I've been saying piston is hands down the best for a long time but recently i'm starting to think stoner was right.
There's less movement happening on the barrel compared to pistons and the gas going through the bcg provides wonderful results. I'm think if you clean your rifle even somewhat frequently DI is just better
It doesn't make a huge difference but it is consistently quieter because there is no gas block pop so it's at least worth mentioning.
But what stops someone from making a DI system where the recoil spring is contained in the receiver like a SCAR?
I didn't even know that existed until just now, I kinda like it.
If they make an upper with a longer barrel and monolithic handguard/upper I might even buy one...
2 years ago
Anonymous
And if you'd rather have something more in the middle, that's available too.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It looks better dressed up, but doesn't anyone?
2 years ago
Anonymous
It looks better dressed up, but doesn't anyone?
The foxtrop Mike really seems like a huge innovation leap, I'm just really curious how it's reliability will stack up. (Same for those new 556 guns B&T are coming out with)
As stupid as it may sound I think every rifle should be atleast somewhat considered for it's SHTF capability as a metric of overall reliability. If you have to drag the fm15 through a impossible scenerio fallout tier wasteland is it going to fail on you? Because realistically a PSA ar15 is going to see you through just fine. I trust foxtrot Mike's (and B&T)'s build quality and QC, but they are using new proprietary recoil systems which haven't been proven yet.
Will the recoil crack the back of the receiver at 60k rounds? Etc.
2 years ago
Anonymous
While I too love optimizing and justifying purchases, there's no realistic way anyone is going to send more than a few thousand rounds through a rifle in a SHTF scenario. Militaries that sling that much lead waiting for artillery or mechanized support to clear out enemy positions, people skirting around after the collapse of society aren't going to.
It doesn't make a huge difference but it is consistently quieter because there is no gas block pop so it's at least worth mentioning.
But what stops someone from making a DI system where the recoil spring is contained in the receiver like a SCAR?
That would be cool, wouldn't it.
that's what the cmmg dissent is anon
They aren't even the fourth company to do that.
I didn't even know that existed until just now, I kinda like it.
If they make an upper with a longer barrel and monolithic handguard/upper I might even buy one...
Other people sell similar products with longer barrels.
Post source, every test I've seen has showed similar dB levels for piston vs DI, but DI is louder at the ear due to the additional gas coming back through the gas tube.
>additional gas coming back through the gas tube.
This is strictly a result of poorly tuned gas systems.
The problem with suppressed DI systems is that suppression artificially increase dwell time. If you have an AR with a gas system perfectly tuned for the specific suppressor you will be using, you can get it to cycle while outputting the same amount of gas into the receiver as a well tuned unsuppressed DI system. Barrel length, gas system length and gas port size have to be carefully calculated to work with a specific suppressor(or rather the specific amount of dwell time any given suppressor adds, they're almost never the same) and most people don't don't put in the effort required.
Most if not every suppressed DI I've seen (on youtube at least) always has one of two major flaws:
They're using parts designed to be used in a non suppressed DI system
OR
they're using parts that might work for a specific suppressor but they're using the wrong suppressor.
You will often see people use the same rifle to test a large number of suppressors which sounds like a fair way to test them but it can lead to misleading results as the system might only be optimized for one suppressor. >well how do they get these unoptimized systems to cycle if the parts they're using shouldn't be suppressed?
If you thought that, good question. The way people have been brute forcing this is by simply adding resistance to the recoil system either by adding weight to the buffer or increasing spring strength (or maybe both in shorter barrels) to compensate for the extra gas. This solves the cycling problem but it does nothing about the gas and they usually have extremely overgassed guns with extra recoil. It's a really hack-y solution that doesn't solve the core problem.
As Jay from pew science said, you can tune the gun 6 ways from sunday, get it blessed by a shaman, and center it’s chi with crystals...but a super high flow restriction suppressor will still be gas city, usa, population:you with rapid or full auto fire
>but a super high flow restriction suppressor will still be gas city
simply not true, however that might be unavoidable for short barrels where even the longest gas system available is still quite short which is why I would ALWAYS want a piston system on a suppressed sbr
2 years ago
Anonymous
But pistons don’t eliminate gassiness because most of the “gas” is coming back down the barrel...my blowback pcc is gassy with long pistol suppressors because they are high flow restriction
2 years ago
Anonymous
>But pistons don’t eliminate gassiness
I think there's some truth to that gas-city statement you made but I would change it to
short barrel + high flow restriction suppressor = auchwitz(allegedly)
however a piston will still do a better job at directing more out of the gas block so that you get less gas in your face than compared to blowback or DI, but it will still be gassy of course
Welcome, great time for suppressor technology...most quiet 5.56 suppressors meter really high at the ear, oss managed equal muzzle and ear numbers (on the mk18 untuned). The unanswered question by pew science is: can a tuned gun be quieter at the ear than oss...bro science says yes, I’m not saying they are wrong but can’t wait for pew science to confirm...however, if you still wear ear pro, which you should be, does any of it matter...if you want super quiet muzzle get a polonium or rc2, if you want less blowback/cleaner/no tuning get a oss/huxwrx...
2 years ago
Anonymous
>can a tuned gun be quieter at the ear than oss
The answer is yes and I can smith a suppressed DI AR15 better than those LARPing boomers at PEW.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Lol, you don’t know who Jay is do you?
https://pewscience.com/
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yes I do. If I was given 6 months with the resources he has access to I would mog everything he's ever done.
DI was an intentional design choice and for good reason.
Look at M27 failures for confirmation. >inb4 muh underwater Hollywood Navy SEAL >insert amphibious sentry removal >insert boonie cap+waterproof facepaint >insert bucket of water in desert environment for SEALs underwater infil >insert GI Jane b/c diversity >insert "muh wife's name"
I'm usually a long stroke guy till I'm close, then I'll do faster short strokes.
I only directly impinge my anus if I'm having a hard time getting off.
None of them are the best.
They all have their places, except maybe long stroke gas pistons. But hey, that's beside the point.
I've always been partial to short stroke gas pistons for their easy adjustability and simplicity of cleaning, but I own an AK, a Hakim and an FAL.
I wouldn't say the gas system has any real bearing on which I prefer, as I love them all for different reasons.
>Full auto >Short barrel >Suppressed
If you are doing two or all three of these, piston. If you are only doing one of these, Stoner gas. If you think lever delayed blowback is neat, you need to breathe less stoner gas.
I cannot wait until someone designs a 3D printed piston (or gas block) that has a gas delay mechanism that's like a CGS suppressor and also a bleed-off feature like SLR blocks. It can receive a wide variety of forces from the gas port but always pushes the piston rearward at the same velocity. The delay ensures that gasses have time to exit a suppressor.
Nice cope moron.
We both know you weren't talking about metal 3d printing, not that metal 3d printing is even at a stage where making gas blocks and pistons would be economically viable.
DI with no buffer tube, I don't really give a shit about the buffer tube/receiver extension but everyone feels like they need to be without it.
But DI is best >lighter >better balanced >less moving parts
Then again >shits where it eats
Oh well, that really is the only legit argument. It's dirtier, and some people will still knock this like it's anything other than just annoying to clean. They'll ignore the millions of users who have shot thousands of rounds each without cleaning and zero malfunctions.
Yes
I've been saying piston is hands down the best for a long time but recently i'm starting to think stoner was right.
There's less movement happening on the barrel compared to pistons and the gas going through the bcg provides wonderful results. I'm think if you clean your rifle even somewhat frequently DI is just better
oh and DI is more silent when suppressed compared to pistons
I would rather have no buffer tube cause suppressed 5.56 is loud as frick no matter what
It doesn't make a huge difference but it is consistently quieter because there is no gas block pop so it's at least worth mentioning.
But what stops someone from making a DI system where the recoil spring is contained in the receiver like a SCAR?
Yeah that would be cool, di is really awesome, praise be to stoner
that's what the cmmg dissent is anon
I didn't even know that existed until just now, I kinda like it.
If they make an upper with a longer barrel and monolithic handguard/upper I might even buy one...
And if you'd rather have something more in the middle, that's available too.
It looks better dressed up, but doesn't anyone?
The foxtrop Mike really seems like a huge innovation leap, I'm just really curious how it's reliability will stack up. (Same for those new 556 guns B&T are coming out with)
As stupid as it may sound I think every rifle should be atleast somewhat considered for it's SHTF capability as a metric of overall reliability. If you have to drag the fm15 through a impossible scenerio fallout tier wasteland is it going to fail on you? Because realistically a PSA ar15 is going to see you through just fine. I trust foxtrot Mike's (and B&T)'s build quality and QC, but they are using new proprietary recoil systems which haven't been proven yet.
Will the recoil crack the back of the receiver at 60k rounds? Etc.
While I too love optimizing and justifying purchases, there's no realistic way anyone is going to send more than a few thousand rounds through a rifle in a SHTF scenario. Militaries that sling that much lead waiting for artillery or mechanized support to clear out enemy positions, people skirting around after the collapse of society aren't going to.
That would be cool, wouldn't it.
They aren't even the fourth company to do that.
Other people sell similar products with longer barrels.
Post source, every test I've seen has showed similar dB levels for piston vs DI, but DI is louder at the ear due to the additional gas coming back through the gas tube.
>additional gas coming back through the gas tube.
This is strictly a result of poorly tuned gas systems.
The problem with suppressed DI systems is that suppression artificially increase dwell time. If you have an AR with a gas system perfectly tuned for the specific suppressor you will be using, you can get it to cycle while outputting the same amount of gas into the receiver as a well tuned unsuppressed DI system. Barrel length, gas system length and gas port size have to be carefully calculated to work with a specific suppressor(or rather the specific amount of dwell time any given suppressor adds, they're almost never the same) and most people don't don't put in the effort required.
Most if not every suppressed DI I've seen (on youtube at least) always has one of two major flaws:
They're using parts designed to be used in a non suppressed DI system
OR
they're using parts that might work for a specific suppressor but they're using the wrong suppressor.
You will often see people use the same rifle to test a large number of suppressors which sounds like a fair way to test them but it can lead to misleading results as the system might only be optimized for one suppressor.
>well how do they get these unoptimized systems to cycle if the parts they're using shouldn't be suppressed?
If you thought that, good question. The way people have been brute forcing this is by simply adding resistance to the recoil system either by adding weight to the buffer or increasing spring strength (or maybe both in shorter barrels) to compensate for the extra gas. This solves the cycling problem but it does nothing about the gas and they usually have extremely overgassed guns with extra recoil. It's a really hack-y solution that doesn't solve the core problem.
As Jay from pew science said, you can tune the gun 6 ways from sunday, get it blessed by a shaman, and center it’s chi with crystals...but a super high flow restriction suppressor will still be gas city, usa, population:you with rapid or full auto fire
>but a super high flow restriction suppressor will still be gas city
simply not true, however that might be unavoidable for short barrels where even the longest gas system available is still quite short which is why I would ALWAYS want a piston system on a suppressed sbr
But pistons don’t eliminate gassiness because most of the “gas” is coming back down the barrel...my blowback pcc is gassy with long pistol suppressors because they are high flow restriction
>But pistons don’t eliminate gassiness
I think there's some truth to that gas-city statement you made but I would change it to
short barrel + high flow restriction suppressor = auchwitz(allegedly)
however a piston will still do a better job at directing more out of the gas block so that you get less gas in your face than compared to blowback or DI, but it will still be gassy of course
Yea true, jay was talking about the mk18
Interesting, thanks for elaborating anon, makes me even more interested in putting together a gucci noveske AR.
Welcome, great time for suppressor technology...most quiet 5.56 suppressors meter really high at the ear, oss managed equal muzzle and ear numbers (on the mk18 untuned). The unanswered question by pew science is: can a tuned gun be quieter at the ear than oss...bro science says yes, I’m not saying they are wrong but can’t wait for pew science to confirm...however, if you still wear ear pro, which you should be, does any of it matter...if you want super quiet muzzle get a polonium or rc2, if you want less blowback/cleaner/no tuning get a oss/huxwrx...
>can a tuned gun be quieter at the ear than oss
The answer is yes and I can smith a suppressed DI AR15 better than those LARPing boomers at PEW.
Lol, you don’t know who Jay is do you?
https://pewscience.com/
Yes I do. If I was given 6 months with the resources he has access to I would mog everything he's ever done.
Roller delayed blowback
Heavy. Also I don't think they are fond of suppression
The right answer.
Its not really an argument around here. Basedface and anyone who does it is cringe.
DI was an intentional design choice and for good reason.
Look at M27 failures for confirmation.
>inb4 muh underwater Hollywood Navy SEAL
>insert amphibious sentry removal
>insert boonie cap+waterproof facepaint
>insert bucket of water in desert environment for SEALs underwater infil
>insert GI Jane b/c diversity
>insert "muh wife's name"
I'm usually a long stroke guy till I'm close, then I'll do faster short strokes.
I only directly impinge my anus if I'm having a hard time getting off.
u hev gay
None of them are the best.
They all have their places, except maybe long stroke gas pistons. But hey, that's beside the point.
I've always been partial to short stroke gas pistons for their easy adjustability and simplicity of cleaning, but I own an AK, a Hakim and an FAL.
I wouldn't say the gas system has any real bearing on which I prefer, as I love them all for different reasons.
>Direct Shlong Stroke Impingement
Yes, it’s roller delay
Toggle lock
Direct short long impingement.
Long stroke the shaft
Short stroke the tip
>Full auto
>Short barrel
>Suppressed
If you are doing two or all three of these, piston. If you are only doing one of these, Stoner gas. If you think lever delayed blowback is neat, you need to breathe less stoner gas.
I cannot wait until someone designs a 3D printed piston (or gas block) that has a gas delay mechanism that's like a CGS suppressor and also a bleed-off feature like SLR blocks. It can receive a wide variety of forces from the gas port but always pushes the piston rearward at the same velocity. The delay ensures that gasses have time to exit a suppressor.
>3d printed piston or gas block
This is what happens when you polish and file your brain to be cute and smooth instead of bumpy and lumpy
>doesn’t know what dmls 3D printing is
ngmi
Nice cope moron.
We both know you weren't talking about metal 3d printing, not that metal 3d printing is even at a stage where making gas blocks and pistons would be economically viable.
>We both know you weren't talking about metal 3d printing
what? not him but that was the first thing I assumed as well
DMLS was the first thing I assumed**
I namedropped CGS in the post (who only makes DMLS rifle cans) of course that's what I'm talking about. Who's the smooth brain here?
Stoner Piston. The Ar15 and m16/m4 is stoner piston.
DI is better if you're using low residue ammo due to self-cleaning. Short stroke is premium long stroke. Long stroke is the most economical.
AR is a failed obsolete design.
You sure about that?
DI with no buffer tube, I don't really give a shit about the buffer tube/receiver extension but everyone feels like they need to be without it.
But DI is best
>lighter
>better balanced
>less moving parts
Then again
>shits where it eats
Oh well, that really is the only legit argument. It's dirtier, and some people will still knock this like it's anything other than just annoying to clean. They'll ignore the millions of users who have shot thousands of rounds each without cleaning and zero malfunctions.