Are people who carry .22LR for self defense actually smart or moronic?
Pistol rounds don't cause hydrostatic damage anyway and shot placement is what's important, right?
Are people who carry .22LR for self defense actually smart or retarded?
Are people who carry .22LR for self defense actually smart or moronic?
Pistol rounds don't cause hydrostatic damage anyway and shot placement is what's important, right?
Who do you think would be able to achieve the most kills per shots, Tyrone the 15yo porch monkey from Southside Chicago with his giggle switch Glock 40, or Paul Harrel with a Colt Woodsman Match Target?
If a single one of those .22's turns out to be a dud, then Tyrone wins handily
Reliability is the biggest reason not to carry a .22, although "muh shot placement" is a pretty shitty argument, because you're not gonna be making badass headshots when you're getting bumrushed by a junkie, you're gonna be magdumping at center mass
Forgot pic, just wanted to brag about my Woodsman
Nice gun.
I want one pretty bad. It's so kino.
>It's so kino
heh
sarsaparilla star bottle caps hunter looking ass
>not recognizing Kino when you see it
>kINo
i was being facetious but youre being moronic
No, there's a character named Kino who carries a Colt Woodsman
yeah if you're truly so physically weak that you can't even handle a .32 or something, then you better make your .22 ccw a revolver so you can just squeeze again and keep going past the dud
>my totem white person vs. the black stereotype in my head, who wins?
Joke cut a lil deep there didnt it jamal
The former is going to get his gun out first obviously so yeah…
Shot placement is absolutely most important. But if your gun malfs because of unreliable rimfire primers you can't get a shot off, making the whole point moot.
how old is this belief? do even well known manufacturers like CCI still make unreliable ammo?
It's inherent in the design. The "good" manufacturers have got the failure rate down to like 1 in 200 (they claim one in 500, and CCI claims one in 2500, which is just ridiculous horseshit)
I shoot CCI nearly exclusively in my 22s and I'd say I have 2-3 failures to fire on average per 100 rounds. One or maybe two per box of 50. And that seems consistent regardless of which gun I'm shooting (10/22, S&W 617, Ruger MkIV, Henry levergat). I've had better results from fancy match ammo like Eley Tenex but it's still not perfect. On the other hand it's maybe once every few years I encounter a dud centerfire round and I shoot a LOT including handloads and surp. I've had hangfires and erratic velocity from old surp ammo but the dud rate is one out of many many thousands.
i would clean your gun's firing pin channel or chamber edge or something because that is pretty bad. i pretty much only buy cci as well and i would expect maybe 1 primer failure out of a few boxes of 100 rounds and i don't think i've had a single primer failure out of my hp-22 in 500 rounds
the issue is usually user error
22 is a tiny cartridge with a surprisingly wide range of loadings, bullet shapes, ammo quality, and firearms chambered in the round. my cp-33 does not reliably feed bullets below a certain overall length so most hollow points jam up, and that shit is not something they tell you in the manual. the guns that fire 22 are cheap and frequently purchased by people without much firearms experience so there are tons of people who only ever go to cabela's and buy the cheapest package of bulk 22 ammo and have poor experiences with finnicky guns.
then there's the people with a guns like a 10/22 with a rotary mag, basically incapable of jamming even when using dogshit ammo like Remington golden bullet, and telling some poor guy who bought a 22 uzi for $250 that its the best bullet because he buys it. crab in pot.
I now shoot CCI exclusively, mostly their Standard Velocity stuff, but also Velocitor, Quiet-22 and their shotshell. I bought a bunch from Walmart and then the CCI website a few years ago. I've fired about 1000rds of CCI in the past three years, including two boxes of .22 shotshells my neighbor left outside for three seasons. I dried out the shotshells for a few days by my woodstove.
I haven't had a single failure to fire. In all weather conditions and temps, not one.
I also haven't had a single failure to fire with 200rds Browning BPS, nor with 250rds Winchester 42gr Subsonic (no longer made). I pick up primer rim-dented, discarded .22 off the ground at the range, dry them out, and am able to fire about 9 out of every 10 of these. Most of what I pick up off the ground is Remington.
I believe the CCI numbers from my own recent experience. Years ago when the family would shoot a 500rd brick almost every Sunday in the summer I remember having f2f's very rarely with Winchester Super-X and random Remington .22 ammo. I think most of the .22 f2f's are because of worn or dirty firing pins in people's guns, not the ammo.
I wouldn't carry .22 by choice for defense because it sucks for that, not because primer ignition in modern .22 rimfire ammo is inherently unreliable because that's not true.
You got lucky, come back when you shoot 2,500 rounds a year or more, 1,000 rounds over 3 years ain’t shit, a third of that gets shot in one session by me.
Well look at mister moneybags here fellas!
Sometimes the primer compound isn’t spread and I’ve had good CCI and Federal take 4-5 strikes at different places on the rim and no bang.
>Sometimes the primer compound isn’t spread
How is this even a problem in the year 2024? We have x-rays and computers, you can automatically check every round with x-ray on the manufacturing line.
>you can automatically check every round with x-ray on the manufacturing line.
adding this would add mutliple cents per round
It really depends on the gun and ammo. My Keltec P17 used to be really reliable, and would chow through Federal Punch without a flaw. I carried it because I could shoot a 2.07 second cold Bill Drill with it and I figured that being able to shoot that well was more important than caliber. Then the gun started being shitty and malfunctioning, but the point still stands about shootability vs. projectile size.
the reality is that a conceal carry gun is more about making you feel safe because almost nobody ever has to shoot them. if a 22lr makes you feel safe, then it's good enough.
that being said I still won't recommend it, unless that's literally all you have.
for civilians any caliber is good enough. i have yet to see a defensive shooting where a different caliber would have actually mattered. the vast majority of civilian defense encounters dont even need to fire the gun and in 99.9999999999% of those instances where they need to shoot the criminals run for their lives they dont statically engage in a back and forth gun battle
>i have yet to see a defensive shooting where a different caliber would have actually mattered
How many defensive shootings have you actually seen though?
Even if you've watched literally every defensive shooting video on the Internet you still can't draw any definitive conclusions. Only a small subset of defensive shootings are caught on camera and only a small subset of those are released online. They're worth examining, sure, but you have to bear in mind the data is potentially very biased.
thats a good point. i dont know how many in total but at least 100 or so
>hydrostatic damage
Doesn't exist, good bait.
I wonder if you could make rimfire more reliable by using multiple firing pins. Seems like most problems are either primer related or blowback action related.
It doesn’t matter, I’ve struck rounds 3-4 times in different areas and had them still be duds.
You clearly don’t shoot very much then, it’s a problem endemic to all .22lr ammo, including CCI and Federal.
>I wonder if you could make rimfire more reliable by using multiple firing pins
That was common back in the day. The original Henry rifle from 1860 had dual firing pins.
It can help, but it doesn't always work. If the primer compound is inconsistent then a double firing pin might happen to hit a good section of primer...but it might not. Or if the primer compound is missing entirely or fell out it won't do any good either.
Just have a whole ring of like 9 firing pins. If there's primer in there somewhere, it will find it.
Even .22 needs case support, you can't replace the entire breech face with firing pins.
Okay, make the entire bolt face a firing pin. Open bolt .22 LR, massive spring that you have to wiener with a windlass like a crossbow, 0 clearance between the bolt face and the lip that holds the rim. Frick you I paid for this cartridge, I'm damn well going to make it shoot.
I've NEVER has a failure with CCI ammo. Not one.
I value first shot placement with the first shot actually hitting the target and then also the second shot and up to the 5th shot and 10th shot.
With with a Ruger 10/22 model a practiced shooter can point shoot a human torso without leaving sight picture due to ZERO recoil. The same applies to 22 pistols. Everything is scenario dependent however and the immature conversation in these threads is just.... ughhh.
Grow the frick up
op here. i'm actually impressed with how mature most of the replies have been. paul harrell made an over an hour long video of shooting .22 LR ammo and even CCI had a dud. so you got lucky. but others (who carry .22 LR for self defense) realistically might not be. i think you're the one that should grow up.
i only carry ..22 Short for self defense, .22LR is overkill
.22 Short won’t go through a backyard wooden fence, I wouldn’t trust it for anything more than gallery shooting and maybe executing a rat caught in a trap.
according to my diaries I have shot over 5000 rounds of 22lr and I have had 2 duds. Both were Norma ammo from the same box, only couple of shots apart
if I were to carry .22lr or some other rimfire caliber or use one for home defense, it would have to be a double action revolver.
it really(really) doesn't fricking matter. 99% of gun owners be like
> this is my truck gun
> this is my home defense gun
> this is my bedside gun
> this is my bathroom gun
> this is my critter gun
instead of
> I just have guns
most, and I mean 99.9% will never use them in a defense situation, yet they talk shit about someone's choice. a perfect example is 9mm gays who constantly talk shit about .380. realistically, .380 is just a 9mm going a bit slower. it's not like 9mm already has iffy "effectiveness" when you look at all the videos and reports of people needing a magdump to go down. now... 9mm gays will say "muh shot placement" when that cope is quite literally also compatible with the .380 shittalk they spew.
tldr, shot placement not round choice. unless you're up against a morbidly obese person who effectively has natural armor.
Wow, another post that had nothing to do with the thread, but directly responded to the OP.
>it really(really) doesn't fricking matter. 99% of gun owners be like
>> this is my truck gun
>> this is my home defense gun
>> this is my bedside gun
>> this is my bathroom gun
>> this is my critter gun
>instead of
>> I just have guns
That's because people just want to buy more guns, but have to rationalize to themselves why they want to spend money. It's dumb, but I guess that's just human psychology.
The purpose of hollowpoints is to increase the diameter of the wound channel in order to cause more hemorrhaging.
most shot placement gays are trying to argue for 9mm over 45 acp, even though it doesnt even matter since the ft/lbs of energy shot by 9mm and 45 acp are so similar that theyre almost the exact same in power
the cope argument of shot placement should be readjusted for arguing with 10mm kings
Mega moronic unless you're trying to defend yourself from the Easter bunny. The whole "shot placement" thing has always been cope, since real life doesn't work like V.A.T.S. from Fallout where you'll be able to get pinpoint hits on vital organs in the heat of the moment. People are trained to shoot at the thorax because it's the widest section of the human male anatomy, and it contains vital organs like the heart and lungs. The caveat are that those vital organs are protected by the breastbone and ribcage, and puny little .22lr bullets aren't going to do a good job of penetrating past those. Penetration is actually what's most important in a defensive handgun cartridge, because you want a bullet with enough weight and speed to crush those bones without getting deflected. This is especially true if the target has his arms raised in front of his chest in an attacking position, i.e. he's holding a knife or a gun. The reason why .22lr causes so many deaths is because of unfortunate accidents (Little Timmy headshotting himself) and gang members shooting each other, but then not seeking medical attention until the wounds get infected and go septic.
hmm. are hollow points a meme? should people be carrying only FMJs/EHPs?
>shot placement is what's important, right?
Not entirely.
Bigger bullets punch bigger holes and bigger holes bleed faster. Bigger holes are also more likely to involve vital organs, a hit that just clips a vertebrae with a .22 might've severed bitten into the spinal cord if you'd fired .380 or 9mm.
Larger rounds are going to inflict more worse injuries if your shot lands outside a vital area too, hit someone in the pelvis or the humerus or the femur with 9mm and they're less likely to be able to shoot you back than if hit them with .22.
Penetration matter as well. Maybe the round has to travel through their wrist or a windshield on the way to their heart and you don't want it being deflected.
Sure, .22 will probably be enough for most people in most scenarios but if you're able to carry a more effective round then you might as well.
The advantages of .22 don't outweighs the disadvantages imo.
22LR is an inherently unreliable cartridge for use in autoloaders.
You could maybe make an excuse for carrying it in a revolver. But that's about it.
the only difference is the magazine and that is a valid criticism of rimfire magazines but kel tec makes a 33 round quad stack so it's clearly not an actual limitation. it's just people making excuses
>the only difference is the magazine
No, it's being able to skip past the inevitable bad primer.
the issue with unreliability in the cp33 is the feed angle and how ammo interacts with the magazine. if you have primer issues with rimfire then you need to buy better ammo and if you are then your gun needs maintenance or it's bad. but still, if you're experiencing more than 1 in 300 or so then the issue is likely not the ammunition.
i just did some research and it looks like the people who have done multi-thousand-round tests seem to have anywhere between 1 failure in 500 to 1 failure in 2000. that's a lot more than i was willing to give rimfire. of course, guns jam more than that because the issue with rimfire is not the primer itself its the rimmed cartridge and the generally ridiculous tolerance stacking that happens with inexpensive ammo and guns
I agree. The 22lr is a great round for a snub nosed revolver and that's about it when it comes to concealed carry. With something like a s&w 43c, you get an additional 3 rounds over a 642 and shave off a few ounces as well because of the aluminum cylinder on the rimfire models. Federal punch solids provide adequate penetration when it comes to the fbi standards, although I have my suspicions that it might not fare well against bone.
the main disadvantage for 22 self loaders is that the magazines are huge. but you can fit 8 rounds in a j frame, so it's actually an advantage for revolvers. then the only issue you have is primer reliability, which is not a critical failure in a revolver.
most pocket pistols are 6 shots, you can find 8 rounders but these guns are all legally curios and relics, it's fricking ridiculous. if someone made a modern 25 with a double stack magazine and proper safeties then this wouldn't even be a question but as it stands there's a reason people go with 22 for pocket carry a century after people came up with better options, especially since the premium self defense ammo is still cheaper than 25 acp.
>f someone made a modern 25 with a double stack magazine and proper safeties then this wouldn't even be a question
I'd fricking love a modern DA/SA in .25 like that.
Okay heres the thing: we just saw how an 85 year old grandma can take 4 rounds of 9MM, two of them in critical areas (one chest, one abdomen), and then lay there for 10 hours and STILL survive
So knowing that, along with many other examples of people taking entire mags worth of 9MM, why neuter yourself and risk it using an even less powerful cartridge?
Yeah, shot placement. I know. But if you were about to get shot directly in the heart, would you rather get shot with a 22 or 10MM? Personally, ill take 22. Yeah, its a heart shot, but still far less tissue disruption and energy imparted into the heart from the 22.
So assuming i can aim just as well with a 22 as i can a 9/40/10/whatever, why would i not go with one of those?
125 grain hornady critical defense out of a snubnose will go like 1100 fps. that's basically the same as standard 115 grain 9mm out of a 4 inch barrel. hornady even sells pink colored reduced power 'lady loads' too. i think that situation probably boiled down to hollow points because that grandma was probably packing a 10 year old box of self defense ammo and tyrone had a loose ziplock bag full of unsorted ball ammo
I would say that 9mm is the minimum caliber required for hollow point expansion and performance. Anything below 9mm I just use fmj or wadcutters.
Paul said its only ok if you know where to shoot ie the face as many times as possible.
Because I doubt the type of person to carry .22 for self defense could make that shot, I'd suggest a .44 if you're only going to make one shot, make it count!
I carry a .44 because they dont make a .45
I'll make yer dick into a pretzel
With your mouth?
My granny carries a .22 now that her hands are old and crippled. She always told me she aims for the dick and id laugh and call her a nutty old b***h. Some dude followed her home from the store years ago and caught a 12 gauge slug to the dick. I dont make fun of her any more
i shot my 12g today for the first time, got to try hollowpoint slugs. have never felt more american in my life
Depends in what and who. I know an old lady who stops by daily at my work who needs assistance opening a door cause of her arthritis but she carries a 21A. Sometimes I catch her at the range every now and again and she can hit a head sized target reliably at 10 yards with it. If its what you got, its what you use.
Of you shoot someone they will die
My most carried gun by far is my S&W 43c. It has a clipgrip and I wear it AIWB with a really stretchy nylon belt. The belt wouldn't hold a normal gun but it works with the snub because it's so light and the cylinder width keeps it snug. It's really just a comfort and risk assessment thing. I have a g17 to carry when I feel the need but most days I'm fine with the little 22. I am looking to get a .32 j frame here soon but I'll still always love that little 22 snub as my minimalist option.
>hydrostatic damage
Uh oh, someone learned about guns from YouTube 10 minutes ago.
.22lr needs you to be very careful loading the magazines because rimlock will cause a stoppage. Other than reliability, gun scary and put lots of holes in bad person.
.22 too small
.32 is fine
Tomchad
(Frick working on this gun though. The recoil springs are a b***h to get in, the grip chipped a little during reassembly)
You can’t even tell a S&W 22 is a 22. It’s all just a loud percussion of a gunshot. The retired cop from that infamous stakeout biography of gun battles, he wrote he carried a 22lr double action revolver
9mm has everything 22lr has to offer but better, no reason not to use it
>cheap
>...
>yea thats really all 22lr has going for it
>Pistol rounds don't cause hydrostatic damage anyway
>he thinks everyone carries the same weak ammo he does
i lol'd
I carry a 22lr. A few actually. I don't see many problems, but when I do they are spooky.
I carry a berretta bobcat, and an LCP 2. Sometimes a p17 if I'm feeling it.
Clean your guns once a month, cause my barretta gets picky without any oil and filled with pocket lint.
Other than that, I've had an entire box of federal punch that had no primer in it.
Only 2 problems I've had.
Are you a woman or an arthritic
The issue I have with .22 lr and .22 magnum is they are rimfire which means less reliable. A double action revolver may not have as much of an issue since you can just pull the trigger again to resolve it but it is still an issue. A centerfire .22 magnum for revolvers would be great.
It all depends on how bad the situation is for concealment. If your option is only the small shitty pocket pistols, yeah, .22LR might be your entry option until you can afford to learn some other weird deep concealment for work in a hospital or while wearing a tucked in shirt.
Rimfire is known to have problems, no matter how good the rounds are. Just nature of the cartridge type, not just the firearm. You better be good at clearing a malf in the handgun, or switch to a smol wheelgat.
Stingers worked great.
Hollow point is best in anything in high or hyper velocity. Not sure why anyone would want quiets or normal velocity unless they plan on carrying a suppressor.
.22 is only moronic if you have a center fire option you can hit shit with.
Some people can only hit shit with their .22s, and if they can blap someone in the face/neck/heart with 10+ rounds while moving....shit, put your life on the rimfire.
At the end of the day, its none of our problems.
Your Target is to cause enough damage to render your target incapable of doing harm to you. So yes .22 is a very good Option if you dont Plan to kill your target
Nothing better than getting sued by the guy who tried to rob your house because you maimed him instead of killing him
If you want to go nonlethal, use pepper spray or a tazer or some shit, not a gun, unless you want some lawyer convincing the jury you're a sadistic psycho who gets off on torturing potential astronauts by shooting them with "high velocity bullets designed to expand amd fragment on impact"
Carry a .38 snub instead, dipshit, there's like an ounce difference
Hell, this derringer is a .32. There is zero reason to not carry a centerfire instead.
>Derringer and a glass of cum
Name a more iconic duo.
You and pretending that your Heritage Rough Rider is just as good as a real pistol
Not sure who you think you're talking to, I carry a star bm.
>carries a Star Bowel Movement
Congrats, you're carrying a gun even less reliable than a .22 lmfao
Enjoy that extractor, firing pin, and barrel link made out of tin foil
Nonlethal is a meme. A baseball bat wielded by a normal man is a jillion times better than spray.
>Defendant, you claim self defense, so would you please explain to the jury why the victim had 217 bullet wounds?
first, and most important, ANY gun is better than no gun. if you're only comfortable carrying a 22 snubnose, carry that over nothing for sure
second, yes, hydrostatic damage is not applicable to handgun rounds (at least up to an including a 44magnum).
but penetration is.
iirc from luckygunner testing, high load .38s are the smallest expanding ammo that can offer sufficient penetration ("sufficient" based on the fbi standard)
and i remember an anon in a past thread arguing that .32acp can also offer sufficient penetration, assuming you use fmj ammo
and the last important point is reliability, as other anons have already pointed out. .22 is not very reliable.
so, yea, if you want to carry the minimal viable caliber, either high load .38 hollowpoint or .32acp fmj
.22 is still better than nothing, but i wouldn't trust it to fire all the time, nor to penetrate deeply enough when it does fire.
If you're only capable of carrying .22 snub, you're too crippled to be out in public and need a home aid.
im not talking about physical capability, anon
what if you're a woman(male or female) and are wearing a dress and carrying a small purse? you can't fit a 1911 or a glock in the purse, but a 22 snub will fit
what if you're a man who has to wear a suit in his day to day? what if you want and/or are expected to take of your suit jacket , so a shoulder holster becomes a non-starter?
look, im not trying to start a fight here, im just saying that ANY gun, even a 22 snub is better than no gun.
Phlster enigma, black arch protos, vedder rapidtuck, mastermind belt, there are A LOT of options for carrying your normal ccw in business wear/tucked in shirts. You trying to make a point with this just proves your lack of education and experience when it comes to conceal carrying different sizes of handguns
It's better than nothing, and if you're old or weak or a woman, it may be the best option for you.
rimfire outside a revolver is iffy
a 5.7 the size of a G43/sig 365/ppk would be max carry min maxing
>piss-weak
>inherently unreliable by design
No thanks, I'll just use a different round.
Demonstrated Concepts makes me want to get a .22 LCR full of Federal Punch
>he actually paid for a mallninja karate class
Come on man
>hydrostatic damage
hydrostatic means a fluid at rest. none of you are smart enough to evaluate cartridges based on ballistics
your best bet is listening to a youtube troony or looking at ballstic gel tests
Hydrostatic refers to pressure within a fluid that isn't moving. The idea with regard to terminal ballistics is that the pressure wave created by the projectile impact can propagate through the body and cause damage to organs that weren't touched by the projectile itself.
OK, so let me get this straight - "experts" b***h about their dirty handguns not reliably shooting budget .22LR ammo, while Tyrone is typically going to send all 578 shots from his problem solva into the welfare apartment next door instead of LaSquevia's new BF.
Why in Gods green earth are you there in the first place?
Just walk away.
They're stupid but mainly because 22lr is such ancient technology it's almost impossible to make as reliable as cheap 9mm, cci fed punch whatever it's the truth plus rimlock is a pitch and limits your mags 5 ever unless you do some weirdo shit that's also gonna make your mag unreliable now. It just poor gay cope.
Many barrel volley gun in 22lr should do the trick, the only question is how many barrels you can fit
I want that .22 volley gun knife from that Kino's Journey episode