On the fancypants brands you are absolutely paying something for the fancy finish. But the guns are a hell of a lot more complicated than it appears from looking outside.
Anyway, to answer your question, break actions have several advantages over other types of shotguns:
-There is no bolt, therefore the gun can be several inches shorter overall for the same barrel length, or you can have longer barrels for the same size gun.
-Two entirely separate lock mechanisms is ultimate reliability. Even if one suffers a catastrophic failure you still have an instant second shot which cannot jam or misfeed.
-You have the ability to load two different types of shells and/or have two different chokes installed at the same time, and you can choose which barrel you fire when. This is useful for hunting when you don't know what game you might encounter. Same when you're shooting doubles in clay sports: you have the wide choke for the short shot and the tighter choke for the longer one and you can choose which you shoot when
-Vastly improved ergonomics
The only disadvantage they have is capacity, and that makes them shitty fighting weapons.
You also have to consider the locks. High end sidelocks take a lot of highly specialized craftsmanship. Whether the trigger pull is actually that much better than with a boxlock to warrant the considerable price increase is up for debate. I personally own both and prefer the sidelock.
sidelocks *can* be done cheaply and still very reliable, with many of the same trigger pull advantages. see BRNO sidelocks. a lot of the specialized highend craftsmanship is because they need to make it perfect and boutique, and they want to follow 130+ years old techniques and designs. It's absolutely worth it if one has the disposable income and wants to own something cool. I'm more inclined to buy used ones for 1/10th of the price sometimes though, and then have it cleaned up and customized by local luxury gunsmiths.
Buying upper middle to high end guns used is the way in my opinion. Bought a nice Ferlach safe queen for a ver nice price last year.
I was also offered a mint Lebau Princess Paola for significantly under 10k. Should have pulled the trigger on that one, couldn’t justify the price at that time though.
Fabarm is Italian, it was simply imported by HK. Germans don't really make a lot of shotguns, it seems to be more of an Italian thing with European weapons.
Hijacking this thread. Are Derya Shotguns any good? The Derya MK12 AS240 looks great and is relatively inexpensive for a semi-auto shotgun. I wanted to buy a Saiga, but that dream shattered with the SMO in the Ukraine
>Are Derya Shotguns any good
Turkshit. I wouldn't buy one. If you can, buy used soviet shotgun.They're alright.
Hijacking this thread. Are Derya Shotguns any good? The Derya MK12 AS240 looks great and is relatively inexpensive for a semi-auto shotgun. I wanted to buy a Saiga, but that dream shattered with the SMO in the Ukraine
Fabarm are italian, they just were imported by HK for a while in the US. And yeah they are good, just don't be dumb like me and don't buy one with a wire stock
Did they ever collaborate or just resell for them?
I'd like to see a German-Italian collab shotgun.
Like when Audi bought Lamborghini and they made the Murciélago.
Used to make some nice interesting shotguns, but the current CZ line is turkish made.
There were some nice/cool shotguns made by Zbrojovka Brno, both the over/under ZH series (ZH302 being particularly interesting for its muzzle brakes) and side by side ZP series guns. I regret not buying a nice Brno ZP a couple years ago, it was a shorty, almost a coach gun, had Poldi Elektro steel barrels and really nice finnish. It wasn't a fancy gun, but it felt really well made.
Picrel is the ZH302, funnily enough they were used by police SWAT teams and riot control units in the 1980s and into the 1990s, until they got replaced with more "tactical" shotguns.
In the immediate post-war years CZ made an Auto-5 knockoff called the 241. I like mine but finding the correct sized 16 gauge shells is a pain.
Unfortunately these shotguns ceased production when the commies took power.
In the immediate post-war years CZ made an Auto-5 knockoff called the 241. I like mine but finding the correct sized 16 gauge shells is a pain.
Unfortunately these shotguns ceased production when the commies took power.
The 241 took the long recoil action with friction ring from the Auto 5, but they just felt compelled to do things different, so instead of tube mag it has 2 round integral magazine in the bottom of the receiver with the rounds stacked one behind another towards the rear. Only made in 1947 - 1949 and some of them were made with aluminum receivers, machined from surplus German aircraft propellers from nearby army depot. Some people claim that early ones also used bored out surplus MG-131 aircraft machine gun barrels. They have thin wooden panels on the side that you can remove and then watch the loading cycle as if it was a cutaway gun:
What does it take, 16/67,5?
I vaguelly remember they're 16/65 (they also made them in 12 and 20 gauge), but they're reportedly picky with ammo and generally don't like modern plastic-hulled star-crimped stuff, being designed for roll-crimped paper shells. They can be tweaked for more modern ammo, though.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
That’s really cool man, I’ve never heard of that specific variation, thanks for sharing! Long recoil action rocks though, very comfy to shoot.
To be fair, depends on your use for said shotguns. Krieghoff is German, and they make some of the finest shotguns in the world, for tens of thousands of dollars.
Anon, it took me a long time to realize this, but you need to understand that most posts here are from the perspective of a teenage video gamer. Not only have they never heard of makers like Merkel, Sauer, Heym, or Kreighoff, but even if they had they'd write them off as overpriced "fudd guns"
frick, you're right. my personal hunting gun here in pacific northwest was made, or rather customized by "Martini" in BC, on a Heym action. https://martinigunmakers.com/ I genuinely thought people were more aware of the luxury and boutique gunmakers in Germany. For less ultraluxury, there's even Blaser and Sauer, which are definitely within affordable range for a millennial with a solid job.
>Bad rifles
How so? I've heard good things about Sabatti and Zoli
Do they even make shotguns? I've never heard of one.
Iirc they outsource CZ shotgun line in Turkey.
Damn, I wonder if Serbians are going to bring back the Zastava shotguns they used to make during Titoist rule
A) it’s a bolivian coca chewing board, do you really expect truthful or informed answers?
B) the weapons in question are not part of the market most anons are in.
It’s like German shotguns. Neckbeards don’t buy Krieghoff, Hartmann&Weiss, Ziegenhahn et al. For the most part they don’t even know those exist.
You could argue that rifles in the 1-3k range are rather entry level, especially in Europe, but that’s a different topic altogether.
>3k smootbore rifle entry level
Lmao, you're the german cuck bragging about strict gun laws and 3k hunting exam fee in /euk/ threads.
God you're such a cuck hahahaha
he probably meant a shotgun, the difference between a 3k shotgun and a 800$ shotgun in term of performance is absent. they will spread the same etc. If you like fancy engravings and woods suit yourself, but those are superflous.
Same with those blasers etc which have often worse accuracy than a howa or a real entry level tikka.
A) it’s a bolivian coca chewing board, do you really expect truthful or informed answers?
B) the weapons in question are not part of the market most anons are in.
It’s like German shotguns. Neckbeards don’t buy Krieghoff, Hartmann&Weiss, Ziegenhahn et al. For the most part they don’t even know those exist.
You could argue that rifles in the 1-3k range are rather entry level, especially in Europe, but that’s a different topic altogether.
A) it’s a bolivian coca chewing board, do you really expect truthful or informed answers?
B) the weapons in question are not part of the market most anons are in.
It’s like German shotguns. Neckbeards don’t buy Krieghoff, Hartmann&Weiss, Ziegenhahn et al. For the most part they don’t even know those exist.
You could argue that rifles in the 1-3k range are rather entry level, especially in Europe, but that’s a different topic altogether.
>1-3k range are rather entry level, especially in Europe
lmao yeah no, ever been hunting? most people here have some kind of supernova, a300, ARGO etc
>Neckbeards don’t buy Krieghoff, Hartmann&Weiss, Ziegenhahn et al. For the most part they don’t even know those exist.
True, the culture of fine rifle is mostly absent today, and most of /k/ is unaware of Euro gunmakers outside of CZ, HK and FN (mostly thanks to their government contracts). Not that general public can afford them anyway. I'd be glad to own some Ferlach-made rifle, but damn they're expensive.
>Ferlach rifle
Exquisite taste, anon. Break action safe queens can be relatively affordable if you don’t go for crazy engravings, dangerous game calibers and class 8+ wood furniture. >culture of fine rifle
It’s alive and well, just not around here. >general public cannot afford them.
Nice examples can be had for ~2k, anything apart from crazy Hofer type engraved weapons well below 10k. Even though that seems to be a lot at first glance, just look at what the tactitards spend on gizmos each year. Save up for 1-3 years and you can comfortably buy one.
>Break action safe queens can be relatively affordable if you don’t go for crazy engravings, dangerous game calibers and class 8+ wood furniture.
Right, but I'm into bolt actions. >It’s alive and well, just not around here.
Not really. There are some nice fine rifles in America, Parkwest in particular. I really dream of having a takedown model
Here in Russia Ferlach gunsmiths were always welcome on various gun shows before the sanctions hit. Obviously, those are not guns for average Joe, not by any mean, but they are always a pleasant sight to see. We don't have much of a bespoke firearm manufacturing, a couple of le sniper rifle makers (you know, open sights, aluminium chassis, Picasso rails all over the place), a couple of gaudy engravers, stock carvers and lots of "working man's guns" - few civilian models and lot of milsurp conversions. So, watching things like Parkwest, Fanzoj, Rigby is always a pleasure.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Right, but I'm into bolt actions.
Those are quite rare, even in DACH.
I have a HK branded M1 Super 90, it's pretty cool. People have to realize Benelli didn't have a chokehold over US semi-auto shotgun market before they were bought by Beretta. HK did them a solid and took care of US distribution.
There are very good boutique German shotguns. The one you have posted is not one of them.
what's so good about a break action? pretty hard to frick that up, you're paying for engravings and woodwork
Anon, have you ever seen the barrel of a high end shotgun?
On the fancypants brands you are absolutely paying something for the fancy finish. But the guns are a hell of a lot more complicated than it appears from looking outside.
Anyway, to answer your question, break actions have several advantages over other types of shotguns:
-There is no bolt, therefore the gun can be several inches shorter overall for the same barrel length, or you can have longer barrels for the same size gun.
-Two entirely separate lock mechanisms is ultimate reliability. Even if one suffers a catastrophic failure you still have an instant second shot which cannot jam or misfeed.
-You have the ability to load two different types of shells and/or have two different chokes installed at the same time, and you can choose which barrel you fire when. This is useful for hunting when you don't know what game you might encounter. Same when you're shooting doubles in clay sports: you have the wide choke for the short shot and the tighter choke for the longer one and you can choose which you shoot when
-Vastly improved ergonomics
The only disadvantage they have is capacity, and that makes them shitty fighting weapons.
You also have to consider the locks. High end sidelocks take a lot of highly specialized craftsmanship. Whether the trigger pull is actually that much better than with a boxlock to warrant the considerable price increase is up for debate. I personally own both and prefer the sidelock.
sidelocks *can* be done cheaply and still very reliable, with many of the same trigger pull advantages. see BRNO sidelocks. a lot of the specialized highend craftsmanship is because they need to make it perfect and boutique, and they want to follow 130+ years old techniques and designs. It's absolutely worth it if one has the disposable income and wants to own something cool. I'm more inclined to buy used ones for 1/10th of the price sometimes though, and then have it cleaned up and customized by local luxury gunsmiths.
Buying upper middle to high end guns used is the way in my opinion. Bought a nice Ferlach safe queen for a ver nice price last year.
I was also offered a mint Lebau Princess Paola for significantly under 10k. Should have pulled the trigger on that one, couldn’t justify the price at that time though.
Yes italian shotguns are in fact good.
sure, if you're into boutique hunting and sporting double barreled shotguns.
Fabarm is Italian, it was simply imported by HK. Germans don't really make a lot of shotguns, it seems to be more of an Italian thing with European weapons.
They do, even a good deal of entry level (1-3k) guns. What they generally don’t cater to is the budget and the tacticool market.
There are Merkel shoguns and drillings.
>Are Derya Shotguns any good
Turkshit. I wouldn't buy one. If you can, buy used soviet shotgun.They're alright.
That’s a FABARM (Italian) branded as an HK.
Fabarm makes quality guns
That isn't a German shotgun, it's made in Italy. Fabarm is an Italian manufacturer and they make b***hin guns.
Hijacking this thread. Are Derya Shotguns any good? The Derya MK12 AS240 looks great and is relatively inexpensive for a semi-auto shotgun. I wanted to buy a Saiga, but that dream shattered with the SMO in the Ukraine
>Are Derya Shotguns any good?
No. It's bottom of the barrel turkshit.
You'll be lucky if it lasts 500 rounds before it's completely broken.
If we're gonna jack it, Semi or Pump? I have people swear by the Benelli M4, but I've also had someone say if I've got a Saiga 12 not to bother
Saiga/Vepr are both very picky on ammo, Benelli will eat whatever shitbox you feed it and spit it right out.
Noted, though with the ban on Russian stuff I figure trading it might not be the best move?
They stopped selling Saiga in the U.S. like 15 years ago.
>german
that's not german
Fabarm are italian, they just were imported by HK for a while in the US. And yeah they are good, just don't be dumb like me and don't buy one with a wire stock
Did they ever collaborate or just resell for them?
I'd like to see a German-Italian collab shotgun.
Like when Audi bought Lamborghini and they made the Murciélago.
They just resold them
There's the HK512, which was a H&K project subcontracted to Franchi.
I'd like to try that one shotgun that's a break-open pump you gotta open to load the tube
The Neostead 2000?
The one I'm thinking of looks like a normal pump shotgun it holds 4 in the tube I think it's Turkish or some sort of Euro
How many times do we need to remind you
>GERMANY
Good Rifles, Good Pistols, Bad Shotguns
>ITALY
Good Shotguns, Good Pistols, Bad rifles
>RUSSIA
>Good Rifles, Good Shotguns, Bad Handguns
And then there's Czechia
Do they even make shotguns? I've never heard of one.
they do high quality hunting and skeet shooting double barrels, and some reasobably cheap pumpguns (probably licensed, i guess)
CZ brands some turkey made shotguns. same as Winchester SXP
Used to make some nice interesting shotguns, but the current CZ line is turkish made.
There were some nice/cool shotguns made by Zbrojovka Brno, both the over/under ZH series (ZH302 being particularly interesting for its muzzle brakes) and side by side ZP series guns. I regret not buying a nice Brno ZP a couple years ago, it was a shorty, almost a coach gun, had Poldi Elektro steel barrels and really nice finnish. It wasn't a fancy gun, but it felt really well made.
Picrel is the ZH302, funnily enough they were used by police SWAT teams and riot control units in the 1980s and into the 1990s, until they got replaced with more "tactical" shotguns.
In the immediate post-war years CZ made an Auto-5 knockoff called the 241. I like mine but finding the correct sized 16 gauge shells is a pain.
Unfortunately these shotguns ceased production when the commies took power.
What does it take, 16/67,5?
Auto-5s are sweet, I love mine.
The 241 took the long recoil action with friction ring from the Auto 5, but they just felt compelled to do things different, so instead of tube mag it has 2 round integral magazine in the bottom of the receiver with the rounds stacked one behind another towards the rear. Only made in 1947 - 1949 and some of them were made with aluminum receivers, machined from surplus German aircraft propellers from nearby army depot. Some people claim that early ones also used bored out surplus MG-131 aircraft machine gun barrels. They have thin wooden panels on the side that you can remove and then watch the loading cycle as if it was a cutaway gun:
I vaguelly remember they're 16/65 (they also made them in 12 and 20 gauge), but they're reportedly picky with ammo and generally don't like modern plastic-hulled star-crimped stuff, being designed for roll-crimped paper shells. They can be tweaked for more modern ammo, though.
That’s really cool man, I’ve never heard of that specific variation, thanks for sharing! Long recoil action rocks though, very comfy to shoot.
To be fair, depends on your use for said shotguns. Krieghoff is German, and they make some of the finest shotguns in the world, for tens of thousands of dollars.
Anon, it took me a long time to realize this, but you need to understand that most posts here are from the perspective of a teenage video gamer. Not only have they never heard of makers like Merkel, Sauer, Heym, or Kreighoff, but even if they had they'd write them off as overpriced "fudd guns"
But anon, cheap plastic slop is just as good!
frick, you're right. my personal hunting gun here in pacific northwest was made, or rather customized by "Martini" in BC, on a Heym action. https://martinigunmakers.com/ I genuinely thought people were more aware of the luxury and boutique gunmakers in Germany. For less ultraluxury, there's even Blaser and Sauer, which are definitely within affordable range for a millennial with a solid job.
>Heym
Solid choice. SR30?
>Bad rifles
How so? I've heard good things about Sabatti and Zoli
Iirc they outsource CZ shotgun line in Turkey.
Damn, I wonder if Serbians are going to bring back the Zastava shotguns they used to make during Titoist rule
A) it’s a bolivian coca chewing board, do you really expect truthful or informed answers?
B) the weapons in question are not part of the market most anons are in.
It’s like German shotguns. Neckbeards don’t buy Krieghoff, Hartmann&Weiss, Ziegenhahn et al. For the most part they don’t even know those exist.
You could argue that rifles in the 1-3k range are rather entry level, especially in Europe, but that’s a different topic altogether.
>3k smootbore rifle entry level
Lmao, you're the german cuck bragging about strict gun laws and 3k hunting exam fee in /euk/ threads.
God you're such a cuck hahahaha
What exactly is a smoothbore rifle, anon?
he probably meant a shotgun, the difference between a 3k shotgun and a 800$ shotgun in term of performance is absent. they will spread the same etc. If you like fancy engravings and woods suit yourself, but those are superflous.
Same with those blasers etc which have often worse accuracy than a howa or a real entry level tikka.
>1-3k range are rather entry level, especially in Europe
lmao yeah no, ever been hunting? most people here have some kind of supernova, a300, ARGO etc
>Neckbeards don’t buy Krieghoff, Hartmann&Weiss, Ziegenhahn et al. For the most part they don’t even know those exist.
True, the culture of fine rifle is mostly absent today, and most of /k/ is unaware of Euro gunmakers outside of CZ, HK and FN (mostly thanks to their government contracts). Not that general public can afford them anyway. I'd be glad to own some Ferlach-made rifle, but damn they're expensive.
>Ferlach rifle
Exquisite taste, anon. Break action safe queens can be relatively affordable if you don’t go for crazy engravings, dangerous game calibers and class 8+ wood furniture.
>culture of fine rifle
It’s alive and well, just not around here.
>general public cannot afford them.
Nice examples can be had for ~2k, anything apart from crazy Hofer type engraved weapons well below 10k. Even though that seems to be a lot at first glance, just look at what the tactitards spend on gizmos each year. Save up for 1-3 years and you can comfortably buy one.
>Break action safe queens can be relatively affordable if you don’t go for crazy engravings, dangerous game calibers and class 8+ wood furniture.
Right, but I'm into bolt actions.
>It’s alive and well, just not around here.
Not really. There are some nice fine rifles in America, Parkwest in particular. I really dream of having a takedown model
Here in Russia Ferlach gunsmiths were always welcome on various gun shows before the sanctions hit. Obviously, those are not guns for average Joe, not by any mean, but they are always a pleasant sight to see. We don't have much of a bespoke firearm manufacturing, a couple of le sniper rifle makers (you know, open sights, aluminium chassis, Picasso rails all over the place), a couple of gaudy engravers, stock carvers and lots of "working man's guns" - few civilian models and lot of milsurp conversions. So, watching things like Parkwest, Fanzoj, Rigby is always a pleasure.
>Right, but I'm into bolt actions.
Those are quite rare, even in DACH.
Germany makes great shotguns, but only break actions for hunting and sporting.
Kraut here. Never heard of HK shotguns before.
Everyone just buys Benelli over here
>Kraut here. Never heard of HK shotguns before
because they didn't make it, it's italian.
I have a HK branded M1 Super 90, it's pretty cool. People have to realize Benelli didn't have a chokehold over US semi-auto shotgun market before they were bought by Beretta. HK did them a solid and took care of US distribution.