>UK reportedly considering sending 10 Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine.
Discussions have been taking place “for a few weeks” about delivering a number of the British Army’s Challenger 2 main battle tank to the Ukrainian armed forces, a western source with knowledge of the conversations said. No final decision has yet been made by Rishi Sunak’s government, but if the UK did sign off on such a delivery it would become the first nation to respond to pleas from Ukrainian leaders to equip their military with powerful western tanks. The source said this in itself would not be a “game changer” but it would still be significant because the move would breach a barrier that has so far prevented allies from offering up western tanks to Ukraine for fear of being seen as overly escalatory by Russia.
source: https://news.sky.com/story/uk-considering-supplying-ukraine-with-challenger-2-tanks-to-fight-russian-forces-12783107
Looks like the UK is feeling a little left out after last weeks announcements. They know they have nothing relevant in the way of IFVs to provide so it would be nice if that Shane’s then into providing chally 2s
If they just remove the turrets from the warrior it would make a pretty good APC.
>feeling left out
Sorry we were busy supplying our weapons and training 20,000 troops before the war started and a further 10,000 troops every 120 days. We've done more than anyone else in Europe and we were doing it before anyone else in Europe.
Plus we haven't had massive downsizing in our army like seen in Germany, we use most of our kit, it's not sitting doing nothing.
Not saying you are wrong but to the casual observer Germany looks like they are providing way more. IRS-T, Patriot, marders, pzh2000, and gephards.
very small numbers of headline systems. The UK has provided large amounts of artillery, 105, 155 and GMLRS, more significantly it's been providing large stockpiles of ammunition, both of our own holdings and we've been doing regular C17 flights from Pakistan with brand new soviet calibre artillery ammunition. Other nations should rightfully be feeling pressures, Germany sat on their hands far too long, France still is.
But the war started 11 months ago and the UK has more than pulled it's weight.
>very small numbers of headline systems
We have a deal to sell them 100 pzh 2000
In 2024
>headline systems
So yes, they are more visible in the media. UK's contribution has been and is great.
But it hasn't been as flashy as some of the other minor contributions lately. Which is exactly what 10 Challengers would be. That's a pathetic number that wouldn't have much impact in a theater with thousamds of tanks, but what it would do is take away Germany's pissy excuse for not sending tanks, while making UK the first to do so
Germany has pledged more and has overtaken UK military aid via these pledges, but this is a recent thing. It's still good but it's taken the Germans a lot of time to get to this point. Britain was much quicker off the mark and has mainly settled into its role as soldier trainer. Basically all training of Ukrainian soldiers, a good few thousand a month or something, is done in the UK, though small numbers are set to start training in Germany.
In total aid provided the UK is still significantly ahead of Germany. However it just does not have the stocks of heavy equipment to give away, so of course it won't be able to keep up in that avenue.
Early on the war the UK purchased 20 SPG from a dealer in Belgium, did them up and provided them to Ukraine. Jordon is apparently getting rid of its Challenger 1 tanks. I hope the UK does the same thing with them.
Considering the UK has probably the best trained infantry in the world, the training they're providing would be invaluable. Material support is obviously great, but the training isn't something you can get just anywhere
Source? The finns, French, and Swedish are generally seen as having superior infantry than the british
>The finns, French, and Swedish are generally seen as having superior infantry than the british
KEK what kinda bullshit is this? The finns train for very specific kind of warfare. The French? They have a lot of experience in africa etc so they're definitely top tier. Swedish? Idk where you get that from.
Britain consistently proves they have most professional soldiers, it's why in private security circuit British officers are very sought after for training foreign militaries.
Don’t get mad it’s just the general consensus. May I see a source backing up what you said about the UK having the best infantry?
It's not the general consensus, it's the voices in your head. There is a reason militaries from around the world send their officers to be educated in Britain and why most special forces outfits around the world are based on Britains.
You literally made all of that up. Its never been the consensus.
The French are very good sure and can compared to the bongs in good faith. But Sweden & Finland are neutral conscript forces with zero modern experience.
>source
It was just an opinion based on observations, I don't have anything concrete really. I think it's fair to say other countries like the ones you mentioned may have them beat in specific areas, since different countries prioritize different roles for their infantry
>UK
>Best trained infantry
Says who?
America has the most experience and funding. israelitebros have all the most impressive special forces raids (can't beat raiding a military base with commercial airliners flying 50 feet off the deck, rescuing hostages while inflicting 53-1 losses, and destroying 31 MiGs on the ground to cover your escape).
I would take US conventional, IDF urban (the professional parts anyhow, they do use a lot of conscripts to fill the force out).
>American has more experience
Starting from when? Because without expanding on that that's kinda wrong
>Most funding
Yeah, that's why they have the advantage of a frick huge arsenal of tech, jets, arty, guided munitions etc on tap so they get away with 'good enough' infantry. Comparing them to the British infantry is stupid.
>Israel being good at anything other than shooting protestors
Yeah.
>Says who?
The Russians, and even the Americans most of the time.
>As a recently retired officer from its planning directorate once said to me, with more enthusiasm than originality: “Britain has always had the best light infantry in the world, and the bastards get places faster than we would like.”
>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/19/nuclear-weapons-uk-defence-review-russia
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-backtracks-on-defense-spending-promise-warns-about-delays-ukraine-war/
ok dennis
Just stop being a bunch of cucks and keep sending the hardware.
Im sorry Mr Bong. You carried Ukraine enogh already. If not for British aid it would be very hard times for ukies at the start, since bongs were ones of the first that trusted in Ukraine and helped them.
To be fair, Germany has no stockpile and I'm pretty sure if this Russian invasion hit Germany it would have collapsed before it could take advantage of its huge industrial advantage. It isn't a great comparison. And then France is being French about it and not giving shit.
UK wins in Europe, but for their ability to pay Eastern Europeans have given a lot.
sorry busy training everyone and giving the ukies APC's
>so it would be nice if that Shane’s then into providing chally 2s
I can't quite make sense of this. Can someone clarify?
he probably meant "Shames" them, Anon
The UK has been by far one of the biggest allies to Ukraine, only beaten by the US and Poland, and has been helping Ukraine since Russia seized Crimea, so its not really fair to act like Britain is trailing behind European nations.
>only beaten by the US and Poland
Not even Poland.
>They know they have nothing relevant in the way of IFVs
What are you on the warrior is easily as capable if not definitely much better then a BMP.
We have 400, we use 220, we are only turning 150 into Challenger 3. Seems like a good opportunity to pass the leftovers onto Ukraine, the ongoing upgrade means there's very little to lose if Russia gets hold of one.
While i'd like to see it i'm not convinced that western tanks will make much of an impact given
1. the number of soviet tanks already donated/captured
2. the prolific use of ATGM's
3. the lack of air superiority.
4. the small numbers of different types making logistics harder
At the end of the day, it's gun will kill anything the Russians field and it's armour is good enough to stop most of what the Russians have when used correctly - from hull down positions.
I thought the UK was getting rid of all of its tanks
No one is that stupid. Countries that sold their tanks for cheap are hiring their heads right now.
The Netherlands sold theirs for peanuts and then immediately regretted it. Have these morons learned nothing from Chamberlain's error?
source?
Nope that was never happening in the short to medium term. Bong MOD does think that the day of the tank will soon by over though, so isn't keen to invest large amounts of money in replacements for Chally 2
We should be either scrapping the entire fleet or giving it to Ukraine and then buying Abrams instead.
>and then buying Abrams instead
???????
CR2 is literally the current best currently fielded. The only time a CR2 has been destroyed was due to friendly fire from another CR2.
It really isn’t that good. It just hasn’t seen a lot of combat. It’s never even killed an enemy tank, just a CR2
Indeed, still seems better to send upgraded T-series tanks since they fit into the existing logistics and Ukrainians are trained on them. All Western tanks add is superior sensors, but can't those be bolted onto their existing slavshit tanks?
>there's very little to lose if Russia gets hold of one.
The armor composition is still extremely classified
The British army supposedly only has about 50 tanks operational at any one time, enough for the third mechanised division and not much else.
Many of the ~150 mothballed are basically cannibalised for spares and couldn't be made ready again.
British army Armor is basically Bundeswehr tier, except Germany can at least still build Leopard 2s.
True, Britain is a third world country now, their tanks are only relevant because of armour invented in the 1960s. They've spent the last 40 years slacking and now they're paying the price.
their armour is the same as US armour, the bongs literally sold it to you
Bad bait
What is Army 2020, though? I mean it’s understandable that the UK wants to specialize, but I am not really convinced that the proposed changes are sound.
They have no idea what they're doing. They just don't have any money so are trying to cut corners as much as possible. Functionality is an afterthought.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s not the worst I have seen for reorganization ideas. Everytime I look at pic rel, I think some people should take a swim in Landwehrkanal. But I feel the UK is gimping its army too hard.
It's also been completely justified by the Ukraine war. If you read the actual Strategy & defence review they called an awful lot of what we are seeing in Ukraine.
bait.
Even bigger bait.
Their current orbat is pic related. Its literally the cutting edge of modern warfare and has been wholly justified by the way Ukraine has played out. They have 3rd division, an armored division that is focused on maneuver AND deep-fires. Basically, what we saw the Ukrainians do during the Kharkov offensive is they have been building their entire army around - distributed lethality, delivering deep fires with precision weapons to shape the battlefield, heavy armor to achieve a breakthrough, and then 1 Div (mainly wheeled) to exploit the frick out the breakthrough.
>its also why Ajax, a very weird vehicle, is a thing. Its basically a pillbox with big eyes and ears for the fires.
Oh, and they have two brigades for world-police frick-frick games and an entire QRF brigade incase the world-police frick-frick games require backup.
Its coherent. Its logical. Its pragmatic. Its cost-effective. It balances global light fighting with modern conventional needs. tl;dr: its dope as FRICK.
It’s literally the German ORBAT minus the mountain brigade. There are other minor details like number of tanks relative to number of IFVs in the spearhead formations but it is essentially identical.
And it has what I would call the same structural defects with regards to organization. One of them would be how support is or isn’t integrated on brigade level. I think that this specific discussion is beyond the scope of this board and especially this thread. We either need a distinct thread for it which will likely be buried by spam, or leave it at this.
10 tanks. Game changer. We did it Ukiebros, this will change the war
/k/opium mach ten incoming. They don't actually believe Russia has ATGm tech
10 Challenger 2s are worth 100 T-72s.
I agree, ignore the israelite gremlin.
Russian ATGMs went up against western tanks in the middle east and failed. Maybe it'll be different this time, maybe it won't.
when? Yom Kippur?
/k/ope dialed max
All of Americas recent sandbox adventures, plus Israels bullying of Palestinians. Can't say those conflicts don't count because the other side only had Russian gear when the argument is about the effectiveness of Russian gear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure) in particular has swatted a lot of blyatmissiles successfully.
i think if the 10 tanks are being concentrated on a narrow section of the front line, and used to gain local superiority, they'd cut through vatBlack folk like a warm knife through butter
>Challenger 2
Are they even good?
They’re better than anything russia has. They’re a step below the leopard and abrams but they’re still solid tanks. They even have a fully stabilized main gun which is a luxury on a British armored vehicle
>Same shitposting style
>Same narratives every time
>Tries to pin it on "one bong" when he's the one non stop shilling against pretty much anything british
have a nice day warriortard, I hope a bong raped your behind to get you this seething mad.
I was just asking you to source your claim about the challengers armor being superior. Shouldn’t be too hard considering how sure you sounded about it.
You should consider getting help.
reletively, cant remember how good the APFSDS is but HESH will ruin older russian tanks and infantry at longer engagement ranges and the armour is extremely affective against HEAT
Should win duels against most if not all tanks Russia is fielding and is far superior when used as intended, integrated into a combined arms mechanized formation.
>considering
More like con-sneed-ering
>Challenger 2
How are they better than T-55?
>how are they better than T-55
Modern gun
Modern ammo
Modern optics
Vastly better armor
Vastly superior mobility
That’s like asking why a Halberd is better than a Bronze Age spear
This happens and the Russians might seethe about Anglo-Saxons for another 1000 years
Ok, I'm considering sending ten nukes
it's so fricking big
It's the heaviest and best protected tank in the world, dunno what else you'd expect.
I love it
imagine Russian mobiks would be shitting their pants seeing one of those coming their way
>best protected tank in the world
Isn't the Merkava supposed to be the best protected one?
The sepv3 and sepv4 abrams are better protected than the challenger 2
Nah. Not even close.
Yea. Better frontal and side armor on the abrams sepv3s and the addition of APS. Bong tanks are way behind
you're deluded, challenger had larger LOS thickness armour on the front and especially the sides while using the same armour type but superior applique kits.
Source on the superior oblique kits and thickness. Also why did you disregard the APS on abrams that challenger doesn’t have
Challenger has had front and side ERA and Composite applique armour since Challenger 1, Challenger 2 has been tested with soft and hard-kill APS systems and are available for theatre entry kits.
Are all bong posters this delusional? Or Is it really just one guy. This reads like the same posting style as that guy who bends over backwards trying to save face for starstreak as if it’s personal.
>starstreak bad
I’m so tired of this meme. Sure it’s not as good as we thought it would be but it’s able to stand proud with the rest of big MANPADS.
How do you guys even compare armor on modern tanks? It's all classified composites, pure material thickness means nothing
Americans and Germans bought Chobham armour. UK Improved Chobham and created Dorchester armour for Challenger 2. Challenger 3 will use yet another brand new UK designed and owned armour package.
The US has upgraded its super secret armor. Guaranteed to be better than what the British have done. Feel free to post a source proving me wrong tho
Later Abrams probably have copied some Dorchester changes, but even with the same design they have less space to work with. You only need to look at combat weight to see which tank is more heavily armoured.
The US uses depleted uranium and other proprietary ceramics. I’m not at all surprised the US developed a superior armor and needed less space as a result
The UK has access to all the US's armour data just as the US had to the UK. The UK's armour data remains classified.
> The UK has access to all the US's armour data
Will this finally be the claim you source or will you continue to make claims without being able to back them up
Dorchester uses DU too.
Show me a single source claiming the challenger 2 uses depleted uranium
The weight gain, the scrapping of damaged vehicles over repair and the fact it's still classified.
>It deployed in small numbers to a quiet AO
And got 300 odd AFV kills.
> The weight gain, the scrapping of damaged vehicles over repair and the fact it's still classified.
So you don’t have a source confirming DU on challenger 2. I didn’t think you did when you made the claim. I’m glad I asked
Bong posters ladies and gentlemen
we're not all insuffereable homosexuals, I have no idea where the current crop has come from, Reddit perhaps
The 0.5 tonne of weight gain while Abrams gained 2 tons with the addition of DU to the front turret cheeks only?
>And got 300 odd AFV kills
That isn’t a lot or an impressive target to kill. Maybe if it was and IFV getting hundreds of tank kills we would be impressed
Well shit I can’t find the source anymore but I’m pretty positive it does
It doesn't. I have no idea where this myth comes from. First of all there is a large amount of traceability in the use of DU in the form of licensing of nuclear materials in both armor such as US Abrams, and projectiles such as both L26/L27, M829 series or 30mm DU round of the GAU-8. There is no such mention at all of DU being used in Challenger
115mm steel APFSDS would hole Chieftain out to 1.6km. 125mm steel APFSDS would go through it at 3+km as shown in the Iran-Iraq war. Yeah, for a 60s tank Chieftain was poorly protected, especially for it's weight
>There is no such mention at all of DU being used in Challenger
Because it's classified. Remember, you import our armour designs, we have never bought yours.
Depleted uranium isn’t used at all in British tanks. That info isn’t classified. The hard ceramic composition in the challenger 2 is what is classified
>Depleted uranium isn’t used at all in British tanks. That info isn’t classified.
No, it's entire composition is classified.
It's an infinite K/D.
Even if it's classified, it would mention that DU is used in it's armor array due to regulations on the use of nuclear materials needing it to be declared.
The Abram's armour is also classified you dumb frick, yet we still know it contains DU because it is a legal requirement to declare it.
>it would mention that DU is used in it's armor array due to regulations on the use of nuclear materials needing it to be declared.
Yeah, no, our secrecy laws trump everything. The UK is Israel tier when it comes to military secrecy, we nuked and used chemical weapons on our own guys as a test and arrested them when they complained.
Except the UK also declare that L26 and L27 are DU rods.
DU being in our tank rounds isn't a military secret, we've been dumping it into targets all around the world for decades.
Isn’t ammo different than armor
If both have DU, both would be declared to have DU (like Abrams)
If one is declared to have DU and the other doesn't have any documentation on nuclear licensing (interesting note, the DU material stock for L26/L27 came from the US), well it's probably that the other one doesn't use DU.
It's really that simple.
Im pretty sure that the US has different nuclear and military secrecy laws to the UK
declaring DU in rounds you are using constantly and are exposing people and the environment to, is different compared to armour that generally isnt being penetrated. But fair point, its either some autistic tungsten alloy or an autistic DU alloy, or both.
Well theres almost no information publicly avaliable, and ive heard either that it uses DU or it uses some kind of tungsten alloy, but that it has protection vs KE superior to the US's chobham.
https://www.defencetalk.com/military/forums/t/dorchester-armor.4620/
Some guy who claims to have been peripherally involved with a german upgrade programme suggests that Dorchester is known to be stronger than the US's DU chobham .
There was a UK parliament report on the continuing use of DU apfsds, the british army uses DU so theyre not exactly averse to using it, and the report mentions the long-term health risk to those crew operating in 'struck vehicles' from aerosolised DU, but it isnt clear if this is only for vehicles struck by friendly fire with DU munitions, or for vehicles struck in general.
>Please take my third hand sources of people working at Nintendo as fact
no
If i had an actual source, and posted it, i'd get arrested. Thats already happened twice for warthunder, not doing it for PrepHole.
So you understand why people are outright disregarding your posts then? If I make a claim saying the abrams can fly all I have to do is say it’s classified and I win?
You understand the difference between gleaning information on the most classified armour in the world, as being better than a different but extremely similar armour which uses the same design principles, and making an unrealistic and stupid statement that can be objectively proved or disproved?
>Fourm posts and RUMINT
Yeah, I shant be taking you seriously anymore.
It's the opposite.A snippet of a British document posted online says the DU Abrams turret has better protection vs KE over a narrow frontal arc
Col Dick Taylor in his CR2 Book gives a figure of the Abrams having 15% better performance vs KE but worse (no specified figure) vs HEAT
Huh, from what i've read people seem to say the opposite of this, do you have a link or photo of this?
Its frustrating that they still havent declassified the ke or cha values for even the ancient chobham from the late 70s, im not sure anyone still uses that, so i have little hope that dorchester will be declassified before we die.
The Leopard 2 it is talking about is likely the pre-97th vehicle of the 6th Batch
The 1988 RARDE report on Chieftain Replacement options and the Swedish document on their tank trails are good info on the protection levels of Western tanks
Well, actually the chobham type 2 applique was declassified in its layout but not the values and not sure how far dorchester follows this or what materials it is made out of. I saw a report for the original chobham in the 1980s from an american source, but obviously this is the precursor to both and these are just rough estimates. The original does seem to be HEAT focused, but from what ive read dorchester seems to prioritise KE.
Was gonna post this but this the same document on Leclerc
>same document on Leclerc
Follow on document on Leclerc
Yeah im more inclined to believe that the challenger 1 has 500mm over its frontal arc than 435, as 435 wouldnt be any better than the chieftain. But that is an different armour and thickness to the burlington challenger 2. All we can know for now is that its going to be greater than 500mm. I do wonder for these if 500mm is the minimum for both the turret and the glacis, or is the maximum for the turret or the glacis. As the turret is typically much better armoured than the glacis on most NATO tanks, at least the ones which use a big blocky square layout, on account of the way chobham derived composite is installed.
Weight is one of the worst determinants of protection holy shit what a fricking brainlet take.
By your logic M60 or Chieftain are more heavily protected then T-64 since they weight 15 tons more
Chieftain is absolutely better protected than T64 but no, you're too dumb to be able to understand the comparison of weight from similar sized tanks of similar design using equally modern components in their manufacture. We're just better at tanks than you, they are our invention after all.
>Chieftain
>protected vs 100mm full bore AP at most
>no protection vs HEAT since even RPG-7s will go through it frontally
>T-64
>glacis plate protected vs 105mm APDS at point blank
>Protected to all but the heaviest of ATGMs at the time, and all tank-fired HEAT rounds
Hmmm which one is better protected...
>no protection vs HEAT since even RPG-7s will go through it frontally
Nice fantasy, laughs in stillbrew.
Stillbrew didn't begin being fitted until 1986 when T-80UD was entering service, and still weighed about 15 tons less while being far more protected.
Stillbrew increased the Chieftains turret protection to just below Challenger 1 and Leopard 2A4 with C-Tech armor vs KE, but it was still far worse vs HEAT
>protected vs 100mm full bore AP at most
>no protection vs HEAT since even RPG-7s will go through it frontally
Lmao.
Dorchester is a colloquialism for Chobham, which in itself is a blanket term for ceramic armor arrays developed in the Chobham Common. The US stopped using bong dev'd Chobham with the A1's rollout back in the late 80s and moved to domestically produced DU/ceramic composite armor arrays.
>The UK's armour data remains classified.
So does the US"s. We only know they moved away from the original Chobham recipe to DU, not what that DU is specifically capable of in it's current iterations. The Abrams gets new armor arrays with every major update.
>The US stopped using bong dev'd Chobham with the A1's rollout back in the late 80s and moved to domestically produced DU/ceramic composite armor arrays.
Yeah, when the UK stopped using Chobham and moved to Dorchester for Challenger 2. Yet another UK made armour kit for Challenger 3, we're world leaders in material science.
My man, the Challenger 2 didn't roll out until the 1990s. The USA had already moved on from Chobham by then with the M1A1 in 88. The bongs weren't even the first people to use their own armor.
>Open documents so far don't refer to Dorchester yet
I think it only came around as a name with the C2, though I have no idea where that name comes from because as far as I can tell it's used interchangeably with ICA.
Funnily enough open documents so far don't refer to Dorchester yet (we are talking 1987-1988). The Improved Challenger design studies all call it ICA - Improved Chobham Armor
I live within earshot of Chobham common and am listening to tanks firing as I read this, comfy as frick
>Feel free to post a source proving me wrong tho
Not falling for that one again!
I mean it's bong super secret armour.
They don’t. It’s either morons spouting BS or bad actors trying to bait morons into disclosing classified info. There is a famous example of someone posting classified armor info on a warthunder forum in a manipulated conversation to prove that he totally knew what he was talking about.
It is obvious that a lot of the antagonistic threads are an attempt to recreate that success.
>less than 30 seconds apart
What’s your point? That people are aware of what’s going on?
Just a fun coincidence is all
Unfortunately one has to remind the morons from time to time. Spreading the word might also actually improve board quality as people stop interacting with the bait content and instead steer the conversation to things more interesting. Like proper discussion of unclassified info or posting bananas.
Its actually happened not once but six times, three of of them in the span of a single year.
Which is why we should remind anons from time to time.
Most NATO projects share a lot of info, including composite design, and often offer it to one another. This is why the US was offered, and accepted, chobham design composite armour for the M1A1, among other armour design. Given that we do not know the actual specifications for modern armour, the only assumption we can make is that they are all roughly similar and offer similar ke protection for their LOS thickness and weight, and that no NATO country will have designed a composite several times better than the others without having shared or sold it.
Therefore if a NATO tank has significantly more weight in armour, and the armour covers greater LOS thickness, then the armour is likely to offer more protection and the tank is likely to be more armoured than an equivalent NATO MBT with less weight in armour and less LOS thickness.
>For the M1A1
The M1A1 was the first iteration to move away from bong designed Chobham. The M1 used it, the A1 was armored with domestically produced DU/ceramic arrays.
>Because it's classified
All armor systems are classified. Hell, the silicon carbide systems the US was developing for the Pattons series back in the 50s is still classified. Does that mean you have to infer that it too uses DU in it's recepe?
Always remember that on this website you're one (1) click away from seeing chicks with dicks frick each other and whatever cesspool /b/ is nowadays. Discussion on classified, or even most regular info here is just "oh, my country is the best because eeeeeh i feel like it"
well their best enemy are kids with rocks
I love the Merkava's aesthetics. Really captured that "land battleship," feel, especially with all the weaponry.
But unfortunately, Israel has not seemed very hot on donating much to the war and it's a tank less well suited to Ukraine's battlefield than other wealthy nation's MBTs.
Ukraine would probably better off with their new IFVs with the active protection and the sweet autonomous auto cannons.
>heaviest
that's not a good thing
>best protected
Daily Mail Propoganda.
Greek trials ranked the protection of as Leopard 2>M1A2>Cr2>Leclerc
which is consistent with the order of the Swedish trials of Leopard 2>M1A2>Leclerc where we have some hard figures as well.
internal British documents indicate that compared to the M1A2, Cr2 has worse protection on the front turret vs KE but better vs HEAT.
So while not badly protected, it isn't the best protected by any means.
Then there are the other factors, like the ammunition stowage is by far the worst of all the western tanks in terms of post penetration safety and the TOGS mounted on the mantlet is just jank.
>Then there are the other factors, like the ammunition stowage is by far the worst of all the western tanks in terms of post penetration safety
Not sure that's the case. In the FF incident a HESH shell exploded on the rim of the open commander's hatch (so as close to a detonation inside the tank as you can get) and the tank didn't cook off until well after the two surviving crew had escaped.
The tank cooked of a few seconds after it was hit. The reason only 2 crew died as because the other two were not in the tank.
The incident inquiry report is online
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20121109064050/http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C2384518-7EBA-4CFF-B127-E87871E41B51/0/boi_challenger2_25mar03.pdf
>The tank cooked of a few seconds after it was hit
Because there was a hesh round waiting to be loaded into the gun that blew up.
The screenshot from the report clearly states it was the HESH round stored on the turret floor, but okay you don't want to read.
The projectile stowage on the turret floor of Challenger 2 is a 5 round rack on the floor at the rear of the floor and a 7 round rack towards the front of the floor underneath the gun
>The screenshot from the report clearly states it was the HESH round stored on the turret floor,
They are stored in the turret, the fact it was on the floor means it was taken out of it's rack and waiting to be loaded.
Wrong
Pic related is the 7 round rack underneath the gun.
And pic related is from CR1 Mk 3 which has effectively the same hull stowage as CR2 where both hull floor projectile racks are visible
Fair enough, I got bullshitted on that one then
>Greek trials ranked the protection of as Leopard 2>M1A2>Cr2>Leclerc
CR2 was the only tank that the Greeks were going to be allowed to actually conduct their own live fire trials against though.
All the others were just "trust me bro" from the manufacturers based on their own test regimes. So no direct comparative trials with a standardised method were carried out
lmaooo, imagine if British volunteers went with the tanks too
I think the newest M1 is heavier, and it's definitely better protected with the brand new upgrades. Although the Merkava probably takes the cake for crew protection with the newest version. It looks impressive because of the extra volume for carrying infantry too.
Yes and no. The Merkava has the latest active protection systems used for the M1 and great armor, definitely top tier. It is safer for the crew, because they sit behind the engine and away from the munitions, which have blowout panels. Probably the best tank to be in if you get hit. But this design makes the tank more likely to be killed. In some cases you can have the crew killed or badly injured, but have a salvageable tank, or you can have a dead tank but a crew that is alive, relatively uninjured. Losing either is no good for a force, so it's a toss up.
The Merkava is the tank you'd want to be in fighting in very urbanized areas where you're not going long distances. It is quite specialized for the type of fighting the IDF is likely to do. The mortar is a nice addition in that the best defense is one that can blow up an ambush team before they have a chance to fire, which drone spotters + mortar does quite well. The Merk also has an area for infantry to jump into if needed, a plus for urban enviornments.
But other tanks have more versatility. New M1 is quite impressive but still suffers from its now antiquated base design. The thing is fricking horrendous on fuel, which has real implications if you're not the US.
K2 is pretty sweet too.
And honestly, if the T-14 wasn't all bullshit and did what they said it does, it would be an excellent tank. But it seems it was all smoke and mirrors.
that's what she said
i remember pic related, brits were first to deliver shit to ukraine right before the invasion and it would be symbolic if they decided to deliver tanks first
Why is that flight taking a detour above Holland?
Germany wouldn't allow overflights with weapons without permission and the permission form takes two weeks to process.
A uniquely German problem.
Krauts were butthurt that their crack--I mean gas supplier would have NLAWs and Javelins pointed at them so those flights went over to make them feel better.
They've been doing their damnedest to prevent escalation since the beginning, but they finally caved when they realized NATO was going to support Ukraine with or without their help. The German government is unbelievably cucked
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/20/1144315459/german-court-convicts-97-year-old-ex-secretary-at-nazi-camp
Disregarding the burrhurt anti-German posters, teh reason was that German (and French) diplomats were still trying to convince Putin not to invade. Germany and France are generally big on the 'let's not have wars' thing.
Even the French president went to Putin. Obviously, teh Russians lied to the diplomats and the French president.
Personally, I hope the Brits do send MBTs. Then the Germans can start sending Leo2s and we can finally see if they work.
Macron and Scholz are the Chamberlain of the 21st century. Waving around the Minsk agreement while the Russians were already fueling up their jets. A complete political and intelligence failure for the entirety of western Europe. Only the UK/US were at least proactive, and not just slobbering Putin's wiener for guarantees and muh gas.
Please, if the bongs don't fricking send them with L/44s the ukros are going to have so fricking hard times with supplies with all the kinds of shit they're getting.
They already are going to get a supply line for 105 shells, we don't need one of 120mm rifled shells and one of 120 smoothbore shells on top of the 125mm line
>L/44
>circumcised american guns
miss me with that short shit.
Please think of the dombass children, on how many could you kill if you sent the L/44 instead so you can use all of NATO's ammo
Ukraine has 0 western tanks. If it gets 10 Challengers or 10 Leopards it will be setting up a new logistics supply line - it would have to do this anyway if it got 10 leopards and 10 Abrams because they use different parts and spares.
commonality is still prefferable in ammo, that's why the ukros modified all their 7.62*39 weapons into 5.45 after the dombabwe catastrophe
>Please think of the dombass children
Ah yes the bajillion donbabweans that radioactive ukranian azov nazis killed with their bear hands.
Comically russia killed far more donbabweans by forcing their "totally independant and not at all puppets who has no say unless kremlin says so" republics to conscript everytving that moved and using them as fodder.
> if the bongs don't fricking send them with L/44s
What, you expect them to do a complete rebuild of the tank before sending them?
What are the laws governing supplying DU ammunition to a third country? Are there any nuclear proliferation issues?
its not fissible material so its fine
>10
I sleep.
Bongs are worthless.
It's clearly about trying to prod the other big NATO peeps into giving tanks. Peeps like Germany and the US. It's clearly not meant to be a large functional delivery, it's like Poland or finland giving a couple of leopard tanks, it's about sending a message that NATO as a whole is ready to start delivering tanks to ukraine
everyone is waiting for others to make a move, it's political bullshit
Watch the jerries give the Ukies like 3 Leopards tho
I just bought the generational bottom of SOXS
Thanks England!
Why would you just send a company (-)? Bataillon or bust!
Would be good news, though. Integrate with Bradleys and you have a really high performance combined arms batallion. I would really like to see that plus support go up against a russian BTG. I know it’s a unrealistic scenario, because that’s not how war works. Still an interesting thought.
>HESH
yeah
Nothing says killing you with kindness like sending someone your shame tank.
Challenger 2 is perfect for Ukraine because its light, extremely hard to spot and because of the small size is very hard to hit. Ambrams is the second best choice
Since when did /K/ become of the opinion that British gear is le bad
/k/ has an obsession with sucking German and American wiener. Chally 2 is the greatest tank in active service anywhere in the world.
Just last year. It started with a guy who made a thread about the warrior IFV being shit and it is. It’s got a ton of problems. Normally that would be it but a small group of bongs got really upset that the warrior was exposed and would sperg in every thread about it. Naturally this led to more warrior threads and even copycat posters mocking the warrior. This coincided with the lackluster performance of starstreak in Ukraine and everybody kind of just hopped on the bong hate train.
I think it's some of my fellow bongs losing their objectivity for no reason at all. It's a bit cringe. We're pretty good at this shit, so I don't see the need to become defensive dweebs when it comes to stuff that we don't do as well.
""""""""""""""""""""considering"""""""""""""""""""
So did they already train the crews or is this another one of those we'll train them for 3 months and then see how it goes announcements
The new talk is that the counter-offensive comes during April, so clearly we are dealing with three-months training on new equipment, regardless of any previous training Ukes have had on any of these recently announced systems. All you would need is one of the systems to be completely new for the maths to add up favorably to putting off the counter-offensive though.
I’m so sick of people clowning on the crown when she’s down. Sure the warrior was a national embarrassment, who fricking cares it’s being replaced. Okay the starstreak turned out to struggle to keep pace with the older stingers in country but again who fricking cares. It’s still cool as shit. Mach 4 missile firing guided tungsten darts will never not be badass
do you want the nuclear war? this is how you get the nuclear war
says who?
Was it Abrams or Leo that lost 10 tanks in like an hour to insurgents? i can't remember if it was turks or iraqi's, either way it wasn't a British tank.
>British tank sees virtually no combat
yea we know
Seen huge amounts of combat thanks, with no combat losses either. No awkward pictures of Challengers blown up by rag heads. Longest range tank kill too. Challenger 3 will be dope too, not only the best protected tank in the world but also the most lethal tank in NATO ad it's the only L55A1 gun that will be shooting DU rounds. cry about it.
> Seen huge amounts of combat thanks, with no combat losses either.
It’s only ever deployed in combat during iraq 2. It deployed in small numbers to a quiet AO. That’s not a lot of combat at all. Perhaps you were thinking of the challenger 1 and the gulf war
Challenger = WAR TANK
Leopard = Show TANK that looks good in exercises and demonstrations
#1 priority is crew survivability, when the men in the tank know they're the best protected on the battlefield it inspires confidence to act boldly.
Brits are best at war, if our population was bigger you'd all be fricked.
A single Challenger 3 tank would be able to liberate Ukraine.
10 is literally not enough to be worthwhile.
I'm a pro uke bong and this seems like a terrible idea.
>10 hulls isn't enough to justify the logistical and training overhead.
>The gun's rifled and so uses different 120 to all the other NATO tanks, so you don't even have that much cross compatibility going for you.
>If it needs a major repair you need to get it onto a boat back to the UK
Leopard 2 would be better for maintenance - just railway them leaveand/germany
Abrams would be better for sheer number of hulls that can be sent+spare parts
The only redeeming feature of the proposal is that it breaks the "taboo" about sending western MBTs. Germany will have to think of a new excuse. Probably that its wrong to send military goods too close to Valentines day or some such. Fricking krauts.
You still haven’t picked up on the political game being played?
Why are bongloids like this?
In fact, why are ALL armor artists like this?
Because Challenger 3 is due to be the best tank in NATO and it makes Lards and German/Turks furious.
It also makes them furious that we know that we're better than them no matter how much they try to say otherwise. Anglos are gods people.
>It also makes them furious that we know that we're better than them no matter how much they try to say otherwise.
We've always had the best quality soldiers in the world, and when we get the best equipment it's just not fair. Simple. As.
Our equipment is also, almost always better than people give it credit for. We're like the top of the league team when everyone is desperate to pick apart random stats to try and make us seem like we're not top dog. Then we come and play your team away and shred them, we are excellent at war, the same not giving a shit what you think attitude we have on here translates to the battlefield.
> We've always had the best quality soldiers in the world, and when we get the best equipment it's just not fair.
You’re describe the South Koreans
Chally 3 is the Bong's Armata
chally 3 is not enough of an upgrade to keep parity with the best western MBT's. Yes we have the best soldiers, but the new tank is not that much of a leap, stop being a homosexual you're making us look bad
Another bong has a meltdown thread. What’s the deal with British posters lately? Are they that upset about the Bradley and marder news
I like they knew not to even offer warrior. Why did the germs offer marder when the warrior could be considered on par or even have a slight edge over the marder
We don't have warriors to offer we're using them, Germans probably have spares due to huge downsizing and low recruitment.
Because Germany operated a giant Marder fleet in the Cold War, lots of them are in storage, they are being phased out and those in storage have been partially upgraded to levels that make them more than sufficient for the job at hand.
There are a lot of certified training cadre and huge Cold War stocks of ammo.
I wouldnt be surprised if they do, a lot are due to be retired soon
What news is that? I genuinely don't pay attention to nations other than the UK.
Context clues anon. Germany is sending marders and the US is sending Bradleys.
>Germany is sending marders and the US is sending Bradleys.
Challenger 2 is better than both. Hell even warrior is better but we are using it. 30mm RARDEN would go through each end of both of those clumsy APC conversions.
Challenger 2 isn’t really comperable to IFVs. The warrior has a non stabilized gun and feeds from 3 round clips with no dual feed capability. It’s mogged by the Bradley
none of that matters, or dick is bigger and more lethal. you cant even fit enough guys in a Bradley
>12 ready rounds
>1 shorter ranges ATGM hastily slapped onto the turret where the gunner has to expose himself to even fire it
Brits taking L after L and asking for more
kek I had to look this up. What a downgrade compared to the Bradley’s fully integrated TOW.
MILAN is better than TOW, like a lot better.
It literally does not matter because both are overkill for all russian tanks in service.
TOW is better because it has a much longer range. Having more standoff is important in a country as flat and open as Ukraine
>shorter range than TOW
>no top attack function like TOW
>seen less combat than TOW
Seething pretty hard are we
it's too easy to bait you, this is why i made you have a mental breakdown over starstreak.
>seethes hard
>bring up completely unrelated MANPADS when discussing armored vehicles
>I’m just baiting bro
Are you ok
Are you okay? You made a big deal about warrior not having an ATGM and now you look like a fool with your cope posts about it not counting lol. Remember, i own you.
Not him, but he is largely correct. The absence of an ATGM is not as big a deal as you think it is.
> You made a big deal about warrior not having an ATGM
What are you talking about. Could you please point out the post itt where someone claimed warrior didn’t have an ATGM
Are you referring to this post?
No where does it say the warrior doesn’t have an ATGM, just that it’s ATGM and operating system is inferior to that of the Bradley
You said it in previous threads and got shown up, just as happened with RARDEN tank kills, warrior surviveability and pretty much every subject you turn your little brain to.
Seek help. I was responding to presumably you when you said the warrior is nearly on par with Bradley. I never claimed the warrior didn’t have an ATGM option at all
Warrior is better than Bradley, faster, better protected, more troops and a more lethal gun. Have you even seen pentagon wars?
It’s speed and armor are better for sure. Bradley is overall better because of the optics and armament. Brads got a better gun, better feeding system, better optics, and a much better atgm
It's a shame the Desert Warrior, the export one with the Bradley turret wasn't just adopted by Britain.
It could have been a good one for sure. Although I think it was the LAV-25 turret
I agree with everything you said but optics the warrior has gen 3 Thermals fitted to all vehicles In service the Bradley doesn't. I'm not sure the warrior has the hunter killer thing the Bradley does though.
Yeh it's a LAV turret. Very poorly protected.
Yes but there are more Bradley’s fitted with gen-3s than warrior. There’s just so many more Bradley’s built than warrior
Fair point, how many have 3rd gen? Is it just the M2A3?
And m2a4. My guess is around 1200 although it’s hard to find exact numbers on what has been upgraded. A4s have 3rd gen gunner and commander sights
Yeh that's alot a Bradley's lol I think we have like 800 Warriors on the up side.
Better in what sense though?
Better as a tank destroyer maybe. It can remote fire two missiles, worse missiles perhaps, but its much easier to fire them and guide them compared to the single MILAN on the Warrior.
Better as an IFV though? The Warrior is faster and better armoured. It also doesnt have a lot of dangerous missiles stored in the fighting compartment. And as an IFV, the 30mm HE is significantly more effective than the 25mm of the Bradley, true it has a ww1 tier firing rate, but against infantry targets fewer larger calibre rounds can be just as effective as more smaller calibre rounds. It is still very slow firing and the RARDEN is trash which shouldnt ever have been adopted, but it is good enough for infantry targets, and im not convinced that the bradley has an overall advantage in its intended role as an IFV.
Better as a fighting vehicle. It can do everything from transport troops, lay down a base of fire, to killing tanks.
Right but an IFV is not supposed to be a tank destroyer, it is an infantry fighting vehicle, its meant to be an effective battlefield transport and a mobile anti-infantry weapon. It has different priorities to a tank destroyer. If i was an infantryman id rather be in the better protected and faster IFV, and wouldnt care as much that it had nice missiles, actually id rather it not as a penetrating hit on the fighting compartment is likely to detonate a stored missile. While if my IFV was expected to take on tanks for some reason, which it shouldnt be doing, then i'd rather be in the one with missiles. Imo the Bradley is a mediocre IFV but a good tank destroyer, while the Warrior is a good IFV but a poor tank destroyer.
Stop being moronic. Bradly set-up is obviously better because of integration. The ATGM on the Warrior was put there for "in case of extreme emergency".
The reason the brad has integrated ATGM systems and the Warrior does not is wholly because of doctrine. Warriors were designed to exclusively operate alongside tanks making ATGM's superfluous. Bradley was designed to do way more than conventional IFV jobs so it needed some extra punch.
Stop being so fricking petulant, the both of you.
Explain how
Apart from penetration where both weapons are similar for similar generation weapons (though there is no Milan top attack like there is with TOW-2B
TOW is faster then Milan (270m/s vs 200m/s)
TOW is further ranged then Milan 3.75 to 4.5km vs 2 to 3 km depending on the variant
Maybe when it came out modern TOW is far better.
>Brits taking L's
No not really. Aside from the Bradly the Warrior is the only other IFV that has both seen use in a major conventional war (two of them) and not been a complete disaster.
Quite good for a METAL BAWX made on the fricking cheap.
(YOU)
What i find funny are the morons saying IFV's being shipped to Ukraine are a GAME CHANGER. They're bullet and ATGM magnets. They can't go on the offensive now. They can only hold onto the land they have now.
>They can only hold onto the land they have now.
Must be why Russia keeps losing turf they stole, lol.
They're not.. Mobilized men are filtering into the front the whole time. They've got missiles and cheap Iranian drones to spare.
Russia have addressed their frailty across the frontlines, they retreated from Kherson without any casualties. Ukraine says they had a great victory.. But all their advances were into places the Russians already left. Ukrainians are getting their shit pushed in right now around Bakhmut. Losing men and material at an alarming rate.
Look at this dumbass c**t, just saying shit that is blatantly wrong and that there is a mountain of visual evidence disproving, like anyone else is stupid or sycophantic enough to believe it.
>mountain of visual evidence disproving
Lol this makes no sense, you think Ukrainians are videoing their soldiers getting blown to pieces? You have Russians flying over Bakhmut right now and you think Ukraine are winning hahaha
Pure fantasy. Don't get me wrong, I quite like it, because it means more Russian men die wailing in fear and pain.
Pretty ironic that the WEBM you use is actually of a Ukrainian getting his legs turned to mincemeat haha.
Nevermind that this moronic fricking opinion has been proved wrong repeatedly.
You know what ukraine needs? CV90, not the pitiful export models but the big dick energy 40mm swedish ones.
Would be great to field test 3P ammo on something else other then mountain goatfrickers too.
The 40mm Bofors gun still feeds from clips like it's 1940
And?
Is the bong screeching itt the same guy as the one in the marder thread arguing that having a stabilized gun is not an advantage?
By that logic, the USSR was losing all the way up until 1945
Literally the opposite is true. If Ukraine was losing no one would throw good assets at a lost cause.
The cause isn't to make Ukraine win, it's to make Russia lose. When you look at it through that lens, a lot of things make more sense.
In no way, shape or form is allowing Ukraine to capitulate going to end with Russia losing. They simply have to convince Ukraine to agree to terms, practically any terms, and their spin doctors can turn it into the great patriotic war 2.0 complete with mongols hoisting the flag on the Reichstag.
Thank, Dick Wolf
Is wolff on vatnik cash? Or is he just a dumbass like Jimmy Dore?
If you guys wanna know why western militaries aren't sending their modern shit, it's because it will be very embarrassing to see them getting blown up by 10,000 dollar plastic Iranian drones.
>bad morning sirs
B- for effort. Minimal knowledge of bongland exposed.
Who? - a quick heavily armed win is better for everyone than a long drawn out slog.
The scale of this war means that's guaranteed regardless of how superior western tech might be. The actual concern is that that they don't want to escalate things to the extent that nukes being used becomes a possibility. So far every red line the Russians set for western support has been crossed, earliest and most often by the bongs. It looks like the bongs might push the envelope a bit again.
Lol, Challenger 2 is big gay
t. jealous tanker who can't brew up a nice cuppa tea while murking ppl
Da, Da, Tovarisch Smith, I am in Coventry Oblast and I agree completely.
0/10 your efforts are getting farcical at this point
Insanely insanely fricking based, I literally cum at the thought of the intense vatnik seething and asshurt the first footage of one of these bad boys taking out a T-72 would cause. The only downside is if this happens Gaijin will never ever buff or fix anything in the Britain tree anymore at all, they already curse it because of the Russian hatred of Britain lmao.
t. the guy who leaked parts of the Challenger 2 manual to Gaijin on the forums
Would Warrior be better since they could be supplied in meaningful number, unlike the Challenger 2?
If Leopard 2s were already on the way there'd be no reason to send any other type of Western tank.
Not really. The rarden is ok but the gun is stabilized and it fires from a 3 round clip. The challenger would make a lot more of a difference.
But if the Challenger never arrives in meaningful numbers it could be more hassle logistically and training-wise than it's worth.
It's worth comes from the politics around it rather than it's effect on the ground - if the UK becomes the first country to provide tanks it breaks the barrier to other countries doing so.
FYI the news reports are quoting both Bong & Ukie officials. All the comments are in line with the above. Thinking is a few bong tanks = large amount of German tanks.
I agree, but lets say this causes the Germans to cave and at least allow other countries (Spain, Netherlands, Canada, Denmark, Finland, etc, etc, etc) to send Lep 2s, then it might make more sense for the UK to now actually send Challengers in the end as it'd cause more harm than good.
Stop being dumb. It’s already a done deal, but they need to bridge time for training with political blabbering. No use telling the Russians half a year in advance what you are going to do.
Sending 10 tanks won't change shit. It just prolongs the war. Only the defense industry is profiting from that.
I, Michail Windsorbloke of London oblast am demoralized. President Rishi Tunak Tun of royal duma will be notified to stop wasting monoey on nazi hoholstan. We need more funding for local gay orgy hut and top hat. I was so impoorverished without russian bear gas that i was not able to hot up my eel and kidney burrito.
If the war is prolonged enough russia will lose
Oi m8, me name's Chester Billingsford from Porkshire-on-Thames and I say we need to stop this war. I can't afford me beans on toast like this.
Tank discussion actually reminds me...
What happened to those ruskie tanks ukrainians captured? I have not seen any activity with those, and ruskies did leave shitton of those in fine condition just out of fuel at early on the war.
A WHOLE 10 TANKS OH MY GOD ITS OGRE FOR THE RUSSIANS WE DID IT REDDIT111!!!!1
What's the fricking point of sending only 10 of the fricking things?
Political signaling only. Plus these aren't confirmed they're just thinking about it
Virtue signalling, and encouraging the other NATO countries to send western tanks too, nobody has offered tanks yet. Could be that america decides to send 500 M1A2 after this, or germany allows leopard 2s to be sent.
I'd also really like to see a Challenger 2 engage a T-72, and take a few hits, as then i can prove that its actually got armour on warthunder.
>consider
>10
I get that we have basically none to begin with but ten tanks seems just insulting
Chally 2 needs to see some action before retiring tbh. What a unit.
It was in the 2003 invasion and Kosovo performed well. Much like Challenger 1 it has an infinite K/D ratio.
>Kosovo performed well
Nato troops never saw any land action in Kosovo.
What?
Challenger 2 has never faced off against tanks. It’s killed technicals in iraq
Low iq
It's to go first so the Leopard 2a4 hoard can be released, EU nations are outright scared to send stuff without the British going first that way they have the Bong backing if anything goes wrong for them.
>poor
No
>Dont have a enough of our own
Yeh
this is reckless IMO. Russia should be bled to death in ukraine. Escalating and pushing too hard just makes it more likely they'll flip the board and do something nuclear. It'll cost more ukrainians but russia needs to be ended once and for all.
If they bleed slowly they will once again find a convenient scapegoat for how they actually didn’t lose the war at all. Russia needs to learn humility something they have forgotten post WW2. The average Vat needs to learn that their duct tape army isn’t the greatest in the world. They won’t be in the Rhine in 7 days, they won’t roll over NATO. They are a collapsing imperial power. They are Britain in the 1950s. The imperial cycle is coming to a final conclusion.
God just the fricking chance of seeing a Chally 2 turret toss a t90 has me diamonds
They're both late Cold War designs, so if they go toe to toe, you're likely to see turrets tossed on both sides.
Honestly, bong sending 10 challenger 2 will have the same impact as russian send all their t-14 armata to the frontline. Absolutely nothing. What about training?Spare part? Fuel? Integration to the currently used doctrine? WTF bong.
the real benefit is it might stop the rest of the EU beiung shy about sending tanks. But essentially we're too poor to send them anything, we barely have enough of our own
i was concerned at first but now i think it's a good idea. does seem like our government is trying to play catch-up though - unironically there was comment in the media here that Macron has sort of "stolen" our thunder with Zelenskyy lel.
Can't wait to see it get dabbed on by a £100 drone
Tankchuds are a meme
Everyone wanted to see who would go first. I would be surprised if an M1 announcement doesn't follow too soon after. I am less certain about Leopards and Leclercs but they are definitely a possibility.
If they are announcing now they have probably been working on logistics for a bit.
That said, with these defensive works, it would really be nice to see them get more planes and HARMs to help them use them, and then get them to be able to use the JDAMs they got more often. Blow a hole in the static line of contact with 1000lb bombs and have a spear point of Challengers and M1s go through? It would be glorious to see.
Russian air defense is still a huge issue though so this will be tough. What they really need is the F-35 for both stealth and standoff targeting/range, but that seems like a non-starter.
I wouldn't be totally shocked about some fighters though, and obviously not the tanks. They put the Patriots there for a reason, and I am guessing it is to defend NATO logistics for heavier equipment.
>powerful western tanks
So are these tanks actually game changers as the media always seems to imply?
/k/ope and slide