Why is the 6gauge wire going to my shed on a 30amp breaker? Isn't that pointlessly limiting or am I missing something
Electricity is a ghost
Why is the 6gauge wire going to my shed on a 30amp breaker? Isn't that pointlessly limiting or am I missing something
not a sparky, but maybe room for error, so the breaker trips befor the wire melts
i thought those were the amps accounting for the 80% max, like the 14 gauge wire is whats in the wall on a 15 amp breaker afaik
the run is right around 47-52' , there a good chart or something i can use?
https://www.southwire.com/calculator-vdrop
Soooo I don't get it, unless I'm fricking moronic and measuring the gauge of the wire wrong. With the shielding the wire is ~6.4mm stranded copper, which according to google is 6 gauge
so according to this the run can be 3 times as long as it is, and be 55 amps just fine which is almost double the current circuit.
What am I missing? it's not like the breakers are more expensive so why was the choice of 30 made?...hell on Amazon right now a 30 is fricking more expensive than a 45
whenever you see maximums for wires they are almost always taking in to account how hot the wire will get for that amperage and distance.
I had an electrical panel installed on a shed, the quote was for aprox 125ft of 6AWG rated at 60 amps. I have 4 20 amp breakers installed and a 50 amp 240 outlet.
on any given day I never draw more than 25 amps and if I did welding I would just turn off everything else.
It's because you only have 2 15amp circuits in the garage
At the time, it would have been a waste of money to put in anything bigger
Also, if the neutral or ground is smaller, that's also why
Distance loss
maybe the guy had 6 gauge lying around...maybe the power was already shit at the box and 3% drop was still too much. if you dont like it, just give it to a methhead to scrap
I get 239 at the shed, it's not about not liking it I'm trying to figure out if I'm missing something as to why it's set up like this because otherwise i'm swapping that b***h to a 50amp
i would do that. its weird to run a line to a detached building and only have it be 30a. dont know why and and dont care. bump it up to 50 though. as long as you match the breaker to the wire size its safe. you also don't really start calculating voltage drop on high voltage wires until over 100ft. theres a chart for it for sure.
Just to double check because I'm fricking moronic
6.4mm WITH insulation is 6 gauge correct?
Maybe.
Measure the bare wire only. If you have insulation you should be able to simply read the info.
i don't know. i don't use mm. i just read what is printed on the wire or what the tag says at the store. maybe snip a piece off and go to home Depot to compare. or look it up. i found this
Insulation thickness varies alot for different types of cables.
AWG and mm2 generally refer to just the conductor (copper) without the insulation.
Normally the best way to determine it is to check the cable itself, might be printed on. Or to measure the copper conductor itself.
I wouldn't trust it by just measuring the outside insulation.
no. different insulation types have different thicknesses. You need to look at the cross-sectional area of the copper.
An easy way of doing that is to take a wire stripper and figure out which hole just fits over the copper without cutting any. Then look at the gage on the stripper for that hole.
the wire size should be printed on the insulation.
>I get 239
The point of voltage drop is that it occurs under load. Measure it with the table saw, the space heater and the air compressor kicking in at the same time. You can run telephone wire for miles and it will also show 239V, but you won't even power a lightbulb with it.
Could be because of the devices on the far end. The breaker has to be the weakest link. What is the sub-panel in the shed rated at? Could be they ran 6g but only installed a 30A rated panel (which still seems a bit odd, but it allows for future expansion without having to re-run the feeders).
Look up voltage drop.
>why 6?
Probably the only thing he had on the van that day
>why 30?
Probably the only thing he had on the van that day
>gauge
fricking mutts and their stupid units
whoever put the 30amp breaker in had no clue what they were doing?
No idea but I swapped the 30A breaker for a 50A in mine to run the plasma cutter and compressor. Nothing blew up
Ok I just realized, there's only 3 wires ran to the shed., white, black, and ground.
It's 240, and he had the neutrals and grounds bound together in the sub panel.
Isn't that dangerous af or am I wrong?
>Ok I just realized, there's only 3 wires ran to the shed., white, black, and ground.
Pretty sure the only place the neutral and ground are supposed to be bonded is at the main panel. Someone will probably chime in and tell me I'm wrong.
Dangerous? We will let the electricians chime in on that one.
Also You might need to run a grounding rod there at your outbuilding... Once again not an electrician.
That's what I thought, as far as the grounding rod goes though, wouldn't that be taken care of from the ground going back to the main panel? I have no actual idea.
Side note, the wire is 7 strand and each strand is 1.6mm in diameter, which would be the equivalent of a solid wire at 4.23mm diameter (at least mathematically. I don't know if wire works that way)
So given Google charts this is indeed 6 gauge wire so at least I know that much.
>Pretty sure the only place the neutral and ground are supposed to be bonded is at the main panel.
At the first disconnect, which is usually (but not always) the main panel
You have no ground. Neutral and ground should not be bonded at the panel. Putting a ground rod in is not a source of ground because it still needs to be bonded to your neutral/ground at the main panel. Dangerous because you will get a buzz anytime you touch a device with a grounded chassis.
Lethality of the buzz depends on many factors. Usually it's just annoying.
Can you explain to me how I don't have a ground if the ground is going all the way back to the house?
Like I believe you. I just don't understand it.
In my brain I see the ground going from the outlet connecting to the bus bar which is also connected to the ground from the supply which then goes all the way back to the ground at the house.
If you have 240v but only black white and bare/ground you don't have a ground. The ground is being used as neutral which isn't legal, worse it's being shared as ground/neutral if that sub panel had them bonded together.
Assuming he didn't do something absolutely crazy like putting one of the hots on the bare copper and keeping white as neutral/ground.
This was the panel before I took what was left of it out
Yes it looks like white and black were both your hots for 240 so the ground conductor in the wire was for your neutral/ground.
The cable should be replaced with one with enough conductors to have a neutral and ground. It's probably not in conduit but you could tug on it and see if the cable moves.
If you want to be totally sketchy, I'm not you're mama, and what you got sort of works, buts it's dangerous. It wouldn't pass code either but it would be slightly less shitty with a ground rod (probably 6 bonded together) , and set that up as the ground for the panel/that building, and keep the 'ground' conductor from ypur underground cable for the neutral bar, and use only gfci breakers.
rip that shit out and put in this
I'm too poor to be ripping out wires that work just fine, I got a new $30 sub panel and hooked it up as the other one was as a temporary measure until I figure out how to unmoron this thing.
Not running shit right now so tossed all the lights on one breaker, got some more ordered right now.
Had to bond the neutral bus to get the lights on, so it's basically how it was before for now.
You also want cable glands for all those cables going into the panel. They're cheap.
I don't actually expect your conduit there to actually be conduit. That's probably just a riser to get through the concrete footer.
Yah they are on my list for when I'm out next week. I was also going to just grab some pvc to connect the bottom because autism.
I should note there's no concrete, it's a shed on blocks
If the hole is 0.86" what size is that? 3/4"?
>If the hole is 0.86" what size is that? 3/4"?
Yes.
Is there enough conduit above ground for you to couple some more conduit to it? If it were my personal shed I would try and run the conduit all the way up to the sub panel and into the box that way the big wire isn't exposed and harder to damage.
Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about doing with the PVC. From what I'm seeing they used direct burial wire but ran it inside of PVC.
I was also going to drill a new hole and put it over under the frickin box because that pisses me off when I'm trying to sweep.
7/8ths is .87 moron
3/4 is .75 you know 75% of 1 inch moron
>He thinks there are 7/8 knockouts
The absolute state of diy
Kek I was just waiting for the reply to come
Anon was 110% sure it wasn’t 3/4” conduit that was going in there. These are the people who make the internet fricking useless.
This has to be bait... You're not really that moronic are you?
Looks like you learned something today.
Texas, California or Florida?
Texas
So, what would be the easiest way to fix this situation?
Would it be running another 6 gauge individual wire through the same underground pipe and attaching that as a neutral?
Would it be converting it to a 120 supply to the panel or some shit?
Adding one wire is really shitty/ probably impossible. Maybe you could pull out the whole thing (replace it with mule tape when you pull it out, eg tie the mule tape onto one end and pull out the other) then pull it back with the extra conductor.
Even this probably isn't right and you're supposed to use one cable that's got it all under one sheath.
I just had a run done about 1 year ago and they ran 4 wires. 2 hots a neutral and ground. through underground conduit.
I had the same thing done about 10 years ago at my old house and they did the same.
>If he pulls in red he would have black,red,white,and ground
yeah and if he puts the correct tape color on the end of the wire he's good.
pics of sub panel
you paid someone to do that? seriously?
Frick no I moved into this house a few months ago.
all right so the issue is what type of wire is it. IF you can identify it (should be printed on it somewhere) then it can either take 55 or 65 amps.
either way run a ground wire through the conduit. watch a couple recent youtube videos on how to wire a sub panel and call it a day.
nothing in modern code makes much sense even with videos on youtube explaining it.
shit that was code 10 to 15 years ago is now not code, but is grandfathered in. so that makes it code but don't do it because not code.
clear?
He should run a red insulated wire, not a ground. The ground in his existing cable is bare and not suitable for use as a neutral.
If he pulls in red he would have black,red,white,and ground
>He should run a red insulated wire, not a ground.
when I said ground I meant green insulated wire.
He can't use the bare copper in his other cable as anything except ground. It's not insulated. His existing cable is black white and bare copper
Therefore add a red. Black would be fine but taping it red would be helpful.
Pulling a ground/green would be dumb because he already has a ground that can't be repurposed.
yeah I think you aren't understanding anything I said.
Ok explain why he would run a green ground when there's already an unshielded ground ran to the sub.
Could you add another black and it be code or does it need to be red?
You can add black and it's fine. Iirc even white would be okay but you need to tape it all black in the boxes. Red tape is better here because you're showing it's a different leg than the black
Found some discounted red compared to the store on eBay so all good.
Will run it when it gets in. I'll prob just use the red as the neutral due to wire length, will fit in the box tremendously better... idk
If you use it as neutral then put white tape on all of it that's going to be visible in the box
>Isn't that dangerous af or am I wrong?
It might be dangerous. It’s probably fine. It is, however, incorrect and easy to fix
after reviewing all your posts, whoever did that panel only put in a 30 amp breaker because that was probably all they needed.
So good news, it's actually in conduit.
I'm not sure how it actually goes to the house. I guess the condo it goes to under the foundation and then up the wall to the electrical box?
So I think I've lucked out because the condo it goes straight from the box all the way to inside the shed. So theoretically I should be able to just shove wire straight down this hole until it pops out of the shed right?
I assume I need to use direct burial rated wire though because there's going to be condensation inside the conduit right?
The wire coming up through the conduit pictured is not the same as the 8-2 or 6-2 you have in your shed. You either have a jbox somewhere in line or that's a different conduit.
Oh shit this anon is right. Why isn't it the same romex coming out that conduit into your main box? What the hell?
Yah ngl I didn't notice that at all. Maybe it's spliced in the wall or something? Who the frick knows.
My random guess would be that they ran this thicker shit in the underground part and then ran out of fricking wire and then just spliced three regular wires in somewhere
It could still just be a stub of conduit to protect the wire out of the ground and end past that sweep bend... You never really know with these sort of things. If it is actually direct burial wire then I bet it got direct buried without conduit for most of the run...
I shoved 30 ft of fish tape down the hole with no resistance, that combined with the whole coming out at the bottom of the main, I'm pretty certain.
Sparky here. If someone went to the trouble of getting a 90 on a piece of PVC, 9/10 chance they ran it all the way in PVC. Don't send a metal fish tape into a live panel if you don't want to die. If you can't turn off the panel, send it from the part where it has power, to the part where it doesn't. You don't necessarily need an insulated fish tape, but it's not a bad tool to have.
If you want to run it up to the bottom of the box in PVC you'll need a PVC male adapter, or male connector. Screws into the box in the same knock-out that you have already knocked out. If you look here
you'll notice that piece of plastic that the surrounds the connector says 3/4 on it. That's called a PB, or plastic bushing. You need all three to complete this task, and a heat gun if you want it to look nice. Be careful, PVC burns very quickly. You could realistically do this for about $10-15 depending on the region of the country you're in.
If the PVC goes from point A to point B, you don't need to get direct burial wire. You just need THHN 8 AWG. I don't really see why, assuming that you're right, it was 6 AWG. Your voltage drop won't really matter until you hit the 200 foot mark for that low of amperage.
Thanks for the advice man. I ordered 100ft of 6 Awg THHN and I'll in a week when it gets here. In the meantime, I'll go ahead and get the top part to hold the romex and PVC to make it look less shitty.
Also going to replace the lights with some linked lighting because it fricking pisses me off how shitty this looks.
Like I knew it's a shed but holy shit have some standards.
I don't understand why they chose to put the PVC where it is and not directly under the box. I'll chalk it up to moronation idk.
And I'm not 100% sure that it's 6 gauge because I don't have wire strippers to measure it, and I didn't want to clip anymore of the wire to get a direct across measurement, but it is composed of seven strands and each strand is 1.6 mm in diameter.
lenght of run has a lot to do with it , also you can upgrade too
I’m redoing my garage, I’m at the part where I’m tearing out the ceiling. I made a diagram of the whole space as it stands, and I thought Anon might be interested. It’s 1”:2’ scale. The dotted line in the middle is where the ceiling ends, hence the question marks. After I get the whole ceiling tore out I’ll update it
I ran underground 4 gauge once because it was the end of a spool and on sale.
Finished until the new wire comes in and I can unbond the neutrals. Got everything set up to just run the wire through
I think I did a pretty good job for my first time
I have the neutral bus bonded to the case until the new wire gets in. It's been that way for better part of a decade so I'm not for seeing any major problems. I'm just not going to run power tools. But at least I have a lighting.
i'm not a professional but how do you have power? isn't the white suppose to be attached on the right side?
>i'm not a professional but how do you have power?
correct you are not a professional.
>I don't know how it works either
No, you run 240 to sub panel, 2 hots 1 neutral. In this case the neutral bus is bonded to the case aka ground bar. It's talked about up in the thread, I'm keeping it as it was previously (bonded) until the new wire comes in and I can run a proper neutral.
you're correct if OP used the white wire as his neutral, which would have been the smart thing to do until he got a 3rd wire, but he's using his ground as a neutral. both the large white wire and the small black wire are acting as hot wires. see the small green screw head on the same bar that the smaller white wires are going to? that means that bar is tied to the box, which is grounded.
OP's current setup is a fire hazard
While I agree 100%, I will say 3rd wire is literally going to be ran within 72 hours. And it's been wired that way for 8 years
Bit late now but I don’t see any 240 circuits in your subpanel. That means you could’ve just swapped the wires in your main box to be the right colors (white neutral, black hot, bare ground) and only had 120V going to your subpanel. Then the additional wire would add the 2nd leg to make 240V. Would’ve been very easy and essentially been up to code.
Regarding the 2 kinds of wire, you may find surprises within the conduit. That may be why the breaker is of less amperage than what you think is 6 gauge wire can carry.
Been doing some subpanel work myself for a basement finish project. There were 2 outlets in the entire basement. Now there are like 18. And things that are supposed to be on dedicated circuits are (dishwasher, garbage disposal, fridge, washer)
I used 12 gauge wire for the 15A circuits because why not. A 250’ roll difference in cost was like $50 and I’m saving like $5k by doing it myself. No harm in over sizing the wire. I needed the circuit count far more than I need amps. Dryer is 4-5 kW, stove/oven is 3-4, everything else combined never exceeds 2.5ish.
You can see the 50A breaker in top right which is where the panel is fed. 10’ of 6 gauge wire feeding that
There will be a need for 240 as im moving my welder in there
funny enough it was actually 1/2" knockouts, because that makes sense thanks sparkies
>buy 3/4" because closest size to the 0.87
>sorry champ, 0.84 is the TRADE SIZE 1/2
big white wire and the big black wire*