Everyone who's ever bought an AR-15 is outrageous the Army has switched to a different cartridge and rifle. They feel abandoned and unloved because they are, and they're hyped up little 22 magnums are going the way of the dodo while 30 caliber rains supreme yet again after a nice little nap.
Well yeah but I thought there might have been a specific new problem. Like I just found out about the handguard flex the other day so I was wondering what else Sig managed to frick up
There are rummors case telescoping is plagued by accuracy problems induced by moving chamber misalignments and incompatibility with VLD bullets like 6.8 GP.
It passed tests with surrogate bullet, but with real 6.8 GP it flopped.
Not him, and I’m not a Sig hater, obviously they had the superior contenders, but how exactly is sig’s m250 innovative? It’s a basic b***h short action beltfed MG in a new caliber.
I’ll give them points for the weight, but really the m250 is in the league of 7.62 machineguns, not 5.56. The ammo carried is going to result in a net heavier weapon system.
Nevertheless, the KAC AMG exists. It weighs 13 pounds and it’s recoil is near-imperceptible. So sig’s entry isn’t exactly on the cutting edge on machine gun technology.
seeing M7gays think that a autoBDC in a LPVO turns a rifle in the hands of the typical 20-something army mouthbreather into a long range aimbot machine is one of the funniest developments of this shitshow
It's incredible. I shit you not that multiple times I've seen them swear that the BDC is enough and that windage at 500m+ won't matter because "beeg boolet go fast." There is a nearly 24" deviation at 500m from a 10mph crosswind for Fury.
It's incredible. I shit you not that multiple times I've seen them swear that the BDC is enough and that windage at 500m+ won't matter because "beeg boolet go fast." There is a nearly 24" deviation at 500m from a 10mph crosswind for Fury.
I'm not even sure how all that stuff got started. I remember seeing Vortex's patent documents posted ages ago and they made it pretty obvious how the scope works.
It's because a good chunk of the proponents do not know anything about long range shooting, or shooting in general. They unironically think that getting the range down is the hardest element when it is by far and away the easiest in regards to making a shot that's really going out there.
The Chinese definitely aren't going to bother with armor, either. It can't even put down American rebels because Level IV is commonplace now.
This gun is a moronic cash grab.
Honestly glad I never bought Sigshit despite living in New England where it is held in such high regard because there's a manufacturing plant in NH as well as training facility. Every person I know with a gun has a Sig lmao
This picture just makes me mad that the tens of thousands I pay in taxes each year are going to Black folk and goblinos to have this stuff instead of me.
Short stroke gas piston is based, especially since the rifle is meant to be run with a suppressor 24/7.
I get that DI is mechanically simpler and much cheaper to manufacture, with a few benefits in mud tests and shit, but those few benefits aren't really worth getting your panties in a twist over.
I doubt you COULD make a DI AR-10 in the same size footprint as the XM7.
yeah but the (scaled up in this case) AR-18 action is trash, heavier and taller than an equivalent DI and buffer tube action
the only benefit is that it doesn't fart out the ejection port and you can remove the buffer tube
1 year ago
Anonymous
Sure, but a DI action would take up more length and fart in your mouth, we already know gas blowback is horrible for your health, the army doesn't want the VA having to pay out in 20 years when the boots who were running this rifle start to see their lungs fail.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>take up more length
folding stocks are a meme, just use a non-collapsing polymer rifle stock (A1 length) and move on with your life >fart in your mouth
don't be left handed I guess
gas blowback is not so bad with the lead-free primers but yeah NOx is... gross
you'll be fine unless you're huffing MG fumes all day
1 year ago
Anonymous
>>fart in your mouth >don't be left handed I guess
Doesn't even do that if you're left handed
Suppressed I get smacked on the right cheek by unburnt powder from shitty Winchester ammo, that's about it.
>adopt shitty rifle based on shitty concept of using low power ammo for training and hot ammo for penetration >not direct impingement so now like very other nation the US will have a rifle that shits itself when it gets dirt
Why not just make an AR with an polymer cartridge and a new caliber? It would be better than this shit.
it really is a dumb idea
there is already so much support for the AR platform, they really should have just made an AR in the caliber they want
also this new rifle is heavy, which is going to be a problem if the army continues to lower standards and push "diversity and inclusion" and recruit women, trannies and gays
To penetrate armor (which it doesn't do) allow longer engagement ranges for the hills and mountains of Afghanistan (which we left) and uh, well, the machinegun is pretty good
they won by default when the only competition of note was a bullpup, nobody wants that shit
They haven't announced any plan to do as such.
For now all they've announced is they're buying ~110,000 rifles to be fielded by the frontline combat units.
What they decide to do in 5-10+ years is anyone's guess, but right now they've officially not made any decision.
As for XM5/XM7, it was renamed because Colt already has an M5 rifle and to avoid any potential lawsuits or problems the army pre-emptively changed the name to the XM7 which will become the M7 when it enters service later this year.
>after sometime
Which has never happened before with a service rifle
The '03 Springfield, Garand, M14, M16, they were all rolled out by the millions within their first five years issued
Im fairly sure its because, while the threat of enhanced body armor necessitating the new cartridge is real, no one has deployed it in mass, and the army isnt sure how necessary the rifle will be. Maybe theyll never fully upgrade.
Honestly it feels like the US military is finally adapting to the fact that noone can really match them in terms of investment, and even if china can get close, they just dont have the decades of heavy R&D investment that we do
Battle Rifles are too heavy
Assault Rifles are too weak against modern body armor
The Sig Spear bridges the gap between Battle Rifles and Assault Rifles. This is afforded due to modern material science, allowing higher chamber pressures than previous Assault Rifles while also remaining relatively light >but muh recoil!
I've fired one, its fine.
>Better ballistics than either .308 or 6.5 creedmoor >For some reason they cant go back to .308 and make it better saving time and money. >Oh wait they want this thing to be "Expensive" so they can transfer more wealth from the American tax payer to the elite
This, also moronic that they want a new service eifle that also is a dmr but they cut that rifle shorts as frick, and as seen by the commercial hybrid ammo that’s available. It affects ballistics alot
>The Sig Spear bridges the gap between Battle Rifles and Assault Rifles.
By having the weight of a battle rifle and the effect on armor of an assault rifle?
One of the lightest weight BRs ever made for it's capabilities, and more lethality than either .308 or 6.5meemoor, both of which can do considerably more against armor than 5.56.
This doesn't mean 6.8x51 (or 7.62) can pen the armor you're talking about, but it IS more effective than 5.56 even if neither one pens on the first shot.
>makes praise revolve around effect on armor >"it IS more effective than 5.56 even if neither one pens on the first shot."
Do SIG shill have actual brain parasites or something? Between not understanding windage, thinking a BDC turns the common grunt into a sniper, and this assumption that people are really getting nailed multiple times at range by infantry rifles, it's like all their knowledge about small arms combat comes from videogames.
I'm just tired of morons like you pretending it's supposed to be some sniper round penetrating high tier body armor when it was NEVER intended to do that. It's intended to go through light cover like a single layer brick wall or some wood or sheet metal.
BUH MUH ARMOR PEN as if armor pen = penetrating BODY armor, not just generic greater penetration through ANY cover (the actual point of the program).
>I'm just tired of morons like you pretending it's supposed to be some sniper round penetrating high tier body armor when it was NEVER intended to do that.
Ironic, considering skeptics like me were the ones always saying this and it was your ilk posting otherwise, but you do you famalam. >BUH MUH ARMOR PEN as if armor pen = penetrating BODY armor
No one refers to barrier penetration as armor penetration you literal moron, holy shit. >not just generic greater penetration through ANY cover (the actual point of the program).
I cannot tell if you're being serious or not, this was never alluded to in any of the competition specs.
> as if armor pen = penetrating BODY armor not just generic greater penetration through ANY cover
Do you refer to cinder blocks, sheet metal and foliage as "armor"??
>One of the lightest weight BRs ever made for it's capabilities
It’s 13.5lbs. >and more lethality than either .308 or 6.5meemoor
Not in any practical sense with bullets of similar construction. Explain to me where there is a lethal hit with 6.8 that would not be a lethal hit with the other 2 in the same place. >both of which can do considerably more against armor than 5.56.
Still requires multiple shots to penetrate
You didn’t post guns. Hmm I wonder why. Even tiny ones like this are fine.
>A fully kitted M4 can push 11+lbs too.
No it can't.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Not him, but yes it can with a Vortex Razor and PEQ-15, RC2, sling, and loaded magazine, it gets a little over 11 pounds. If you replace the Razor with an Aimpoint and the RC2 with the Mini 2, you're back to around 10 pounds.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Lmao yes they can, and often do. Try actually being a grunt.
>The Sig Spear bridges the gap between Battle Rifles and Assault Rifles.
By weighing more than an M-14 and shooting a round that's weight virtually the same and is 20k psi hotter than M80 Ball?
Never forget that the Army spent twenty years working on a new, lightweight polymer case-telescoped round that would reduce the infantryman's burden (or more likely, allow him to carry more stuff like radios, batteries, and explosives). And then, at the last second, a couple generals who were obsessed with the supposed range advantage the Taliban had in mountaintop fights trashed the whole program by rewriting the program requirements to demand a heavy bullet traveling at warp speed. And now, the infantry won't have enough ammo for a long firefight, much less enough spare weight allowance to carry the smart munitions they'll need.
Polymer case technology is rapidly advancing too. It's not like it just stopped when this competition ended. The goofy multi-piece case shit already looks outdated and will be a forgotten curiosity within a few years.
[...] >THE *AMRY* SAID SO
the army has repeatedly proven its capacity for moronation which anyone who has served would be able to tell you, use your brain you hyperemotional homosexual, if you think this shit is actually intermediate then you might as well consider any full-powered rifle round intermediate as well
Fellas, I don't understand, what's so revolutionary about those hybrid casings?
Couldn't the same performance be achieved with, you know, ultra cheap full steel casings?
No, because the traditional brass cartridge is achieved through several drawing and ironing steps followed by annealing steps. What you get at the end is a one-piece cartridge where the head of the case is work-hardened, the walls less so, and the mouth of the case is annealed by just heating up that section (military brass is discolored near the mouth and left that way on purpose as part of milspec requirement, commercial cases usually get a final wash and polish). This gives you a case head that can withstand the pressure when backed by the breech, a case wall that expands against the chamber during firing, and a mouth that can be tensioned to hold the bullet on its own, with the crimp being assurance in military settings.
When you make a full steel case, now you have to use a steel alloy that won't frick up your extractor but also gives you all these neat properties. You can't really get that, so the compromise is steel cases that don't actually expand as much as brass. You try to now add the performance being achieved with 6.8 Sig and you'll be using an alloy that's going to frick up all your drawing dies due to hardness and toughness requirements, possibly get all sorts of problems like case ruptures during firing or even damaging the bullet jacket during loading.
>Couldn't the same performance be achieved with, you know, ultra cheap full steel casings?
It's called thinwall steel or thinwall stainless steel cases. It's what FN's rifle in
https://i.imgur.com/qo4LERD.jpg
>pircrel is the guy she told you not to worry about
FN IWS puts siggers on suicide
Brass seals better against the chamber which helps with pressure and it’s also easier to extract. Steel cases cause more erosion in the chamber which is already going to suck with the specs of this round. Not saying it can’t be done with just steel, but there are reasons brass is used
Hybrid case alows to make case head from high strength steel. You can't draw case from the high strength steel, it neet to be ductile. Ductility and strength are opposite sides of the properties. Hybrid case solves this problem, head and walls can be made from different materials with different properties.
Higher head strength = higher working pressure. More power from the same barrel and powder charge. "Free lunch".
In all seriousness, I actually like the XM7, but more as a replacement for DMR type roles, not for a standard infantry rifle.
I am actually more interested in the ballistics of a hotter 5.56 using sig's casing tech. I wonder if something like Geiselle's enhanced BCG (specifically the carpenter 158 steel bolt) could take the pressure increase of such a 5.56 round.
5.56 at 35-4000 is basically a more compact 22-250 (think 7.62x51 to M2 ball); to the best of my understanding 22-250 has a similar level of energy to a 7.62x39 which is still sufficiently controllable so a souped up 5.56 wouldnt be a bad idea
yep. the XM7 is a rifle to fight the last war. Doesn't make ANY sense for a highly mechanized and urban Pacific war that we expect to fight by the end of the decade
SIG USA has successfully captured the Army procurement apparatus. Corruption is increasingly evident across all of US government including armed forces.
>do think purchasing all our small arms from one manufacturer would be a logistically and financially sound decision? >NO ONLY A israelite WOULD THINK OF SUCH THINGS
Man, I'm glad you'll never be in any position to make procurement decisions.
One of the lightest weight BRs ever made for it's capabilities, and more lethality than either .308 or 6.5meemoor, both of which can do considerably more against armor than 5.56.
This doesn't mean 6.8x51 (or 7.62) can pen the armor you're talking about, but it IS more effective than 5.56 even if neither one pens on the first shot.
>it can't pen armor any better than the cartridge it was supposed to replace to pen armor, but if it lands a hit despite more recoil and less ammo the bruise on their ribs will be slightly wider
Considering it was never designed to penetrate high tier body armor, I don't really understand your point.
It was designed to go through light cover (walls, unarmored vehicles, etc) better than 5.56. It does that. It's ALSO flatter shooting, heavier, and faster.
The idea that it was SUPPOSED to be able to penetrate level 4 rifle plates is just fuddlore fantasy cope you dumb fricks made up to shit on it.
>The idea that it was SUPPOSED to be able to penetrate level 4 rifle plates is just fuddlore fantasy cope you dumb fricks made up to shit on it.
you are absolutely fricking deluded if you think the detractors were the one spewing the armor pen meme and not the supporters. like straight up brain damaged.
I don't give a single frick who started saying it, if you're STILL saying it, you're a moron. And the people who STARTED saying it, are ALSO morons.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>YOU JUST SAID THIS TO SHIT ON IT >no we didn't the whole reason it got brought up at all was because the pro_NGSW crows swore it would go through IV plates for weeks on end >WHO CARES WHO STARTED IT
are you a woman?
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Who the frick cares who started it?
Everyone. Because you started it. Then backpedaled faster than primetime could.
Penning peer body armor was the latest official justification, moron. Before that, it was range in afghanistan and in the program before NGSW it was stopping power for CQB.
You're continuing the same series of rationalisations, but unlike the official copers you're denying the literal official justifications.
>was the latest official justification
Show me ANYWHERE that OFFICIALLY claims this.
I've read the entire original project PPON that started the program, as well as watched the entire contract award announcement press conference.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You cannot say that the whole point of the program was to increase blind barrier penetration capability and expect to be taken seriously. Why are you posting like you're on the verge of crying?
1 year ago
Anonymous
I never said that was the ENTIRE point of the program, that was the ONLY point of penetration needs stated by the program ( you know, the specific thing we're talking about here?)
The overall goal of the program was to increase lethal engagement range while keeping ammo commonality throughout the squad.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>I never said that was the ENTIRE point of the program
I'm just tired of morons like you pretending it's supposed to be some sniper round penetrating high tier body armor when it was NEVER intended to do that. It's intended to go through light cover like a single layer brick wall or some wood or sheet metal.
BUH MUH ARMOR PEN as if armor pen = penetrating BODY armor, not just generic greater penetration through ANY cover (the actual point of the program).
>generic greater penetration through ANY cover (the actual point of the program).
please refer to
>YOU JUST SAID THIS TO SHIT ON IT >no we didn't the whole reason it got brought up at all was because the pro_NGSW crows swore it would go through IV plates for weeks on end >WHO CARES WHO STARTED IT
are you a woman?
, are you a vegana-haver, because you argue like one.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yes, again in the context SPECIFICALLY of penetration, the point of THIS program was NOT to design a round to penetrate level 4 plates.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>aaaaaaaa it was actually barrier pen all along
There's no reasoning with a liar like you.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I'm asking for the proof you said existed OFFICIALLY.
if asking you to provide proof of a claim you said was OFFICIAL justification, how the frick am I supposed to believe ANYTHING you claim?
This is just wrong. Its supposed to give basic infantry the ability to reach out to 600 yards, thump through light-skinned vehicles, and defeat special threat plates (not level IV) in a similar size and weight package to 5.56 rifles. It does this. Its actually a great idea for an intermediate cartridge.
>M7 >a similar size and weight package to 5.56 rifles >an intermediate cartridge.
Okay I'm starting to think that these people are either shitposters or genuinely mentally ill.
Black person have a nice day, the army themselves refer to it as an intermediate cartridge.
ACHTUALLY homosexuals like yourself will point out it's a full-sized rifle cartridge, but so fricking what? The army is calling it intermediate.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Active denial of reality, more support for my theory.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Again, blame the most well funded military in the world for making that claim, not the people repeating what they say.
You just seem like a pedantic homosexual the more you dig your heels in on that one in particular.
1 year ago
Anonymous
A round with a135gr. projectile and 80k psi chamber pressure is not intermediate in any way shape or form. Do you consider 6.5 Creed and 7.62 NATO intermediate?
1 year ago
Anonymous
see
Again, blame the most well funded military in the world for making that claim, not the people repeating what they say.
You just seem like a pedantic homosexual the more you dig your heels in on that one in particular.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Even if they said that, they're wrong. It's nto intermediate, and you thinking it is just because some nimrod with a rank said it was makes me wonder what you know about shooting period.
Anywho, it's a nice Sunday and I'm going to spend it shooting steel at 300m, not arguing with a likely gunless troll having fits of autism rage.
1 year ago
Anonymous
https://i.imgur.com/CL2S1ZR.jpg
[...] >THE *AMRY* SAID SO
the army has repeatedly proven its capacity for moronation which anyone who has served would be able to tell you, use your brain you hyperemotional homosexual, if you think this shit is actually intermediate then you might as well consider any full-powered rifle round intermediate as well
Get over it, the round was created after the army ran several research programs on a replacement intermediate caliber round, they determined a larger round than 5.56 was needed, so they settled on 6.5-6.8mm bullet this eventually finalized to a 6.8x51 bullet/catridge.
Since all of this originally started with the goal of making a new intermediate caliber, that's what the army calls it even if by traditional standards, it is full-size.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>the army says it's an intermediate round so it's an intermediate round
my guy you are actually moronic, I hope you're realizing this
1 year ago
Anonymous
You're also the moron that thinks the army wants it to pen level 4 armor despite never having said that's what they want.
[...]
[...]
[...]
[...]
You have to be 18 to post here
Good thing I'm 31 then.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You're 31 and you have the emotional posting style of a 14 year old redditor? Damn.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>the emotional posting style
LE REDDIT POSTING MAYMAY?!@?!?!
"reddit" posting as a meme was created to let newbies (like yourself) call someone out for "reddit" posting which was just allowing yourself to signal to everyone else that you were a newbie.
"Reddit" posting as a format style has existed since before PrepHole even existed, since it's a stylistic holdover that was popularized on tech forums and other online forum communities in the late '90s and early '00s.
1 year ago
Anonymous
My dude are you okay?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Did you read the first line and assume it was some breakdown or something?
I'm fine, I'm more worried about you since you've soundly outed yourself as a newbie.
1 year ago
Anonymous
> I'm more worried about you since you've soundly outed yourself as a newbie.
only a sigger could post this without any hint of irony.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Only a braindead moron thinks that me pointing out how the gun isn't shit and does exactly what the army asked for somehow makes me a "sigger".
I don't even own ANY SIG products.
I've got a Benelli M4 and I'm debating on AR, but haven't made any decisions yet.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>I don't even own ANY SIG products.
you don't own any guns period dude lol
1 year ago
Anonymous
Besides my Benelli M4 I also have an old Remington 870.
I live in a state where handgun purchase is dumb and ARs are also restricted and harder to get generic models.
In this state the only easy guns to buy are shotguns or bolt action rifles.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>In this state the only easy guns to buy are shotguns or bolt action rifles.
Why aren't you being specific about the state, that narrows it down to a small handful already.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Probably a Canuck LARPing as an american
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yeah it's, what, MD, NJ, CT, MA, and maybe just recently WA?
1 year ago
Anonymous
NJgay here
I feel a bizarre mixture of relief and annoyance that getting my MP15 was much, much easier than getting my Glock was
1 year ago
Anonymous
Places that make it so handguns *and* semiauto rifles are hard to get are even fewer than that, as
NJgay here
I feel a bizarre mixture of relief and annoyance that getting my MP15 was much, much easier than getting my Glock was
described. So it's a state that makes it hard to get self-loading rifles and pistols, but self-loading shotguns like the M4 are g2g...my money is on him not even being American.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It's probably MD because of their moronic "heavy' barrel rule, which has no real definition from what I can determine making ANY AR somewhat dubious unless it specifically calls itself MD compliant.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Realistically NY due to the new semi auto license scheme
1 year ago
Anonymous
>I've got a Benelli M4
Then post it
1 year ago
Anonymous
>You're also the moron that thinks the army wants it to pen level 4 armor
nah, but cool backtracking attempt you noguns moron, lmfao
1 year ago
Anonymous
Again, blame the most well funded military in the world for making that claim, not the people repeating what they say.
You just seem like a pedantic homosexual the more you dig your heels in on that one in particular.
Black person have a nice day, the army themselves refer to it as an intermediate cartridge.
ACHTUALLY homosexuals like yourself will point out it's a full-sized rifle cartridge, but so fricking what? The army is calling it intermediate.
Who the frick cares who started it?
I don't give a single frick who started saying it, if you're STILL saying it, you're a moron. And the people who STARTED saying it, are ALSO morons.
I'm just tired of morons like you pretending it's supposed to be some sniper round penetrating high tier body armor when it was NEVER intended to do that. It's intended to go through light cover like a single layer brick wall or some wood or sheet metal.
BUH MUH ARMOR PEN as if armor pen = penetrating BODY armor, not just generic greater penetration through ANY cover (the actual point of the program).
You have to be 18 to post here
1 year ago
Anonymous
Again, blame the most well funded military in the world for making that claim, not the people repeating what they say.
You just seem like a pedantic homosexual the more you dig your heels in on that one in particular.
Black person have a nice day, the army themselves refer to it as an intermediate cartridge.
ACHTUALLY homosexuals like yourself will point out it's a full-sized rifle cartridge, but so fricking what? The army is calling it intermediate.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>intermediate caliber round, they determined a larger round than 5.56 was needed >larger >than intermediate >nooooooo it’s still intermediate
Post hand and guns
1 year ago
Anonymous
>"Even if it's not, they said so!"
1 year ago
Anonymous
Again, blame the most well funded military in the world for making that claim, not the people repeating what they say.
You just seem like a pedantic homosexual the more you dig your heels in on that one in particular.
>THE *AMRY* SAID SO
the army has repeatedly proven its capacity for moronation which anyone who has served would be able to tell you, use your brain you hyperemotional homosexual, if you think this shit is actually intermediate then you might as well consider any full-powered rifle round intermediate as well
1 year ago
Anonymous
>the army themselves refer to it as an intermediate cartridge.
they're wrong then, if they said the sky was green would you believe them? because that's essentially what they're doing here, if they actually said that at all.
1 year ago
Anonymous
The army also says a man can cut off his dick and be a woman. That doesn’t make it true
1 year ago
Anonymous
I really wish you could step back and take in how fricking stupid you are. It would take your breath away.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>80,000 psi >intermediate round
it shouldn't be possible to be as fricking moronic as you are, how are you managing it?
>Its supposed to give basic infantry the ability to reach out to 600 yards
I don't think you fully grasp what 600 yards looks like, how rare having a line of sight that far is in a battlefield, or how relatively little a 1-8x LPVO is going to matter at that distance, especially when you put it in the hands of infantry that I can tell you from personal experience have a striking inability to take a shot at a 300 yard pop-up even with a 4x ACOG. >in a similar size and weight package to 5.56 rifles
13+ pounds fully loaded and a full yard in length... >It does this
It doesn't, categorically. >Its actually a great idea for an intermediate cartridge.
.277 SIG Fury is not an intermediate cartridge, full stop.
Do the proponents of this rifle actually know anything about it?
Incredible how much more sophisticated, understated, and svelte this thing is compared to the bloated crap from the NGWS project. And nobody even knew about it until it was already completed.
>The company can confirm earlier speculation that one of the submissions is a lightweight machine gun and the other is the FN HAMR™, a heat adaptive modular rifle. >FN HAMR
Clearly not the rifle mnetioned in the post you just quoted.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Clearly not the rifle mnetioned in the post you just quoted.
Sure, you can pretend that if you want.
1 year ago
Anonymous
HAMR is a SCAR variant
1 year ago
Anonymous
>HAMR is a SCAR variant
pretending this also isn't a SCAR variant, lmao.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Stop being a disingenuous c**t and accept you're wrong, you little shit.
Does anyone have more details on this, i only remember hearing it was designed for socom and that's about it
Frankly i think they should have just made a steel or polymer case 5.56 ++p effectively
Considering it was never designed to penetrate high tier body armor, I don't really understand your point.
It was designed to go through light cover (walls, unarmored vehicles, etc) better than 5.56. It does that. It's ALSO flatter shooting, heavier, and faster.
The idea that it was SUPPOSED to be able to penetrate level 4 rifle plates is just fuddlore fantasy cope you dumb fricks made up to shit on it.
Why the frick would we make a new cartridge if it can't pen armor? Oh yay the gun has a Uber scope and Uber range, but what if the enemy is behind cover, is moving, or you simply don't notice them 500 m away? It seems like a very niche situation to engage combat at that range
> but what if the enemy is behind cover, is moving, or you simply don't notice them 500 m away?
my running theory is these people think IRL combat works like a videogame where you catch entire platoons right out in the open and then when you engage them they just crouch or go prone on the spot and let you pick them off one by one, like ARMA AI. in reality infantry engaging infantry half a kilometer away with rifles is going to have very questionable results, even if you have a 8x power scope and a hotloaded magnum round....
>my running theory is these people think IRL combat works like a videogame where you catch entire platoons right out in the open and then when you engage them they just crouch or go prone on the spot and let you pick them off one by one
Realistically, with the other systems being fielded to go along with it, any infantry force is just going to be fricked either way.
>Small, squad launchable, suicide drones >connected displays/HUDS that can get real time intel, and target highlights WITH thermal fusion optics. >integrated weapon guidance via the same HUD
The scope is there to fix you in place with you get killed a half dozen other ways.
>The scope is there to fix you in place with you get killed a half dozen other ways.
Sounds like a super-dee-duper task for the squad DMRs and MGs and not something every rifleman should be tasked with.
>The scope is there to fix you in place with you get killed a half dozen other ways.
If the goal is to pin people in place with suppressive fire why are you gimping ammo capacity? If you aren’t expecting the rifle to get kills than doesn’t something like 5.56 make more sense because you can carry so much more?
Don’t give me that bullshit about “well it suppresses targets better because bigger boolit”
We saw how that worked In Afghanistan and Iraq; i.e. it didn’t with 5.56. Even now with the Russo-Ukrainian war most engagements are at ranges where magnified optics would help tremendously.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>We saw how that worked In Afghanistan and Iraq; i.e. it didn’t with 5.56
Really now? It didn’t send people into cover? If they were 600+ yards away then maybe because you’re missing by a lot, but news flash most of the world isn’t Afghanistan. >Even now with the Russo-Ukrainian war most engagements are at ranges where magnified optics would help tremendously
No fricking shit. When did I say optics are bad? What does having a scope have to do with 6.8 or the XM7? The scope was developing independently of the rifle and ammo.
1 year ago
Anonymous
What’s the point of having an Optic that can see the enemy on a rifle that is hundreds of meters out of your engagement range Anon? You’re slowly getting to the point.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Do you think 5.56 hits a wall and stops at 600m or what? Or are you one of those people who thinks 1000 yard shots are no child’s play with only a 8x zoom?
Basically in what circumstances can 6.8 suppress an enemy where 5.56 can not if both are using the same optic?
Grifter's paradise
Just like with the Future Warrior/Future Soldier programs of the 90s and early 00s the only winners are the defense companies involved
At least this one doesn't look like a fricking fish.
It WILL fail anyway, no matter what you autists say. They WILL walk back on the contract and keep the M4/M16/Big Black AR-15/Whatever.
I keep saying it doesn't even have to be walked back
The contract is miniscule enough that damage control was always in place for them to easily go "Yep, we're very happy with our new SCAR-H/HK417/AR10/M14 replacement" and not even be lying
Most people here who try to write off the m7 in about 1 sentence or just lazily "it's just (example that isn't even remotely close to what it is being compared to) it's all a scam" are dumbasses or people who can't get over sig winning the contract since their totally game changing bullpup whatever was definitely the better choice.
Not him but playing with the idea:
A long-stroke piston has lighter perceived recoil than short-stroke pistons because it feels more like a push than a few light hits
C405/7050 series aluminum could replace 7075 to cut a few ounces while retaining strength. Or in the case of the handguard, keep the weight and strength it to increase rigidity.
The longer barrel poses a problem. Maybe have it really thick around the chamber but tapered to a pencil profile? Or use a barrel sleeve design like on tanks/ what Armalite did with the original AR-10 against Stoner's recommendation
1 year ago
Anonymous
DI
so both larger and lighter weight, while ALSO reducing the recoil?
seems like physics would contradict that possibility.
You'd need to sacrifice the folding stock and use more polymers but it wouldn't even be hard
the barrel is negotiable
Hmmmm if only there was a way to increase barrel length and therefore velocity meaning a lower pressure round could be used, all while not increasing OAL
Reminder that the SIG round averages over 80-90k psi while still being the slowest round. Reminder that the army required over 10k round barrel life. Reminder that SIG’s mat sci group couldn’t pull off polymer designs so they had to change to the shitty hybrid case, yet can supposedly somehow make better barrels than companies like rheinmetal.
I pity the poor grunt who gets the first failure.
smart scope + ivas feeding aimbot tier aiming advice to grunt
+
grunt with heavier and harder hitting round
=
every infantry squad now has a fighting chance against enemy drones
=
US has widespread anti-drone capability built into every infantry soldier when countries are still figuring out how to use drones
>smart scope + ivas feeding aimbot tier aiming advice to grunt
Which can be applied to any rifle >+ >grunt with heavier and harder hitting round >= >every infantry squad now has a fighting chance against enemy drones
What? How are grunts able to pick out drones from the sky with a rifle?
>every infantry squad now has a fighting chance against enemy drones
Well that's officially the most moronic explanation for the M7 I've seen so far, congrats.
>smart scope + ivas feeding aimbot tier aiming advice to grunt
Which can be applied to any rifle >+ >grunt with heavier and harder hitting round >= >every infantry squad now has a fighting chance against enemy drones
What? How are grunts able to pick out drones from the sky with a rifle?
rifle volley fire numbnuts
are you seriously telling me between a chance to shoot down a drone and having no chance to shoot down a drone you'd pick the latter? this isn't a tactic done in isolation, it's like a CIWS-level last ditch resort last layer of the survivability onion option too, so don't misinterpret
>kek he’s doubling down
You've never shot anything out of the air have you? Post shotgun.
A couple things. First, why does only 6.8 and this rifle have the ability to volley fire? Second, how does the scope coordinated multiple people aiming and firing at the same time? Third, if you are trying to hit flying targets far away why are you gimping ammo capacity and using a heavier recoiling round? And lastly, do you have any idea how CIWS even works? It’s computer controlled firing dipshit.
>are you seriously telling me between a chance to shoot down a drone and having no chance to shoot down a drone you'd pick the latter?
Are you seriously saying that you can only shoot into the sky with 6.8 and the XM7?
smart scope + ivas feeding aimbot tier aiming advice to grunt
+
grunt with heavier and harder hitting round
=
every infantry squad now has a fighting chance against enemy drones
=
US has widespread anti-drone capability built into every infantry soldier when countries are still figuring out how to use drones
why not just stick the scope on a M4 if drones are what you are worried about? The drones your infantry would be fighting are basically cardboard or fiberglass. armor isn't really a concern then. Flip the switch to funny automatic and light the thing up.
Sure as shit beats fighting heavy recoil trying to make follow up shots even if your aiming point is being handed to you courtesy of a fancy scope.
The NGSW rifle is moronic. the MG has potential. But regardless we're now treating gun barrels as expendable when the potential future peer conflict would likely be costly in terms of manpower losses AND would be coupled with economic warfare and would result in lack of access of the US to non-fuel minerals.
IMHO we need to go with cheap plastic ammo that doesn't require a lot of manufacturing and doesn't require lots of critical resources. injection mold that shit for 0.00000002 cents on equipment that you can basically have in your garage.
>But regardless we're now treating gun barrels as expendable when the potential future peer conflict would likely be costly in terms of manpower losses AND would be coupled with economic warfare and would result in lack of access of the US to non-fuel minerals.
I'm not saying it's outside the realm of possibility, but if we ever get to the point where getting materials to make infantry rifles and ammunition is a strategic problem then we've probably got a whole lot of other big exciting problems to go along with it and might have to just play that one by ear.
>Sure as shit beats fighting heavy recoil trying to make follow up shots even if your aiming point is being handed to you courtesy of a fancy scope.
Because he’s moronic and that isn’t the purpose of the rifle. I think the XM7 is dumb as a standard issue replacement but it’s certainly not designed to shoot them from the sky
So we went from >it was a LMG program and the rifle doesn’t matter
To >it’s to penetrate body armor
To >muh overmatch
And now to >it’s to shoot drones out of the sky
Wow. I wonder what the next Sigger line will be. Any other ones I already forgot?
>kek he’s doubling down
You've never shot anything out of the air have you? Post shotgun.
A couple things. First, why does only 6.8 and this rifle have the ability to volley fire? Second, how does the scope coordinated multiple people aiming and firing at the same time? Third, if you are trying to hit flying targets far away why are you gimping ammo capacity and using a heavier recoiling round? And lastly, do you have any idea how CIWS even works? It’s computer controlled firing dipshit.
>are you seriously telling me between a chance to shoot down a drone and having no chance to shoot down a drone you'd pick the latter?
Are you seriously saying that you can only shoot into the sky with 6.8 and the XM7?
WHICH shotguns come with smart scopes as part of it's contract
>it was a LMG program and the rifle doesn’t matter
To >it’s to penetrate body armor
To >muh overmatch
And now to
literally never said anything apart from killing drones take your meds
>A couple things. First, why does only 6.8 and this rifle have the ability to volley fire? Second, how does the scope coordinated multiple people aiming and firing at the same time? Third, if you are trying to hit flying targets far away why are you gimping ammo capacity and using a heavier recoiling round? And lastly, do you have any idea how CIWS even works?
>why?
Because if you don't want M4s on Mars you have to start somewhere, unfortunately at this point in time there's no significant leap if technology that's going to necessitate something that different which is why the fish gun wasn't going to make it.
>somewhere out there is a 30-something loser spending his sunday soaking his keyboard with tears of rage as he defends a rifle he will never touch, let alone shoot
This is such an ugly fricking abomination of a gun. It looks like it belongs in that "in-between" era of experimental guns that never took off, except this is the nightmare alternate reality where it did take off and got adopted.
>a bunch of skinnyfat nerds and obese bubbas reeing at each other about a weapons system they'll likely never put their stubby Cheeto snatchers on because they can't afford it/won't or can't join the military for a litany of psychological and physiological reasons
I'm halfway convinced it was just to have caliber parity with MG adoption
The M250 is legitimately a good upgrade over the 249, and will probably take over the 240 as well just for weight considerations alone
>probably take over the 240 as well
There's no reason for it not to replace the 240 and 249 since it does everything the 240 does but better
The XM7 would be a good replacement for SDMRs
But increasing the rifleman's loadout by that much is moronic.
If the Army really cared about overmatch and replacing the M4, they would have asked for a rifle built from the ground up to fire 6mm ARC. They can even keep the hybrid case design to get even more range out of it. Or, if they're dead set on .277, they could resurrect and update 6.8 SPC with VLD bullets and the hybrid case, but they'll have to build a gun from the ground up again. There would still be a weight increase, but not 25-40% like
Which is a 23% increase before factoring in mags. It’s another 2.4lbs of ammo with just 6 mags which is a 40% increase
said. Magazines would still be a more reasonable size with decent capacity. Loadouts of the same weight would be around 150-180 rounds vs 180-210 with 5.56.
>There's no reason for it not to replace the 240 and 249 since it does everything the 240 does but better
It doesn't have a quick change barrel (by army choice, SIG offered it). so it's unsuitable for sustained fire MG roles that the M240 is capable of.
>Magazines would still be a more reasonable size with decent capacity. Loadouts of the same weight would be around 150-180 rounds vs 180-210 with 5.56.
Thats what kills me. It’s not that 5.56 is perfect but number of rounds matter and every way since the civil war has shown that. Something with 24-26 rounds isn’t as big of a loss (or weight increase) as going to 20 rounds of 6.8. You keep at least 80% of your total ammo vs 67%. When we inevitable switch back to 5.56 or something that holds 30 rounds or more it’ll be pitched as a 50% increase from 6.8 and makes our soldiers more lethal. Calling it now.
It's the inverse of what the marines did by requesting and adopting the M27 to replace the M249 but right after adoption they hoodwinked ordnance and said they're replacing their M4/16s with it instead.
The Army wanted to replace their 308 rifles and GPMG at the same time, so they adopted this. They're not gonna stop using their M4s.
This is really weird. Is it even that much better than the M16? The US has discarded rifles before for this reason. It also seems like a scumbag move for the US to switch ammo for no reason. I thought part of the point was NATO all share the same ammo type.
I don't understand it
>The .mil NEVER said AP was a requirement!
https://apps.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2021/Army/stamped/U_0603639A_4_PB_2021.pdf
This shit has been a thing since ICSR was trying to be rammed through by HK & SIG shills in the government.
TFB has a ton of articles about ICSR/SDMR/NGSW and MUH ARMOR PIERCING
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/02/08/m110a1-csass-sdmr-fielded-2018-advap-2019/
SIGgers think we all have short memories, I guess.
I think the biggest issue is the two ammos. The Fury one is issued for combat, but training would be done another lower pressure one to preserve the gun. One, they suggests the Fury ammo degrades things quicker. Two, it sounds like a bad idea to train with anything other than what you will actually use.
>t sounds like a bad idea to train with anything other than what you will actually use.
not as big of a deal as you people are making this out to be. When I first came into the Army we trained with nothing but 55gr M193, but when deployed we were issued M855A1.
>noooo you can’t use 100+ years of combat lessons to make predictions about the future >just get excited for the new thing
The irony of your statement is they are going back to the “every soldier is a marksman” which has been beaten to death already and isn’t true. Yes a built in rangefinder and drop compensator will help. Yes a LPVO will help. Those can be applied to any rifle though.
A heavy rifle, with heavy ammo, less capacity and total combat load, that recoils more, isn’t a winning design. We can get higher recoil than 5.56 because that’s baby tier recoil but a 13.5lb rifle isn’t light. Anyone saying lift more doesn’t lift and hasn’t carried shit for very far.
To go through Russian body armor, which they appear to have already run out of in Ukraine ~6 months ago, and Chinese body armor, which you can buy on wish.com and is made of a single layer aluminum foil.
We always freak out and try to develop tech to counter the fantasy horseshit the potential enemy claims their equipment can do instead of what it actually can do. See: hypersonic missiles, ICBMS, and sperging about the Russian's magic radar weapon that turns planes off pre-Ukraine.
because there is a 0.0005% chance that infantry will be able engage enemy infantry at 600m. And there is a 0.0004% chance that everybody agrees to hold all future wars in afghanistan where sight lines can be 600m. There is also a 0.0007% chance that said enemy infantry will expose their 11x14 inch armor plate to incoming fire. Then there is a 0.0003% chance that suppressive fire only works with 6.8mm calibers or above.
Additionally there is a 0.0002% chance that material science isn't real and no more progress can be made in the composition and capability of personal body armor, which would make a higher caliber round effective at combating body armor for years to come.
Because there is no point fielding a new rifle if you have no ammo for it.
The existing lake city ammo production facility is continuing with existing 7.62 and 5.56 production, so the 6.8x51 production line has to be built from scratch, they also don't have floorspace in the existing facility to fit a new production line, so they're building a whole new building to house the new 6.8x51 production line, but that wont come online fully until ~2027/8.
Even if you wanted to pay SIG for 500,000 rifles per year, you wouldn't be able to shoot them with the current ammo production rate that SIG can manage (since they're the only ones running a production line for the new brass/steel hyrbid cartridge case)
In the contract award announcement, the army even said wider unit fielding is predicated on ammo stores and production rate, nothing else really.
Also it's a 10-year fixed price contract with new order windows open every year during the 10-year window. Just because the army is CURRENTLY buying ~10-20k year doesn't mean they couldn't make that 100k/year once they have a good supply of the ammo in 5-8 years.
I just looked and .223 and .30-03 didn't exist until the year military rifles chambered in them started being handed out, while .308 had a whole 24 month head start
We have a good supply of 5.56 and M4s that aren't going anywhere anytime soon and we know are perfectly useable in combat. That doesn't mean we can't ALSO have a new rifle on the backburner in various stages of development/deployment, hell it could be 15 years until they finally end up replacing more than 200,000 M4s, but that doesn't mean the M7 is a "failure" or didn't do what it was designed to.
If you honestly think your argument makes any real point of value, I assume you're just kinda dumb.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>it was real in my mind and besides think of how successful the contract COULD be if they just negotiate something differently than what's already been agreed through FY2033
Holy shit dude
1 year ago
Anonymous
lmao, how salty are you that it's already outpaced the SCAR in deliveries?
The SIG israelite gets more orders every year and you keep seething and screaming that it's actually a failure.
Honestly it's been hilarious watching you in these NGSW threads over the last year and a half. First it was the Bullpup was TOTALLY gonna win, then when SIG won there was TOTALLY gonna be a GOA protest, then when that died the army was only gonna order a handful of them, then the FY23 budget came out and they were ordering thousands and it became they'll order the same or less in FY24 because it's dead/dying, and then the FY24 budget draft came out showing 17,000+ more rifles bought and now you're going for "well when PREVIOUS rifles entered service they bought a lot more per year"
keep going I'm enjoying this.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>watching you
Fricking hell dude, meds
1 year ago
Anonymous
All these words and not one to explain why it’s a good choice
So many manufacturing malfunctions for a piece of shit that costs $7k.
Frick sig, they're Black folk.
What happened this time?
Everyone who's ever bought an AR-15 is outrageous the Army has switched to a different cartridge and rifle. They feel abandoned and unloved because they are, and they're hyped up little 22 magnums are going the way of the dodo while 30 caliber rains supreme yet again after a nice little nap.
>.30 cal reigns supreme
>new cartridge is .277
What did he mean by this?
uh, duh its called ROUNDing up
>uh duhhh
Ok moron
sounds like cope to me
ESL belong on PrepHole
literally not a 30 cal, moron.
I thought the new cartridge was 6mm ARC
Based af frick 5.56 Black person amerishits. .30 cal and 8mm Mauser are the lord's caliber
amen brother. let's just use a hybrid case and overcharge .308. frick that varmint round.
BECAUSE SIGGERS.
AND NEWLY RETIRED ARMY BRASS WITH SIG MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS AND A NEW BASE MODEL CORVETTE. AUTOMATIC OF COURSE AND RUN ON 87 FOREVER
M4'S ON TAU CETI AND ZETA RETICULI YOU DISGUSTING AS FRICK SIGGER
Copied the USMC's H&K nepotism
Well yeah but I thought there might have been a specific new problem. Like I just found out about the handguard flex the other day so I was wondering what else Sig managed to frick up
that's what i was referring to
Such as?
>Frick sig, they're Black folk.
You didn't need to say anything else
Pretty much.
FPBP
frick siggers
>Obsessed
says the homosexual instantly replying to my post kek
kys sig internet defence force
Go make yet another copy pasted thread about the m7 or p320 nerd or post yet another twitter thread. Fricking nerd.
Is it the handguard flexing and not returning to center?
Because the army was too far into SIG's pockets to pick an actually innovative rifle
>actually innovative rifle
None of the rifle entries were innovative and Sig produced the only innovative SAW, you coping and seething Black person.
>source: my ass
The Textron one with the cased telescoped ammo was better
There are rummors case telescoping is plagued by accuracy problems induced by moving chamber misalignments and incompatibility with VLD bullets like 6.8 GP.
It passed tests with surrogate bullet, but with real 6.8 GP it flopped.
Not him, and I’m not a Sig hater, obviously they had the superior contenders, but how exactly is sig’s m250 innovative? It’s a basic b***h short action beltfed MG in a new caliber.
How is an MG that is lighter than its replacement and fires a bullet that has almost 2x the effective range NOT innovative?
If the army hadn't decided to get rid of the quick-change barrel it could've even been a viable alternative to the M240.
I’ll give them points for the weight, but really the m250 is in the league of 7.62 machineguns, not 5.56. The ammo carried is going to result in a net heavier weapon system.
Nevertheless, the KAC AMG exists. It weighs 13 pounds and it’s recoil is near-imperceptible. So sig’s entry isn’t exactly on the cutting edge on machine gun technology.
>It weighs 13 pounds
13.9lbs and I'm pretty sure that's bare naked without a bipod.
XM250 is 14.5lbs with a suppressor and bipod.
It can blast through Russian body armor, it was literally designed to do so
They are also going to be issued with an optic that's able to auto-aim headshot targets from a mile away (see pic related)
>an optic that's able to auto-aim headshot targets from a mile away
but can it 360 noscope?
You're wrong about literally everything in your post, holy shit
>t. Asshurt Ivan
Shouldnt you be waiting for your daily ass ream by your nco
seeing M7gays think that a autoBDC in a LPVO turns a rifle in the hands of the typical 20-something army mouthbreather into a long range aimbot machine is one of the funniest developments of this shitshow
It's incredible. I shit you not that multiple times I've seen them swear that the BDC is enough and that windage at 500m+ won't matter because "beeg boolet go fast." There is a nearly 24" deviation at 500m from a 10mph crosswind for Fury.
It's literally just .270 Winchester out of a short barrel.
that was my first rifle caliber way back in the day :tear:
I'm not even sure how all that stuff got started. I remember seeing Vortex's patent documents posted ages ago and they made it pretty obvious how the scope works.
It's because a good chunk of the proponents do not know anything about long range shooting, or shooting in general. They unironically think that getting the range down is the hardest element when it is by far and away the easiest in regards to making a shot that's really going out there.
>It can blast through Russian body armor
Why would you invest in a gun to counter threats that simply don't exist?
Im andmmm
I’m amazed how few anons get this.
ruccians can barely make it 20mi outside their border anyway who cares
Russians can afford body armor?
They meant "near
-peer adversary"
The Chinese definitely aren't going to bother with armor, either. It can't even put down American rebels because Level IV is commonplace now.
This gun is a moronic cash grab.
I can no longer tell when this is said as a joke or from a troll vs genuine belief by Siggers
Honestly glad I never bought Sigshit despite living in New England where it is held in such high regard because there's a manufacturing plant in NH as well as training facility. Every person I know with a gun has a Sig lmao
This picture just makes me mad that the tens of thousands I pay in taxes each year are going to Black folk and goblinos to have this stuff instead of me.
egg carton body armor
>Russians
>body armor
lel
>Russian body armor
Except they have none. You could go to war witha 10/22 against them
>12/22
That's what an M4 with a barrel shorter than 18" is anyway.
To make /k/ seethe
>2010 /k/: WE WANT BATTLE RIFLES. BATTLE RIFLES ARE CHAD
>2020 /k/: WHY DID THE MILITARY ADOPT A BATTLE RIFLE?
Take me back
But this battle rifle is moronic and israeli.
Incorrect, israeli battle rifles are highly tuned kebab removal machines
This is lederhosen made of weinerschnitzel
Canada banned a ton of assault rifles by name, but the Tarvor wasn't one of them, so this may be the leaf gun of choice in a few years time.
SIG managed to take all the soul out of a battle rifle somehow
>muh soul
Just admit you wanted wood furniture becuase Bmorons just can't leave the 1960s in the past.
because
>"WE WANT A BATTLE RIFLE"
>monkey paw: "okay, but it's made by SIG"
>"FRICK"
>"okay, but it's made by SIG"
it's more like
>"okay, but it's a soulless AR platform ripoff"
if it was just an AR-10 that would be cool but it's bad instead
needed more polymer and less aluminum
Short stroke gas piston is based, especially since the rifle is meant to be run with a suppressor 24/7.
I get that DI is mechanically simpler and much cheaper to manufacture, with a few benefits in mud tests and shit, but those few benefits aren't really worth getting your panties in a twist over.
I doubt you COULD make a DI AR-10 in the same size footprint as the XM7.
yeah but the (scaled up in this case) AR-18 action is trash, heavier and taller than an equivalent DI and buffer tube action
the only benefit is that it doesn't fart out the ejection port and you can remove the buffer tube
Sure, but a DI action would take up more length and fart in your mouth, we already know gas blowback is horrible for your health, the army doesn't want the VA having to pay out in 20 years when the boots who were running this rifle start to see their lungs fail.
>take up more length
folding stocks are a meme, just use a non-collapsing polymer rifle stock (A1 length) and move on with your life
>fart in your mouth
don't be left handed I guess
gas blowback is not so bad with the lead-free primers but yeah NOx is... gross
you'll be fine unless you're huffing MG fumes all day
>>fart in your mouth
>don't be left handed I guess
Doesn't even do that if you're left handed
Suppressed I get smacked on the right cheek by unburnt powder from shitty Winchester ammo, that's about it.
/k/ US mil criticis BTFO
Pentagon is the Chad
This is a monkey's paw wish. It's worse than no battle rifle at all.
>adopt shitty rifle based on shitty concept of using low power ammo for training and hot ammo for penetration
>not direct impingement so now like very other nation the US will have a rifle that shits itself when it gets dirt
Why not just make an AR with an polymer cartridge and a new caliber? It would be better than this shit.
compensation for small penis
>you have a gun that scares me? Now I'm thinking about your dick! Checkmate, gun owner"
Sorry to inform you, but thinking about dicks is extremely gay
it really is a dumb idea
there is already so much support for the AR platform, they really should have just made an AR in the caliber they want
also this new rifle is heavy, which is going to be a problem if the army continues to lower standards and push "diversity and inclusion" and recruit women, trannies and gays
Two (2) charging handles
It's stupid but it's one of trivial reasons why they won
To penetrate armor (which it doesn't do) allow longer engagement ranges for the hills and mountains of Afghanistan (which we left) and uh, well, the machinegun is pretty good
they won by default when the only competition of note was a bullpup, nobody wants that shit
>Cohen.
The russian big bad has body armor now! The US needs a bigger booooolit for muh OVERMATCH, so say the MIC.
Turns out they probably can't afford to issue it. And if they did, they'd probably be sold to the black market and replaced with egg cartons.
>we're going to replace several million M4s and M16s in armories with 110,000 of these
no, they're replacing ~110,000 frontline M4's and ~20,000 frontline M249s with ~110,000 XM7s and ~20,000 XM250s.
Everyone else keeps their M4s.
and after sometime everyone will have xm5 or 7 as you called it for unknown to me reason
They haven't announced any plan to do as such.
For now all they've announced is they're buying ~110,000 rifles to be fielded by the frontline combat units.
What they decide to do in 5-10+ years is anyone's guess, but right now they've officially not made any decision.
As for XM5/XM7, it was renamed because Colt already has an M5 rifle and to avoid any potential lawsuits or problems the army pre-emptively changed the name to the XM7 which will become the M7 when it enters service later this year.
>m7
>it's not a caseless 5.7 suppressed PCC
it's over
>after sometime
Which has never happened before with a service rifle
The '03 Springfield, Garand, M14, M16, they were all rolled out by the millions within their first five years issued
Im fairly sure its because, while the threat of enhanced body armor necessitating the new cartridge is real, no one has deployed it in mass, and the army isnt sure how necessary the rifle will be. Maybe theyll never fully upgrade.
Honestly it feels like the US military is finally adapting to the fact that noone can really match them in terms of investment, and even if china can get close, they just dont have the decades of heavy R&D investment that we do
Sick, now we can't even crossroad with our own.
The MG
Battle Rifles are too heavy
Assault Rifles are too weak against modern body armor
The Sig Spear bridges the gap between Battle Rifles and Assault Rifles. This is afforded due to modern material science, allowing higher chamber pressures than previous Assault Rifles while also remaining relatively light
>but muh recoil!
I've fired one, its fine.
it has the weight of a battle rifle and the ballistics of an intermediate
but it has better ballistics than either .308 or 6.5 mememoor
it's also lighter than MOST other battle rifles. And none of those other battle rifles were designed to shoot an 80k PSI round.
>Better ballistics than either .308 or 6.5 creedmoor
>For some reason they cant go back to .308 and make it better saving time and money.
>Oh wait they want this thing to be "Expensive" so they can transfer more wealth from the American tax payer to the elite
Nothing to see here.
This, also moronic that they want a new service eifle that also is a dmr but they cut that rifle shorts as frick, and as seen by the commercial hybrid ammo that’s available. It affects ballistics alot
>ballistics of an intermediate
Dude it’s a 3000ft*lb cartridge. In what world is this intermediate?
needs a longer barrel to make my pp the big pp
Yes it does. It’s cool to have a really short gun in such an OP cartridge but the 6.8 is nerfed in the 13” barrel. 20 inches minimum for 6.8.
and ditch the folding stock
can we get some wood and steel up in here?
A telescoping stock like that on the mk14 EBR would be dope.
Wood and steel is in the past bro, welcome to the era of aluminum and polymer.
>The Sig Spear bridges the gap between Battle Rifles and Assault Rifles.
By having the weight of a battle rifle and the effect on armor of an assault rifle?
Post guns.
One of the lightest weight BRs ever made for it's capabilities, and more lethality than either .308 or 6.5meemoor, both of which can do considerably more against armor than 5.56.
This doesn't mean 6.8x51 (or 7.62) can pen the armor you're talking about, but it IS more effective than 5.56 even if neither one pens on the first shot.
>makes praise revolve around effect on armor
>"it IS more effective than 5.56 even if neither one pens on the first shot."
Do SIG shill have actual brain parasites or something? Between not understanding windage, thinking a BDC turns the common grunt into a sniper, and this assumption that people are really getting nailed multiple times at range by infantry rifles, it's like all their knowledge about small arms combat comes from videogames.
I'm just tired of morons like you pretending it's supposed to be some sniper round penetrating high tier body armor when it was NEVER intended to do that. It's intended to go through light cover like a single layer brick wall or some wood or sheet metal.
BUH MUH ARMOR PEN as if armor pen = penetrating BODY armor, not just generic greater penetration through ANY cover (the actual point of the program).
>I'm just tired of morons like you pretending it's supposed to be some sniper round penetrating high tier body armor when it was NEVER intended to do that.
Ironic, considering skeptics like me were the ones always saying this and it was your ilk posting otherwise, but you do you famalam.
>BUH MUH ARMOR PEN as if armor pen = penetrating BODY armor
No one refers to barrier penetration as armor penetration you literal moron, holy shit.
>not just generic greater penetration through ANY cover (the actual point of the program).
I cannot tell if you're being serious or not, this was never alluded to in any of the competition specs.
> as if armor pen = penetrating BODY armor not just generic greater penetration through ANY cover
Do you refer to cinder blocks, sheet metal and foliage as "armor"??
He's moronic.
>enetrating high tier body armor when it was NEVER intended to do that.
Then why did you bring it up first? You disingenuous homosexual
>One of the lightest weight BRs ever made for it's capabilities
It’s 13.5lbs.
>and more lethality than either .308 or 6.5meemoor
Not in any practical sense with bullets of similar construction. Explain to me where there is a lethal hit with 6.8 that would not be a lethal hit with the other 2 in the same place.
>both of which can do considerably more against armor than 5.56.
Still requires multiple shots to penetrate
You didn’t post guns. Hmm I wonder why. Even tiny ones like this are fine.
>It’s 13.5lbs.
loaded, with optic and suppressor and other accessories.
A fully kitted M4 can push 11+lbs too.
>A fully kitted M4 can push 11+lbs too.
No it can't.
Not him, but yes it can with a Vortex Razor and PEQ-15, RC2, sling, and loaded magazine, it gets a little over 11 pounds. If you replace the Razor with an Aimpoint and the RC2 with the Mini 2, you're back to around 10 pounds.
Lmao yes they can, and often do. Try actually being a grunt.
Which is a 23% increase before factoring in mags. It’s another 2.4lbs of ammo with just 6 mags which is a 40% increase
Don't forget the best part, a combat loadoat of 140 rounds. It's comical.
that's because the M4 is overweight and bad
Literally it still can't penetrate body armor
>The Sig Spear bridges the gap between Battle Rifles and Assault Rifles.
By weighing more than an M-14 and shooting a round that's weight virtually the same and is 20k psi hotter than M80 Ball?
that weighs virtually the same as and is*
Fricking thumb typing
MICs gonna MIC
cant stop the MICkers
Because muh overmatch.
Never forget that the Army spent twenty years working on a new, lightweight polymer case-telescoped round that would reduce the infantryman's burden (or more likely, allow him to carry more stuff like radios, batteries, and explosives). And then, at the last second, a couple generals who were obsessed with the supposed range advantage the Taliban had in mountaintop fights trashed the whole program by rewriting the program requirements to demand a heavy bullet traveling at warp speed. And now, the infantry won't have enough ammo for a long firefight, much less enough spare weight allowance to carry the smart munitions they'll need.
Polymer case technology is rapidly advancing too. It's not like it just stopped when this competition ended. The goofy multi-piece case shit already looks outdated and will be a forgotten curiosity within a few years.
Sig won and you haven't been able to cope with it since
The taxpayers who fund this and the soldiers who use it lose.
>The goofy multi-piece case shit already looks outdated and will be a forgotten curiosity within a few years.
>*he doesn't know*
Hmu when 5.56 can go 4k fps out of a 16" barrel
I mean, it's one way to get Govment Subsidized Bubba's Hottest Pissenist loads to fire without exploding cases.
A bridge tech if anything. Until we can easily rework a new case alloy/poly whatever they go with.
Guns a meme but the idea of frickin 80k PSI kinda tickles my innards
>you WILL fire thee 100K PSI 5.56
>and you WILL like it
TIME TO PLINK BOI- *durrrrrsh*
>steel cope case on a joke cartridge
Get with the times grandpa. Hybrid cases are old and busted. Thin wall stainless steel is the new hotness.
Fellas, I don't understand, what's so revolutionary about those hybrid casings?
Couldn't the same performance be achieved with, you know, ultra cheap full steel casings?
No, because the traditional brass cartridge is achieved through several drawing and ironing steps followed by annealing steps. What you get at the end is a one-piece cartridge where the head of the case is work-hardened, the walls less so, and the mouth of the case is annealed by just heating up that section (military brass is discolored near the mouth and left that way on purpose as part of milspec requirement, commercial cases usually get a final wash and polish). This gives you a case head that can withstand the pressure when backed by the breech, a case wall that expands against the chamber during firing, and a mouth that can be tensioned to hold the bullet on its own, with the crimp being assurance in military settings.
When you make a full steel case, now you have to use a steel alloy that won't frick up your extractor but also gives you all these neat properties. You can't really get that, so the compromise is steel cases that don't actually expand as much as brass. You try to now add the performance being achieved with 6.8 Sig and you'll be using an alloy that's going to frick up all your drawing dies due to hardness and toughness requirements, possibly get all sorts of problems like case ruptures during firing or even damaging the bullet jacket during loading.
Damn, didn't expect to hear a good explaination on this basket weaving forum. Thanks
Any time, fren
>Couldn't the same performance be achieved with, you know, ultra cheap full steel casings?
It's called thinwall steel or thinwall stainless steel cases. It's what FN's rifle in
uses.
Brass seals better against the chamber which helps with pressure and it’s also easier to extract. Steel cases cause more erosion in the chamber which is already going to suck with the specs of this round. Not saying it can’t be done with just steel, but there are reasons brass is used
Hybrid case alows to make case head from high strength steel. You can't draw case from the high strength steel, it neet to be ductile. Ductility and strength are opposite sides of the properties. Hybrid case solves this problem, head and walls can be made from different materials with different properties.
Higher head strength = higher working pressure. More power from the same barrel and powder charge. "Free lunch".
>But... why?
"Butt" why not anon?
In all seriousness, I actually like the XM7, but more as a replacement for DMR type roles, not for a standard infantry rifle.
I am actually more interested in the ballistics of a hotter 5.56 using sig's casing tech. I wonder if something like Geiselle's enhanced BCG (specifically the carpenter 158 steel bolt) could take the pressure increase of such a 5.56 round.
5.56 at 3500-4000 would be Kino.
5.56 at 35-4000 is basically a more compact 22-250 (think 7.62x51 to M2 ball); to the best of my understanding 22-250 has a similar level of energy to a 7.62x39 which is still sufficiently controllable so a souped up 5.56 wouldnt be a bad idea
And range + Velocity is the most important design criteria but god forbid they pick a bullpup
Bullpups suck worse than Sigs.
Verification not required.
got mech dog carry ammo soon dont you worry
yep. the XM7 is a rifle to fight the last war. Doesn't make ANY sense for a highly mechanized and urban Pacific war that we expect to fight by the end of the decade
SIG USA has successfully captured the Army procurement apparatus. Corruption is increasingly evident across all of US government including armed forces.
Even leafs are replacing their pistols with P320s
Canada is run by israelites
>do think purchasing all our small arms from one manufacturer would be a logistically and financially sound decision?
>NO ONLY A israelite WOULD THINK OF SUCH THINGS
Man, I'm glad you'll never be in any position to make procurement decisions.
>just have a monopoly on your weapons production
Man, I'm glad you'll never be in any position to make procurement decisions.
reinventing the wheel lol. every general prepared to fight the last war.
>pircrel is the guy she told you not to worry about
FN IWS puts siggers on suicide
How so? It's not like FY24 budget saw any reduction in M7/M250 orders.
SIG are laughing all the way to the bank.
>We should've adopted .280 Brit in the first place
>piss weak cartridge
What is this?
.264 licc
>it can't pen armor any better than the cartridge it was supposed to replace to pen armor, but if it lands a hit despite more recoil and less ammo the bruise on their ribs will be slightly wider
Considering it was never designed to penetrate high tier body armor, I don't really understand your point.
It was designed to go through light cover (walls, unarmored vehicles, etc) better than 5.56. It does that. It's ALSO flatter shooting, heavier, and faster.
The idea that it was SUPPOSED to be able to penetrate level 4 rifle plates is just fuddlore fantasy cope you dumb fricks made up to shit on it.
>The idea that it was SUPPOSED to be able to penetrate level 4 rifle plates is just fuddlore fantasy cope you dumb fricks made up to shit on it.
you are absolutely fricking deluded if you think the detractors were the one spewing the armor pen meme and not the supporters. like straight up brain damaged.
Who the frick cares who started it?
I don't give a single frick who started saying it, if you're STILL saying it, you're a moron. And the people who STARTED saying it, are ALSO morons.
>YOU JUST SAID THIS TO SHIT ON IT
>no we didn't the whole reason it got brought up at all was because the pro_NGSW crows swore it would go through IV plates for weeks on end
>WHO CARES WHO STARTED IT
are you a woman?
>Who the frick cares who started it?
Everyone. Because you started it. Then backpedaled faster than primetime could.
Are you israeli?
Penning peer body armor was the latest official justification, moron. Before that, it was range in afghanistan and in the program before NGSW it was stopping power for CQB.
You're continuing the same series of rationalisations, but unlike the official copers you're denying the literal official justifications.
>was the latest official justification
Show me ANYWHERE that OFFICIALLY claims this.
I've read the entire original project PPON that started the program, as well as watched the entire contract award announcement press conference.
You cannot say that the whole point of the program was to increase blind barrier penetration capability and expect to be taken seriously. Why are you posting like you're on the verge of crying?
I never said that was the ENTIRE point of the program, that was the ONLY point of penetration needs stated by the program ( you know, the specific thing we're talking about here?)
The overall goal of the program was to increase lethal engagement range while keeping ammo commonality throughout the squad.
>I never said that was the ENTIRE point of the program
>generic greater penetration through ANY cover (the actual point of the program).
please refer to
, are you a vegana-haver, because you argue like one.
Yes, again in the context SPECIFICALLY of penetration, the point of THIS program was NOT to design a round to penetrate level 4 plates.
>aaaaaaaa it was actually barrier pen all along
There's no reasoning with a liar like you.
I'm asking for the proof you said existed OFFICIALLY.
if asking you to provide proof of a claim you said was OFFICIAL justification, how the frick am I supposed to believe ANYTHING you claim?
This is just wrong. Its supposed to give basic infantry the ability to reach out to 600 yards, thump through light-skinned vehicles, and defeat special threat plates (not level IV) in a similar size and weight package to 5.56 rifles. It does this. Its actually a great idea for an intermediate cartridge.
>M7
>a similar size and weight package to 5.56 rifles
>an intermediate cartridge.
Okay I'm starting to think that these people are either shitposters or genuinely mentally ill.
Black person have a nice day, the army themselves refer to it as an intermediate cartridge.
ACHTUALLY homosexuals like yourself will point out it's a full-sized rifle cartridge, but so fricking what? The army is calling it intermediate.
Active denial of reality, more support for my theory.
Again, blame the most well funded military in the world for making that claim, not the people repeating what they say.
You just seem like a pedantic homosexual the more you dig your heels in on that one in particular.
A round with a135gr. projectile and 80k psi chamber pressure is not intermediate in any way shape or form. Do you consider 6.5 Creed and 7.62 NATO intermediate?
see
Even if they said that, they're wrong. It's nto intermediate, and you thinking it is just because some nimrod with a rank said it was makes me wonder what you know about shooting period.
Anywho, it's a nice Sunday and I'm going to spend it shooting steel at 300m, not arguing with a likely gunless troll having fits of autism rage.
Get over it, the round was created after the army ran several research programs on a replacement intermediate caliber round, they determined a larger round than 5.56 was needed, so they settled on 6.5-6.8mm bullet this eventually finalized to a 6.8x51 bullet/catridge.
Since all of this originally started with the goal of making a new intermediate caliber, that's what the army calls it even if by traditional standards, it is full-size.
>the army says it's an intermediate round so it's an intermediate round
my guy you are actually moronic, I hope you're realizing this
You're also the moron that thinks the army wants it to pen level 4 armor despite never having said that's what they want.
Good thing I'm 31 then.
You're 31 and you have the emotional posting style of a 14 year old redditor? Damn.
>the emotional posting style
LE REDDIT POSTING MAYMAY?!@?!?!
"reddit" posting as a meme was created to let newbies (like yourself) call someone out for "reddit" posting which was just allowing yourself to signal to everyone else that you were a newbie.
"Reddit" posting as a format style has existed since before PrepHole even existed, since it's a stylistic holdover that was popularized on tech forums and other online forum communities in the late '90s and early '00s.
My dude are you okay?
Did you read the first line and assume it was some breakdown or something?
I'm fine, I'm more worried about you since you've soundly outed yourself as a newbie.
> I'm more worried about you since you've soundly outed yourself as a newbie.
only a sigger could post this without any hint of irony.
Only a braindead moron thinks that me pointing out how the gun isn't shit and does exactly what the army asked for somehow makes me a "sigger".
I don't even own ANY SIG products.
I've got a Benelli M4 and I'm debating on AR, but haven't made any decisions yet.
>I don't even own ANY SIG products.
you don't own any guns period dude lol
Besides my Benelli M4 I also have an old Remington 870.
I live in a state where handgun purchase is dumb and ARs are also restricted and harder to get generic models.
In this state the only easy guns to buy are shotguns or bolt action rifles.
>In this state the only easy guns to buy are shotguns or bolt action rifles.
Why aren't you being specific about the state, that narrows it down to a small handful already.
Probably a Canuck LARPing as an american
Yeah it's, what, MD, NJ, CT, MA, and maybe just recently WA?
NJgay here
I feel a bizarre mixture of relief and annoyance that getting my MP15 was much, much easier than getting my Glock was
Places that make it so handguns *and* semiauto rifles are hard to get are even fewer than that, as
described. So it's a state that makes it hard to get self-loading rifles and pistols, but self-loading shotguns like the M4 are g2g...my money is on him not even being American.
It's probably MD because of their moronic "heavy' barrel rule, which has no real definition from what I can determine making ANY AR somewhat dubious unless it specifically calls itself MD compliant.
Realistically NY due to the new semi auto license scheme
>I've got a Benelli M4
Then post it
>You're also the moron that thinks the army wants it to pen level 4 armor
nah, but cool backtracking attempt you noguns moron, lmfao
You have to be 18 to post here
>intermediate caliber round, they determined a larger round than 5.56 was needed
>larger
>than intermediate
>nooooooo it’s still intermediate
Post hand and guns
>"Even if it's not, they said so!"
>THE *AMRY* SAID SO
the army has repeatedly proven its capacity for moronation which anyone who has served would be able to tell you, use your brain you hyperemotional homosexual, if you think this shit is actually intermediate then you might as well consider any full-powered rifle round intermediate as well
>the army themselves refer to it as an intermediate cartridge.
they're wrong then, if they said the sky was green would you believe them? because that's essentially what they're doing here, if they actually said that at all.
The army also says a man can cut off his dick and be a woman. That doesn’t make it true
I really wish you could step back and take in how fricking stupid you are. It would take your breath away.
>80,000 psi
>intermediate round
it shouldn't be possible to be as fricking moronic as you are, how are you managing it?
>in a similar size and weight package to 5.56 rifles
If that was the goal they failed
>Its supposed to give basic infantry the ability to reach out to 600 yards
I don't think you fully grasp what 600 yards looks like, how rare having a line of sight that far is in a battlefield, or how relatively little a 1-8x LPVO is going to matter at that distance, especially when you put it in the hands of infantry that I can tell you from personal experience have a striking inability to take a shot at a 300 yard pop-up even with a 4x ACOG.
>in a similar size and weight package to 5.56 rifles
13+ pounds fully loaded and a full yard in length...
>It does this
It doesn't, categorically.
>Its actually a great idea for an intermediate cartridge.
.277 SIG Fury is not an intermediate cartridge, full stop.
Do the proponents of this rifle actually know anything about it?
READ, homie. READ.
Incredible how much more sophisticated, understated, and svelte this thing is compared to the bloated crap from the NGWS project. And nobody even knew about it until it was already completed.
because it failed out in the selection round.
No it didn't. It's from a completely different program called the Individual Weapons System.
>It's from a completely different program called the Individual Weapons System.
FN submitted this weapon for NGSW as well, here is their press release for it lol.
https://fnamerica.com/press-releases/fn-selected-produce-two-prototype-options-u-s-army-next-generation-squad-automatic-rifle-program/
READ homie. READ.
>The company can confirm earlier speculation that one of the submissions is a lightweight machine gun and the other is the FN HAMR™, a heat adaptive modular rifle.
>FN HAMR
Clearly not the rifle mnetioned in the post you just quoted.
>Clearly not the rifle mnetioned in the post you just quoted.
Sure, you can pretend that if you want.
HAMR is a SCAR variant
>HAMR is a SCAR variant
pretending this also isn't a SCAR variant, lmao.
Stop being a disingenuous c**t and accept you're wrong, you little shit.
Does anyone have more details on this, i only remember hearing it was designed for socom and that's about it
Frankly i think they should have just made a steel or polymer case 5.56 ++p effectively
Why the frick would we make a new cartridge if it can't pen armor? Oh yay the gun has a Uber scope and Uber range, but what if the enemy is behind cover, is moving, or you simply don't notice them 500 m away? It seems like a very niche situation to engage combat at that range
> but what if the enemy is behind cover, is moving, or you simply don't notice them 500 m away?
my running theory is these people think IRL combat works like a videogame where you catch entire platoons right out in the open and then when you engage them they just crouch or go prone on the spot and let you pick them off one by one, like ARMA AI. in reality infantry engaging infantry half a kilometer away with rifles is going to have very questionable results, even if you have a 8x power scope and a hotloaded magnum round....
>my running theory is these people think IRL combat works like a videogame where you catch entire platoons right out in the open and then when you engage them they just crouch or go prone on the spot and let you pick them off one by one
Realistically, with the other systems being fielded to go along with it, any infantry force is just going to be fricked either way.
>Small, squad launchable, suicide drones
>connected displays/HUDS that can get real time intel, and target highlights WITH thermal fusion optics.
>integrated weapon guidance via the same HUD
The scope is there to fix you in place with you get killed a half dozen other ways.
>The scope is there to fix you in place with you get killed a half dozen other ways.
Sounds like a super-dee-duper task for the squad DMRs and MGs and not something every rifleman should be tasked with.
>The scope is there to fix you in place with you get killed a half dozen other ways.
If the goal is to pin people in place with suppressive fire why are you gimping ammo capacity? If you aren’t expecting the rifle to get kills than doesn’t something like 5.56 make more sense because you can carry so much more?
Don’t give me that bullshit about “well it suppresses targets better because bigger boolit”
We saw how that worked In Afghanistan and Iraq; i.e. it didn’t with 5.56. Even now with the Russo-Ukrainian war most engagements are at ranges where magnified optics would help tremendously.
>We saw how that worked In Afghanistan and Iraq; i.e. it didn’t with 5.56
Really now? It didn’t send people into cover? If they were 600+ yards away then maybe because you’re missing by a lot, but news flash most of the world isn’t Afghanistan.
>Even now with the Russo-Ukrainian war most engagements are at ranges where magnified optics would help tremendously
No fricking shit. When did I say optics are bad? What does having a scope have to do with 6.8 or the XM7? The scope was developing independently of the rifle and ammo.
What’s the point of having an Optic that can see the enemy on a rifle that is hundreds of meters out of your engagement range Anon? You’re slowly getting to the point.
Do you think 5.56 hits a wall and stops at 600m or what? Or are you one of those people who thinks 1000 yard shots are no child’s play with only a 8x zoom?
Basically in what circumstances can 6.8 suppress an enemy where 5.56 can not if both are using the same optic?
Because it's fast as frick boy and has good bc and sectional density to shred armor and turn tissue into jelly
Because
Grifter's paradise
Just like with the Future Warrior/Future Soldier programs of the 90s and early 00s the only winners are the defense companies involved
>no polymer ammo
Shit and cringe.
Has anyone actually shot the actual full oomph the so called Sig fury round pray tell
At least this one doesn't look like a fricking fish.
It WILL fail anyway, no matter what you autists say. They WILL walk back on the contract and keep the M4/M16/Big Black AR-15/Whatever.
America is a dead end nation.
I keep saying it doesn't even have to be walked back
The contract is miniscule enough that damage control was always in place for them to easily go "Yep, we're very happy with our new SCAR-H/HK417/AR10/M14 replacement" and not even be lying
I WISH it looked like a fricking fish.
i hate that it looks like the mag was inserted backwards
It was designed to be used by Black folk, so no surprise.
You will never be a real gun. YWNBARG
Most people here who try to write off the m7 in about 1 sentence or just lazily "it's just (example that isn't even remotely close to what it is being compared to) it's all a scam" are dumbasses or people who can't get over sig winning the contract since their totally game changing bullpup whatever was definitely the better choice.
it's not as good as it could be therefore I hate it
How could it be better?
lighter, softer recoiling
20" barrel
so both larger and lighter weight, while ALSO reducing the recoil?
seems like physics would contradict that possibility.
Not him but playing with the idea:
A long-stroke piston has lighter perceived recoil than short-stroke pistons because it feels more like a push than a few light hits
C405/7050 series aluminum could replace 7075 to cut a few ounces while retaining strength. Or in the case of the handguard, keep the weight and strength it to increase rigidity.
The longer barrel poses a problem. Maybe have it really thick around the chamber but tapered to a pencil profile? Or use a barrel sleeve design like on tanks/ what Armalite did with the original AR-10 against Stoner's recommendation
DI
You'd need to sacrifice the folding stock and use more polymers but it wouldn't even be hard
the barrel is negotiable
Hmmmm if only there was a way to increase barrel length and therefore velocity meaning a lower pressure round could be used, all while not increasing OAL
bullpups are gay tho
Which is the inclusivity the modern army wants
Reminder that the SIG round averages over 80-90k psi while still being the slowest round. Reminder that the army required over 10k round barrel life. Reminder that SIG’s mat sci group couldn’t pull off polymer designs so they had to change to the shitty hybrid case, yet can supposedly somehow make better barrels than companies like rheinmetal.
I pity the poor grunt who gets the first failure.
if you can't understand why a (gay) military doesn't want its infantry weapon to be 99% parts compatible with civilian weapons, you're ngmi
Because it makes bullpup gays cry and they deserve to suffer for having shitty European tastes
RIP AR
Because corruption and moronation, that's why.
>ctrl+f drone
>0 results found
smart scope + ivas feeding aimbot tier aiming advice to grunt
+
grunt with heavier and harder hitting round
=
every infantry squad now has a fighting chance against enemy drones
=
US has widespread anti-drone capability built into every infantry soldier when countries are still figuring out how to use drones
>smart scope + ivas feeding aimbot tier aiming advice to grunt
Which can be applied to any rifle
>+
>grunt with heavier and harder hitting round
>=
>every infantry squad now has a fighting chance against enemy drones
What? How are grunts able to pick out drones from the sky with a rifle?
>every infantry squad now has a fighting chance against enemy drones
Well that's officially the most moronic explanation for the M7 I've seen so far, congrats.
rifle volley fire numbnuts
are you seriously telling me between a chance to shoot down a drone and having no chance to shoot down a drone you'd pick the latter? this isn't a tactic done in isolation, it's like a CIWS-level last ditch resort last layer of the survivability onion option too, so don't misinterpret
>kek he’s doubling down
You've never shot anything out of the air have you? Post shotgun.
A couple things. First, why does only 6.8 and this rifle have the ability to volley fire? Second, how does the scope coordinated multiple people aiming and firing at the same time? Third, if you are trying to hit flying targets far away why are you gimping ammo capacity and using a heavier recoiling round? And lastly, do you have any idea how CIWS even works? It’s computer controlled firing dipshit.
>are you seriously telling me between a chance to shoot down a drone and having no chance to shoot down a drone you'd pick the latter?
Are you seriously saying that you can only shoot into the sky with 6.8 and the XM7?
why not just stick the scope on a M4 if drones are what you are worried about? The drones your infantry would be fighting are basically cardboard or fiberglass. armor isn't really a concern then. Flip the switch to funny automatic and light the thing up.
Sure as shit beats fighting heavy recoil trying to make follow up shots even if your aiming point is being handed to you courtesy of a fancy scope.
The NGSW rifle is moronic. the MG has potential. But regardless we're now treating gun barrels as expendable when the potential future peer conflict would likely be costly in terms of manpower losses AND would be coupled with economic warfare and would result in lack of access of the US to non-fuel minerals.
IMHO we need to go with cheap plastic ammo that doesn't require a lot of manufacturing and doesn't require lots of critical resources. injection mold that shit for 0.00000002 cents on equipment that you can basically have in your garage.
>But regardless we're now treating gun barrels as expendable when the potential future peer conflict would likely be costly in terms of manpower losses AND would be coupled with economic warfare and would result in lack of access of the US to non-fuel minerals.
I'm not saying it's outside the realm of possibility, but if we ever get to the point where getting materials to make infantry rifles and ammunition is a strategic problem then we've probably got a whole lot of other big exciting problems to go along with it and might have to just play that one by ear.
>Sure as shit beats fighting heavy recoil trying to make follow up shots even if your aiming point is being handed to you courtesy of a fancy scope.
Because he’s moronic and that isn’t the purpose of the rifle. I think the XM7 is dumb as a standard issue replacement but it’s certainly not designed to shoot them from the sky
So we went from
>it was a LMG program and the rifle doesn’t matter
To
>it’s to penetrate body armor
To
>muh overmatch
And now to
>it’s to shoot drones out of the sky
Wow. I wonder what the next Sigger line will be. Any other ones I already forgot?
WHICH shotguns come with smart scopes as part of it's contract
>it was a LMG program and the rifle doesn’t matter
To
>it’s to penetrate body armor
To
>muh overmatch
And now to
literally never said anything apart from killing drones take your meds
>A couple things. First, why does only 6.8 and this rifle have the ability to volley fire? Second, how does the scope coordinated multiple people aiming and firing at the same time? Third, if you are trying to hit flying targets far away why are you gimping ammo capacity and using a heavier recoiling round? And lastly, do you have any idea how CIWS even works?
it's a troll
I honestly don’t think it is anymore. Maybe I’ve lost the ability to tell with so many shills and morons.
I'm going to buy one of these just to make /k/ seethe lmao
Long as you use your own money instead of mine, it's your cross to bear
>why?
Because if you don't want M4s on Mars you have to start somewhere, unfortunately at this point in time there's no significant leap if technology that's going to necessitate something that different which is why the fish gun wasn't going to make it.
>Because if you don't want M4s on Mars
I do want M4s on Mars. 1911s and M2s
also
I dont know what it is but I dislike rifles without fixed iron sights. I dont mind optics but I NEED fixed irons (no flip ups)
And I personally simply wouldn't buy a rifle with fixed iron sights. Ever.
Thats alright anon. How about carry handles ?
If it's collapsable maybe.
If it's like on the M16 or similar i'd rather eat a bullet.
damn ok brother
>somewhere out there is a 30-something loser spending his sunday soaking his keyboard with tears of rage as he defends a rifle he will never touch, let alone shoot
I like how to "win" you have to pretend I'm somehow angry and crying lmao
MIC grift
Expect this to get dropped and everyone goes back to the M4
>inb4 cope
This is such an ugly fricking abomination of a gun. It looks like it belongs in that "in-between" era of experimental guns that never took off, except this is the nightmare alternate reality where it did take off and got adopted.
>a bunch of skinnyfat nerds and obese bubbas reeing at each other about a weapons system they'll likely never put their stubby Cheeto snatchers on because they can't afford it/won't or can't join the military for a litany of psychological and physiological reasons
Never change /k/, this is why I still come here
I'm halfway convinced it was just to have caliber parity with MG adoption
The M250 is legitimately a good upgrade over the 249, and will probably take over the 240 as well just for weight considerations alone
>probably take over the 240 as well
There's no reason for it not to replace the 240 and 249 since it does everything the 240 does but better
The XM7 would be a good replacement for SDMRs
But increasing the rifleman's loadout by that much is moronic.
If the Army really cared about overmatch and replacing the M4, they would have asked for a rifle built from the ground up to fire 6mm ARC. They can even keep the hybrid case design to get even more range out of it. Or, if they're dead set on .277, they could resurrect and update 6.8 SPC with VLD bullets and the hybrid case, but they'll have to build a gun from the ground up again. There would still be a weight increase, but not 25-40% like
said. Magazines would still be a more reasonable size with decent capacity. Loadouts of the same weight would be around 150-180 rounds vs 180-210 with 5.56.
>There's no reason for it not to replace the 240 and 249 since it does everything the 240 does but better
It doesn't have a quick change barrel (by army choice, SIG offered it). so it's unsuitable for sustained fire MG roles that the M240 is capable of.
>Magazines would still be a more reasonable size with decent capacity. Loadouts of the same weight would be around 150-180 rounds vs 180-210 with 5.56.
Thats what kills me. It’s not that 5.56 is perfect but number of rounds matter and every way since the civil war has shown that. Something with 24-26 rounds isn’t as big of a loss (or weight increase) as going to 20 rounds of 6.8. You keep at least 80% of your total ammo vs 67%. When we inevitable switch back to 5.56 or something that holds 30 rounds or more it’ll be pitched as a 50% increase from 6.8 and makes our soldiers more lethal. Calling it now.
It's the inverse of what the marines did by requesting and adopting the M27 to replace the M249 but right after adoption they hoodwinked ordnance and said they're replacing their M4/16s with it instead.
The Army wanted to replace their 308 rifles and GPMG at the same time, so they adopted this. They're not gonna stop using their M4s.
>rains supreme
This is really weird. Is it even that much better than the M16? The US has discarded rifles before for this reason. It also seems like a scumbag move for the US to switch ammo for no reason. I thought part of the point was NATO all share the same ammo type.
I don't understand it
More Americans have class 4 plates than most armies. Figure it out.
>The .mil NEVER said AP was a requirement!
https://apps.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2021/Army/stamped/U_0603639A_4_PB_2021.pdf
This shit has been a thing since ICSR was trying to be rammed through by HK & SIG shills in the government.
TFB has a ton of articles about ICSR/SDMR/NGSW and MUH ARMOR PIERCING
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/02/08/m110a1-csass-sdmr-fielded-2018-advap-2019/
SIGgers think we all have short memories, I guess.
The ADVAP is tungsten carbide core. That goes against all the bullshit rumors people have come up with about AP capabilities.
I think the biggest issue is the two ammos. The Fury one is issued for combat, but training would be done another lower pressure one to preserve the gun. One, they suggests the Fury ammo degrades things quicker. Two, it sounds like a bad idea to train with anything other than what you will actually use.
>t sounds like a bad idea to train with anything other than what you will actually use.
not as big of a deal as you people are making this out to be. When I first came into the Army we trained with nothing but 55gr M193, but when deployed we were issued M855A1.
Because it creates jobs in flyover states
To piss you off. You specifically.
Nu-/k/ being fudds again, the thread
>noooo you can’t use 100+ years of combat lessons to make predictions about the future
>just get excited for the new thing
The irony of your statement is they are going back to the “every soldier is a marksman” which has been beaten to death already and isn’t true. Yes a built in rangefinder and drop compensator will help. Yes a LPVO will help. Those can be applied to any rifle though.
A heavy rifle, with heavy ammo, less capacity and total combat load, that recoils more, isn’t a winning design. We can get higher recoil than 5.56 because that’s baby tier recoil but a 13.5lb rifle isn’t light. Anyone saying lift more doesn’t lift and hasn’t carried shit for very far.
To go through Russian body armor, which they appear to have already run out of in Ukraine ~6 months ago, and Chinese body armor, which you can buy on wish.com and is made of a single layer aluminum foil.
We always freak out and try to develop tech to counter the fantasy horseshit the potential enemy claims their equipment can do instead of what it actually can do. See: hypersonic missiles, ICBMS, and sperging about the Russian's magic radar weapon that turns planes off pre-Ukraine.
5.56 just ain't gonna do it no more
308 can chamber 7.62x51 and so can the Spear
But what I can afford right now is the AR-10 in 308/7.62
And I can get more yards and kinetic energy from a 308 vs 6.8
Yet, the 6.8 is lighter and shoots relatively flatter, there's a tradeoff
I think it's neat, and I'll prolly buy one once it and its ammo isn't as expensive as HP original ink.
because there is a 0.0005% chance that infantry will be able engage enemy infantry at 600m. And there is a 0.0004% chance that everybody agrees to hold all future wars in afghanistan where sight lines can be 600m. There is also a 0.0007% chance that said enemy infantry will expose their 11x14 inch armor plate to incoming fire. Then there is a 0.0003% chance that suppressive fire only works with 6.8mm calibers or above.
Additionally there is a 0.0002% chance that material science isn't real and no more progress can be made in the composition and capability of personal body armor, which would make a higher caliber round effective at combating body armor for years to come.
>the US military is going to replace the 2,000,000+ M4s it has in armories with the 10,000 XM7s it plans to order per year
~17100 in FY24 up from ~7500 in FY23.
Jesus Christ, the last four times the US changed service rifles they procured at least 500,000 per year
Because there is no point fielding a new rifle if you have no ammo for it.
The existing lake city ammo production facility is continuing with existing 7.62 and 5.56 production, so the 6.8x51 production line has to be built from scratch, they also don't have floorspace in the existing facility to fit a new production line, so they're building a whole new building to house the new 6.8x51 production line, but that wont come online fully until ~2027/8.
Even if you wanted to pay SIG for 500,000 rifles per year, you wouldn't be able to shoot them with the current ammo production rate that SIG can manage (since they're the only ones running a production line for the new brass/steel hyrbid cartridge case)
In the contract award announcement, the army even said wider unit fielding is predicated on ammo stores and production rate, nothing else really.
Also it's a 10-year fixed price contract with new order windows open every year during the 10-year window. Just because the army is CURRENTLY buying ~10-20k year doesn't mean they couldn't make that 100k/year once they have a good supply of the ammo in 5-8 years.
I just looked and .223 and .30-03 didn't exist until the year military rifles chambered in them started being handed out, while .308 had a whole 24 month head start
Who gives a frick? We aren't at war.
We have a good supply of 5.56 and M4s that aren't going anywhere anytime soon and we know are perfectly useable in combat. That doesn't mean we can't ALSO have a new rifle on the backburner in various stages of development/deployment, hell it could be 15 years until they finally end up replacing more than 200,000 M4s, but that doesn't mean the M7 is a "failure" or didn't do what it was designed to.
If you honestly think your argument makes any real point of value, I assume you're just kinda dumb.
>it was real in my mind and besides think of how successful the contract COULD be if they just negotiate something differently than what's already been agreed through FY2033
Holy shit dude
lmao, how salty are you that it's already outpaced the SCAR in deliveries?
The SIG israelite gets more orders every year and you keep seething and screaming that it's actually a failure.
Honestly it's been hilarious watching you in these NGSW threads over the last year and a half. First it was the Bullpup was TOTALLY gonna win, then when SIG won there was TOTALLY gonna be a GOA protest, then when that died the army was only gonna order a handful of them, then the FY23 budget came out and they were ordering thousands and it became they'll order the same or less in FY24 because it's dead/dying, and then the FY24 budget draft came out showing 17,000+ more rifles bought and now you're going for "well when PREVIOUS rifles entered service they bought a lot more per year"
keep going I'm enjoying this.
>watching you
Fricking hell dude, meds
All these words and not one to explain why it’s a good choice