How does a society best go about reintegrating large amounts of veterans (let's say 100k+) after a large scale conflict? Vietnam vets are notorious for being traumatized schizos but if that's the case why did WW1/WW2 vets seemingly do better post-war? Ukraine will be an interesting case study tbh
>Ukraine will be an interesting case study tbh
>Ukrainian veterans
Come home victorious enjoying the prosperity bequeathed upon them by a civilized world.
>Russian veterans
What veterans? lol
>we're nothing like reddit
>you think we post propaganda here? lol ok
Black person
>Come home victorious enjoying the prosperity bequeathed upon them by a civilized world
People after WW1/2 went back to work rebuilding their countries. Vietnam created a bunch of schizos because during the 70s a lot of cities on the East Coast like New York were in the shitter economically. So these people came back traumatized, became unemployed and also got shit from hippies who thought they ate babies in 'Nam.
In the Rama trilogy warriors from the octospider race were terminated after the war, a fact that was understood from the beginning. I wonder if people would vote for war knowing that these men didn't sign up to risk their lives, but to end them?
Rama isn't even a trilogy. It has four books, a tetralogy.
>Vietnam vets are notorious for being traumatized schizos but if that's the case why did WW1/WW2 vets seemingly do better post-war?
WWII veterans in most countries returned into economic prosperity or at least in relative terms due to post war economic boom and rebuilding after the war. They had stable personal economics. That alone kept in engaged in society. Also psychiatric issues were much more of a taboo and that applies to suicide as well. People just didn't talk about veterans that returned fricked up from the front lines, I'd assume frick load of fricked up veterans simply drank themselves to death in couple decades following the war or offed themselves. Lot of them were likely institutionalized as well as mental institutions were a thing. They didn't have mental heath care as we know it now, so their only therapy was talking shit about war with fellow veterans while drunk.
Six books if you count ones written by Gentry Lee alone.
>Six books if you count ones written by Gentry Lee alone.
I'm going to be honest, bro. I read those books in the 9th grade and my favorite part is girl, you know which one, and you know which paragraph.
>WWII veterans in most countries returned into economic prosperity
Really only true for US and Canada
Rationing continued in the UK well after the war. Food shortages were the norm for a few years after the war on the continent. Recovery doesn’t really take off until the late 1940s. If you were an Italian, Austrian or German veteran returning home it wasn’t easy for a few years. It’s quite possible you have no home, your job may no longer exist or have been taken by someone else. Some of these guys might have been mobilized in 1940 and spent the entire war away from home. It’s a hard adjustment regardless of the economic conditions.
This
If you were from France, Britain, any of the axis powers and especially the Soviet Union and Japan, there was a very high chance you came back to nothing after the war. No home, no job, not unlikely that you've lost family friends etc. If you came to the US or Canada you were definitely living it amazing but the second half of the 40's was no economic boom in many countries. Entire cities were levelled.
And they aren't even good past the first one.
and they were written by a fricking pedophile, what's your point?
Was he, though?
>seemingly
I doubt this is the actually the case, they probably just did a better job pretending pretending everything was fine until suicide/murder/breakdown etc.
>why did WW1/WW2 vets seemingly do better post-war?
Most of the WW2 vets didn't talk about it, at least in my experience. Growing up I had teachers who'd been in Okinawa, Bastonge, glider in Normandy, etc. and they didn't say much. Glider guy was probably the shakiest though. The went to school after the war and settled down to try to live normal lives. Both my grandfathers were in WW2 too, neither of them went to school when they got back though, they just worked
My great grandfather (New Zealander, Egypt campaign) came back from WW1 a different person and also a total pacifist. He was friends with one of the biggest conscientious objectors in NZ to entering WW2 and apparently he was super against it also.
>Post-war calculations indicated that New Zealand's ratio of killed per million of population (at 6684) was the highest in the Commonwealth (with Britain at 5123 and Australia, 3232).
I never got why kiwis were sent to North africa/italy/Greece anyways. Wouldn't it make more sense to team up with the aussies in our pacific backyard?
>I never got why kiwis were sent to North africa/italy/Greece anyways. Wouldn't it make more sense to team up with the aussies in our pacific backyard?
japs entered the war against uk later, kiwis were in the war against germans since 39
Survivor bias. You never had a chance to meet all the guys who killed themselves or died of alcohol poisoning.
yeah, my grandfather (resistance movement) also never talked about it.
(Me)
forgot to mention, he was also hard on my dad, but never drank or sth. he worked as a labourer i think.
Some do
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b***h interviewer should be raped, tortured, shot, and killed
When I was a kid my next door neighbor was an old kind man who'd sit outside all day. Eventually we started to play chess together, actually it was more him teaching me, and me being a kid super interested in history would always ask him about all kinds of stuff. He told me all about his time in Europe at the Hurtgen forest, how cold it was, how truly terrible it was and how he was wounded. He would go on to become some kind of low level administrator in occupied Germany and settle there for a number of years.
Maybe the latter part made it easier for him to tell me these stories. Maybe it was because I was a young dumb kid asking dumb questions and he was already pretty old. Idk. I will say that if I had been in that battle I probably wouldn't have come out so clean from it like he did. You hear all about every little island in the Pacific and then the European campaign is just D-Day, Falaise pocket, Battle of the bulge and then Hitler shoots himself. The whole Siegfried line campaign is totally forgotten
A lot of WW1 and WW2 vets were fricked up too, but people didn't really talk about it and it was kinda swep under the rug on a societal level. Veterans coped by drinking and there was an augmentation in death by alcoholism, suicide and in domestic violence. The difference between WW and Vietnam veterans was that for the former their conflicts were seen as just and they were victorious, unlike Vietnam vets, who were vilified by many. That certainly played a role in how they coped with what they lived
For Ukraine, they'll need 2 things: A lot of psychatrists, and a lot of money to pay those psychatrists and a lot of other people and infrastructure specialized in dealing with PTSD. There's gonna be a lot of work
Ukrainian vets at least have the advantage of having fought to protect their country from a clear existential threat, and will therefore probably enjoy strong support from the population, which itself is used to making up for government shortcomings
Speaking of the civilian population, they too will need psychological support after the war. The bombings and the constant flow of information about the war are bound to leave their mark
The whole point of The Reserves is so soldiers can easily be demobilized and reintegrate back to civilian society with as least friction as possible.
Just look around at the GWOT veterans, they got all the gibs and yet all they do is complain
The problem is that worship is just as bad as derision, but no one's ready to have that conversation about veterans yet.
>but if that's the case why did WW1/WW2 vets seemingly do better post-war
We won those wars, resoundingly. So at least they felt all the fricked up shit they went trough was worth something. That and things like the GI bill that post-ww2 veterans never got an equivalent of. Something more than a "thank you". Pic somewhat related
It's kind of crazy to think now that ODS veterans are at least 50 now, and Vietnam vets are probably close to or older than 70.
>why did WW1/WW2 vets seemingly do better post-war?
Because WW1/2 were seen as wars fought for a just reason, justifying everything the people who fought in them went through.
WW1 was "the war to end all wars", the last crusade of all that was good in the world to end an era of endless war in Europe.
WW2 was the world coming together to stop a force they saw as objectively evil from conquering the rest of the world.
Vietnam was a prolonged slugging match between unwilling draftees and an enemy that you couldn't tell was there half the time all because France had to be an autistic moron and refuse to give up their colonial grip on indochina despite indochina REALLY not wanting to be a French colony anymore.
>WW1 was "the war to end all wars", the last crusade of all that was good in the world to end an era of endless war in Europe.
What sort of bullshit is this, lmao the last time a mayor war took place in europe before the great war was when Napoleon was chimping around, most europeans had already forgot what war was before 1914
>What sort of bullshit is this, lmao the last time a mayor war took place in europe before the great war was when Napoleon was chimping around, most europeans had already forgot what war was before 1914
That's not even remotely accurate, there were several wars after the Crimean war in the mid 1800s to the first world war, and that's before you even think about including the countless violent revolutions.
Even the Russo-Japanese war took place only 10 years prior to WW1.
Looking back no less than 3 years prior to WW1 brings up the Italians and Turks killing 10s of thousands of troops in a spat next to no one even remembers now.
This was before WW1 made "millions must die" the norm for conflicts.
Pre-WW1 Europe was a blood soaked violence orgy that climaxed in a war that killed millions.
>Crimean War
An purely imperialistic struggle, also took place in Russia so it does not matter
>Russo-Japanese
Japs vs non-humans, and it didn't took place in europe
>Italy-Turkish War
A colonial conflict in Libya, even the death toll wasn't that high for 1 year span conflict
>Pre-WW1 Europe was a blood soaked violence orgy that climaxed in a war that killed millions.
The only significant conflict that took place in EUROPE before the great war was the Franco-Prussian War, that was one of the main reasons for France being butthurt over Germany that later on led to WWI, other than that there weren't any real big wars since the times of Napoleon.
>The only significant conflict that took place in EUROPE before the great war was the Franco-Prussian War
First and Second Balkans Wars.
>What sort of bullshit is this, lmao the last time a mayor war took place in europe before the great war was when Napoleon was chimping around, most europeans had already forgot what war was before 1914
1871 doesn't ring a bell for you?
What the frick do you think caused WW1? Does Alsace-Lorraine, Bismarck and the Franco-Prussian war ring a bell?
American education?
>What is the Franco-Prussian War?
>american education
Public perception, as others have mentioned, and the totality of the war make a large difference. WW1 and 2 involved larger chunks of the population. The men who returned from the great wars were part of an enormous community, loose though it was, and their generation effectively determined the future of their nations one way or another.
Vietnam, in particular, was an enormously unpopular war fought by a much smaller % of the population who were practically eaten alive by the anti war crowd when they returned; a bat shit insane reaction by the American public and total divorce of responsibility from consequences, when it comes to the politicians and businessmen who made careers and fortunes from the war.
WW1/2 are actually the exception to this trend, however. If you extend your historical perspective back further it's very clear what the paradigm for a war is: The working class of young men are drained, exhausted and disposed of. Veterans are expected to either not survive their ordeal, serve until they break, or return home to become drunkards and miscreants. The perception of soldiers as an honorable class is a rarity in history, with few periods and places offering any kind of generation to veterans. The elite however, officers, future entrepreneurs and politicians, absorb a great deal of the prestige and spoils of war. They also usually suffer the consequences of a failed conflict, but not to the extent that veterans suffer the ire of society.
These unconscious social pressure valves do exist. Populations respond positively to a decline in competition, and the return of young, unemployed men is recognized automatically as a problem. Vietnam was exceptional in how those responsible escaped retribution to a greater extent than ever before, and I think the unconscious group psyche recognizes this, contributing to the anguish felt by the war's survivors.
This of course, says nothing about the brutality of the war, weapons experimentation, etc.
Veneration* not generation to veterans
>why did WW1/WW2 vets seemingly do better post-war
At least here they didn't. The 50s and 60s saw a lot of violence and manslaughter committed by brutalized and traumatized war vets. There was no help for these people to deal with their experiences back then and the motto was "get a job or starve".
If we had random bar fights here police would send no less than 10 armed men there because there was a high chance some of the involved knew how to kill and had little inhibitions to do so after some drinks.
Many also weren't violent and just drank themselves to death.
>If we had random bar fights here police would send no less than 10 armed men there because there was a high chance some of the involved knew how to kill and had little inhibitions to do so after some drinks.
>Welcome to the Salty Spittoon, how tough are ya?
>Ya' killed 50 men during the war?
>How tough am I?!
>I killed fiddy men!
Biggest problem for Ukraine post war is bringing back all of the people who fled. Almost 6 million (mostly women) left and a vast majority of them will not want to go back after living easy in Western Europe. Hopefully the EU will send them back to help rebuild which I doubt because they want to retain people.
I read someone suggest there could be a class conflict of a kind between the people who come back and the people who served, which would be more difficult to deal with if Ukraine ends the war with a bad deal. Zaluzhny could run for president with the veteran vote.
>class conflict of a kind between the people who come back and the people who served
Probably among the men, however the most important thing is bringing back the young families and young women who fled, which will probably be the hardest thing to do.
Same thing happened after WWI, and again after the USSR fell
most of them will never come back
t. 11 percent of Canada's population
Most of Canada's Ukrainian population is descended from pre WW1 immigration. A ton came after both world wars and the collapse of the Soviet Union because of the amount of Ukrainians already here. It's why we took in all the Ukrainian SS after WW2.
t. Ukrainian Canucks
Anons they are never going back lol
Some will come back immediately.
Some will get a nest egg and then move back.
Many will send money back home even if they stay.
It will be a very complex process.
>Vietnam vets are notorious for being traumatized schizos but if that's the case why did WW1/WW2 vets seemingly do better post-war?
This issue is multi-faceted and more nuanced than I could reasonably approach in the character limit, but here goes: The overwhelming majority of Vietnam vets weren't "traumatized schizos", but regular ass people and most of them just went back to work. This applies to almost all conflicts in all of human history. Being a combat veteran doesn't magically instantly make you into a schizoid. People who were predisposed to end up schizoids certainly aren't helped by combat conditions (and as we've lately learned, generally any stressful conditions overseas). WW1/WW2 vets didn't do better post war as far as mental health issues existing, they simply lived in a time where the economy was better post-war and mental health issues weren't really taken seriously. They had a stable work force to contribute to, and people weren't really willing to talk about how fricked up some of them were when they came home. Alcoholism rates were comparatively sky high in the civilian population to begin with, so when Uncle Ned came home from Italy and drank a gallon a day, nobody batted an eye. IMO, the most practical impact of the war in Ukraine will be a large veteran class who slightly favors other veterans, such as through voting or preferential employment, like what this anon touched on
maybe preferential employment in the public sector, but i doubt that it will be for (non-MIC related) private sector.
their workers will be in short supply anyway.
if this video is to be trusted Ukraine is apparently preparing to enact gun control and disarm the population once the war ends. Which i kind of get where they are coming from but its GAY as frick and they would be better off going full on 2nd amendment absolutists.
FRICK forgot the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uan3v3DhLvo[embed]
if they go 2nd, most of that weaponry will find its way to western europe where it can be put to "good" use - for Bataclan-like terrorist attacks and gang wars.
its mostly pistols and nades with occasional kalashnikov (although that's more difficult to conceal).
those that have jerbs anywhere in the EU simply won't come back to all the corruption that was ukr before the war. especially those with money.
if they do come back, there could be a class conflict, as they have money, no ptsd... and would probably be in a position to exploit the veterans, but they could also be prosecuted, their assets seized... for running away. the former is also likely if zaluzhny becomes president, which he probably would be if Zelensky hadn't canceled the elections this year.
The latter is not an unlikely outcome imo.
there has been a marked increase in marriages in poland, latvia and other countries amond polish men and ukr females, even if the females were married before (they divorced their husbands while they were fighting).
those women will have the most children and will never come back, except as tourists when visiting their family, home city...
You sound underage and not knowing how legal things work (or the world in general)
no, just ESL. it's quite possible that those that fled would face repercussions and asset confiscation is not that far-fetched.
as a bad example, there are articles in the media that US wants to seize russian assets (several 100bn$) and give them to Ukraine. In turn russia has already made a list of western assets it will seize.
>they divorced their husbands while they were fighting
Damn, slavic women are ice cold.
american wives also cheat during the husbands' deployment, divorces are also common, nothing new here.
and what would you do if you went to another, richer country as a refugee and lived a normal life there? they are looking for options to continue living there.
People cheat. It sucks but no nationality or profession has a monopoly on it.
i think ukraine is fricked as a country tbh.
Yeah they are going to need a lot of aid and the "refugees" to be forced to go back to Ukraine when the war ends
>if that's the case why did WW1/WW2 vets seemingly do better post-war?
That's media image. My WWII vet father had PTSD including blackouts. Many did but only talked about it in the << VFW etc posts which were basically bars. They were everywhere after WWII and Korea but membership tanked in the Nam era because the older vets didn't want to imagine a different kind of war and looked down on the Nam vets.
There was an awful lot of GIs with PTSD in the 40s and 50s, it just largely manifested as alcoholism and wife-beating instead of the drug addiction/homelessness we associate with Vietnam.
Veteran suicides were extremely common in 1920s, including among the upper classes.
I also think media optics are a big part of veteran perception (in the US at least).
From the 40's to the early 70's most war films were about WW2, and they were almost uniformly about can-do, gung-ho sorts that see themselves through the bad parts.
After Vietnam, Hollywood fastened on the idea of a pointless conflict full of pointless atrocities, and the broken men that came from it (Green Berets and We Were Soldiers being notable exceptions)
This is also one of the reasons Korea is the "Forgotten War" - there was simply very little media attention on it, despite hundreds of thousands of service-members being involved.
Both media narratives shaped both how veterans were perceived and how the wars/warriors were remembered.
Oh, and let's not forget your mileage will vary: If you were, say, a Greek Resistance fighter or a Latvian soldier from WW2, you might have very different post-war experiences!!!
>propaganda determines post war outcomes
grim, but true
Some veterans from WW2 also did not have smooth sailing:
One county in Tennesse had its soldiers come home only to find out some of the sleazy a-holes that stayed behind had turned the place into their own private fiefdom of corruption.
There was...*ahem*...a FIREFIGHT!!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)
believing that you went through it all for a right cause helps a fair bit
I have no data and I made it up, but it's a possibility
TZD
The Hell's Angels were created by WW2 veterans though, anon.
US did pump a lot of money (currency, not equipment) into it and that money has to go somewhere (most of it offshore though).
Vietnam vets turned out bad because who would've thought sending people against their will to a war a million miles away then being treated as cold blooded murderers as soon as you got home would frick them up.
Except Ukraine has a future of western investment and economic growth, while Russia has a future of alcoholism and total societal collapse.
The captcha is trying to tell me something, I just don't know what.
bosnia also had the future of western investment and look at them now. (2x higher gdp per capita than ukraine in 2019)
the vietnam vets had a massive horde of moronic hippies screaming that anything that ever wore a uniform was a baby killing monster you dipshit.
doesn't do wonders for stability on top of the bullshit they ran into IN vietnam with the human wave charges and boobytraps.
>why did WW1/WW2 vets seemingly do better post-war?
WW1 veterans made the case for WW2 anon
Ukraine tried to sign trading deals with the EU, which would lead them to switch from subhuman to EU standards on all production, which is what got Russians to ape out in the first place. Every time they were recovering, Russia chimped out. It's like you're too stupid to realize that fighting corruption and exporting in a competitive way requires some fundamental overhauls of the structure of a country which Russia had been preventing.
Ukraine has potential for growth, and no, Ukrainians already got the visa regime lifted and they didn't flood the EU until the war started. Sure, it's not going to be the massive growth of Poland, but it'll happen.
100k isn't that many lol. That's like the annual amount of people getting out of the service in the US every year. WW2 had like 8 million people to reintegrate.
hey, tell us more about the ukraine before the war please. where did you go, to the USA?
>how can ~~*we*~~ deradicalize these people that ~~*we*~~ played as a fiddle to die in fake and gay foreign wars, so ~~*we*~~ could make profit and now they want our heads.
topkek
You really don't know what's coming for you, fedcoat.
t. fat frick basement dweller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Bill
Does anyone else feel some kind of emptiness and sadness when thinking about generations of veterans that died and you won't have a chance to hear at least some of their stories first hand?
I guess it comes from the fact that being in a war is one of the worst experiences one can have, and so many people just dying with those experienced buried with them just feels unfair towards them.
Sorry for rambling, but combat vets will always be fascinating people for me.
there is something I've noticed with people who've seen combat in the armed forces that I've met where their eyes have this weird shine to them, not the thousand yard stare thing per se but more like their eyeballs are almost made of glass. Not lifeless glass though, it's more liquid and emotional. I can't put it into words but yeah, just their eyes have this intense liquid shine to them that feels like its' bursting with emotion even if their facial expression is blank. Have any other anons experienced this in their dealings with the forces?
>t. officer cadet shtibag
Killer
Eyes
And yeah you can tell, theres something that changes in the eyes afterwards, especially if its recent. Perhaps theres an intuition evolved to sense the capacity for violence in someones face and eyes especially.
T oef xii
nam vets returned home toa society that hated them, plus, north american vet care is shit.
ww1 was a giant meatgrinder in a really small area (in europe at least), on the scale of a small village. Ie., the cities were untouched, the countrysides were untouched. the vets returned home to find nothing had changed and indeed no one really knew what they had gone through.
Ww2 has and had massive propaganda. Everyone who came home drowned in pussy for years.
ukraine will be interesting.