Are "operators" just a meme?
People act like they're some elite supersoldiers. All the training in the world isn't going to stop you from getting killed by some 12 year old with an AK47 who hid in the wall with a peephole waiting for you to come in and spray you down
I understand that they're the best teams for doing secret missions or hostage rescue though, of course. It seems like most of their power just comes from teamwork.
The whole operator thing just seems so overblown. Like if you put one SAS or Delta operator versus one random taliban member with an AK inside a house, there's a pretty decent (20-30%) chance the operator is going to die just by getting unlucky. So it seems like total bullshit the stories I've heard of them running into buildings solo and taking out 10 terrorists or some shit
>All the training in the world isn't going to stop you from getting killed by some 12 year old with an AK47 who hid in the wall with a peephole waiting for you to come in and spray you down
>Like if you put one SAS or Delta operator versus one random taliban member with an AK inside a house, there's a pretty decent (20-30%) chance the operator is going to die just by getting unlucky
ok moron, did you really have to make an entire thread to get laughed at?
>ok moron, did you really have to make an entire thread to get laughed at?
Yes, he does. He doesn't understand the purpose of specialized training. I can guarantee that he is the same kind of jackass that says that everyone should farm their own land. His mind simply isn't capable of understanding how specialized training helps an organization (military, society, etc.).
Everyone should farm there own land and did in the 1800’s
morons.
>I understand that they're the best teams for doing secret missions or hostage rescue though, of course. It seems like most of their power just comes from teamwork.
I can agree with that
>It seems like most of their power just comes from teamwork.
thats how militaries work moron
That line convinced me this post is bait
damn this board really is filled with midwits that think they're smart
(You) are the midwit actually
>It seems like most of their power just comes from teamwork.
Children's cartoons from the 1980s had this figured out
Dont the navy seals have an expected casualty rate of about 50% against untrained opponents if they're trying to kill everybody in a building by going into the building themselves?
>Dont the navy seals have an expected casualty rate of about 50%
yes. this is why we lost 57,428 Navy SEALS during the GWOT. RIP heroes
And the only reason it isn't higher is because a lot of the militias in Iraq were trained by Iran. If they'd been untrained then the total SEAL casualties would have been off the charts.
Probably, which is why "modern problems require modern solutions" and the west just drops a precision guided munition(s) on said building instead and send the rangers or some shit to clean up the mess
>50%
On average attackers take at minimum three to one casualties
Special forces are good at what they do.
But at same time average grunts who know what they are doing might easily overpower them.
There is a good reason why trope of war time special forces recruit from basic grunts exists.
You don't realize just how bad at combat an untrained 60-IQ arab can be.
But yes, there are diminishing returns - even basic infantry training and tactics gets you most of the 10:1 advantage we see with regular US marines vs totally untrained militiamen.
You underestimate how effective not having enough intelligence to have the sense to be afraid of something you should be afraid of.
Never underestimate beginner's luck. You can take pot shots at IQ all you want, but the reality is that a beginner (or in this case, someone who is untrained) will make decisions and act in ways that totally contradict the meta and sometimes this unwittingly works to their advantage a great deal. Those who are skilled and experienced have developed a great bank of rules, logic and systems in their own mind and while that serves its purpose, it can prevent them from thinking like someone without any of that. This is where you get newbies doin' crazy shit nobody expects and sometimes they pull it off.
inshallah
The last twenty years have massively distorted people's idea of warfare and it's going to take a while to unlearn all the bad habits. It's like those "veterans" who went to Ukraine in the first few months and then immediately ran away after coming under artillery fire for the first time in their lives.
This. The world has forgotten what industrialized total War looks like.
industrialized war sucks for the war wagers, though. it's a last resort and it will probably leave both sides broke with nothing to show for
Yeah, that’s why Eisenhower had a few choice words for American war profiteers. moron.
You know those were just fakes from RU media right. Like a psyop designed to discourage exactly that?
You can watch interviews with people who were there and they talk about some people handling it better than others. It’s not some schizo idea that people who are used to instant air support and medevac decide they don’t like getting shelled for weeks without reprieve.
Yup. I am so curious how the US dod is preparing for drone warfare, we don't seem to get much training or assistance therenv0s
Honestly the US military doesn’t have much to worry about just because the air force + intel is so busted. New laser weapons coming in the next couple years plus electronic warfare will be enough for the drone swarms.
It's also not really a commentary on them since it's not their country at war. If you're a professional used to getting paid well, fighting for your country, and having all the good tools, and now you're working with amateurs for somebody else's country and getting pennies to work with crap, no amount of adrenaline junkie motivation is going to keep you around for long. The voice of sanity is going to take over.
The turnover rate for the international units is actually pretty low. There are lots of people who are willing to stay.
I watched the interviews lying homosexual
MACVSOG was incredibly based but they kind of illustrate the exact problem
>send in like a dozen guys to snoop around and try to take prisoners or whatever
>waste a ridiculous amount of air assets trying to save them when they inevitably take casualties and get pinned down
>accomplish basically nothing of note while risking the lives of highly trained professionals and aircraft
Even when they did get valuable intelligence it wasn’t acted upon most of the time, like when they gave warning that the NVA had tanks and the brass didn’t believe them. I’d highly recommend listening to or reading the various stories SOG members have put out, a lot of the missions were disasters and by the end of the war they were lousy with spies. Unfortunately for the future of kino, drones are better than special forces.
To be entirely fair, the current conflict isn't really representative of a proper peer on peer war; special operations forces suffer a lot in the utterly transparent environment in Ukraine, as there's very little cover and both sides are using satellites and drone recon with impunity. In a proper war involving belligerents that aren't using weapon systems from 60's, there would be a much greater emphasis on EWAR/ELINT and ASAT, making the theatre much more opaque, which would increase the importance of traditional spec ops roles, such as intel gathering, sabotage and reconnaissance.
Lol. Lmao. No homie. Transparent battlefields is how it be now. Learn to fight when the enemy can see everything you do 24/7 or quit the field.
Do you have a single argument aside from saying "lolno"?
Real life homie. It's ok. You will learn eventually.
How much real life modern peer to peer conflict have you experienced?
If you get KIA while operating, you weren't an operator. Operating operationally means not getting killed, simple as.
Training doesn't stop you from dying, your armor does. It does prevent you from harm and let's you cause it to others.
>It seems like most of their power just comes from teamwork.
You don't say
Women be tripping so I frick hookers
A lot of it is going to be in the preparation before hand. Someone with almost no training doesn't really know what to prepare for or what to do besides get their equipment together. Its much more about not getting yourself into bad situations in the first place, and to take advantage of every capability you have.
Look at it as any other profession. Take carpentry. A carpenter can come up with detail plans on how to build a table. They'll make sure to keep wastage down, and the strength will be good. An untrained person can build a table, but it will have unintended cuts, wasted material, some cases of shoddy or terrible worksmanship, and likely had very little planning. It'll probably take them far longer to do it, too. They'll get you a table, but after a lot more struggle, and it might fall apart if they fricked up badly.
Everyone can use a hammer, but they might waste a lot of nails when just a few would have done. They might put nails in the wrong place, hurt themselves doing so, or outright fail to put the nails in the right place. The analogy to using weapons and tactics is similar.
So in your example the extra training gives them, as you estimate, an 80% advantage in killing another human
Isn’t that exactly the opposite of your premise? They really are just that much better trained and that much more effective
>All the training in the world isn't going to stop you from getting killed by some 12 year old with an AK47
You're literally no different than those "Why train or buy gear? Some bubba with a bolty is gonna pop you post-shtf and take your stuff!" homosexuals.
Your scratch math doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. If this were even close to the case, random grunts in the GWOT would've almost all died after clearing literally hundreds of houses.
This is the perfect post to trigger /k/ and it's great. No one here wants to admit that the gear and training is only a fraction of the battle.
What separates those operators from literally everyone else is they have unrestricted access to information. If they want to know how many studs are in a specific wall from a building made in 1891 they can get that knowledge in an instant. All the training in the world isn't going to save you from going into a room blind and getting mag dumped by the guy in the crawl space.
>kick in door
>tali lets off at the door
>first guy into the room dies
>second guy gets shot
>third guy kills the tali
This happened all the fricking time. You know that right? No one is kicking in doors by themselves. Yes they win in the end, but that doesn't remove the fact they had causalities doing it.
>This is the perfect post to trigger /k/ and it's great.
>post doesnt understand the purpose of special forces in the slightest
its bait of the highest caliber
>This happened all the fricking time. You know that right? No one is kicking in doors by themselves. Yes they win in the end, but that doesn't remove the fact they had causalities doing it.
No dumbass, it didn't happen "all the time", or literally every single Infantry company that conducted MOUT would be combat ineffective throughout the entire GWOT. How are you this illiterate, lmfao. You would have had well over 20k deaths throughout the entirety of the GWOT if this moronic "statistic" were even remotely true. I mean ffs, every single unit in Fallujah would be gone. Again, this doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny.
Artillery+Air power, and most of the time no one in the mud hut is actually armed. Door kicking armed goons like counter strike 2 doesn't happen that often.
GoTW artillery support was actually pretty shit, hence the over-reliance on infantry to engage targets.
>air power
>most of the time no one in the mud hut is actually armed
lmao
It is impossible for GWOT infantry boomers to tell you about what we did because you're incapable of believing it.
That's the tagline kids. Join the army, become a zogbot, do shit civilians think is made up main character syndrome cinematic propaganda on a weekly basis over and over for years, retire, and get butthurt occasionally because toning it down 10x won't stop neverserveds from thinking you're exaggerating.
why cant Israel do it then
They're incompetent middle easterners.
>mfw coworkers think im a liar because i said i used a SAW in cqbbqops
I fully believe you killed a shit ton of people, no exaggeration. I just think you're lying by omission, by not mentioning that many of them were unarmed civilians that you killed, either on orders or just for the hell of it. I think you're also coping by lying to yourself, which is why so many of you have a nice day out of shame and guilt
SF are specialised infantry who are better trained and conditioned to operate under extremes of pressure and fatigue. At the end of the day they're still human beans. You wouldn't deploy them on the line.
> I understand that they're the best teams for doing secret missions or hostage rescue though, of course. It seems like most of their power just comes from teamwork.
No shit, Sherlock. Obviously no amount of training can make anyone a near-immortal superman, but training and the extremely efficient teamwork that comes from it makes all the difference for difficult ops that would end up in a clownshow with regular Joes.
Regular infantrymen are hammers and special forces are scalpels, and both are shitty if you try to use them in a wrong job. Try some hostage rescue or difficult recon job with regular Joe, and you can already start writing letters to their relatives, and while SF operators obviously aren’t worse than regular infantrymen in regular frontline combat, it would be idiotic to waste their expensive and hard-to-acquire skillset in a function where they are just marginally better than regular Joe.
best plan is simultaneous breach initiated by explosive at 02
they are trying to keep from shitting their pants, firing the ak lying right next to them isnt even a thought
if you think they are awake, send the dog in first
Considering how often they fail, frick up, and get killed, yes.
>Are "operators" just a meme?
Look at the amount of damage that the CIDGs and MACVSOG units cause to the Vietcong and tell me if they're just a meme. There's the answer to your question.
Then why train anyone at all? Such a ridiculous outlook. Life is fragile, we are like blades of grass. Doesn't mean that training does not matter. Some tasks are complex and difficult, and war involves deep preparation to put odds in your favor.
A godless communist may be content to simply give a rifle to farmer and send them to war, but someone who values human life would ensure their men are as prepared as possible.
>mfw /k/ is so shit that even the forced wartime propaganda shitposts are this fricking gay
This place sucks.
I think it's because a random 12 year old is better at what you do for a living than you are, so you assume this is true across the board.
In reality getting a militia to engage with a professional army in any conventional battle is moronic. Militia will lose in 99.999% cases. The way for them to win is to larp as wagies and occasionally delete a presence patrol with a propane tank bomb and shit like that. Wear them the frick down over years.
Besides you are used to your third world goatfrick shithole, to you this is home, to them it's hell.
Haha no. Prior to WWII, the vast majority of professional soldiers, let alone militia accounted for less then 10% of all combat-related deaths using small arms. The difference between a professional and a nobody with a gun is exacerbated when you compare how many bodies a trained rifleman is capable of dropping versus say, your average school shooter armed with the same weapon.
It's militia that have an inflated opinion of themselves.
The 'proper' use of special operational forces or 'commandos' to be more general i.e. infantry that are really good at being infantry; are a high risk, high reward asset. The whole notion of elite operators going zero dark thirty on some evil terrorists is a thing that can only exist in an incredibly niche type of situation where the bad guys are caught completely surprised and the entire battlespace can be shaped at will be the force using SOF. - Shooting 14 year old's while they sleep is a very different thing than conducting a raid on an enemy brigade support area or on some high value target such as enemy air defense in an environment that makes reinforcement and even support via things like artillery impossible. In that sort of environment, you either accomplish the mission or you die and don't come back. Hence why militaries will typically see a dwindling of said highly trained SOF units as a war progresses and will usually fall upon line infantry units that have proven themselves to take on the tasks. With said tasks usually being more geared towards more immediate objectives such as conducting a WWI shock troop esque infiltration and raid on an enemy position to create a favorable condition that can be exploited by follow on forces, or just general shenanigans via recon/combat patrols throughout no mans land - Which if you're fighting a peer to peer fight with both sides having a decent amount of ISR assets, will typically be very large between the two apposing armies.
tl;dr SOF super duper operators die the same as a 16 year old conscript and in many situations, at least near or on the frontlines, have about the same use and effectiveness as said conscript for quintuple the cost. - Unless the two apposing armies are sending out their champions to fight one another in a chivalric duel, then the only way to win is the same as it's always been: more blood for the blood god, more skulls for the skull throne.
To add on to this, you have to understand that a lot of military tactics and doctrine are not shaped by what can be done, but rather by what you're allowed to do. This is to say that politics plays a huge role, and when it comes to the west and especially the US, high attrition rates are an absolute no go. Hence the over reliance on technology and meme forces, which both reinforce the notion that a war (peaceful humanitarian cultural exchange program that is definitely not a war) can be fought not only humanely, but also swiftly. With hardly any bloodshed in general, particularly towards our own forces and to the innocent, definitely not involved and can just be treated the same as infrastructure and aren't players in the game, civilians. - This is all of course a giant fricking lie, but remind me again when was the last time the US officially, legally fought in a war? Oh, that's right, WWII. I wonder why that is. Guess it's kind of hard to trick the American public into sending tens to hundreds of thousands of young men to die overseas for no real reason. So no, it's not a 'war', it's a humanitarian effort to establish peace (and democracy).
>Guess it's kind of hard to trick the American public into sending tens to hundreds of thousands of young men to die overseas for no real reason
He says, after literally watching this very thing happen for his entire life up until only a couple years ago
There's a difference between sending 10,000 men and seeing 10,000 men come home in boxes/month.
Reminds me of the British Commando Raids in WW2. Without the element of surprise, they turned into essentially suicide missions
This
>Sending a crack team of skiers to conduct a surprise sabotage mission on a research facility filled with mostly scientists good
>Sending a crack team of paratroopers to descend from large, visible parachutes during the day at 9.8 m/s onto heavily fortified enemy chokepoints not particularly far from the front bad
>It seems like most of their power just comes from teamwork.
No shit Sherlock, it's as if every single fighting force be it mobik waves to Seal team 6 rely on teamwork
ordinary people can do some wild shit when they work together. The idea behind these spec ops fellas is they take above average types and get them into that teamwork.
OP is certainly correct to an extent. Firearms have equalized combat between different parties by an extreme amount. A child soldier with an AK has a way better chance of killing an "operator" than one in the middle ages would have at killing a knight.
the effectiveness of special forces comes from their ability to be at the worst place at the worst time, from the enemy's perspective. They do get better training and equipment, due to being smaller in size. But their effectiveness isn't because they're marginally better at CQB, but because while the grunts are doing CQB on the front lines where the enemy is dug in and expecting a fight, the Special Forces guys are doing CQB in some kind of depot, or other rear area, 10 miles behind enemy lines when or where they aren't expecting a fight.
They're a specialty tool that excel in certain environments. Most people have an overinflated idea of what special forces are actually capable of because of TV, movies and vidya, but you're going too far the other direction by pretending they're just a meme force.
>playing against fattie civilians who don't even notice when their buddies are getting magdumped
>still gets killed around 8:10
kind of supporting OP's point.
captcha GAYVG
i wasn't advocating one way or the other, but ok cool.
?t=222
>It seems like most of their power just comes from teamwork.
god OP is the biggest homosexual to walk the fricking earth
Try getting a 12 year old with an AK to train an army of indigenous forces to overthrow a government, or infiltrate harbors, or sabotage logistical lines, or coordinate close air support between 10 aircraft while under enemy fire
>Are "operators" just a meme?
Their not a meme, they are the high brass's attempt to create a quick response force that isn't overly Bureaucratic like the standard military. The fact that our nation relies on them for jobs that the standard military used to be able to do just fine before or during the cold war is proof that we got too many desk jockeys holding the grunts back.
Operation Red Wings is proof of this, we called Devgru Navy Seals to do a simple job and they fricked up, 19 US troops died. The US had to make Operation Red Wings 2 for ordinary marines to accomplish what the Navy Seals failed to do.
Yeah, literally not what happened. SOCOM said that the marines can't use their rotary assets from the 160th SOAR without any SOCOM ground forces so the only ones who volunteered was the SDV team driving mini submarines who neither had the experience nor the training to do recce in rough terrain. The follow on operation Whalers conducted by marines and ANA wasn't a recce mission and involved more than a 100 troops. Hard fact is that your average soldier couldn't do it either, which is why force recon or LRS companies existed in the first place.
Mostly it's tactics. Every time you come at them you'll find a gun already aimed at you and every time you hunker down you'll either get flanked or hit with a flashbang. Sometimes they'll appear out of nowhere like ninjas and get free shots on your dudes or pick off your men one at a time with silenced weapons.
Those “operators” in SAS, Delta Force, etc. only take missions they reasonably think they can win. The other outcome is Black Hawk Down.