at the end of the day, isnt it worth it for Russians since they will kill shitton of Ukrainians trapped in the city?
Yes they sacrificed a lot but they can afford to take manpower losses in these proportions and Ukraine can't
I fail to see how this is bad for Russia
at the end of the day, isnt it worth it for Russians since they will kill shitton of Ukrainians trapped in the city?
at the end of the day, isnt it worth it for Russians since they will kill shitton of Ukrainians trapped in the city?
>if I spend 10,000 dollars to buy a 1,000 dollar bill, how is that bad for me?
if i have 100k and you have 20k and i spent 10k and you spent 5k
who is better off?
I have $100K. You have $20K.
I want your house.
I spend $10K so that you lose $5K, thinking that because you are going broke you will eventually leave the house so I can walk in and take it.
But...at the same time, a bunch of neighbors that hate me give you $7K for free because they don't want me in your house. And now they hate me even more, and got more neighbors to hate me.
How is that bad for me?
How is that bad for
The discussion is about manpower not money or equipment, we know the West can supply Ukraine with infinite equipment
But what is the use of equipment if there's no one to use it?
Ukraine hasn't even started with war time mobilization numbers. They just don't have the equipment for it.
Neither has Russia started with it, but they also start using vehicles from 1952 by now and will soon have a lot of men with rusty guns and maybe some cars.
guys vietnam lost 1 milliones muchachos ?!?!?!?
who are they even going to get to hold a rifle .
2 more weeks to ho chi minh !
You are comparing 100k to 20k, probably because Russia has 5x the population of Ukraine. Are you sure that Russia can keep a proportionally comparable war effort to Ukraine? i.e. field, supply and keep morale of 5 times Ukraine's armed forces in foreign ground while Ukraine fights for survival with the aid of the West?
You are also assuming that Russia only loses twice the amount of troops as Ukraine and I'm not sure of that. Maybe Russian artillery is being effective and we're just not seeing it, but it would appear that they are losing more than that.
>You are comparing 100k to 20k, probably because Russia has 5x the population of Ukraine.
Only 3x, actually. Russia does not have anywhere near as much of a manpower advantage as they imagine.
Slightly more than 3x but I think the greater ratio of women over men in Russia compared to Ukraine brings the "able bodies men" count closer to 3x.
Every bit of Ukraine is important to some degree for morale purposes and they've been using the town's defense to grind down Russian forces, which by all accounts is exactly what's been happening. Strategically it means absolutely nothing should Russians capture it, they'll merely roll up to the next carefully planned killzone to throw their meatwaves at not unlike how the heavy price paid for Soledar resulted in zero further notable gains and only more disastrous fumbled assaults on Bakhmut.
Well, a majority of your 100k is actually degraded currency that can longer be used in transactions, while my 20k has been kept in an air-tight container. While you certainly have more on paper, I can get further with my 20k. If you spend 10k that you had to scrap together out of the pile of moldy bills then you will certainly run into trouble sooner than me spending 5k from my crisp stack of well preserved currency.
I feel retarded using this metaphor but I tried to make it work, anyways, more manpower doesn't mean you can afford more losses, it just means you have a larger pool to select from. Russians, as much as we like to shit on them, are not insects. While Ukrainians are fighting for their survival, Russians are fighting something they don't really even believe in. Sooner or later the weeping mothers and wives will become louder than the engine of a Lada.
Yeah but you see, the 1,000 dollar bill will be stolen from someone they hate, which makes it worth it in their eyes.
russians are fucked in the head
>we can always just print more money
If 5000 people just pushed northwest during the night in vehicles I doubt Russia could do a lot about it.
This isn't mariupol, there are still vehicles able to get there and it's still not surrounded.
>at the end of the day, isnt it worth it for Russians
it entirely depends on follow up events
>but they can afford to take manpower losses in these proportions
Can they? I'm not sure they can. The Russia of today is not the Russia of WW2. Yes they have a high population, but do they have capable, physically fit young men willing to fight in this war?
even if they cant advance further, they can establish new lines of defense and sit on them for years like they did in 2014
then re-ignite the advance once they have enough power
they have more land than they started with
This is the worst possible course of action rusmil can take. People of russia want to see whole of Donbass liberated and will not allow for a ceasefire to commence right outside Artyomovsk. They need to at least get to Kramatorsk-Slovyansk line before talking about hunkering down
Who gives a fuck what Russian population think? Definitely not their government.
Russians will take a shitton of abuse before instability becomes an issue but shitton =/= infinite amount
they can't throw hundreds of thousands of people into a wood chipper for some shitty half-destroyed oblasts, especially when the rich market they were relying on (europe) wants them to fuck off so economy's going to worsen and worsen with time
you mean like how they setup defences in and around kherson/kharkiv/kyiv and how they sat on them like they did in 2014?
That doesn't make sense though. If the goal is to just freeze the conflict along the current frontline and prevent the yukes from advancing until you've reconstituted enough of your force for more offensive operations, why would you do that *after* killing off a significant amount of your own men over some random town? Not to mention the amount if shells and other material expended. That just means you have less resources to mount an effective defense against the inevitable ukrainian counterattacks. It's literally worse than doing nothing.
Nothing Russia does makes sense, stopping the advance at 2014 made no sense either
but Russians don't follow logic they just do what the monke commands
They need a win, and they can recruit and train more than Ukraine can honestly, and attrition early in the game is better than later when even more western aid arrives and political pressure ramps up within Russia. That's the real reason.
>and they can recruit and train more than Ukraine can honestly
For a very loose definition of "train" given that sending soldiers into battle with nothing but machetes tends not to work against people with machine guns.
They will be subject to incessant HIMARS strikes. For years, if necessary.
Also, Russian civilians in major urban centers will probably be subject to terrorist attacks.
Considering how many Russians rooting for the SMO are old fucks nostalgic for the Soviet/Imperial era, forming ten new VDV Boomer Brigades would be only fair and just.
Russia muh endless wave of soldier is a myth. Not even myth worthy, just t-14 armata level cope
That is true but Ukraine's soldier supply is also slowly draining away
Even by good estimations the kill death ratio is 2 Russians for 1 Ukrainian soldier which favors Russia since they have more than twice manpower
Where do you get this info? There was never 1 to 2 ratio, maybe at the beginning before himars arrived when Ukraine had little support from the west. It was reported 1 Ukrainian for 5-8 Russian soldiers recently
that's the recent cope they all got. also btw at the start russia still lost more men cause they came unprepared and got slaughtered in retarded ways all over the place.
Where do you get this 1 to 8 info?
If it was actually 1 to 8 they wouldnt be advancing non stop for 2 month already
and the best have fled already close to 900k by October. Trade groups cry a lot about it that almost 100k high skill workers like IT left already.
they are prepping to mobilize students next, so its kinda understandable
>they are prepping to mobilize students next
war going so well they need to trim down their student population to sustain the effort?
Russia was already mobilizing people in high skilled professions like neural surgeons last autumn, they are not being smart about this.
It's apparently a slow roll hidden mobilization for spring/April/May. No big announcement, just more letters.
Keep in mind, many students did a type of short military service/training to get bonus points if they didn't have the grades. (kinda like the GI bills) So they were always a high risk group.
>get shit grades
should've done your homework bitch
pity for those who wanted to get a degree and gtfo
They dont have a high population. Its only 120million. They are taking insane and unsustainable losses atm.
Russia can sustain these losses indefinitely though.
yes because russians just keep on cloning themselves
It can't, less than a million russians a year turn 18
isnt it even less for Ukraine? Ukraine has a major population decline problem as well
Russians have all those Muslim minorities who still reproduce in mass numbers
Ukraine already mobilized the economy for the war effort. Russia will have to decide if they want to spawn more meat on the battlefield or introduce more people in the economy to reinvigorate its military-industrial complex. Can't have both.
>Russia can sustain these losses indefinitely though
Go look at Russian birth vs death rates for the last 30+ years lmao
>Russia can sustain these losses
this sounds like hardcore propaganda but at this point I'm genuinely unsure if it is
It was an interview with a POW belonging to the 155th
interviews with POWs are always hard to really trust as an accurate source of information, but after seeing those videos from Vuhledar of BMP after BMP just going straight into the minefield it doesn't seem that unbelievable to me
This is cope. We already know that Wagner recruited 50,000 convicts from prisons. Literally all of them could end up as Russian 'losses' and nobody is going to give a shit about them.
Just because Russia is a demonic death cult it does not mean their recruiting pool is infinite or even that Putin will risk his ass and declare general mobilization.
That's not something good, especially considering the state of Russian jurisprudence.
I don't know if you serious but its clearly dire. This isn't even a world war. It isn't even a war according to Putin and its clear to any sane person that Russia is fucked economically for decades hence regardless of the outcome.
For context, even when the British Army was properly funded to fight the red army, the total strength was about 200,000. Russia already lost 150k+.
Russia lost an entire army's worth of men and equipment in a conflict against little Ukraine, for no gain. NATO hasnt even in their words, "raised their eyebrows". If Russians had any backbone, they would hang Putin several times over just on that record alone.
I think you underestimate how much Russians give a fuck about casualties. Especially when they're getting ride of their prison population by just pouring it into Ukraine. Like this shit is pretty normal before every war just turned into a glorified police operation like Afghanistan and Iraq.
Westoids really don't understand Russian doctrine, they can only look at it through a Western casualty sensitive lens where even the loss of a single tank is a near catastrophe that shakes the foundation of their military. Yeah Russia tried their ebin 'Rush B' strategy at the start and got fucked up, but now they've gone back to their classic. Massive artillery spam that Ukraine doesn't really have an answer to.
>Massive artillery spam that Ukraine doesn't really have an answer to.
Counter-arty and tanks, simple as.
What you don't understand is that numbers don't matter nearly as much anymore. You need the logistics and weapons to equip and feed and clothe your soldiers, and Russia has none of that.
>What you don't understand is that numbers don't matter nearly as much anymore.
But they do. Russia has an industrial economy, even if its 'worse' than the Western ones. The West can barely supply Ukraine with anything. The Western military industrial complex isn't built for industrial warfare any more. Like yeah, you can get the Raytheon Ultrashell2000 that costs $100,000 each but they can only make 50 a year or whatever.
>I just believe you overestimate their ability to replace casualties with effective front line troops.
From what I can see, apart from a few high profile humiliations, most of their losses are going to be Donbabwean milita and Wagner prisoner cannon fodder
>I think you underestimate how much Russians give a fuck about casualties.
No. I don't. I just believe you overestimate their ability to replace casualties with effective front line troops.
>15th Bahkmut thread today, thinly veiled Vatnig gloating and justification
Something tells me that something big has happened.
I'm not a vatnig I support Ukraine but I try to view this from objective pov not rose tinted glasses
They had their own shaed day only that ukrane atcualy hit the oil bases where it hurts
Don't forget their AA had a 0% interception rate.
Have you missed all the airstrikes on Russian oil depots overnight?
yeah i have, do you have videos? i like explosions.
But the city isn't even surrounded yet?
Reminder that Mariupol lasted 2 months after being completely surrounded.
Mariupol had the steel plant bunkers which were immune to artillery fire
idk if Bakhmut has anything like that, once its surrounded it will be barraged from all sides with nowhere to go
>idk if Bakhmut has anything like that
Every Soviet city has something like that. One of the lessons the Soviet Union learned from Volgagrad.
>Yes they sacrificed a lot but they can afford to take manpower losses in these proportions
Except they can't.
Prove it, chud.
Russia is already having to pull out WW2 weapons to arm its soldiers with and they still haven't been able to push forward. At this point even if they tried to conscript more soldiers theyd all be wasted anyways since without winter clothes or food or weapons they'll just freeze to death or surrender to the Ukies.
Not only is Russia losing all of it's young people in this conflict due to death/injuries, but the ones with half a brain has already left the country. Yeah it's not gonna be great for Ukraine either but they atleast have some sort of Marshal Plan/EU Gibs dangling above them when the war is finished which could have a baby boom impact similar to WW2, with also alot of Ukrainians returning. I don't see how Russia could turn this around, especially as all of it's industries and state apparatuses have been hollowed out for military investments and yachts with an aging leadership and no clear ideology other than "fuck HATO".
Russia can absolutely afford losses more than Ukraine can. People do all kinds of mental gymnastics cope on here to avoid accepting the fact that if it comes to attritional warfare, the country with 140 million people has the advantage over the one with 40 million
>the country with 140 million people has the advantage over the one with 40 million
Except the country with 140 million people only has the resources to arm maybe a couple million, while tens of millions of people in the country of 40 million can be armed as supplies flow in.
>Russia can absolutely afford losses more than Ukraine can
Ukraine has a larger manpower pool to pull from than Russia does.
I'm sorry but it is true.
>b--b-b-but muh 140 million ;~~*(
Ukraine's sovereign debt and economy is being underwritten and guaranteed by the west. Yes. I know. The bombs and the tanks get all the attention, but the REAL aid is financial.
Always has been. Always will be.
Russia doesn't have that. They don't have anyone. Which means they need their men to produce products, services, and still maintain healthy levels of internal consumption. Can't do that if the men are fleeing with their wives to parts unknown to avoid mobilization (as some millions already have), or becoming a casualty of war in some Ukrainian backwater (as some hundreds of thousands already have).
Russia's handling of men as entirely expendable is a habit as antiquated as the weeping explosives they're pulling out of storage, and both are about equally stable long term.
lol the russian economy is already crippled for generations after one year of sanctions.African economies can grow as well but there is still a technological hiatus between them and the developed world.
I trust rosstat
>"The sanctions will not hurt us! Our ruble is strong!"
>proceeds to lose 6% of their GDP in a single year
>proceeds to drop even further
Forgone growth is also a loss Ivan. You were on track to grow by 3% in 2022 and you dropped by at least 3% instead. Also, leave the Brits alone, they thought it would be smart to leave the EU. It's like making fun of a downie for being a downie, it's not their fault that they are the way they are.
Sanctions are also mowing Russia's reserves at a dangerous rate, even more so when oil sanctions start to bite.
Russia's economy is expected to see positive growth next year, unlike Britain's.
>Russia's economy is expected to see positive growth next year
Global south economies are expected to grow more than Russia. See where that logic leads you
Equipment will attrition must faster than manpower. Long before manpower becomes an issue for either side, one of them will have run out of working trucks to bring supplies forward, and it's not gonna be Ukraine.
>Yes, yeah, sure, Russian officials make up numbers here and there, election results, economic results, military numbers, covid deaths etc. HOWEVER THE POPULATION NUMBERS are 100% real. There are REALLY 140 citizens living in Russia. No way they would double count, count economic migrants from Central Asia, donbabweans and other “passport holders” etc. just to suck up to their superiors to make it look as if the plan is getting overfilled...
What’s that encirclement thing above Bakhmut?
>the side that's losing ground is actually trading casualties in 1-10 ratio
This board is such a sad sight, yeah sure dude, the side that has static defences getting pounded by artillery every minute is taking no loses
because bakhmut is insignificant, it's been stated time and time again, that only a small number of soldiers are actually there defending it. and russian artillery is incredibly inaccurate so they aren't hitting shit. of course there's losses still, but nowhere close to russian meat waves tactics.
It was stated time and time again by random morons from PrepHole literally everywhere else people think it's important, people like Zelensky
>Ukraine is winning because of imaginary rules I made in my head
Get a fucking grip
most analystis assess Bakhmut to be of no operational significance without Izium.
>because bakhmut is insignificant
If they take bakhmut and the town after, they can move up about 150 miles before hitting the next spot thats really defensible
>and the next town after
They still haven't taken Bahkmut yet, and are even possibly being counter attacked and encircled. So 'taking Bahkmut and the next town then rolling forward 150k' isn't exactly simple.
The most likely fallout will be Russians carry on dying around Bahkmut and then Ukriane counters when they feel its right and the exhausted survivors rout.
Russia has been claiming ammo and manpower shortages on its side for a month now you can see it coming.
I still can't believe that you vatmorons want us to believe that the side that is entrenched and defending is losing more soldiers than those who have been constantly attacking with human waves with marginal gains for over 6 months.
>Ukraine got encircled in Bakhmut pssst doesn't matter because I made it up in my mind that Russia lost 8 soldiers per Ukranian killed and also that the city is not important, your move vatnigs !?!?!?!
This board has devolved into NO U arguments
got encircled in Bakhmut
May we see it?
>Ukraine is trading 1-10
May I see it? Provide a source that shows a third party going to Ukraine and individually iding and counting every corpse or stfu
>a third party going to Ukraine
You'll have to wait for the post-war period to get anything remotely resembling like that. And they won't be standing around counting corpses (who knows what the elements and animals will have done by then) but rather looking over documentation.
So, not immediately post-war either. It will probably takes years of pouring over documents from the Kremlin after they unconditionally surrender to grasp the full scale of their depravity.
Till then, we merely have to make due with speculation and the scare (but regular) video evidence we have.
So the side that is more active in twitter is winning ? Damn son that's some logic
>So the side that is more active in twitter is winning ? Damn son that's some logic
No, it's youtube and telegram you goyslop slurping chud.
I know you don't have a farther but DO try and pretend someone raised you well, ok?
>sperge poasting about gay fantasy fictions
(You) have nothing to contribute here. Bye.
I don't have exact numbers but here you go
I have a mossad report that claims the opposite of your "third party" sources from countries that literally train Ukrainian troops inside their borders but ok
Post it then.
it's not a mossad report though. retard.
Nah you have a Turkish article claiming a Mossad source with no evidence. We live in the digital age check your sources.
And you have anglo american articles quoting Ukrainian sources with no evidence
Your ridiculous propaganda sources can be countered by ridiculous propaganda sources
Except those are credible and high-fidelity sources while yours are schizo bloggers or plain russian lies. It's no surprise russians don't have a concept of absolute truth, everything must be fabricate by the autocrat in order for them to eat.
>My American propaganda is a trustworthy source unlike johnny foreigner propaganda
Have you ever considered you believe that because you're under the effects of said propaganda?
No because I'm not American and also because I live in a free country and have a rational soul that can grasp reality as it is, objectively, and assess what is credible and what is not.
If you are from the anglosphere you're American, you don't have an independent culture or geopolitical stance
If you are from western Europe you're heavily under American influence to various degrees depending on which country
If you are from anywhere else fuck off shitskin
>If you are from western Europe you're heavily under American influence to various degrees depending on which country
That still doesn't contest the fact that I live in a free country and possess rational faculties that allow to discern what is credible, and the sources I quoted are reputed nor just in Western Europe but elsewhere, mostly because it is not a matter of opinion but actual military intelligence. If you live in a totalitarian regime like Russia information is bound to be twisted to serve the regime.
>that I live in a free country and possess rational faculties that allow to discern what is credible
I wonder what's the official stance of your beloved newspapers when asked the question "how many genders exist" and I'm sure they don't make up propaganda that aligns with the interests of western oligarchs at all
You're like a little baby
>I wonder what's the official stance of your beloved newspapers when asked the question "how many genders exist"
Lol that's the thing, newspapers don't have "oficial stances", they either publish opinion pieces and it's worth what it's worth depending on who wrote it or the quality of the content, or they cite experts on a matter which was the case with military intelligence.
The fact that you think that newspapers have official stances and that expertise isn't a factor goes to show you probably live in a totalitarian regime where everything is muddled.
Ok link me an opinion piece published in the BBC where they question the number of casualties in the Holocaust
I'll be waiting
We need to permanently ban every 4chan user.
Uh ? You said glorious western newspapers don't have official stances so surely there is an opinion article about Holocaust revisionism, go fetch it
I wasn't that anon, I'm just calling you fucking retarded.
I don't care about the opinion of some random, read what actual historians have to say.
>If you are from the anglosphere you're American, you don't have an independent culture or geopolitical stance
>vatnik telegram bloggers are the only people on the planet who have any idea of what's going on
Not even, it's a Turkish article taking info from an Iranian blog claiming to have leaked Mossad numbers.
you retards do realize there is no more than 5000 Ukrainian troops in the city right? Even if all of them end up encircled, which is very unlikely, this would change nothing.
5k well trained well equipped soldiers is a lot
unlike Russians, Ukrainians value every single life
losing 5k is a blow to morale as well
yeah sure but russians make it sound like half the Ukrainian army is defending that city which is laughable. Sure having all of those troops encircled would be bad but come on, how many troops Ukraine fields in total now, 300k?
>trapped in the city
Russia hasn't trapped a sizable amount of Ukrainians since Mariupol. What makes you think they will do it here?
It's worth just for the crazy PrepHoleope we are gonna see here
Actually Ukraine losing Bakhmut and having 5k (According to pro Ukraine analysts) troops encircled is a good thing because Ukranians killed 10 Russians for every loss (According to the Kyiv independent) so why worry?
There's not even like any
>ok relax relax, we have the xxth army ready to go, watch this we'll attempt a pocket
shit. It's just
>blyat send another 200 men
>men with no bulges? amazing, the troops won't want to rape them
It's all bewildering to me tbh.
>shitton of Ukrainians trapped in the city
Not really. Bakhmut started out with 70-75K population 8 months ago. As of last week it was down to under 5000, possibly under 4000. The Ukies have been aggressively trying to evacuate everyone they can for almost the entire offensive. The place is basically a gravel pit now without any utilities, no water, electricity, stores. What little food & supplies are brought in as humanitarian aid by the Ukies.
The very last few holdouts are ancient pensioners with nowhere to go and no resources left, plus a handful of diehard vatmorons who are eagerly awaiting the vatmoron "liberation" when it finally arrives. France24 has a couple of reporters embedded there and they've been broadcasting the destruction every week, interviewing the people who have stayed.
"At the end of the day," there's nothing left to take. vatmorons have dumped a couple hundred thousand rounds of artillery into the city and there's nothing remaining.
Why are you randomly bringing up civies into the conversation?
How many Ukie soldiers are in Bakhmut? Be specific, cite your sources.
Answer the question you were asked schizo, but anyways
Ukraine says 5k
Russia says 20k
So the real number is right in the middle
>So the real number is right in the middle
I really dislike how people always assume this is the case
if you owe me $10 and I say you owe me $50k you don't suddenly owe me $25k
Ukraine has an incentive to lie but there is a limit on how much they can exaggerate
Russia has an incentive to lie but there is a limit on how much they can exaggerate
So the middle ground is the closest to reality you will ever get, first war ?
I did answer the question, and (You) have nothing.
the topic is
>shitton of Ukrainians trapped in the city
> "Ukrainians trapped"
What do you think is going on here? Why are you trying to move the goal posts?
Bro you understand that when people say a city is encircled and that Ukrainians are trapped they don't mean civilians right?are you high?
>Yes they sacrificed a lot but they can afford to take manpower losses in these proportions and Ukraine can't
Ukraine can conscript a whole country while Russia will cause a civil war if they start conscripting people from Moscow
Here is your unbiased objective professional free thinking independent western media reporting FACTS from reliable Ukrainian sources bro