would claim it to be un-burstable!
Pressure is such a tough problem, especially wet, watery pressure.
A cheaper steel sphere would do a better job, you fricking moron.
1. A sphere is the ultimate shape for strength.
2. It is carbon fibre which gets weaker over time, not steel. Steel and titanium is the norm in the subsea industry, especially titanium.
Pic related, use this on yourself, you inept moron.
>Reading comprehension
>complete lack of air scrubbers
Gonna point out I was wrong about this detail, I didn't see any sources mentioning it at the time but additional reading led to an interview with Rush where he said the sub had battery powered sodasorb scrubbers in the cabin and LiOH blankets as a passive backup - both commonly used in subs for this exact purpose. So it seems he was slightly more prepared to be trapped in that coffin for days than it initially seemed, not that it mattered in the end. The more I learn about Oceangate the less it seems like a complete scam. They actually did some testing before putting people in it, just not enough, nor any full scale unmanned tests. Probably couldn't due to the communication loss issues they've always dealt with. They also rebuilt the carbon fiber hull at least once, tacitly acknowledging that their carbon fiber hull which they claimed was stronger than titanium had suffered significant cyclic damage much faster than anyone expected. But even that seemed to be based on Rush inside the thing, listening to the creaks and cracks as it descended, and essentially going "huh that sounds worse than last time" and not on any radiographic testing which would have been invaluable to actually legitimizing it as an experimental vessel.
>some tests
That DSV went to the titanic somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 dozen times over the span of 3 or 4 years. It worked, it just had no protocol for testing the integrity of that carbon fiber pressure vessel. The guy who pressed for that protocol got fired. His concern was that the pressure cycling would weaken the carbon fiber and lead to failure. He was right. When something works a couple times, it can really blind people to the possibility that it may ONLY work a couple more times.
>That DSV went to the titanic somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 dozen times over the span of 3 or 4 years.
according to wiki they only did 6 dives in 2021 and 7 in 2022, and one in 2023 that we all know of
It’s a simple fact of life that we betrayed the ocean when we grew lungs and legs and moved to the land.
Man’s hubris of returning to the depths is met with the crushing weight of the sea and the rejection of breathable oxygen.
All those 50 year old white experts keep telling us that our vessel is a deathtrap and they just aren't "Inspirational" enough.
>submarine implodes
>suddenly everyone is an expert on why it imploded and why they shouldn’t have been out there
Bunch of fricking pseuds, I bet half of you drive with a check engine light on. Everyone on that sub knew there was a risk of death but they did it anyway because it’s awesome.
>ceo told of risks of sub a million times
>ignores warnings
>sues engineers for breaking NDA over warnings
>self certifies and ignores all experts on the subject
>multiple letters from experienced sub divers and engineers
>ignored
>dies in a catastrophic disaster that could have easily been avoided
>much like the original story of the fricking Titanic drowning billionaires, but like a Netflix ripoff with more minorities
Hindsight doesn't even need to be 2020, this is like someone telling you not to bungee jump with a frayed cargo bungee cord and doing so anyway, to your death.
Makes me think of Doug.
LOL, picrel is his big brain take on the sub debacle...young men are committing suicide because people advise them not to take suicidal chances!
>much like the original story of the fricking Titanic drowning billionaires
Titanic was a marvel of engineering at the time and not some billionaires' personal deathtrap. It was designed to handle collisions with icebergs, just not a glancing pass that ripped a hole through several compartments because until then that wasn't a thing anyone really considered a risk. Ironically if the captain had steered directly into the berg and rammed it head on at full speed the ship would have survived. Damaged for sure, but not sunk. Also, if the compartment doors had functioned properly and sealed off the flooded areas as designed it likely wouldn't have sank either. The reason it didn't carry enough lifeboats for all passengers and crew was because everyone from the designers to inspectors to captain to coal monkeys down below were comfortably confident about the ship being unsinkable. They were wrong of course, but comparing that with this joke of a sub that came with a risk of death waiver is disingenuous.
>if the captain had steered directly into the berg and rammed it head on at full speed the ship would have survived.
This is a YouTube meme. Stop treating those homosexuals like experts. Ramming an iceberg would’ve been devastating, and instead of there not being enough lifeboats for the survivors, there wouldn’t be enough survivors for the lifeboats.
Of course it would be devastating you moron, I just said the ship would have survived. Not all of the passengers. Not undamaged. Just survived. Anyone in the front of the ship? Utterly fricked. Lots of injuries from people being thrown against cabin walls and I'm sure plenty of related deaths, but not nearly the amount that died in the actual sinking. Just as drunks tend to fare better in car crashes, sleeping people would be limp at the moment of impact and survive better than someone awake and involuntarily tensing up as the brace themself. The ship could only go 23 knots and ramming a berg head on wouldn't be an instant stop - the forward compartments would crumple as they were deigned. The ship was specifically designed to stay afloat if the full front quarter of were destroyed and flooded. That's part of why it was considered unsinkable. It would be incapacitated and probably more expensive to fix than build a new one, but again, better off than the glancing blow to starboard that managed to flood 6 compartments.
No, moron, it would not have survived. Half the crew would be dead, and the ship would sink. Such an idiotic fricking claim.
>. Everyone on that sub knew there was a risk of death but they did it anyway because it’s awesome.
Nah, we're so used to being told that everything is deadly so we don't believe it until the bungey cord breaks and grandma plummets to her death.
I haven't even heard of this sub before it popped.
>drive with a check engine light on
I'm not changing the fricking charcoal canister, EPA can suck my balls.
Nah, they were just stupid. You don't understand subs either so you confuse high risk idiocy with wisely calculated risk in superior systems which also offer more fun.
The billionaire builder was a cheap homosexual who could have afforded an Alvin with all the trimmings but no, he chose a shit hull material and ghetto design all around despite repeated warnings from competent men who do professional work and not incidentally are still diving in subs whose successful ascent count matches their descent count.
Idiot boy confused his high narrow competence in making money with high general competence and did not test or measure his results for example by unmanned test missions. He failed to understand composites can be fine for pressure vessels but poor at resisting external pressures. He failed to NDI the shell and asserted at least once that could not be done (lie, any jet mech or NDI troop has worked with x-ray and other gear capable of examining much larger structures and that shit dates back at least sixty years).
He was a sloppy fool who killed his crew for no reason.
>Idiot boy confused his high narrow competence in making money
Unfortunately many other idiots confuse the same thing, which is why so many trusted him. Sorta like how you see Bill Gates spouting off his brilliance about every trending topic, and getting lots of attention, when all he's qualified to discuss is running an unethical business that is built on a quasi-monopoly. And Donald Trump, who is only qualified to talk about starring in a tv show, but basically failed at or was bailed out of every other venture in his life.
Fascinating to read these comments. Thank you for making the time to posts these. I may start archiving DIY.
To succeed, copy success (Alvin has over 5000 dives and the same number of ascents!). The problem is solved. A billionaire with Alvin money israelited out and killed himself and the fools with him. Laughter ensues and a new billionaire is made.