Preparedness & self-sufficiency community
I mean, yes, but it would require training the pilots and that would take some considerable time, you'd also have to train maintenance crews and such, and who knows how many of those 93 tornados are actually in flying condition.
Dont train anyone just grant these german pilots an ukranian passport, now they just kuraniqn
You're really over estimating how willing to fight for any cause the krauts are.
I expected it to be lower, I am truly ashamed.
>willing to fight for your country
>Russian Federation - 59%
Heh big fat lie that turned out to be.
I think it would have been closer during a defensive war. Most military aged Russians don't give two fucks about "denazificating" Ukraine, it's mostly pensioners who are high on the Z.
That conflict is going to be cool as fuck.
75% of a billion is 750 million,
89% of 231 million is 205 million,
There isnt really a contest
One paki has got to be worth at least three poo-in-loos, seems like pretty even odds to me
Funnily enough it's almost always India that has redeemed victory in their paki wars
Pakis don't have exactly the best track records against India.
When both sides start throwing nukes around, I don't think numbers will matter
Given that Pakistan is basically a narrow strip along the Indus they'll all enjoying 3.6 roentgens before even half the Indian population does
I guess 2 nukes actually where enough.
>India and Pakistan at the top.
Not surprised. I heard an Indian politician on BBC World Service and a reporter asked him about girls as young as 2 being gang raped by Hindus as they raised Muslim villages. His response was: "but they have raped many, many more. Muslims have invaded in the past, they rape children. One must defend onself."
Couldn't even be brought to say Hindu child rape gangs were bad.
Plus their riots have death tolls larger than many wars because it just becomes Hindu vs Muslim genocide each time.
>it just becomes Hindu vs Muslim genocide each time
Something that needs to be encouraged and helped along in that region. Pakistan in particular needs to be erased for giving refuge & shelter to the Taliban. There's just no fucking forgiveness for that.
No one gives a shit about 9/11 or wants to fight a forever war on their own soil over it
a true dutchman has a mercenary attitude even to his own nation.
Man the Japanese really were mindfucked
That poll is from 2017, American number gotta be at least 20 points lower now
I think it might actually be higher. In 2017 "war" to most Americans meant going to some irrelevant middle eastern shithole and getting blown up by an IED. Nowadays, on the other hand, most people are going to think of Russia or China as the most likely enemy and I think there's both more support for kicking their asses and more of a sense that they present a genuine threat to us or the allies we actually give a shit about.
Biggest load of bullshit I have read in this thread, americas armed forces have now solidly established themselves as dens of homos, trannies and colored mystery meat.
These figures seem out of date.
Crisis really does seem to change how people think.
just pay mercs to fly tornados
>Area 88 x Ace Combat: Eastern Europe edition
Where the fuck do i sign up, buddy?
lmao. They're in an active war right now with the cartels and they do nothing.
>for your country
Means bombing sandmorons and getting crippled by IEDs after decades of it and no real war.
The question should be
>are you willing to fight to defend your country during an invasion
Or something similar.
you think this was is gonna be over in 2 weeks? maybe 2 years. enough time to train and train the crew. ukraine will be getting nato planes anyway, the sooner the better
No, just get foreign pilots. Same for any complex weapon systems. Tanks too. Who cares? Just give them an ukranian passport
Btw this was done in Israel's 1948 war, many pilots went to fly for israel. Not garden gnomes, they did it for the lulz and were treated like kings because everything depended on them.
Why would you waste time training them on an obsolete airframe? just train them on a F-16 that still get's produced instead of something that will be thrown away.
>it would require training the pilots
So better to start now?
Just train them enough so they can fly the plane straight in important targets.
training pilots, training maintainers/mechanics, supplying the maintainers with the test equipment, tools and spare parts to fix broken planes/keep the planes flying.
I doubt the tornado is designed to be fixed by a tractor mechanic with a set of spanners and hammers.
Just ship over thousands of pilots, mechanics, everybody. Give them passports to make it legal, wouldn't want illegal immigrants working for the ukranian ministry of defense
So better start now.
Honestly training pilots to adequate levels won't take too much time. It's war and with high pressure and cut corners it's possible within a few weeks. They're not gonna be the best, but that's fine.
The real issue is maintenance. Traning crews and getting them up to speed will take ages, but can be supplemented by foreign aid and repair stops during that time.
It takes as much time as needed for Supreme commander admiral zelensky to print some passports to foreign pilots and mechanics
You think thats it? Its a whole other tapestry of nightmares. How about fuel? you gonna haul fuel trucks each time? what about replacement parts for the jets parts from computers to other mechanical and electronic , ground equipment for the jets systems and that is just small part of it. Even with foreign aid, it will take allot of logistics planning and time to transport these things, let alone to make sure it keeps running for a war time fighting force.
Realistically such an old platform in German hands I'd be surprised if even a quarter were operational
How poor shape are these in?
Easy solution for West is to deliver US F16s since there are a zillion in good condition (take from the National guard or whatever), but politically a European plane will go down better with everyone.
>How poor shape are these in?
They're currently in service of the German Bundeswehr. So, probably in better condition and with better performance than when they came off the manufacturing line. They're broken in, fully upgraded, tweaked for top performance, begging to be used for their designed purpose: turning vatmorons into red mist.
It's the pilot training that would be a question. I don't know how "easy" it would be to crosstrain on these if a pilot already has training & experience on other platforms.
Let's imagine the F-16 solution, which has generated a lot of speculation for over half a year now. It is strongly rumored that Ukrainian pilots already are being trained on them. Either that's only a rumor or the OpSec on that is seriously tight. I agree that there are about a thousand or more F-16s that could be made available to Ukraine almost instantly, and they are the preferred platform due to numbers & availability of support & parts.
But if piloting an F-16 and a Tornado is similar enough, the possibility would be open to Ukraine having both F-16s and these Tornadoes. I mean, hypothetically speaking in a sunshine daydream. That could open up some seriously interesting possibilities.
I'm very frustrated that Ukraine is not already getting new airpower platforms by the hundreds. Hopefully, it's just tight OpSec and we may suddenly see a few dozen or a few hundred show up in Ukrainian airspace in an unannounced surprise. I don't even care which ones at this point, just that they get them and are able to establish their own no fly zone at will.
>are able to establish their own no fly zone at will
I mean they kinda did that with their SAM units already. The bigger issue these days are Russian bombers launching missiles from the Caspian Sea and MiG-31s hanging around in Russian airspace armed with long-range AA missiles. Unless Ukraine gets something to reliably deal with the Miggers threat their own aircraft won't play much of a role in this conflict.
>They're currently in service of the German Bundeswehr. So, probably in better condition and with better performance than when they came off the manufacturing line.
>I'm a loser that is medically disqualified from military service
I don't think the F16 and Tornado have many systems that they share, I'm a dumbass and I can already point out the rudimentary shit. Single engine vs twin engine, single seater vs two seater, Tornadoes' swing wings, F16's negative stability, and thats not even accounting for shit like avionics, targeting pods, radars
F-16 Wild Weasel and Tornado ECR use the same equipment (jammer and anti-raditation missiles) for SEAD/DEAD
F-16CJ is kinda light for electronic warfare and SEAD plane. It was half replacement for EF-111. USAF wanted F-15G back in the day, but Cold War ended and they had to settle for less impressive F-16CJ. Yep, it was F-15G model because SEAD variants of F-4 Phantom and F-105 Thud were both G models. Gotta continue the tradition, totally worth skipping F. Tornado ECR is more in line with EF-111, EA-6 and EA-18G as dedicated ECM and SEAD plane. F-16CJ is pretty much just the SEAD part.
Why does this shit have to be so political?
why can't we just say "lol, lmao" and ship the ukies 500 strike eagles or something
It's fucking gay
Because the airframes are just the start -
supply test equipment / tools
supply spare parts
supple weapons or adapt the airframes to use weapons the Ukrainians already have in stock
And finally hope that the F-15s can evade/destroy the MiG-31 / R-37 missiles which are keeping the Ukrainian air force pretty much grounded.
Probably would only work if the US would replace them with F-35s immediately which means from their stock. And then there is the problem with qualified pilots. All and all a pipe dream but would be certainly kino if it were to happen.
> Start of introduction for the F-35 into the Bundeswehr is planned for 2028
Well considering, Ukrainian pilots have been training for A-10s since May last year and F16 since November, I don't think they'll be getting Tornados as well.
The bongs just recently retired theirs and surely they haven't been sent to scrapyards yet, that'd be a much better place to get them.
That would actually make more sense even though I don’t know how many hours the bong ones have left in the airframes.
>how many hours the bong ones have left in the airframes
They've already retired theirs, past tense. OP's post is about the German airframes, which are future tense over the next three-ish or so years.
If Tornados have any viability in this situation, collectively gathering all the German and all the UK airframes would provide significant airpower to the Ukies, perhaps a full 100 planes & even plus a few more, but they would be the ones in the best possible condition of all available and the rest would probably be parted out for repairs & maintenance.
That might be worth the total effort & expense if it gave the Ukies such a force for the next three or five years, but it probably wouldn't go past that. It's kind of a dead end that's closer than the F-16 option, which might be good for up to another 20 years.
I love the GR4 but most of the upgrades were for medium level PGM plinking which probably wouldn't work out too well over Ukraine. the IDS is an outdated POS but it still can do the original low level night interdiction mission fine.
Just have to remember to give them high drag bombs since the main lesson from the gulf war was that slavshit missile systems eat shit if you fly at 100ft and use DECM but if you try an over the shoulder toss through a solid wall of unguided AAA fire you will have a bad day. only like 2 Tornados were lost in level flight below 200ft
I should add "at night" as a qualifier since Nicols' Tornado was lost to an Igla flying at low level during the day
Isn't the Tornado kinda bad even when compared to the MiG-29 the Ukrainians are operating right now?
It could launch HARMS properly and Paveways and JDAMs still hurt.
It's more along the line of the Su-24 they operate, just about a generation newer in terms of aircraft design, and several generations ahead in avionics and weapons.
It's a heavy strike/interdiction aircraft, not a "fighter" by any traditional meaning of the word.
comparing a formula 1 racing car to a delivery van
Until the Ukrainian pilots are trained the last airframes will have reached the end of their service life. Probably less than 25 are currently airworthy. On top of it this would be too offensive and hence isn’t going to happen.
As a dual citizen im too old to fight for any of my two countries
40yo here, if shit goes down I'm heading to the local wineries for the nitric acid they use to clean vats. Fuck running around with small arms when I can chill in my shed and give those much younger than me the tools to make a difference.
America should give them F-22's. Why these fat scum are always holding out?
What is your shithole giving the "good" slavs?
Anon if you asked the air force higher ups to choose between killing 40+ million ukrainians or letting a single F-22 get into non-american hands, they would pick killing the ukrainians without even thinking twice.
When it comes to top tier US hardware, fuck 'em all.
may every last parasite Ukrainian leach die a horrible death
Not probable, and I wouldn't recommend it. There are probably more F-16s in storage than there ever were Tornados active.
F-16s are the best option, anything else is not capable, too valuable, or not produced in enough numbers to justify the risk. There are tons of F-16s and tons of spare parts across the globe.
Gripen is a close second due to its unimproved runway capabilities, but again, they're too few in number.
If anything they need a fighter with BWR air to air capability. Strike variants of Tornado don't have anything beyond short range IR-AAM's. Interceptor variant of Tornado can barely be called a fighter as it was strike aircraft put into role as politically convenient stop gap measure. F-16 might be ideal due to numbers, but Gripen has Meteor integrated.
>why can't we just say "lol, lmao" and ship the ukies 500 strike eagles or something
They have built only bit over 500 Strike Eagles in first place and about 200 of those have been exported. USAF and ANG have around 200 aircraft in active service. I'm too lazy to check how many have been lost in accidents, but given that oldest airframes are over 30 years old, some of 'em have been simply flown out of flight hours they can get from airframe. The amount of aircraft in mothballs that could be put on service might be around 30 or so.
>but given that oldest airframes are over 30 years old
Fucking hell this makes me feel old, I remember seeing one up close at an airshow when they were still the hot new shit.
>Fucking hell this makes me feel old, I remember seeing one up close at an airshow when they were still the hot new shit.
There is a reason why F-15EX is being procured. F-15C/D/E need replacement. Last deliveries to USAF were E models in 2001 or 2002. Newest C/D models are almost 40, I'm not sure when they closed C/D production but it was around same time E entered production in mid-80's.
I suppose the question is: Can the F-16 / AIM-120 outrange the MiG-31 / R-37? otherwise you might need something with a bit more reach, like the F-15
yes, please do. 🙂
The Poles didn't even hand over their MiG-29s, why don't they do that first?
Poland might find itself going to war unilaterally against Russia outside of NATO umbrella, e.g. if it looked like Russia was going to take all of Ukraine. They can only spare so much.
is Poland going megalomaniac again like before WW2?
how independent is the Polish army even? shouldn't it accelerate its integration into NATO instead?
Ukraine fad retards thinks that a weapons are like a car or a truck. You can't just give Leopards and Tornados.
Give them soldiers and pilots too.
Go fuck yourself Ukies
germs will never take lead, someone else has to donate jets first
The main issue is that there is very few airfields left in Ukraine. Next is training the pilots will take a month at the very least all while the Russians are going to be trying to destroy them.
>Next is training the pilots will take a month at the very least
More like a year. A pilot requires a minimum number of flight hours before they can even be considered for their first non-training mission. Other people have better estimates, but it's measured in the hundreds of hours, and about the best people can do on an aggressive schedule is about 20 hours a week max. There's lots of non-flight hour time required for training, then there's all sorts of wear and tear and maintenance on the aircraft to try and reach that sort of weekly schedule, more expense, more personnel for all the support required. Most of what I've seen posted around here indicates that six months for a new pilot from scratch. Experienced pilots familiar with similar systems *might* come in around three to four.
Earlier this Summer there were numerous discussions about starting Ukie pilots on F-16s (also A-10s) in June or July so they would be ready by the end of the year. And, we ain't there, not even a hint. It's either not started for anyone or it's one Hell of a Top Sekrit program, zero leaks so far.
I'm just praying that they started several groups of pilots in August or September (at the latest) so that they might support a Spring pushback come March or April. I don't care which airframes, so long as they are equivalent or superior to F-16s.
If Bradley and Patriot training is anything to go by, Uke pilots have done jack shit, apart from what's literally a volunteer group using DCS to train ukies on the A-10 of all planes.
Waste of everyone's time and effort. Just integrate storm shadow onto the NATO mil bus MiG-29s.
Does he realize Germany is going to scrap them no sooner than 2035?
No need to givem Tornados, just givem the old MW1 containers. They are decommissioned because of Ottawa, but still are lying around in depot's, becazse lmao destroying/recycling weapons is expensive. Also givem the hundreds.of Pars-3 they got lying around with some Argus pods. The Ukies will know how to jury rig that shit.
What’s the deal with nations basically giving up on capacities for the rest of the decade instead of the USA sending their national guard shit. Pretty sure nations like Germany and co would even pay for it
Those F-35s aren't going to be ready any time soon, I expect the SEAD/DEAD and ECR Eurofighters to be ready before the F-35s arrive
Too late for Ukraine in all likelyhood
Ukraine is going to lose the sooner you accept this the sooner you can stop being a gay
Tornado is currently the only system Germany has to deliver nuclear weapons.
Germany is not giving up nuclear weapons and decommissioning them before there is some replacement ready.
the tornado is hard to maintain because of the variable wing profile, of all the planes they could give ukraine that is probably one of the worst choices.
also i thought germany was backtracking on the F35 purchase cause they wanted their own indigenous design developed with france.
Eurofighter Typhoons are the main replacement for Tornados.
Germany is not going to share Eurofighter internals with the US to get them certified to carry US nuclear weapons, thus buying US fighters.
> In April 2020, it was reported that the German defence ministry planned to replace its Tornado aircraft with a purchase of 30 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, 15 EA-18G Growlers, and 55 Eurofighter Typhoons.
>In 2022, the German defence ministry announced that 35 Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning IIs will replace the Tornado fleet for nuclear sharing instead of the discussed 30 Boeing Super Hornets.
German air force currently has 38 Tranche 4 Eurofighters on order to replace 33 Tranche 1 Eurofighters
it also has 35 F-35A on order to partially replace the Tornado IDS (of which there are 68)
15 Eurofighter ECR are planned and developed (but not yet ordered afaik) to (partially?) replace 21 Tornado ECR
there's no 1:1 replacement for all Tornados ordered yet, might be more Eurofighters, might be more F-35A
both are multirole and can fulfill the Tornado's tasks
>it also has 35 F-35A on order to partially replace the Tornado IDS (of which there are 68)
>15 Eurofighter ECR are planned and developed (but not yet ordered afaik) to (partially?) replace 21 Tornado ECR
those orders were in the same press release and have the same certainty:
"F-35 Kampfjets werden in Zukunft die nukleare Teilhabe der Bundeswehr sicherstellen, eine Weiterentwicklung des Eurofighters den Bereich elektronische Kampfführung. [...] Die Bundeswehr plant, 35 F-35A und 15 Eurofighter ECR zu beschaffen."
I see people talking how it's matter of training pilots and maintenance crew and providing proper tools and spare parts. And they are right but there one more thing that I dont see anybody talking about.
You see Ukrainie military is still using numerical system in their doctrine. Inheritance from USSR.
All NATO nations however adapted their jets to work with Imperial measurements.
So it's not only matter or traning. All of those Tornadoes, every primary and secondary systems, their weapons, radars, everything will have to be recalibrated to work for Numerical mathematics.
That not a job ypu can do in a day or week. Even trained crew will waste whole month on such taks.
>All NATO nations however adapted their jets to work with Imperial measurements.
is this a joke
I think he's talking about instruments, (former) Soviet and Chinese aircraft are all metric while everywhere else uses feet, knots, and nautical miles. It's not that big of a deal though, plenty of former Eastern Bloc countries switched to NATO-spec aircraft and a bunch did exchange programs after the wall fell without trouble, and warbird pilots go back and forth between systems quite a bit too.
As a pilot, the measurement system used doesn't really matter, you fly planes based on known performance numbers for that specific plane so you just need to know those and they could be completely arbitrary for all it matters. It might cause some communication issues with ground control, since they'll be used to giving distances to enemies etc. in metric, but that can be overcome pretty quickly, and I was gonna say navigation could be a problem too but they'll likely be using GPS maps built into the aircraft or a military EFB like Foreflight and those will be in the correct system.
You may be shocked to hear this but feet is the internationally used reporting standard for altitude, only China and North Korea uses meters IIRC.
Russia/Soviet Union used to, but started switching over to FL in feet in 2017.
Just like Nautical miles and knots are used for distance and speed.
The aeronautical field is a mess of different measuring systems, but at least NM and knots makes sense from a quick on the fly calculation perspective.
It couldn't work because while the Germans "have" 93, maybe a dozen are airworthy while the rest have been used as donors for parts
93 unmaintained piles of scrap with no ordinance and few trainers. What a steal.
speaking of weird fighters for Ukraine its a shame the sea harrier is long dead.
the asshurt caused by a Mig-31 or Su-57 getting blown out the sky by a smol lad with a big radar and 4x AIM-120D would sustain me for so long.
Yes, keep handing Western hardware to the Ukes so Vlad starts launching nukes. DO IT gayS.
With such old jets in German hands the real problem isn't going to be training maintenance crews and pilots but finding any that aren't rusted husks that have long been gutted for parts.
>how about you give us 93 jets
Lmao, how about you pay for them, you rancid cunt?
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