The parent cartridge for the whole Creedmoor family of calibers is .30 TC. It offered slightly better performance than .308 but never caught on because it was moronic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Thompson_Center
> It offered slightly better performance than .308
I know it does this, but I can’t figure out why. You get from 308 to 30TC by cutting the case down and reducing the powder charge (pressure is the same), and somehow this translates to increased velocity? What magic is afoot here?
>and somehow this translates to increased velocity? What magic is afoot here?
None, it's untrue, you get less velocity and the cartridge was a massive failure. It makes no sense because it's bullshit.
I know Wikipedia says otherwise, but Wikipedia also says that the 30-03 is the parent cartridge to the 30-06.
U wot m8? 30TC gets identical velocities to 308win. Where 30tc has an edge over 308 is loading the super long and heavy stuff in magazines, such as ar10s.
Outside of that its the same.
>U wot m8? 30TC gets identical velocities to 308win.
No it doesn't, it gets less, because it has less case capacity and less powder. If you read the Hornady reloading manual which this fricking bullshit comes out of, they list a 22" barrel for the 308 data, and a 26" barrel for the 30tc data.
Hornady is absolutely full of shit. They do this with everything they touch.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>If you read the Hornady reloading manual which this fricking bullshit comes out of, they list a 22" barrel for the 308 data, and a 26" barrel for the 30tc data.
This. How I fricking hate barrel length frickery to fudge velocity numbers. That's even worse since it's right from the horse's butthole, but it comes up casually in other areas as well. Like with 5.7 everyone pushing it for handguns always quotes the 10.4" and 16" barrel velocity numbers. It's all so tiresome.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Okay
Nosler has 308 168gr loads and 30tc 168 gr loads, pretty identitical numbers, both running 24in barrels
Hodgdon has 30tc loads and 308 both at 168gr running identicaal numbers out of a 24in barrel
You can keep going with different sources out of the same barrel length and they are all gonna be identical or similar. The whole case capicity difference between the 30tc and 308 is 2 h2o gr. 30tc is just another one in line of 243win vs 6 creedmoor and 260rem vs 6.5 creedmoor. Aka all the tc variants produce similar results in a slightly smaller package compared to the 308 variants, therefore are superior for things such as ar10s
4 months ago
Anonymous
>Aka all the tc variants produce similar results in a slightly smaller package compared to the 308 variants, therefore are superior for things such as ar10s
No, the 308 variants are superior for AR10's and all autoloaders which use SR25 or AIAW mags because the mags and feed lips are shaped for the .308 case taper. Same reason why 7mm-08 works better than .284win in AR10s.
6.5sneed was made for PRS...in which it gets bent over and raped by 6mms which do exactly the same thing to it which it does to 308.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Forgot to add, they literally needed to make a cope-league for Sneeders who got Chucked in PRS; the NRL hunter "open light" division.
It's got steeper shoulder angle which provides a more consistent powder burn in the case, which is the same idea as the Ackley improved cartridges and may or may not make an appreciable difference.
The bigger difference is more space for the bullet ogive ahead of the shorter case within the standard overall length, which allows you to use longer, lower drag bullets with a better form factor and/or increase the bullet weight. It's one thing that separates the 30-06 from the .308 Win and is the key to success of the 6.5 Grendel.
I really don't see what capability the 6.5mm Creedmore provides that the .260 Remington could not have done years earlier. I guess Remington was just moronic at selling their caliber to potential users.
What is the point of this? Can't you just buy better .308 or 7.62mm NATO ammo and achieve the same thing?
The capability Sneedmore offers is that you can buy precision factory ammo from freshly built production lines, rather than 'hunting premium' .260 stuff made on ancient dies and machinery. Its literally that simple.
>could not have done
The point is it didn't. You sound like the kind of gay to say shit like: >8mm kurz came before 300 blk., why do people use 300 blk?
Affordable, available, usable in most .308 platforms with minimal frickaround, good selection of good bullet, flat trajectory, bucks the wind well. Why not?
I've started looking at most /k/ posts like I look at people who buy collectible sneakers and argue about sneaker brands
it's made the whole board a lot more bearable while I try and find the few good posts by people who actually know something, have practical experience or atleast shoot a lot
Why does this round cause so much seethe when it's an objectively better replacement for 308 in long distance shooting at a similar price point? Your conscript machinegun ammo can still coexist you know
260remington already existed, is more powerful, and feeds perfectly in 308 mags because of identical case taper.
6.5x47lapua already existed and is more inherently accurate.
6.5sneed is just another example of Hornady choosing to brute force their own stuff into the market rather than be a trusted loader of existing cartridges, and in the process condemning those cartridges to obscurity despite their superior attributes. 260 Remington by all rights should be the 6.5 AR10 cartridge of choice, and in the high-end it is, but at the low end it's not practical to offer it because ammo isn't as available.
>inherently accurate
People who believe this sort of thing have probably never fired a rifle in their lives.
260 Rem's case length it too long to seat high BC bullets and still fit in SA mags, even fixed mags let alone AR10 pattern ones.
6.5x47 is equal to 6.5 Creed as far as handling high BC bullets, but the Creedmore bests it in case capacity so can send those high BC bullets at higher velocities.
>People who believe this sort of thing have probably never fired a rifle in their lives.
No, you're just wrong. Some cartridges are notoriously difficult to load for, and some are famously easy. 6.5lapua and 6.5creed are perfect to compare in this way, because 6lap shoots like shit, and 6creed shoots really well.
As for your assertion about 260, no, it fits the 143's and 142's just fine. If you want to genuinely gap the 260 in bullet weight or performance you need to move up to the SAUM or PRC, Creedmoor is essentially a worse-feeding clone.
6 Creed is the second winningest chambering in PRS, only recently having moved behind 6 Dasher. 6.5 Creed was up there until the higher BC 6mm bullets showed up a few years ago, and was well ahead of 6.5x47.
It is only "hard" to load for for morons, but then what isn't hard for a moron?
And no 260 does not fit 147 ELDMs "just fine" within its SAAMI spec. They displace so much case capacity it ends up with less than 6.5 Creed, and with without a custom throat you can't get the bullet into the lands.
accurate >People who believe this sort of thing have probably never fired a rifle in their lives.
Good to know the entire F-class league tables are full of first time shooters.
So they all started shooting 7-6.5 PRC because it’s inherently accurate, right? Not just because high quality 6.5 PRC brass is readily available and the SAUM and WSM families are dying and brass is drying up.
because you really don't. .308 is cheaper, more plentiful, doesn't burn out barrels as fast and if you don't mind the recoil and don't shoot further than 500 yards there's basically no benefit to the 6.5 Creed.
>cheaper
not if it's match ammo >more plentiful
yeah, but if this were a deciding factor forever we'd still be using muskets >doesn't burn out barrels as fast
finally an actual tangible advantage >if you don't mind the recoil and don't shoot further than 500 yards
I do shoot further than 500 regularly and the lower recoil allows me to spot my own shots without a muzzle brake
> if this were a deciding factor
it's out there at your lgs, that's a definite advantage >we'd still be using muskets
no we wouldn't. what a moronic idea. >I do shoot further than 500 regularly
no you don't
it's out there at your lgs, that's a definite advantage
lucky for me I live in a place where long range shooting is popular and local stores are stocked with 6.5mm projectiles regularly >no we wouldn't. what a moronic idea.
you're right, we'd still be throwing rocks with slings >no you don't
wanna bet bud?
6.5 is everywhere. It’s definitely the third most popular center fire rifle cartridge after 223 and 308 here. Where not talking about 257 weatherby here
>it's an objectively better replacement for 308 in long distance shooting
From the people who brought you "let's militarize varmint rounds that Antifa rioters walk away from"
people are telling me 6.5 creedmoor is this ultimate perfectly flat shooting long distance caliber but then they'll tell me you can't get match grade ammo for it but there's plentiful for .308 and 30-06 so I don't understand what in the absolute fricking shit
think I'll just stick to muh .308 because it's cheaper and get a 30-06 if I get serious about long distance, it is what it is
>6.5 creedmoor is this ultimate perfectly flat shooting long distance caliber
It's not. What it is is an easy way to get magnum cartridge ballistics out of a short action and without the recoil associated with them.
>get a 30-06 if I get serious about long distance
30-06 is barely an improvement over .308 for that, outside of a few handloads or boutique match ammo there's virtually no difference. There are much better cartridges for that out there, short action or long action, some even in mini action lengths.
>30-06 is barely an improvement over .308 for that, outside of a few handloads or boutique match ammo there's virtually no difference
So apart from the ammo which makes a difference, there's no difference?
Yes, of course. 225 G1 of .777 and 185 G1 or .530 are essentially the same numbers. After all, they go the same speeds at the muzzle, which is how cartridge gooderness is decided.
That's not what i said at all. I'm sorry that you have trouble admitting that 30-06 is a very mediocre long range cartridge.
4 months ago
Anonymous
It's a necessary implied belief to state that the difference is barely an improvement.
I have no trouble admitting that 30-06 is a very mediocre long range cartridge, but that's only because of the wealth of magnum cartridges available. 30-06 is still far, far superior to 308 as a long range cartridge, 308 being a diabolically shit long range cartridge.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>It's a necessary implied belief
No it's not. Factory loads all have the same velocity/energy as the .308 and only the really heavy bullets that don't fit into .308 OAL offer any advantage, and those heavy bullets have even less velocity so the bullet drop and windage only start improving at really long ranges, 800yd+ i reckon, and those bullets are all in very rare boutique ammo. >30-06 is still far, far superior to 308 as a long range cartridge, 308 being a diabolically shit long range cartridge.
There's barely any difference between them, if .308 is diabolically shit then so is 30-06.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Just for the anon i'm replying to, i checked the catalog of SIG Elite Performance, Hornady and Black Hills for .308 and 30-06 ammo and all of them offer the rounds in identical bullet weights with the same exact bullets, from 150gr and lower to 175-180gr ones. With heavier 175gr bullets 30-06 loads offer about 100fps more velocity which is all the difference between the cartridges amounts to, which is absolutely nothing to write home about. Black hills offer 180gr Barnes TSX load for the 30-06 but with the identical velocity to the 178gr Hornady load in .308 the latter is actually superior with a better BC.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Then why is .308 so popular as a long range cartridge? 30-06 was made obsolete ages ago by being no better than .308 in a smaller chassis while being worse than magnum cartridges in the same chassis. It's relevance has been carried by reloaders and that's it
4 months ago
Anonymous
>shitting on 30-06
Lemme guess, small feminine arms?
4 months ago
Anonymous
There’s like 75-100 fps difference between 308 and 3006 out of a 22 or 24 in sub180gr loads. That’s not nothing, but it isn’t enough to make one significantly better at range. And let’s not pretend that 3006 easily seats 200grainers
Sneedmoor.
Formerly Chuckmoor
Guess its just that quiet
ur nut gonna believ this
The parent cartridge for the whole Creedmoor family of calibers is .30 TC. It offered slightly better performance than .308 but never caught on because it was moronic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Thompson_Center
> It offered slightly better performance than .308
I know it does this, but I can’t figure out why. You get from 308 to 30TC by cutting the case down and reducing the powder charge (pressure is the same), and somehow this translates to increased velocity? What magic is afoot here?
>and somehow this translates to increased velocity? What magic is afoot here?
None, it's untrue, you get less velocity and the cartridge was a massive failure. It makes no sense because it's bullshit.
I know Wikipedia says otherwise, but Wikipedia also says that the 30-03 is the parent cartridge to the 30-06.
U wot m8? 30TC gets identical velocities to 308win. Where 30tc has an edge over 308 is loading the super long and heavy stuff in magazines, such as ar10s.
Outside of that its the same.
>U wot m8? 30TC gets identical velocities to 308win.
No it doesn't, it gets less, because it has less case capacity and less powder. If you read the Hornady reloading manual which this fricking bullshit comes out of, they list a 22" barrel for the 308 data, and a 26" barrel for the 30tc data.
Hornady is absolutely full of shit. They do this with everything they touch.
>If you read the Hornady reloading manual which this fricking bullshit comes out of, they list a 22" barrel for the 308 data, and a 26" barrel for the 30tc data.
This. How I fricking hate barrel length frickery to fudge velocity numbers. That's even worse since it's right from the horse's butthole, but it comes up casually in other areas as well. Like with 5.7 everyone pushing it for handguns always quotes the 10.4" and 16" barrel velocity numbers. It's all so tiresome.
Okay
Nosler has 308 168gr loads and 30tc 168 gr loads, pretty identitical numbers, both running 24in barrels
Hodgdon has 30tc loads and 308 both at 168gr running identicaal numbers out of a 24in barrel
You can keep going with different sources out of the same barrel length and they are all gonna be identical or similar. The whole case capicity difference between the 30tc and 308 is 2 h2o gr. 30tc is just another one in line of 243win vs 6 creedmoor and 260rem vs 6.5 creedmoor. Aka all the tc variants produce similar results in a slightly smaller package compared to the 308 variants, therefore are superior for things such as ar10s
>Aka all the tc variants produce similar results in a slightly smaller package compared to the 308 variants, therefore are superior for things such as ar10s
No, the 308 variants are superior for AR10's and all autoloaders which use SR25 or AIAW mags because the mags and feed lips are shaped for the .308 case taper. Same reason why 7mm-08 works better than .284win in AR10s.
6.5sneed was made for PRS...in which it gets bent over and raped by 6mms which do exactly the same thing to it which it does to 308.
Forgot to add, they literally needed to make a cope-league for Sneeders who got Chucked in PRS; the NRL hunter "open light" division.
It's got steeper shoulder angle which provides a more consistent powder burn in the case, which is the same idea as the Ackley improved cartridges and may or may not make an appreciable difference.
The bigger difference is more space for the bullet ogive ahead of the shorter case within the standard overall length, which allows you to use longer, lower drag bullets with a better form factor and/or increase the bullet weight. It's one thing that separates the 30-06 from the .308 Win and is the key to success of the 6.5 Grendel.
what the frick
I really don't see what capability the 6.5mm Creedmore provides that the .260 Remington could not have done years earlier. I guess Remington was just moronic at selling their caliber to potential users.
What is the point of this? Can't you just buy better .308 or 7.62mm NATO ammo and achieve the same thing?
anon, I think you should re examine the meme and have a good long think about it before replying
The capability Sneedmore offers is that you can buy precision factory ammo from freshly built production lines, rather than 'hunting premium' .260 stuff made on ancient dies and machinery. Its literally that simple.
>could not have done
The point is it didn't. You sound like the kind of gay to say shit like:
>8mm kurz came before 300 blk., why do people use 300 blk?
6.5 Creed has a shorter case length to allow longer bullets to fit SA magazines.
It is also more space efficient due to a steeper shoulder angle.
I want everyone that renames a cartridge and pretends it's new shot to death with the original.
Go read Wikipedia stop being a moron
>noooo don't discuss weapon calibers on a weapon board, we have to talk about Ukraine!
You're not wrong but also OP could have put the smallest bit of effort into his thread rather than asking a nebulous question and leaving
Affordable, available, usable in most .308 platforms with minimal frickaround, good selection of good bullet, flat trajectory, bucks the wind well. Why not?
30% higher hit probability at long range with a barrel change on an ar10.
It's fun to say
what does this thread have to do with ukraine? jannies delete this shit slava ukrainii!
yeah what's the point when 7mm-08 exists
It's America's cope that we didn't accept the superiority of the 6.5 Swedish cartridge.
See above
6.5x55 is a long action cartridge. 6.5 Creed is short action.
>higher BC lighter weight bullets
>compatible with short action rifles
why does this make people upset
I think because so few people actually shoot. Or at least shoot a lot, in field conditions, or a variety of distances.
I've started looking at most /k/ posts like I look at people who buy collectible sneakers and argue about sneaker brands
it's made the whole board a lot more bearable while I try and find the few good posts by people who actually know something, have practical experience or atleast shoot a lot
Why does this round cause so much seethe when it's an objectively better replacement for 308 in long distance shooting at a similar price point? Your conscript machinegun ammo can still coexist you know
too popular with the crowd contrarians hate. contrarians will say 30-06 is best despite not owning a rifle that fire it.
260remington already existed, is more powerful, and feeds perfectly in 308 mags because of identical case taper.
6.5x47lapua already existed and is more inherently accurate.
6.5sneed is just another example of Hornady choosing to brute force their own stuff into the market rather than be a trusted loader of existing cartridges, and in the process condemning those cartridges to obscurity despite their superior attributes. 260 Remington by all rights should be the 6.5 AR10 cartridge of choice, and in the high-end it is, but at the low end it's not practical to offer it because ammo isn't as available.
>inherently accurate
People who believe this sort of thing have probably never fired a rifle in their lives.
260 Rem's case length it too long to seat high BC bullets and still fit in SA mags, even fixed mags let alone AR10 pattern ones.
6.5x47 is equal to 6.5 Creed as far as handling high BC bullets, but the Creedmore bests it in case capacity so can send those high BC bullets at higher velocities.
>People who believe this sort of thing have probably never fired a rifle in their lives.
No, you're just wrong. Some cartridges are notoriously difficult to load for, and some are famously easy. 6.5lapua and 6.5creed are perfect to compare in this way, because 6lap shoots like shit, and 6creed shoots really well.
As for your assertion about 260, no, it fits the 143's and 142's just fine. If you want to genuinely gap the 260 in bullet weight or performance you need to move up to the SAUM or PRC, Creedmoor is essentially a worse-feeding clone.
6 Creed is the second winningest chambering in PRS, only recently having moved behind 6 Dasher. 6.5 Creed was up there until the higher BC 6mm bullets showed up a few years ago, and was well ahead of 6.5x47.
It is only "hard" to load for for morons, but then what isn't hard for a moron?
And no 260 does not fit 147 ELDMs "just fine" within its SAAMI spec. They displace so much case capacity it ends up with less than 6.5 Creed, and with without a custom throat you can't get the bullet into the lands.
accurate
>People who believe this sort of thing have probably never fired a rifle in their lives.
Good to know the entire F-class league tables are full of first time shooters.
you've clearly misunderstood what he's said on such a fundamental level that beginning to explain it to you is pointless
>all those words
>not just calling him moronic
>"OMG, I can't even"
So they all started shooting 7-6.5 PRC because it’s inherently accurate, right? Not just because high quality 6.5 PRC brass is readily available and the SAUM and WSM families are dying and brass is drying up.
>but why not 260 Remington?
Short ogive space, other than that they’re identical. But ogive space is really important for a long range cartridge.
I'm sure it wouldn't be a big problem if Remington successful sold it like the 6.5mm Creedmore guys have done. Real missed opportunity on their part.
Nufudds
it's all contrarianism
308truthers arent working on logic but sunken cost and or "but you don't need that!"ism
because you really don't. .308 is cheaper, more plentiful, doesn't burn out barrels as fast and if you don't mind the recoil and don't shoot further than 500 yards there's basically no benefit to the 6.5 Creed.
doesn't matter it's better
>cheaper
not if it's match ammo
>more plentiful
yeah, but if this were a deciding factor forever we'd still be using muskets
>doesn't burn out barrels as fast
finally an actual tangible advantage
>if you don't mind the recoil and don't shoot further than 500 yards
I do shoot further than 500 regularly and the lower recoil allows me to spot my own shots without a muzzle brake
Flatter shooting is also often better even within 500 yards, making wind calls a lot easier
> if this were a deciding factor
it's out there at your lgs, that's a definite advantage
>we'd still be using muskets
no we wouldn't. what a moronic idea.
>I do shoot further than 500 regularly
no you don't
it's out there at your lgs, that's a definite advantage
lucky for me I live in a place where long range shooting is popular and local stores are stocked with 6.5mm projectiles regularly
>no we wouldn't. what a moronic idea.
you're right, we'd still be throwing rocks with slings
>no you don't
wanna bet bud?
6.5 is everywhere. It’s definitely the third most popular center fire rifle cartridge after 223 and 308 here. Where not talking about 257 weatherby here
>it's an objectively better replacement for 308 in long distance shooting
From the people who brought you "let's militarize varmint rounds that Antifa rioters walk away from"
the only guy who walked away got hit in the arm though
>mossy oak chink with an earring
lmao
people are telling me 6.5 creedmoor is this ultimate perfectly flat shooting long distance caliber but then they'll tell me you can't get match grade ammo for it but there's plentiful for .308 and 30-06 so I don't understand what in the absolute fricking shit
think I'll just stick to muh .308 because it's cheaper and get a 30-06 if I get serious about long distance, it is what it is
>6.5 creedmoor is this ultimate perfectly flat shooting long distance caliber
It's not. What it is is an easy way to get magnum cartridge ballistics out of a short action and without the recoil associated with them.
>get a 30-06 if I get serious about long distance
30-06 is barely an improvement over .308 for that, outside of a few handloads or boutique match ammo there's virtually no difference. There are much better cartridges for that out there, short action or long action, some even in mini action lengths.
>30-06 is barely an improvement over .308 for that, outside of a few handloads or boutique match ammo there's virtually no difference
So apart from the ammo which makes a difference, there's no difference?
>So apart from the ammo which is barely an improvement, there's no difference?
yes, thanks for your reading comprehension
Yes, of course. 225 G1 of .777 and 185 G1 or .530 are essentially the same numbers. After all, they go the same speeds at the muzzle, which is how cartridge gooderness is decided.
That's not what i said at all. I'm sorry that you have trouble admitting that 30-06 is a very mediocre long range cartridge.
It's a necessary implied belief to state that the difference is barely an improvement.
I have no trouble admitting that 30-06 is a very mediocre long range cartridge, but that's only because of the wealth of magnum cartridges available. 30-06 is still far, far superior to 308 as a long range cartridge, 308 being a diabolically shit long range cartridge.
>It's a necessary implied belief
No it's not. Factory loads all have the same velocity/energy as the .308 and only the really heavy bullets that don't fit into .308 OAL offer any advantage, and those heavy bullets have even less velocity so the bullet drop and windage only start improving at really long ranges, 800yd+ i reckon, and those bullets are all in very rare boutique ammo.
>30-06 is still far, far superior to 308 as a long range cartridge, 308 being a diabolically shit long range cartridge.
There's barely any difference between them, if .308 is diabolically shit then so is 30-06.
Just for the anon i'm replying to, i checked the catalog of SIG Elite Performance, Hornady and Black Hills for .308 and 30-06 ammo and all of them offer the rounds in identical bullet weights with the same exact bullets, from 150gr and lower to 175-180gr ones. With heavier 175gr bullets 30-06 loads offer about 100fps more velocity which is all the difference between the cartridges amounts to, which is absolutely nothing to write home about. Black hills offer 180gr Barnes TSX load for the 30-06 but with the identical velocity to the 178gr Hornady load in .308 the latter is actually superior with a better BC.
Then why is .308 so popular as a long range cartridge? 30-06 was made obsolete ages ago by being no better than .308 in a smaller chassis while being worse than magnum cartridges in the same chassis. It's relevance has been carried by reloaders and that's it
>shitting on 30-06
Lemme guess, small feminine arms?
There’s like 75-100 fps difference between 308 and 3006 out of a 22 or 24 in sub180gr loads. That’s not nothing, but it isn’t enough to make one significantly better at range. And let’s not pretend that 3006 easily seats 200grainers
My local ace hardware has stacks of Eldm in both creedmores
Honestly, just because it was the caliber of my first rifle that I bought.
It literally addressed the (at least perceived) shortcomings of .308. That's it.
7mm-08 does that better without sacrificing lethality
They’re both lethal as hell with modern bullets. I’d have no complains taking either against moose or black bear