but since i'm already replying, if it is to be a NATO standard it probably wont happen for another 10-20 years. As for chinese/russian copies, honestly I doubt russia will anytime soon, China might in the next 3-5 years just as a propaganda thing, but I doubt either country would be able to field a system in the short term that could utilize an 80k PSI rifle cartridge.
No it's fine. Recoil impulse and velocities have nothing to do with chamber pressure, throat erosion is dictated by case capacity/bore diameter, the new round is about the same amount of overbore as .270 win, which isn't great, but not even as bad as 6.5cm or 6.5x55
Could taurus reliably make good enough chambers?
Probably not, but plenty of companies can.
I think it’s kind of moronic honestly. Why couldn’t they just make the AR-10 the official weapon of the US Army and call it a day? What’s wrong with 7.62? Also, I find it kinda dumb that the Marines and the Army, two branches that work closely with one another, did not coordinate on selecting a uniformed round so logically problems wouldn’t occur. Idk tho.
>Why couldn’t they just make the AR-10 the official weapon of the US Army
the MCX pattern is much better suited for military use than the AR-10, all the wear areas are replaceable and a SSGP system is cleaner than DI. >What’s wrong with 7.62?
its not powerful enough to go through modern armor
> It's not powerful to get through modern armor [i.e. level 4 plate]
Neither is 6.8. But hey, no more overmatch on random fireteams away from the platoons 240s from a random goat fricker with a PKM, which was really what this was all about. ICSR for the win!
> Proof
Go shoot level 4 plate with .270 Weatherby mag from 25 yards. Or by Big Army's own admission in their big press conference where they announced acceptance, and when questioned on this issue, they said it was about "more energy on the target" rather than pen.
>Go shoot level 4 plate with .270 Weatherby mag from 25 yards.
are you really comparing a sporting round to a military HV round?
2 years ago
Anonymous
You can go watch videos of people taking handloaded M2 AP rounds handloaded in .300 win mag cases and still and having IV plates stop it.
If a 168 gr 3200ft/s single piece hardened steel round won't penetrate, how will a 135 gr 3000ft/s composite round with only a hardened tip do better?
2 years ago
Anonymous
To be fair M2 AP is shit.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I haven't seen what they are planning for their AP round, but they seem to have something cooked up, since they required a 6.8mm round going whatever velocity.
Tungsten or tungsten carbide penetrators are light-years ahead in capability over a steel penetrator.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Beyond the silliness of thinking about relying on Chinese supplies of tungsten to defeat the Chinese, the AP round is so fricking expensive it will only be available in limited quantities, so once again, the average infantryman will be firing rounds incapable of defeating level IV armor.
And if we're talking about AP ammo we shouldn't even be talking about level IV, but the plates beyond that. Stopping a M993 tungsten is what a XSAPI plate from 2009 could do.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It's only expensive right now because of the initial bid.
Everyone has to ramp up new tooling
The price will decrease with time, as more companies can actually compete in the bid
2 years ago
Anonymous
7.62 ADVAP has been in production for years and ramped up to the millions, it's still a crazy expensive round.
>but the plates beyond that
no one even issues that sort of armor lol. russia have HAVE it but its just like their other fancy tech, they only have a handful of them.
The US has not issued it because the tungsten threat never appeared, but it mass produced a frick ton of XSAPI plates overnight and still makes new ones for every plate revision it's done. Issuing a new plate is way faster than issuing a new rifle.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>The US has not issued it because the tungsten threat never appeared, but it mass produced a frick ton of XSAPI plates
yes, because we have infinite money
2 years ago
Anonymous
>but the plates beyond that
no one even issues that sort of armor lol. russia have HAVE it but its just like their other fancy tech, they only have a handful of them.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yes. Do you think m193 pops level 3 plates better than Winchester white box 55gr FMJ because an E1 fired it? .270 Wby Mag has comparable mass and greater velocity than 6.8 out of 13" barrels. Unless you're making your bullets out of tungsten, you're not penning plates any better with a slower round.
But if we're just back to using tungsten, then why did we need a 80k+ pressures?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>13" barrels
2 years ago
Anonymous
6.8x51 is ballistically like hot end 270 win from a 22" barrel.
Now to be fair if the military round gets some AP stuff with a nice Tu penetrator, it might work.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Well the "Special Purpose" round at like $20 a shot better have SOMETHING in it that makes it worth that cost.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Shit, might be some sort of API, or Explosive AP at that much per round.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Pretty similar to .338 AP price.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Civilian price is always worse for AP
Mil could probably get that in contract for at least half.
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's LEO purchase price, no one sells AP to civilians online.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yes they do.
As long as there's never been a "pistol" in that caliber you can buy it as a civilian.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Legally sure, i've never once found a shop that would actually do it unless you're good buds with the owner or greasing some palms somewhere or have an LEO buddy willing to buy them for you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Link a single source to buy please
2 years ago
Anonymous
The $20 dollar per round price tag is for the initial order(s), to cover the cost of tooling. They might be bullshitting, but they claim that once production has ramped up it will cost less per round than our current tungsten AP, which is around 6 dollars per round.
>its not powerful enough to go through modern armor
Neither is 277 fury
That's when you pull them M80A1's out of your ass and stick them is the spicy hybrid casing. Shit weighs as much as the .277 fmj round with a larger bore diameter so if it works like any other parent chambering being opened up a tad bit it should push ~3100-3200 fps
Though they could do the same copper bullet with steel penetrators tip thing with the 277. probably gonna weigh a hundred grains and going tremendously faster but the military is going to Elmer Fudd and handicap the cartridge by using less powder to make it perform just like the standard ball round for some stupid reason along the lines of weight savings to justify it so they can have their name in the history books
>mfw america doesn't need to defeat china and russia's nonexistent body armor, but inadvertently engineered a way for china and russia to defeat american body armor
the military-industrial complex has finally gone too far
Imagine thinking China has the technical capabilities to produce rifles capable of the same performance while still doing it cheap enough to have them enter common service without every other gun exploding in some poor PLA peasant's hands on round number 1.
idk, the chinese have decent manufacturing, all it requires is decent quality control.
luckily they don't even need to do any of that when they have an economy and social system that hasn't completely been hollowed out over the last 40 years.
Never. They flat out won't accept it, this is nothing more than MIC frickery. >M16 da greatest rifle ever
NOBODY ADOPTED IT. >M193
NOBODY ADOPTED IT.
You're going to see FN or HK or even Beretta come out with something that shits all over .277 and the US is going to scramble to replace it or be completely isolated from supplies.
>So when will the rest of NATO use it
Probably in about the same timeframe it took for them to adopt the 5.56, which is about less than 50 years i guess since NATO countries only started adopting 5.56 during the late 1970s and only finished up a few years ago >Russia and China make their copies?
Depends on how useful it turns out to be, Russia only adopted the 5.45 a decade after the US adopted the 5.56 and the Chinese took and extra decade to adopt the 5.8
>So when will the rest of NATO use it
Hopefully never. Hopefully they've learned to completely disregard whatever moronic shit the US is doing with small arms.
Bait thread
but since i'm already replying, if it is to be a NATO standard it probably wont happen for another 10-20 years. As for chinese/russian copies, honestly I doubt russia will anytime soon, China might in the next 3-5 years just as a propaganda thing, but I doubt either country would be able to field a system in the short term that could utilize an 80k PSI rifle cartridge.
Chambers can handle 80k no problem.
Cases couldn't, hence the fricky case.
chambers and barrels can barely, but they're not exactly designed for that type of pressure in regular operation.
They're designed to run ~55-65k PSI.
No it's fine. Recoil impulse and velocities have nothing to do with chamber pressure, throat erosion is dictated by case capacity/bore diameter, the new round is about the same amount of overbore as .270 win, which isn't great, but not even as bad as 6.5cm or 6.5x55
Could taurus reliably make good enough chambers?
Probably not, but plenty of companies can.
Good chance china won't be relevant at all in this decade or the next
I think it’s kind of moronic honestly. Why couldn’t they just make the AR-10 the official weapon of the US Army and call it a day? What’s wrong with 7.62? Also, I find it kinda dumb that the Marines and the Army, two branches that work closely with one another, did not coordinate on selecting a uniformed round so logically problems wouldn’t occur. Idk tho.
>Why couldn’t they just make the AR-10 the official weapon of the US Army
the MCX pattern is much better suited for military use than the AR-10, all the wear areas are replaceable and a SSGP system is cleaner than DI.
>What’s wrong with 7.62?
its not powerful enough to go through modern armor
> It's not powerful to get through modern armor [i.e. level 4 plate]
Neither is 6.8. But hey, no more overmatch on random fireteams away from the platoons 240s from a random goat fricker with a PKM, which was really what this was all about. ICSR for the win!
>Neither is 6.8
proof?
>That sounds gay
sorry that logistics matter more than cool features or aesthetics
Logistics are gay and so are you
> Proof
Go shoot level 4 plate with .270 Weatherby mag from 25 yards. Or by Big Army's own admission in their big press conference where they announced acceptance, and when questioned on this issue, they said it was about "more energy on the target" rather than pen.
>Go shoot level 4 plate with .270 Weatherby mag from 25 yards.
are you really comparing a sporting round to a military HV round?
You can go watch videos of people taking handloaded M2 AP rounds handloaded in .300 win mag cases and still and having IV plates stop it.
If a 168 gr 3200ft/s single piece hardened steel round won't penetrate, how will a 135 gr 3000ft/s composite round with only a hardened tip do better?
To be fair M2 AP is shit.
I haven't seen what they are planning for their AP round, but they seem to have something cooked up, since they required a 6.8mm round going whatever velocity.
Tungsten or tungsten carbide penetrators are light-years ahead in capability over a steel penetrator.
Beyond the silliness of thinking about relying on Chinese supplies of tungsten to defeat the Chinese, the AP round is so fricking expensive it will only be available in limited quantities, so once again, the average infantryman will be firing rounds incapable of defeating level IV armor.
And if we're talking about AP ammo we shouldn't even be talking about level IV, but the plates beyond that. Stopping a M993 tungsten is what a XSAPI plate from 2009 could do.
It's only expensive right now because of the initial bid.
Everyone has to ramp up new tooling
The price will decrease with time, as more companies can actually compete in the bid
7.62 ADVAP has been in production for years and ramped up to the millions, it's still a crazy expensive round.
The US has not issued it because the tungsten threat never appeared, but it mass produced a frick ton of XSAPI plates overnight and still makes new ones for every plate revision it's done. Issuing a new plate is way faster than issuing a new rifle.
>The US has not issued it because the tungsten threat never appeared, but it mass produced a frick ton of XSAPI plates
yes, because we have infinite money
>but the plates beyond that
no one even issues that sort of armor lol. russia have HAVE it but its just like their other fancy tech, they only have a handful of them.
Yes. Do you think m193 pops level 3 plates better than Winchester white box 55gr FMJ because an E1 fired it? .270 Wby Mag has comparable mass and greater velocity than 6.8 out of 13" barrels. Unless you're making your bullets out of tungsten, you're not penning plates any better with a slower round.
But if we're just back to using tungsten, then why did we need a 80k+ pressures?
>13" barrels
6.8x51 is ballistically like hot end 270 win from a 22" barrel.
Now to be fair if the military round gets some AP stuff with a nice Tu penetrator, it might work.
Well the "Special Purpose" round at like $20 a shot better have SOMETHING in it that makes it worth that cost.
Shit, might be some sort of API, or Explosive AP at that much per round.
Pretty similar to .338 AP price.
Civilian price is always worse for AP
Mil could probably get that in contract for at least half.
That's LEO purchase price, no one sells AP to civilians online.
Yes they do.
As long as there's never been a "pistol" in that caliber you can buy it as a civilian.
Legally sure, i've never once found a shop that would actually do it unless you're good buds with the owner or greasing some palms somewhere or have an LEO buddy willing to buy them for you.
Link a single source to buy please
The $20 dollar per round price tag is for the initial order(s), to cover the cost of tooling. They might be bullshitting, but they claim that once production has ramped up it will cost less per round than our current tungsten AP, which is around 6 dollars per round.
The letter for tungsten is W
>Tu
God help us.
>NATO clones and adopts PKM.
PKM is a pretty good LMG.
That sounds gay
>its not powerful enough to go through modern armor
Neither is 277 fury
That's when you pull them M80A1's out of your ass and stick them is the spicy hybrid casing. Shit weighs as much as the .277 fmj round with a larger bore diameter so if it works like any other parent chambering being opened up a tad bit it should push ~3100-3200 fps
Though they could do the same copper bullet with steel penetrators tip thing with the 277. probably gonna weigh a hundred grains and going tremendously faster but the military is going to Elmer Fudd and handicap the cartridge by using less powder to make it perform just like the standard ball round for some stupid reason along the lines of weight savings to justify it so they can have their name in the history books
Yes it can.
The military literally designed a round that could, then had the trials for a gun to work around their parameters.
Whatever those filthy Portuguese commies use as a rifle is officially gay and shit
Including the AR-10
so we're back to battle rifles but the twist this time is magnum battle rifles
>mfw america doesn't need to defeat china and russia's nonexistent body armor, but inadvertently engineered a way for china and russia to defeat american body armor
the military-industrial complex has finally gone too far
Imagine thinking China has the technical capabilities to produce rifles capable of the same performance while still doing it cheap enough to have them enter common service without every other gun exploding in some poor PLA peasant's hands on round number 1.
idk, the chinese have decent manufacturing, all it requires is decent quality control.
luckily they don't even need to do any of that when they have an economy and social system that hasn't completely been hollowed out over the last 40 years.
Never. They flat out won't accept it, this is nothing more than MIC frickery.
>M16 da greatest rifle ever
NOBODY ADOPTED IT.
>M193
NOBODY ADOPTED IT.
You're going to see FN or HK or even Beretta come out with something that shits all over .277 and the US is going to scramble to replace it or be completely isolated from supplies.
>from supplies
Eurogay, we are your supplier.
The shit you guys make is contractually obligate by NATO. We make 1000x the shit europe does
joo vill take ze 277.. Und israelite vill like et.
Are the 277 fury bullets CNC made?
yeah
>So when will the rest of NATO use it
Probably in about the same timeframe it took for them to adopt the 5.56, which is about less than 50 years i guess since NATO countries only started adopting 5.56 during the late 1970s and only finished up a few years ago
>Russia and China make their copies?
Depends on how useful it turns out to be, Russia only adopted the 5.45 a decade after the US adopted the 5.56 and the Chinese took and extra decade to adopt the 5.8
>So when will the rest of NATO use it
Hopefully never. Hopefully they've learned to completely disregard whatever moronic shit the US is doing with small arms.
Its not like China will be able to make a good copy, and Russia will have all of the money for the bullets stolen by Putin.
There’s no way NATO will adopt this. Hell, I doubt the other branches of the US military will adopt it. The Army has gone full moron.