It's not about making a plane that's better than the F35, that shit's obviously not happening. It's about strategic independence. It's about having a plane that you don't need authorization from the burgers to deploy. Basically we don't want what happenned to the Argentinians with the exocet missiles to happen to us.
Idk why that's so hard to grasp.
t. frog
Do you have an idea why the french are so mad at other european countries buying the better and cheaper F35 and also mad when they want to help them build a better and cheaper plane ?
it's part of a bigger problem, france cucked itself by giving away a lot of its industry to make coop projects with other members and when push come to shove a lot of these members simply arent interested in any sort of common european interest, just their own
It does make sense for them to not want to coop with france on fighter jets, france have unique requirement that no one else has
>It's about strategic independence. It's about having a plane that you don't need authorization from the burgers to deploy.
I was under the impression that for similar diplomatic autism reasons the F-35 is not an American plane, it is explicitly an "American, British, Japanese and Italian plane" which may still be a bit of a limitation on the other dozen countries involved in it, but give those four complete strategic independence with domestically manufactured and deployed F-35s
>Didn't the Spanish try to copy paste one of your subs and royally frick it up? Why include them.
yeah: >be frogs, have a long history making submarines, having made the second military operational submarine ever, the Gymnote, a few weeks after the first one ever, the spanish Peral, by inventor Isaac Peral >who better than spaniards to ally with in the field of submarines? >let's just give spaniards the plans of the Daphné class >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphné-class_submarine >a few years later >since the cooperation is doing well let's give them the plans of the Agosta class >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agosta-class_submarine >more years later >we should definitely make a new sub together let's call it the Scorpene >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpène-class_submarine >2003 >spanish prime minister José Maria Aznar joins the war in Iraq >France opposed that war >Condoleeza Rice said the USA should "forgive Germany, forget Russia, PUNISH FRANCE" >Aznar wants to please the USA >oh non non non >JAJAJA nunca estuve realmente de tu lado, idiotas franceses >Spain's Navantia will make its own submarine based on the Scorpene but different thanks to 40 years of R&D given away by France in the name of being frens >The new spanish sub will have a US combat system, VLS for Tomahawks and compete against the french-spanish Scorpene on export markets >But Spain is still gonna work alongside DCNS (now Naval Group) on the Scorpene too, so Spain wins everytime >Naval Group goes full sacrebleu >Lawsuit >Navantia surrenders all rights on the Scorpene class which goes back being a 100% french product >Naval Group resumes making submarines >make the Barracuda SSN that fires MdCN cruise missiles >18 years later the S-80 still isn't operational due to constant yet hilarious frickups >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-80_Plus-class_submarine#History >Naval Group laughs as they sell conventional Barracuda to Australia >then AUKUS happens >REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
That's good in theory, but if the French really wanted to do that, they should have already finished their 5th gen program and should be much considerate of possible partners, they can't do it alone and they should accept that.
That’s understandable and all, but can yous swallow the cost of the program? Burger military R&D is out-of-fricking control and we have the largest military budget the next dozen countries combined.
Will your MIC (most western MIC companies are pretty in bed with one another) not frick you in the ass for this? And if they do, will you be able to take it and spit out an actual production jet at the end?
They've been butthurt not obtaining any work from LM on the F-35 lately so instead of getting angry at America, they threw a tantrum against France for whatever reason and said they'd be joining FCAS. This coming after they had previously insulted Dassault in 2018 for no other reason than to please their american masters. They said they'd be joining FCAS but won't buy any jet before they'd need to replace their F-35, so not before 2060. Dassault CEO said "nope get lost" and added he would fight off any decision trying to force him to work with the belgians, so the belgian MoD, a literal Karen doing tiktoks (see below) got super angry and attacked him. >https://www.tiktok.com/discover/dedonder-ludivine
The belgian MoD everyone.
Then yesterday during the Bourget Paris Air Show, Belgium obtained an "observer" status on the FCAS because Macron and Lecornu the french MoD are terminally ill basedropeans getting constantly shafted by other yuropeons yet asking for more.
Dassault's CEO said he was okay with Belgium having an observer status though, which basically means the belgians got jackshit from Dassault and are probably gonna throw another tantrum soon accusing Dassault of being selfish and arrogant for not sharing their intellectual property with literal choosing beggars.
Anyway now the belgians are apparently not interested in the NGF fighter anymore and said there was work to get on the remote carriers and drones. Which doesn't concerns Dassault as this is the job of Airbus so that explains it all.
It will be over in a few years after Germany and Spain fail to acquire any patent, know-how, or trade secrets from Dassault, which is their only goal.
For instance Dassault's CEO is not attending the joint meetings anymore. Those where Airbus are discussing how they're going to manage a programme using Dassault knowledge and claim it their own.
Literal "you made this? I made this" memelords.
Rafale's successor will be 100% french.
Screencap this.
If the Dassault builds a new plane on their own, it will be like the rafale, subpar and overly expensive, and like the rafale a commercial failure only bought by countries that for one reason or another cannot align with either the US or Russia. The rest of the EU will continue buying american, and the French will continue b***hing about 'betrayals'
This dude entered a cave in 2005 and just got out.
The Rafale is so subpar it is the most exported Eurocanard today with 285 jets sold to 7 foreign countries. It is both cheaper to buy and to operate compared to the Typhoon.
Here's a paper from some americans seething about this: >https://www.wsj.com/articles/this-20-year-old-french-jet-fighter-is-suddenly-outselling-rivals-66ba2
And why would anyone give a shit about Dassault/Rafale when both Germany and Spain are part of the Typhoon consortium, which is way more advanced and probably gives them complete inside into everything? Germany iirc also is building parts for the F-35.
So why did Germany came to France first to make a new fighter?
>acquire any patent, know-how, or trade secrets
An ironic complaint, considering the DGSEs involvement in industrial espionage in US Computer and aerospace manufacturing/research since the 90s
I’m not saying that this behavior is wrong, since the US is engaging in similar operations but maybe you shouldn’t throw stones from within the glass house 😉
>An ironic complaint, considering the DGSEs involvement in industrial espionage in US Computer and aerospace manufacturing/research since the 90s
Yeah right. Computer? What kind of computers is France making anon? We have almost nothing in this field.
Aerospace manufacturing? Everybody in this field use Dassault Systèmes softwares Catia, 3D experience, and Delmia. 3DS buying Solidworks doesn't mean it's spying.
Let me guess your source is that joker Robert Gates who was never ever able to provide a single clue, evidence, or proof about his "the french are the empire of evil in terms of espionnage, worse than China" little cheap talk eons ago?
The DGSE isn't able to protect shit regarding french state secrets and you think these guys are top notch spies?
Where's the smoking gun? For frick sake the DGSE took month to catch the german BND spying on former prime minister Laurent Fabius once, and yet the BND are notoriously bad at this.
The DGSE are the worst spies in the world and are very conscious about this.
Additionally and as an example, the french were the first to operate stealth frigates with the Lafayette class, since then everybody has been making lookalike warships. Who did the french spy on to achieve this feat tell me?
Anon, do you honestly believe Maxwell's equations aren't understood nor studied by french mathematicians? Physics are the same for everybody.
And why would anyone give a shit about Dassault/Rafale when both Germany and Spain are part of the Typhoon consortium, which is way more advanced and probably gives them complete inside into everything? Germany iirc also is building parts for the F-35.
to reduce cost on R&D and building, imagine the F35 but instead of having the US doing 99% of the work, they do less but everyone else on the project contribute just as much.
Also the FCAS just like the new tank being develloped is nothing but an existential nightmare simply because french and german autism can't mix
This would only make sense if other countries had the 2 trillion defense budget spending the US does you shitskin. There is literally 0 reason to invite nations unless they have anything big to offer like budget or knowledge.
This dude entered a cave in 2005 and just got out.
The Rafale is so subpar it is the most exported Eurocanard today with 285 jets sold to 7 foreign countries. It is both cheaper to buy and to operate compared to the Typhoon.
Here's a paper from some americans seething about this: >https://www.wsj.com/articles/this-20-year-old-french-jet-fighter-is-suddenly-outselling-rivals-66ba2
[...]
So why did Germany came to France first to make a new fighter?
[...] >An ironic complaint, considering the DGSEs involvement in industrial espionage in US Computer and aerospace manufacturing/research since the 90s
Yeah right. Computer? What kind of computers is France making anon? We have almost nothing in this field.
Aerospace manufacturing? Everybody in this field use Dassault Systèmes softwares Catia, 3D experience, and Delmia. 3DS buying Solidworks doesn't mean it's spying.
Let me guess your source is that joker Robert Gates who was never ever able to provide a single clue, evidence, or proof about his "the french are the empire of evil in terms of espionnage, worse than China" little cheap talk eons ago?
The DGSE isn't able to protect shit regarding french state secrets and you think these guys are top notch spies?
Where's the smoking gun? For frick sake the DGSE took month to catch the german BND spying on former prime minister Laurent Fabius once, and yet the BND are notoriously bad at this.
The DGSE are the worst spies in the world and are very conscious about this.
Additionally and as an example, the french were the first to operate stealth frigates with the Lafayette class, since then everybody has been making lookalike warships. Who did the french spy on to achieve this feat tell me?
Anon, do you honestly believe Maxwell's equations aren't understood nor studied by french mathematicians? Physics are the same for everybody.
>acquire any patent, know-how, or trade secrets
An ironic complaint, considering the DGSEs involvement in industrial espionage in US Computer and aerospace manufacturing/research since the 90s
I’m not saying that this behavior is wrong, since the US is engaging in similar operations but maybe you shouldn’t throw stones from within the glass house 😉
Solvay makes a lot of composites for hulls, you've got also got Asco and Esterline Belgium (ex-Barco) who make wienerpits. Other than that Sabena Aerospace, Sabca, Sonaca, Belgium Engine Center and Safran Aero Boosters are all fine companies who currently supply tech for the F35's as well.
To understand why Belgium wants to join, you have to understand it's internal politics. Currently the federal government is a broad coalition that relies heavily on big parties in wallonia. Walloons are regionalists and have a fairly competent aerospace industry (see ), flanders doesn't . Their whole game right now, a year from the next elections that are almost certainly going to create a very difficult government formation, is essentially to send as much money over to wallonia as possible. The walloon aerospace firms lobbied to buy a ticket into FCAS/SCAF, and the minister of defence, a walloon, was happy to oblige, because this investment essentially channels money from the federal level to the region of wallonia. The decision appears moronic from the outside because we just bought f-35's, but pretty much boils down to internal squabbling
EUanons,
Do you all actually fricking hate each other, or is it just bants? The way y'all talk to each other makes our most vitriolic politics look polite. I'd go ask PrepHole, but I don't imagine it'd be productive.
posts like
https://i.imgur.com/K3UYL5Y.jpg
They've been butthurt not obtaining any work from LM on the F-35 lately so instead of getting angry at America, they threw a tantrum against France for whatever reason and said they'd be joining FCAS. This coming after they had previously insulted Dassault in 2018 for no other reason than to please their american masters. They said they'd be joining FCAS but won't buy any jet before they'd need to replace their F-35, so not before 2060. Dassault CEO said "nope get lost" and added he would fight off any decision trying to force him to work with the belgians, so the belgian MoD, a literal Karen doing tiktoks (see below) got super angry and attacked him. >https://www.tiktok.com/discover/dedonder-ludivine
The belgian MoD everyone.
Then yesterday during the Bourget Paris Air Show, Belgium obtained an "observer" status on the FCAS because Macron and Lecornu the french MoD are terminally ill basedropeans getting constantly shafted by other yuropeons yet asking for more.
Dassault's CEO said he was okay with Belgium having an observer status though, which basically means the belgians got jackshit from Dassault and are probably gonna throw another tantrum soon accusing Dassault of being selfish and arrogant for not sharing their intellectual property with literal choosing beggars.
Anyway now the belgians are apparently not interested in the NGF fighter anymore and said there was work to get on the remote carriers and drones. Which doesn't concerns Dassault as this is the job of Airbus so that explains it all.
It will be over in a few years after Germany and Spain fail to acquire any patent, know-how, or trade secrets from Dassault, which is their only goal.
For instance Dassault's CEO is not attending the joint meetings anymore. Those where Airbus are discussing how they're going to manage a programme using Dassault knowledge and claim it their own.
Literal "you made this? I made this" memelords.
Rafale's successor will be 100% french.
Screencap this.
make me hate the french. They look down on us and are seething because we chose to bend over to the americans instead of them, but the fr*nchoid in his impotence has to take their anger out on us
Maybe it's just France always attracting hostility, then. It always does seem to involve France, excepting the Greece/Turkey shit.
How do you western Euros view eastern Europe?
>How do you western Euros view eastern Europe?
I don't really think about them, around here they mostly drive trucks. For me everything east of the iron curtain just seems very far away and not really related to us, even if they're EU members. They're seen as a backwards region with nothing really of note, no well-known food or culture. I do have a slightly negative opinion on poles, as they make germans look like reasonable people which is quite a feat
They've been butthurt not obtaining any work from LM on the F-35 lately so instead of getting angry at America, they threw a tantrum against France for whatever reason and said they'd be joining FCAS. This coming after they had previously insulted Dassault in 2018 for no other reason than to please their american masters. They said they'd be joining FCAS but won't buy any jet before they'd need to replace their F-35, so not before 2060. Dassault CEO said "nope get lost" and added he would fight off any decision trying to force him to work with the belgians, so the belgian MoD, a literal Karen doing tiktoks (see below) got super angry and attacked him. >https://www.tiktok.com/discover/dedonder-ludivine
The belgian MoD everyone.
Then yesterday during the Bourget Paris Air Show, Belgium obtained an "observer" status on the FCAS because Macron and Lecornu the french MoD are terminally ill basedropeans getting constantly shafted by other yuropeons yet asking for more.
Dassault's CEO said he was okay with Belgium having an observer status though, which basically means the belgians got jackshit from Dassault and are probably gonna throw another tantrum soon accusing Dassault of being selfish and arrogant for not sharing their intellectual property with literal choosing beggars.
Anyway now the belgians are apparently not interested in the NGF fighter anymore and said there was work to get on the remote carriers and drones. Which doesn't concerns Dassault as this is the job of Airbus so that explains it all.
It will be over in a few years after Germany and Spain fail to acquire any patent, know-how, or trade secrets from Dassault, which is their only goal.
For instance Dassault's CEO is not attending the joint meetings anymore. Those where Airbus are discussing how they're going to manage a programme using Dassault knowledge and claim it their own.
Literal "you made this? I made this" memelords.
Rafale's successor will be 100% french.
Screencap this. (You) make me hate the french. They look down on us and are seething because we chose to bend over to the americans instead of them, but the fr*nchoid in his impotence has to take their anger out on us
Holy shit my sides got milked then turned into cheese.
We don't ask anybody to bend over us. Many countries have not chosen the Rafale and we have no problems with that, it's their sovereign choice. However these countries didn't insult us for weeks to no end for making a proposal back then like Belgium did, and aren't coming back at us to get some work when the americans have not given them anything to do like Belgium is doing.
>belgian fighter jet procurement >dassault doesn't send in anything >deadline passes >french government offers a "package" outside of the procurement with a bunch of other bullshit >americans are still cheaper
what the frick did they expect to happen? It was perceived here as an extremely arrogant move, basically completely sidestepping the military and their own procedure >However these countries didn't insult us for weeks
lol, just admit that you view us as a dumb little vassal >and aren't coming back at us to get some work when the americans have not given them anything to do like Belgium is doing.
it's true that the aerospace industry isn't remotely happy with the industry return, but belgium as a nation is schizophrenic, there is virtually no continuity between governments in policy.
...I kind of get your point now but france started it. We are just a pawn trying to hold on to the NATO HQ
>What know-how does Belgium bring to the table?
None, but they'll order a dozen or so of them (if the program ever finishes, lol) and add a few million to the pot.
>Germany bought F-35 >so he is now opposed to Germany being a partner, leaving it a French program
Why can't the French just fricking work with others like partners for one single fricking time?
Everybody else in Europe WANTS to make a European plane, but the Frenmch shit things up every single time.
>Everybody else in Europe WANTS to make a European plane, but the French shit things up every single time.
The French don't actually want a European plane either. They want a French plane.
All of their warbling is in service to that unobtainable goal.
Spain can't operate anything except V/STOL planes, which is why currently they'll be utterly without a naval wing within four years as they retire their Harriers
Germany buying F-35 und P-8 changes the power dynamics between Germany and France because Germany has the state of the art stuff operating - leaving France with the older stuff in desperately need of replacement (especially in the case of P-8).
France was okay with the Francophile Merkel government to buy American F/A-18 planes but is suddenly offended when Germany buys for the same money F-35 planes. Should tell you everything.
Why do people pretend FCAS's problems aren't centered around Germany? It's not France's fault they bothered to develop advanced fighter technology and Germany didn't. Just because Germany wants strategic independence doesn't mean it gets it for free from somebody else.
>Imagining a world where France and Britain successfully co-operate on the European fighter programme in the 1980s and both countries operate CATOBAR aircraft carriers.
>Why can't the French just fricking work with others like partners for one single fricking time?
Yeah why can't the french accept to just give away all their stuff for free to actual freeloaders who don't got anything of value to bring?
Better question, if France and Dassault are so insufferable, why do everybody wants to make a jet with them? For instance why did the belgians said FCAS was more likely than GCAP?
Please answer so I can laugh at you more.
>Everybody else in Europe WANTS to make a European plane, but the Frenmch shit things up every single time.
Yeah every cannibal in Europe WANTS to cook and eat Dassault but Dassault refuses, what a bunch of arrogant frogs.
Topkek never change you mongs.
>Everybody else in Europe WANTS to make a European plane, but the French shit things up every single time.
The French don't actually want a European plane either. They want a French plane.
All of their warbling is in service to that unobtainable goal.
>unobtainable goal.
You reaching the IQ of an oyster is the actual unobtainable goal.
Germany buying F-35 und P-8 changes the power dynamics between Germany and France because Germany has the state of the art stuff operating - leaving France with the older stuff in desperately need of replacement (especially in the case of P-8).
France was okay with the Francophile Merkel government to buy American F/A-18 planes but is suddenly offended when Germany buys for the same money F-35 planes. Should tell you everything.
>Germany buying F-35 und P-8 changes the power dynamics
So Germany don't believe in the german industry but France should?
The only "power dynamic" changed is the fact germs look strong with the weak and weak with the strong.
Why do people pretend FCAS's problems aren't centered around Germany? It's not France's fault they bothered to develop advanced fighter technology and Germany didn't. Just because Germany wants strategic independence doesn't mean it gets it for free from somebody else.
Only good answer ITT so far.
Do you have an idea why the french are so mad at other european countries buying the better and cheaper F35 and also mad when they want to help them build a better and cheaper plane ?
>why the french are so mad at other european countries buying the better and cheaper F35
Why do other yuros want another jet if the F-35 is better and cheaper? >and also mad when they want to help them build a better and cheaper plane ?
LOL the Rafale is thrice cheaper to operate than the Typhoon and exported twice as much. You'd be helping nobody but yourselves.
They could give nukes to other key EU countries like the US does
>They could give nukes to other key EU countries like the US does >give nukes >like the US
This is what nu-/k/ actually believes.
The B61 are american-owned. The europeans with B61 stationed in their countries are no more than glorified pizza delivey boys. The europeans won't decide the day, the time, or the target of the nukes.
You want independant nukes? Make some yourselves you disgusting beggars.
This dude entered a cave in 2005 and just got out.
The Rafale is so subpar it is the most exported Eurocanard today with 285 jets sold to 7 foreign countries. It is both cheaper to buy and to operate compared to the Typhoon.
Here's a paper from some americans seething about this: >https://www.wsj.com/articles/this-20-year-old-french-jet-fighter-is-suddenly-outselling-rivals-66ba2
[...]
So why did Germany came to France first to make a new fighter?
[...] >An ironic complaint, considering the DGSEs involvement in industrial espionage in US Computer and aerospace manufacturing/research since the 90s
Yeah right. Computer? What kind of computers is France making anon? We have almost nothing in this field.
Aerospace manufacturing? Everybody in this field use Dassault Systèmes softwares Catia, 3D experience, and Delmia. 3DS buying Solidworks doesn't mean it's spying.
Let me guess your source is that joker Robert Gates who was never ever able to provide a single clue, evidence, or proof about his "the french are the empire of evil in terms of espionnage, worse than China" little cheap talk eons ago?
The DGSE isn't able to protect shit regarding french state secrets and you think these guys are top notch spies?
Where's the smoking gun? For frick sake the DGSE took month to catch the german BND spying on former prime minister Laurent Fabius once, and yet the BND are notoriously bad at this.
The DGSE are the worst spies in the world and are very conscious about this.
Additionally and as an example, the french were the first to operate stealth frigates with the Lafayette class, since then everybody has been making lookalike warships. Who did the french spy on to achieve this feat tell me?
Anon, do you honestly believe Maxwell's equations aren't understood nor studied by french mathematicians? Physics are the same for everybody.
Do you really have nothing better to do with your time than be butthurt about every post critical of France on an English(!) speaking imageboard?
It's France's national pastime to act like France is still all high and mighty in the world even though their empire bit the dust. At least the Brits have accepted the fact that they're no longer an empire. The French haven't gotten to that chapter of the book yet unfortunately.
EUanons,
Do you all actually fricking hate each other, or is it just bants? The way y'all talk to each other makes our most vitriolic politics look polite. I'd go ask PrepHole, but I don't imagine it'd be productive.
that shitshow is still going?
It's not about making a plane that's better than the F35, that shit's obviously not happening. It's about strategic independence. It's about having a plane that you don't need authorization from the burgers to deploy. Basically we don't want what happenned to the Argentinians with the exocet missiles to happen to us.
Idk why that's so hard to grasp.
t. frog
Makes sense to me.
Not like we lose anything by having the smart euros rub their heads together and see if they come up with anything cool.
>t. Burger
Do you have an idea why the french are so mad at other european countries buying the better and cheaper F35 and also mad when they want to help them build a better and cheaper plane ?
>Do you have an idea why the french
Well, they're French
it's part of a bigger problem, france cucked itself by giving away a lot of its industry to make coop projects with other members and when push come to shove a lot of these members simply arent interested in any sort of common european interest, just their own
It does make sense for them to not want to coop with france on fighter jets, france have unique requirement that no one else has
>It's about strategic independence. It's about having a plane that you don't need authorization from the burgers to deploy.
I was under the impression that for similar diplomatic autism reasons the F-35 is not an American plane, it is explicitly an "American, British, Japanese and Italian plane" which may still be a bit of a limitation on the other dozen countries involved in it, but give those four complete strategic independence with domestically manufactured and deployed F-35s
>the illusion of strategic independence
Ftfy
Didn't the Spanish try to copy paste one of your subs and royally frick it up? Why include them.
>Didn't the Spanish try to copy paste one of your subs and royally frick it up? Why include them.
yeah:
>be frogs, have a long history making submarines, having made the second military operational submarine ever, the Gymnote, a few weeks after the first one ever, the spanish Peral, by inventor Isaac Peral
>who better than spaniards to ally with in the field of submarines?
>let's just give spaniards the plans of the Daphné class
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphné-class_submarine
>a few years later
>since the cooperation is doing well let's give them the plans of the Agosta class
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agosta-class_submarine
>more years later
>we should definitely make a new sub together let's call it the Scorpene
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpène-class_submarine
>2003
>spanish prime minister José Maria Aznar joins the war in Iraq
>France opposed that war
>Condoleeza Rice said the USA should "forgive Germany, forget Russia, PUNISH FRANCE"
>Aznar wants to please the USA
>oh non non non
>JAJAJA nunca estuve realmente de tu lado, idiotas franceses
>Spain's Navantia will make its own submarine based on the Scorpene but different thanks to 40 years of R&D given away by France in the name of being frens
>The new spanish sub will have a US combat system, VLS for Tomahawks and compete against the french-spanish Scorpene on export markets
>But Spain is still gonna work alongside DCNS (now Naval Group) on the Scorpene too, so Spain wins everytime
>Naval Group goes full sacrebleu
>Lawsuit
>Navantia surrenders all rights on the Scorpene class which goes back being a 100% french product
>Naval Group resumes making submarines
>make the Barracuda SSN that fires MdCN cruise missiles
>18 years later the S-80 still isn't operational due to constant yet hilarious frickups
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-80_Plus-class_submarine#History
>Naval Group laughs as they sell conventional Barracuda to Australia
>then AUKUS happens
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Fin
That's good in theory, but if the French really wanted to do that, they should have already finished their 5th gen program and should be much considerate of possible partners, they can't do it alone and they should accept that.
That’s understandable and all, but can yous swallow the cost of the program? Burger military R&D is out-of-fricking control and we have the largest military budget the next dozen countries combined.
Will your MIC (most western MIC companies are pretty in bed with one another) not frick you in the ass for this? And if they do, will you be able to take it and spit out an actual production jet at the end?
They've been butthurt not obtaining any work from LM on the F-35 lately so instead of getting angry at America, they threw a tantrum against France for whatever reason and said they'd be joining FCAS. This coming after they had previously insulted Dassault in 2018 for no other reason than to please their american masters. They said they'd be joining FCAS but won't buy any jet before they'd need to replace their F-35, so not before 2060. Dassault CEO said "nope get lost" and added he would fight off any decision trying to force him to work with the belgians, so the belgian MoD, a literal Karen doing tiktoks (see below) got super angry and attacked him.
>https://www.tiktok.com/discover/dedonder-ludivine
The belgian MoD everyone.
Then yesterday during the Bourget Paris Air Show, Belgium obtained an "observer" status on the FCAS because Macron and Lecornu the french MoD are terminally ill basedropeans getting constantly shafted by other yuropeons yet asking for more.
Dassault's CEO said he was okay with Belgium having an observer status though, which basically means the belgians got jackshit from Dassault and are probably gonna throw another tantrum soon accusing Dassault of being selfish and arrogant for not sharing their intellectual property with literal choosing beggars.
Anyway now the belgians are apparently not interested in the NGF fighter anymore and said there was work to get on the remote carriers and drones. Which doesn't concerns Dassault as this is the job of Airbus so that explains it all.
It will be over in a few years after Germany and Spain fail to acquire any patent, know-how, or trade secrets from Dassault, which is their only goal.
For instance Dassault's CEO is not attending the joint meetings anymore. Those where Airbus are discussing how they're going to manage a programme using Dassault knowledge and claim it their own.
Literal "you made this? I made this" memelords.
Rafale's successor will be 100% french.
Screencap this.
If the Dassault builds a new plane on their own, it will be like the rafale, subpar and overly expensive, and like the rafale a commercial failure only bought by countries that for one reason or another cannot align with either the US or Russia. The rest of the EU will continue buying american, and the French will continue b***hing about 'betrayals'
This dude entered a cave in 2005 and just got out.
The Rafale is so subpar it is the most exported Eurocanard today with 285 jets sold to 7 foreign countries. It is both cheaper to buy and to operate compared to the Typhoon.
Here's a paper from some americans seething about this:
>https://www.wsj.com/articles/this-20-year-old-french-jet-fighter-is-suddenly-outselling-rivals-66ba2
So why did Germany came to France first to make a new fighter?
>An ironic complaint, considering the DGSEs involvement in industrial espionage in US Computer and aerospace manufacturing/research since the 90s
Yeah right. Computer? What kind of computers is France making anon? We have almost nothing in this field.
Aerospace manufacturing? Everybody in this field use Dassault Systèmes softwares Catia, 3D experience, and Delmia. 3DS buying Solidworks doesn't mean it's spying.
Let me guess your source is that joker Robert Gates who was never ever able to provide a single clue, evidence, or proof about his "the french are the empire of evil in terms of espionnage, worse than China" little cheap talk eons ago?
The DGSE isn't able to protect shit regarding french state secrets and you think these guys are top notch spies?
Where's the smoking gun? For frick sake the DGSE took month to catch the german BND spying on former prime minister Laurent Fabius once, and yet the BND are notoriously bad at this.
The DGSE are the worst spies in the world and are very conscious about this.
Additionally and as an example, the french were the first to operate stealth frigates with the Lafayette class, since then everybody has been making lookalike warships. Who did the french spy on to achieve this feat tell me?
Anon, do you honestly believe Maxwell's equations aren't understood nor studied by french mathematicians? Physics are the same for everybody.
And why would anyone give a shit about Dassault/Rafale when both Germany and Spain are part of the Typhoon consortium, which is way more advanced and probably gives them complete inside into everything? Germany iirc also is building parts for the F-35.
to reduce cost on R&D and building, imagine the F35 but instead of having the US doing 99% of the work, they do less but everyone else on the project contribute just as much.
Also the FCAS just like the new tank being develloped is nothing but an existential nightmare simply because french and german autism can't mix
This would only make sense if other countries had the 2 trillion defense budget spending the US does you shitskin. There is literally 0 reason to invite nations unless they have anything big to offer like budget or knowledge.
Merkel and her pro France shit most likely?
>Merkel and her pro France shit most likely?
Merkel
Pro France
lmao you guys are not just clowns you're the whole circus.
>acquire any patent, know-how, or trade secrets
An ironic complaint, considering the DGSEs involvement in industrial espionage in US Computer and aerospace manufacturing/research since the 90s
I’m not saying that this behavior is wrong, since the US is engaging in similar operations but maybe you shouldn’t throw stones from within the glass house 😉
>tempturd coper
Solvay makes a lot of composites for hulls, you've got also got Asco and Esterline Belgium (ex-Barco) who make wienerpits. Other than that Sabena Aerospace, Sabca, Sonaca, Belgium Engine Center and Safran Aero Boosters are all fine companies who currently supply tech for the F35's as well.
Safran is already part of the project, in a joint venture with MTU Aero Engines.
> mtu aero
Germs cannot into modern jet engine, simple as, luckily safran was there to cover their ass :^)
>mtu
they will find the new jet engine meta like they did with tank engines in the late 70's
> g*rm subhumans
> invent new meta
Very poor b8. I rate 1/488 :^)
>invented it
A knowledgeable answer so early in the thread? I wouldn't have expected that from nu-/k/.
Cheers.
>"belgian airforce"
>when english isn't their national language
is there a better way to see if a country's culture has been cucked to death?
I've seen Yukikaze. Thats a jam fighter! ITS THE JAM!
To understand why Belgium wants to join, you have to understand it's internal politics. Currently the federal government is a broad coalition that relies heavily on big parties in wallonia. Walloons are regionalists and have a fairly competent aerospace industry (see ), flanders doesn't . Their whole game right now, a year from the next elections that are almost certainly going to create a very difficult government formation, is essentially to send as much money over to wallonia as possible. The walloon aerospace firms lobbied to buy a ticket into FCAS/SCAF, and the minister of defence, a walloon, was happy to oblige, because this investment essentially channels money from the federal level to the region of wallonia. The decision appears moronic from the outside because we just bought f-35's, but pretty much boils down to internal squabbling
posts like
make me hate the french. They look down on us and are seething because we chose to bend over to the americans instead of them, but the fr*nchoid in his impotence has to take their anger out on us
Maybe it's just France always attracting hostility, then. It always does seem to involve France, excepting the Greece/Turkey shit.
How do you western Euros view eastern Europe?
>How do you western Euros view eastern Europe?
I don't really think about them, around here they mostly drive trucks. For me everything east of the iron curtain just seems very far away and not really related to us, even if they're EU members. They're seen as a backwards region with nothing really of note, no well-known food or culture. I do have a slightly negative opinion on poles, as they make germans look like reasonable people which is quite a feat
Thanks for sharing, EUanon.
>posts like
They've been butthurt not obtaining any work from LM on the F-35 lately so instead of getting angry at America, they threw a tantrum against France for whatever reason and said they'd be joining FCAS. This coming after they had previously insulted Dassault in 2018 for no other reason than to please their american masters. They said they'd be joining FCAS but won't buy any jet before they'd need to replace their F-35, so not before 2060. Dassault CEO said "nope get lost" and added he would fight off any decision trying to force him to work with the belgians, so the belgian MoD, a literal Karen doing tiktoks (see below) got super angry and attacked him.
>https://www.tiktok.com/discover/dedonder-ludivine
The belgian MoD everyone.
Then yesterday during the Bourget Paris Air Show, Belgium obtained an "observer" status on the FCAS because Macron and Lecornu the french MoD are terminally ill basedropeans getting constantly shafted by other yuropeons yet asking for more.
Dassault's CEO said he was okay with Belgium having an observer status though, which basically means the belgians got jackshit from Dassault and are probably gonna throw another tantrum soon accusing Dassault of being selfish and arrogant for not sharing their intellectual property with literal choosing beggars.
Anyway now the belgians are apparently not interested in the NGF fighter anymore and said there was work to get on the remote carriers and drones. Which doesn't concerns Dassault as this is the job of Airbus so that explains it all.
It will be over in a few years after Germany and Spain fail to acquire any patent, know-how, or trade secrets from Dassault, which is their only goal.
For instance Dassault's CEO is not attending the joint meetings anymore. Those where Airbus are discussing how they're going to manage a programme using Dassault knowledge and claim it their own.
Literal "you made this? I made this" memelords.
Rafale's successor will be 100% french.
Screencap this. (You) make me hate the french. They look down on us and are seething because we chose to bend over to the americans instead of them, but the fr*nchoid in his impotence has to take their anger out on us
Holy shit my sides got milked then turned into cheese.
We don't ask anybody to bend over us. Many countries have not chosen the Rafale and we have no problems with that, it's their sovereign choice. However these countries didn't insult us for weeks to no end for making a proposal back then like Belgium did, and aren't coming back at us to get some work when the americans have not given them anything to do like Belgium is doing.
>belgian fighter jet procurement
>dassault doesn't send in anything
>deadline passes
>french government offers a "package" outside of the procurement with a bunch of other bullshit
>americans are still cheaper
what the frick did they expect to happen? It was perceived here as an extremely arrogant move, basically completely sidestepping the military and their own procedure
>However these countries didn't insult us for weeks
lol, just admit that you view us as a dumb little vassal
>and aren't coming back at us to get some work when the americans have not given them anything to do like Belgium is doing.
it's true that the aerospace industry isn't remotely happy with the industry return, but belgium as a nation is schizophrenic, there is virtually no continuity between governments in policy.
...I kind of get your point now but france started it. We are just a pawn trying to hold on to the NATO HQ
Rafales are beautiful planes btw
>Rafales are beautiful planes btw
They're ugly just like the french
>Walloons are regionalists
the Flemish aren't?
>What know-how does Belgium bring to the table?
None, but they'll order a dozen or so of them (if the program ever finishes, lol) and add a few million to the pot.
It increases the odds of France abandooning the others and going it alone, leaving them to buy Tempest
Tempest will never be a thing, the UK can’t even fund it.
Which is why it was reformed into GCAP. Which will be a thing.
>Germany bought F-35
>so he is now opposed to Germany being a partner, leaving it a French program
Why can't the French just fricking work with others like partners for one single fricking time?
Everybody else in Europe WANTS to make a European plane, but the Frenmch shit things up every single time.
>Everybody else in Europe WANTS to make a European plane, but the French shit things up every single time.
The French don't actually want a European plane either. They want a French plane.
All of their warbling is in service to that unobtainable goal.
Who else in Europe wants carrier operability? England and Italy, both of whom aren’t involved.
And Spain, which is.
In fact with Spain and France having asked for it multiple times the only ones not in favor of it right now are the germans.
Spain can't operate anything except V/STOL planes, which is why currently they'll be utterly without a naval wing within four years as they retire their Harriers
Germany buying F-35 und P-8 changes the power dynamics between Germany and France because Germany has the state of the art stuff operating - leaving France with the older stuff in desperately need of replacement (especially in the case of P-8).
France was okay with the Francophile Merkel government to buy American F/A-18 planes but is suddenly offended when Germany buys for the same money F-35 planes. Should tell you everything.
>France was okay with the Francophile Merkel government to buy American F/A-18
We weren't ok at all about that moron.
Never trust France.
>Never trust France.
Never trust the USA either, numbnuts.
Why do people pretend FCAS's problems aren't centered around Germany? It's not France's fault they bothered to develop advanced fighter technology and Germany didn't. Just because Germany wants strategic independence doesn't mean it gets it for free from somebody else.
Because France needs a nuclear capable and CATOBAR capable fighter, something nobody else wants
>Imagining a world where France and Britain successfully co-operate on the European fighter programme in the 1980s and both countries operate CATOBAR aircraft carriers.
le sigh
>And both countries operate the same type of CATOBAR carrier, maximizing interoperability, while now developing FCAS together
What went to wrong Bongbros?
They could give nukes to other key EU countries like the US does
>Why can't the French just fricking work with others like partners for one single fricking time?
Yeah why can't the french accept to just give away all their stuff for free to actual freeloaders who don't got anything of value to bring?
Better question, if France and Dassault are so insufferable, why do everybody wants to make a jet with them? For instance why did the belgians said FCAS was more likely than GCAP?
Please answer so I can laugh at you more.
>Everybody else in Europe WANTS to make a European plane, but the Frenmch shit things up every single time.
Yeah every cannibal in Europe WANTS to cook and eat Dassault but Dassault refuses, what a bunch of arrogant frogs.
Topkek never change you mongs.
>unobtainable goal.
You reaching the IQ of an oyster is the actual unobtainable goal.
>Germany buying F-35 und P-8 changes the power dynamics
So Germany don't believe in the german industry but France should?
The only "power dynamic" changed is the fact germs look strong with the weak and weak with the strong.
Only good answer ITT so far.
>why the french are so mad at other european countries buying the better and cheaper F35
Why do other yuros want another jet if the F-35 is better and cheaper?
>and also mad when they want to help them build a better and cheaper plane ?
LOL the Rafale is thrice cheaper to operate than the Typhoon and exported twice as much. You'd be helping nobody but yourselves.
>They could give nukes to other key EU countries like the US does
>give nukes
>like the US
This is what nu-/k/ actually believes.
The B61 are american-owned. The europeans with B61 stationed in their countries are no more than glorified pizza delivey boys. The europeans won't decide the day, the time, or the target of the nukes.
You want independant nukes? Make some yourselves you disgusting beggars.
Do you really have nothing better to do with your time than be butthurt about every post critical of France on an English(!) speaking imageboard?
It's France's national pastime to act like France is still all high and mighty in the world even though their empire bit the dust. At least the Brits have accepted the fact that they're no longer an empire. The French haven't gotten to that chapter of the book yet unfortunately.
france has a pathological need to make as much of their military as in house as possible, especially when they shouldn't.
Military procuckment
Absolutely b***hing livery?
Fokkers are back on the table?
There is zero chance Belgium will buy FCAS TBF.
>There is zero chance Belgium will buy FCAS TBF.
Maybe some as drones? Who knows. Our current drones are fricking ass.
Trappist Ale.
EUanons,
Do you all actually fricking hate each other, or is it just bants? The way y'all talk to each other makes our most vitriolic politics look polite. I'd go ask PrepHole, but I don't imagine it'd be productive.
I'm Belgian and I personally don't. I think people just get really worked up online for some reason. That said I do fricking hate Russia though.
Hating Russia is entirely understandable. Frogs and Germs just seem to REALLY hate each other on /k/.
I hope you're able to enjoy firearms.
What in the frick is an Observor in a joint weapon development program??