Statistically, all the common pistol cartridges perform the same. However, .40 is bulkier than 9mm, making it an objectively worse choice if you want to min-max.
>>but but my fantasy LARP demands maximum barrier penetration
If that's what you want 10mm offers even moar powar than .40 without affecting your capacity.
I agree, and I'd like to point out that all min-maxing is larping. >9mm has more capacity which I'll need in case of multiple attackers blah blah blah
It's all a fantasy.
Anything other than a snubnose is a larp. But hey, it's a free country - larp away
It really is, I had a USP 40, traded it for a 10mm tanfo, then traded that for an original 686. Don't be like me, don't get FPEpilled and get *this* close to buying into 9x25 dillon
.40 is ideal for a compact pistol for carry >mogs 9mm >mogs 357 out of a snub >180-200gr loads on par with .45 ACP +P but have more sectional density >still comfy to shoot
If I can carry a bigger gun practically, I take a USP loaded with pissin hot 45. If I want to carry a 1 pound gun in my pocket, .380 or .38.
>get a 9mm it's just as good
9mm is literally less terminally effective than .32 or .380
PtR (Pistol-to-Revolver)?
MtFtM >be low t >find reddit >get on estrogen >reddit says trannies should be armed >get a 10mm because it's way more powerful and based than 40 S&W shooting the same bullet at the same velocity >ultra powerful handcannon cartridge forces their body to produce more test and reverse the effects of the estrogen
Many such cases
I would not call .40SW comfy to shoot lol - shit tears up your hands like a motherfricker: I always tape up if I'm going to shoot a Limited match with one. Frick using a small handgun that uses that cartridge. >TIL we should all be carrying Skorpions
>.40 S&W mogs 357 out of a snub. >.40 is still comfy to shoot. >9mm is literally less terminally effective than .32 or .380
The bullshit is strong with this guy.
>being a limpwristed homosexual >ignores real world data >wow look at these great terminal ballistics I'm sure there's no way for a larger diameter bullet with more mass and velocity to top t-
>being a limpwristed homosexual >ignores real world data >wow look at these great terminal ballistics I'm sure there's no way for a larger diameter bullet with more mass and velocity to top t-
>hat
I do, but in the end you realize you should have bought a .357 Magnum.
I talk shit on 10mm more than most but even it is better than 357 mag, the most overrated handgun cartridge ever
I don't like 357 but I love me 38s
They exceed in their respective niches
J frames, especially the aluminum ones, are fantastic for carry and the scandium j frames are basically the only 357s that appeal to me
K frames make great target guns. I've never felt a gun that's as nice to shoot as my Clark Custom PPC model 10.
Didn't particularly care for the 357 N or K frames I had though. Too much gun for a caliber underwhelming compared to other calibers that shoot nicely in those size guns.
On paper yes. You get slightly more energy out of specialty handloads. In practice that is outweighed by the fact that .357 Magnums will eat anything as long as OAL is right. In an autoloader you start running into issues with feeding with different bullets and overall lengths as well as spring weight problems with differing loads pretty quickly. The case geometry of .357 also allows for the use of the really slow handgun powders (H110, 2400, etc) which 10mm can't use properly. It is overrated among boomers, though. However 10mm is on it's way to reach the same status with younger generations.
>In an autoloader you start running into issues with feeding with different bullets and overall lengths as well as spring weight problems with differing loads pretty quickly.
Only true in Coonans, the vast majority of bullet types and different commercial .357mag will run through a .357 Desert Eagle no problem, it’ll even feed .38spl from the magazine, but you’ve gotta rack the slide every time like a big deadly spring airsoft gun.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I aimed that more at the 10mm, but that's interesting nonetheless. I wonder if the Deagle brand Deagle's gas operation improves reliablility with different loads.
I can only get 8 shots of 357 at most though.
True, although I'd hazard a guess that both are mostly shot for recreation and at wild beasts these days.
Forgot to include these were shot out of a 3" Glock 27, which has less length from the breech to the muzzle than a snub nose j frame. Imagine worshipping a cartridge that has worse terminal ballistics than a subcompact .40. I don't think it could be more over for 357cels.
Yeah, but I hate having a million types of ammo out there. I wish the market would consolidate on fewer standard calibers, then make those cheaper and better thanks to the economy of scale. Yes, maybe .40 is a little more perfectly optimal in a full frame handgun than 9mm is, but I'd like to ask you the reverse question--is the stopping power between .40 and 9mm really gonna make a difference in any real world scenario you are likely to end up in? I think .380, 9mm, and 10mm cover all your bases for regular semi-auto handgun carry and everyone else should take their other snowflake calibers and frick off.
I think the same thing about rifles too by the way. Your fricking 6.5 Creedmoor or 7mm Remington or whatever other flavor of the week bullshit people are all getting their hunting rifles in nowadays are not better enough than .308 for the real-world applications you're using them for to justify having 50 different types of ammo for the same goddamn purpose. Some of the huge magnum rifle rounds have their place when you're shooting huge game or at very long ranges, but other than that just carry .308 and shut the frick up.
You'd probably have to have significant amounts of police requesting hot 10mm hollow points before anything better than 40 comes around. All the good hollow points are optimized for 40 velocities so unless you're shooting 200/220gr at max loads there's not much point to 10mm. 45 ACP/Super+P is neat because you can hit 1000ftlb pretty easily with it without a super long barrel which means in some states you can legally hunt deer with a 1911 but not something of a lesser caliber.
[...] >I've loaded 165 grain 40 cal bullets going 1300 fps out of a 4" barrel
bullshit
Quickload was saying it should've gone a little faster but the ladder plateaud in velocity at 1300 fps. I was thinking of trying Magnum primers to see if I could bump it up a little and maybe hit 1350. When you don't have a Glock you can load in excess of 40ksi without blowing your gun up. Power pistol is great for hot 40
So you're loading what is essentially a wildcat as there is no +p designation for 40 s&w. In that case, we can include my 180 grain 357 mag loaded to 43000 psi, which goes 1300 fps out of a 2.5" barrel
3 months ago
Anonymous
I'm pretty sure I was still at standard pressure based on the velocity but we can still include yours, it still doesn't mean it's gonna have better terminal ballistics than 40 while being harder to shoot than 40
3 months ago
Anonymous
You just said "in excess of 40k psi" which is 5000 psi above the saami max for 40 cal
3 months ago
Anonymous
I also said I didn't get the performance I expected
3 months ago
Anonymous
I can't find a way to fudge the numbers to get 1300 no matter what. This is the expected velocity for a full size gun with a 4.5" barrel, loaded within a c**t hair of pmax (in practice, you would never load this close to max).
For what it's worth, GRT has always been spot on for me - I always get within 20 fps of predicted velocity if I mind all the details on the calculator.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Quickload shows much lower pressure for power pistol and the velocities for each charge lined up with what I was getting shooting over a chrono and I wasn't getting any pressure signs so I'm pretty sure the pressures were reasonable enough. .357 sig was put in a lot of guns that were designed for .40 with basically no changes other than the barrel so it's not like it's extreme or dangerous to load 40 in excess of 40ksi when the CIP spec for 357 sig is over 44ksi, especially when plenty of people are pushing it well past that successfully.
357 Magnum you can load up to full 62-63ksi rifle pressures without issue in a lot of guns. With a rifle barrel you can easily break 2200fps where you're in a whole other class in terms of terminal ballistics. From a revolver you get a big boom, which does contribute to stopping power, but you aren't gonna get better terminal ballistics than 40
3 months ago
Anonymous
>you can load 357 Mag to 60,000psi in a lot of guns
There's only two revolvers good for 353 Casull, apart from certain bolt actions or Ruger No1, what are you thinking?
3 months ago
Anonymous
GRT and Quickload are both piss for straightwalls. And in the case of GRT, the powder models themselves are mostly dogshit. Only occasionally are they actually correct.
QL was correct about some 44 Mag +P I loaded, but was overpredicting velocit, for my 357 Mag +P++ load(approaching 55,000psi)
40 doesn't mog 357 mag out of a snub unless you're comparing a snubnose 357 with a full size duty 40 cal handgun in which case it just barely catches it. Or you're comparing boutique 40 cal to factory 357 mag. Picrel, it's 158 grain hdy xtps out of a 1 7/8" barrel on a lcr
For comparison I have a 40 cal shot string with a 165 grain hollowpoint at an avg of 1050 fps. Nearly identical energy, but it was shot with a glock 22, not some compact firearm with a 3" barrel >t. Shoots and reloads both 40 and 357
>40 doesn't mog 357 mag out of a snub unless you're comparing a snubnose 357 with a full size duty 40 cal handgun in which case it just barely catches it.
I know, which is why I called him a bullshitter. Look at my comment and look at who I'm responding to who made that bold but dishonest claim.
.40 is pretty much a dead round
nobody wants it anymore and nobody is making guns for it
not even SIG, one of its biggest supporters, cares about it
the only thing keeping it alive is the 15 minutes of fame 10mm is getting, because it can also shoot the cheaper .40 "for training"
when the spotlight fades on 10mm (and it is because no one is buying guns and ammo) the .40 will become a niche round like .357 sig
While its not my preferred round its always sad when a caliber's supply goes down.
>mogs 9mm >mogs 357 out of a snub
Your own chart says otherwise >get a 10mm because it's way more powerful and based than 40 S&W shooting the same bullet at the same velocity
But it doesn’t shoot at the same velocity
10mm would make more sense in a compact but unfortunately there aren't any good options for that configuration. In a full size gun, turbo 45 becomes manageable and mogs 10mm while only being down 1 round.
It really is, I had a USP 40, traded it for a 10mm tanfo, then traded that for an original 686. Don't be like me, don't get FPEpilled and get *this* close to buying into 9x25 dillon
>buy a model 28 >sell it because it's clapped out and .357 isn't all that powerful >buy a 3" 65-3 >sell it because it's overweight, underpowered, and low capacity compared to any 45
It takes a lot of revolver with a lot of cartridge to outdo even a 1911 with some nice hot 45. I don't even shoot my .41 magnums much anymore because my .45s do what they can but better. A Smith 69 and USP 45 are the same size and weight and both are capable of sending a 240gr bullet 1250fps but the USP holds 3x the rounds and you automatically get a single action trigger for all but one of those.
I would not call .40SW comfy to shoot lol - shit tears up your hands like a motherfricker: I always tape up if I'm going to shoot a Limited match with one. Frick using a small handgun that uses that cartridge. >TIL we should all be carrying Skorpions
That's not 357 snub recoil, unless that gun is hiding 3 lb somewhere in that frame
The recoil impulse from a gun weighing around 1lb or less is crazy. It feels like getting kicked in the hand by a 3 legged mule. Even if you have a beastmode death grip and can keep the sights on the plate, it feels like the joints in your hand are being violently shaken apart. My hand ached for two weeks after shooting 20 rounds in a session.
Before you accuse me of being a recoillet, I want to add that I would describe 357 mag out of a combat revolver as pleasant. There, now you may call me a recoillet.
>nuh uh, you're lying
I don't know what to tell you, it's a 27oz gun and I'm big enough to grip the fricker. 158gr berry over 13.5gr of AA9.
It took several trips to the range to get to where I can shoot it. I mostly shoot magnums and my 44 mag +P loads kick harder in a 60oz gun.
It's not a matter of being bad. It's a matter of not offering anything over .40 Smart & White unless you go for $3/round custom ammo that's never in stock. Every 10mm fan I've ever known denounces every commercially available 10mm load. .40 Sneed'em & Waste'm is perfectly balanced for dealing with human problems. 10mm's niche is handloaders and Alaskans. They're both good in their intended roles.
You're doing God's work exposing .357 Magnum. I don't understand why people use that shit out of sub-4" barrels. Seems like a total waste.
The argument for both 10mm and .357 is handloading. Most commercial loads don't offer any benefits over .40 whatever other cartridge, sure, but the potential for hot handloads is huge. My .357 wadcutters made from melted down wheel weights and loaded a little overzealously while somewhat intoxicated that I keep in the Ziploc bag labeled "FOR RUGER ONLY" are going to perform literally off your charts.
Any serious shooter who doesn't handload is a mouthbreather. If you don't handload just shut the frick up and shoot 9mm anyway
Listen here little baby. You're gonna get a lot of hurtful and degrading comments, but that ain't what I'm about. Let me just say, you are perfect the way you are. You hear me sugar? PERFECT. Don't ever change. You deserve anything and everything you want. Stay safe for me, baby girl. >Mfw thinking of you hurting
.40 is pretty much a dead round
nobody wants it anymore and nobody is making guns for it
not even SIG, one of its biggest supporters, cares about it
the only thing keeping it alive is the 15 minutes of fame 10mm is getting, because it can also shoot the cheaper .40 "for training"
when the spotlight fades on 10mm (and it is because no one is buying guns and ammo) the .40 will become a niche round like .357 sig
>it's still ubiquitous everywhere
The used GUNS in .40 are ubiquitous everywhere because every police agency sold them off overnight but .40 ammo is not what it was even back during the 2016 panic. It's notably less common than just a few years ago. I have 2 lgs that don't have any .40 ammo at all anymore.
.40 is unpopular now because the average gun owner decided on 9mm or .45, but real autists know that .40 chumps .45. Also .357 sig needs to come back because it's uncircumcised as God intended.
>".40 chumps .45."
But not 10mm, .45 super, .460 rowland, etc. I just don't see the point in investing in .40, you do you though. >".357 sig needs to come back."
Agreed. Also its too bad that 9x25 dillon never caught on.
none of those calibers fit into a 9mm-sized gun you fricking idiot. did everyone forget about frame size???
3 months ago
Anonymous
>did everyone forget about frame size???
.357 SIG fits in a 9mm frame, however, if I need something to fit in a 9mm frame then I'll use 9mm.
3 months ago
Anonymous
wasn't stuffing .40 into 9mm frames the reason glocknade was a meme?
3 months ago
Anonymous
It's also the reason why "muh snappy recoil" is a meme. .40 out of a gun with a frame designed for .40 and not a recycled 9mm frame isn't snappy at all.
Carry 9mm if you want price and capacity. Carry 10mm if you want muh stopping powah. Anything in between those two is just the worst of both worlds, bulkier and more expensive than 9mm without being significantly better.
Those are literally the only two semi-auto pistol cartridges that should exist in modern usage besides maybe .380 for subcompacts and 5.7 for autists.
"It's inferior because capacity" is a thing when you're comparing something like a 1911and a glock 17 and your round count more than doubles
It's much less of a thing when you're comparing a glock 22 vs a glock 17 - do you really think 16 rounds vs 18 is gonna make a difference?
Yeah, but I hate having a million types of ammo out there. I wish the market would consolidate on fewer standard calibers, then make those cheaper and better thanks to the economy of scale. Yes, maybe .40 is a little more perfectly optimal in a full frame handgun than 9mm is, but I'd like to ask you the reverse question--is the stopping power between .40 and 9mm really gonna make a difference in any real world scenario you are likely to end up in? I think .380, 9mm, and 10mm cover all your bases for regular semi-auto handgun carry and everyone else should take their other snowflake calibers and frick off.
I think the same thing about rifles too by the way. Your fricking 6.5 Creedmoor or 7mm Remington or whatever other flavor of the week bullshit people are all getting their hunting rifles in nowadays are not better enough than .308 for the real-world applications you're using them for to justify having 50 different types of ammo for the same goddamn purpose. Some of the huge magnum rifle rounds have their place when you're shooting huge game or at very long ranges, but other than that just carry .308 and shut the frick up.
The existence of 40 does not threaten the existence of your favorite caliber. In 40 years I'll still be handloading 40 cal. As long as somebody makes 40 caliber bullets I don't care whatsoever about what happens to the market.
>"Yeah, but I hate having a million types of ammo out there. I wish the market would consolidate on fewer standard calibers"
I wonder where the "Frick Ya Mudda" guy is when we need him. If it was up to morons like this we would all be stuck using 8mm Lebel and .38 long rimfire.
They make double-stack 1911's now, so even then, it's not as much of an excuse as it was 20 years ago. You can easily and cheaply get a 12 round 1911, such as the Rock Island Armory Standard GI which has a 10 round and 14 round magazine.
Based, I love seeing .40 start to gain more traction again. 9mmgays and .380sois get triggered anytime the superior .40 gets mentioned. Sorry you guys shoot wimpy yuro calibers that will get you killed. .40 gives greater HP performance that isn't dependent on barrel length or velocity, much greater energy, marginally more recoil, more practical than a 10mm, and only two (2) less rounds than 9mm. AND it fits in medium frames.
So yeah, .40 is based and the sooner you realize this the better.
Significantly faster follow up shots over full power 10mm loads, on the order of emptying a 15 rd mag about 3 full seconds faster than 10mm with the same accuracy.
So, on one hand, you get a big pistol to get better stopping power in fewer shots. On the other, if you want to min-max in the direction of damage, you should have a .460 Rowland.
I disagree, flat nose .45acp is more effective. Specifically, 1000fps flat nose 45acp is the best because it can still be suppressed while delivering over 511 foot pounds of force.
Most handgun cartridges have a similar effect on the human body within common engagement ranges. Using any of them is fine but there's little reason to choose one over the other. Availability and cost are the most important factors.
>thinks availability or cost are a concern when reloading and casting are a thing >ignores real world shooting data and terminal ballistics testing and development >refuses to use a better caliber because he can't get plinking loads for 20cpr at walmart
the absolute 9mm cope
Real world shooting data, as in statistics based on real world shootings involving human beings and not gelatin blocks, show that most common handgun cartridges have a similar effect when it comes to killing said human being with the differences being within standard deviation.
Why do so many of you morons struggle with the concept of balancing competing requirements? >hurr durr if you want power just use 10mm >hurr durr if you want follow up shots and capacity just use 9mm
I want an optimal mix of both. .40 S&W is an engineered solution that didn’t use video game logic.
>I want an optimal mix of both.
The problem is you're not getting a mix of both. It's not actually better at killing things than any other common handgun cartridge, and don't you dare come back with "but muh bigger number" immediately after accusing everyone else of using video game logic.
You lose the higher capacity, low recoil, and cheap ammo of 9mm and get nothing in return. You lose the easy suppression, significantly less snappy recoil impulse, and massive hollowpoint expansion of .45 and get nothing in return. At very best, .40 is a sidegrade, and at worst it's an unhappy medium worst of both worlds compromise. If you already have a .40 and like it, that's fine and dandy, but for someone buying their first handgun there is no good reason to pick .40.
.40 has more power and better penetration than 9 and .45. It is less powerful than hot 10mm loads but most loads are the same and .40 fits into smaller handguns. If anything, 10mm is the superfluous option out of these 4.
>.40 has more power
There's that video game logic. Humans don't have hit points. It may be more power on paper, but it's not more by a significant enough margin to translate into being more lethal. Rifles are more lethal than pistols, but that's because they have several times more power than a handgun cartridge. For instance, .223 (a relatively small rifle round) has about three times the muzzle energy of .40 S&W. That's enough of a difference to make a difference. The difference in muzzle energy between 9mm or .45 and .40 S&W is a few percent at most. That's not enough of a difference to make a difference. >and better penetration
I didn't know if that was true or not, so I looked it up here >https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
and it looks like on average it isn't much of a difference. That might be more of an issue if 9mm or .45 were known to underpenetrate, but they're really not. By the charts in that link, all but the unusually light bullets for 9mm and .45, the ones made specifically to not penetrate as much, consistently meet or exceed the FBI standards. Hell, even some modern .32 ACP can exceed the FBI standard.
Maybe. Sometimes +P is enough extra speed to get better penetration when regular ones won’t
3 months ago
Anonymous
Depending on the material properties of the projectile, higher velocity can result in faster expansion and lower penetration as a result
In extreme cases it could cause a projectile that wasn't going to expand at all to start expanding, causing dramatically less penetration
3 months ago
Anonymous
This is also true. I was thinking something like a 115gr gold dot doesn’t meet penetration minimums but the +P does.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I think 115gr JHP out of a 5 inch can under penetrate if it goes too fast, expansion too great to meet FBI minimums while through a shorter barrel with less velocity it doesn’t expand as much and meets FBI standards
>Humans don't have hit points.
Don't fricking strawman me homosexual. Somewhere in your condescending lecture on things every shooter learns when they're 16 you lost touch with the point. You keep saying there isn't much difference but there is a difference, whether you think it's much or not.
so there's no point in +p ammo because the difference is so marginal?
>You keep saying there isn't much difference but there is a difference, whether you think it's much or not.
Sure, there's a difference. A 300+% increase in muzzle energy, like going from a pistol to a rifle cartridge, is enough of a difference to turn a non-lethal hit into a lethal one. A difference of ~10%, like going from one pistol cartridge to another, is not. There is no reasonable scenario where a hit that was non-lethal from a 9mm or .45 would be a lethal if they were hit in the same place with .40S&W.
If you disagree, then explain your reasoning. If you're just arguing because you've tied your ego to your caliber of choice, then continue seething, crying, and calling me names like petulant child. Your choice.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>A difference of ~10%, like going from one pistol cartridge to another, is not.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>The percentage difference in wound volume between the best performing 9mm and the best performing .40S&W is 24%. Through heavy clothing it's only 17%
Wow, my ~10% difference rough estimate wasn't that far off! Thanks for the source, but I remain unconvinced. Like I said before, there is no reasonable scenario where a hit that was non-lethal from a 9mm or .45 would be a lethal if they were hit in the same place with .40S&W or vice versa.
Also, by your chart .45 is better still than .40 so why are you dickriding .40 so hard and not .45 or even something bigger like .44 mag or .50AE?
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Like I said before, there is no reasonable scenario where a hit that was non-lethal from a 9mm or .45 would be a lethal if they were hit in the same place with .40S&W or vice versa.
Miami Dade shot. Paul Harrell successfully recreated a 9mm hollow point failing to penetrate the heart but a .40 S&W hollow point did. Horny critical defense also did.
?t=845
whatever, I carry a 9mm, I just wanted to post that graph
3 months ago
Anonymous
That's a huge difference, and a different anon. Bigger wound break vital organ from further away. Simple enough for you? How is that not a 'reasonable scenario'? I get ~20% more energy for ~20% less capacity. Where am I losing you? >Also, by your chart .45 is better still than .40 so why are you dickriding .40 so hard and not .45
Who says I'm not? .45 has its place, but it needs a gun built for .45. .40 fits 9mm sized guns. >or even something bigger like .44 mag or .50AE?
Completely irrelevant. Sporting cartridges for rangetime fun. Nobody is lugging around a Deagle on their commute.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Okay but we're talking about a wounding potential of maybe 15% alongside a 11% capacity difference and an increased recoil of 14% (using rough power factor estimates) which are all parameters within "tradeoff" territory. At the very least you can't honestly say there's an objective winner between the two calibers.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Agreed. I said higher in the thread that .40 is a sidegrade at best. It's not bad at anything, it just doesn't really have a niche where it excels and no real reason to choose it over anything else. Anything it can do, another common pistol cartridge could do just as well if not better.
https://i.imgur.com/UyeaEUn.jpg
That's a huge difference, and a different anon. Bigger wound break vital organ from further away. Simple enough for you? How is that not a 'reasonable scenario'? I get ~20% more energy for ~20% less capacity. Where am I losing you? >Also, by your chart .45 is better still than .40 so why are you dickriding .40 so hard and not .45
Who says I'm not? .45 has its place, but it needs a gun built for .45. .40 fits 9mm sized guns. >or even something bigger like .44 mag or .50AE?
Completely irrelevant. Sporting cartridges for rangetime fun. Nobody is lugging around a Deagle on their commute.
>Where am I losing you?
Right here: >Bigger wound break vital organ from further away.
Specifically >from further away
No handgun cartridge has the energy to create a bigger permanent wound cavity than what the bullet physically touches. Unless you actually hit the vital organ, you're not breaking it, and if you do actually hit the brain, heart, a major artery, etc. then they're dead in seconds regardless of whether you hit them with a .40 or a .22. It's a matter of shot placement more than what round you use, so shot placement should be the focus.
what job is the 9mm or 45 right for? Why couldn't it be done by 40?
9mm:
Tiny guns, guns you want to shoot fast, very quiet suppressed guns
.45:
Suppressed guns without having to get special ammo, muh two world wars if you're into that kind of thing. >Why couldn't it be done by 40?
Worse recoil than either especially in small guns, doesn't suppress well, won no world wars. It's not that .40 can't do those jobs, but they do them better.
Now you answer the question.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>It's not bad at anything, it just doesn't really have a niche where it excels and no real reason to choose it over anything else
Heavy grain high energy small frame caliber. It is even shorter than 9mm Luger in OAL. In competitions it is heavily preferred for this category because it can shoot 200gr and 220gr at about 750-880 fps in competition pistols in the small frame class (same as 9mm) and outperform 9mm across the board in those competitions. 40sw is a specialist and generalist caliber which blends capacity, energy, bullet weight, recoil and frame size, like 357 sig but a bit more generalist than 357 sig. A 40sw can load gr weight bullets from 80-220 grains, typically 135-180 grains all of which can be supersonic in their hottest loads (including the 180s but just barely).
3 months ago
Anonymous
>No handgun cartridge has the energy to create a bigger permanent wound cavity than what the bullet physically touches.
Okay, so you're going with a statement that is easily disprovable with a Google search. Very nice.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>very quiet suppressed guns
Subsonic 9mm is 380.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>147 grains is 100 grains
one has 50% more bullet per bullet
3 months ago
Anonymous
Most 9mm that is not labeled +p is actually subsonic from EDC length pistols (3-4" bbl) when chrono'd, starting around 124gr and up. And as Harrel already proved most 9mm labeled +p and +p+ are scams. Whereas .40sw performs exceptionally well out of short barrels with off the shelf ammo (and handloads), you can buy 180gr HST JHPs rated and tested to 1010 fps from a 3.5-4.0" bbl for 50 cpr. Hand loads will be stronger for any caliber, but that also means the same for .40sw as well, in which case it is possible to get 1000 fps out of a 200gr in a 4" bbl and 1000 fps from a 180gr out of a 3.25" bbl.
Properly designed 40sw mags hold 1-2 rds less than 9mm across the board for yhe same size mags, in mags that hold 10rds or less, it's only 1 less rd for 40sw. In poorly designed 9mm mags a well designed 40sw mag will actuall hold the same or up to 2rds more than the shitty 9mm mags of the same size. It wasn't until the last 4 years or so that 9mm mags became super efficient in models such as p365, gx4, the hellcat etc. The standard full size 40sw mag is 15 rds, which is usually able to fit in a subcompact frame (Glock, Ruger, some SWs etc). And btw hot .40sw JHP carry loads have changed little in price in a decade due to police duty loads, 65cpr for a full power carry load (400 ft lbs energy in a subcompact gun).
I like 40sw. I don't carry it but it's a neat balance point and can be made competitive with a lot of factory 357 mag loads. It's also pretty good for cops who have to shoot through car doors and windshields.
[...]
>Underwood sells 155gr xtp 40 rated for 1300fps
My primary handload is this. Unlike 9mm it actually gores armadillos noticeably larger than the diameter of the bullet. Other neat one is just a 180gr berry at the standard 1000 fps, it opens extremely wide and maintains really good penetration in gel.
>data from gel tests shows substantially better terminal performance of 40 vs 9 >data from real world shootings confirms 40 is more effective than 9
May I see it? >9mm søys still say that's not real data and you need to look at the right data (no I'm not going to show you it)
Black person that's literally what you're doing right now. I showed you where I got my information. So far all you've got is "dude just trust me bro it's out there you just didn't look in the right place bro"
>It's been posted in this thread you dumb Black person, unlike the source you made up
There's a link in one of my posts you replied to, but I guess closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and going LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU is the level of discourse to be expected from .40 Swishers&Watermelon fanboys.
I was of the opinion that the only people who liked .40 are hood Black folk and low IQ white trash who bought up the cheap police trade in guns because they couldn't afford anything else. You know, the guns that were only cheap because the police ditched them en masse after realizing that .40 is a meme. This thread has not changed my mind.
I have more than a dozen different 9mm handguns. Some of us can afford variety and the ability to pick the right caliber for the job.
https://i.imgur.com/Or4vb4z.jpg
>If I can carry a bigger gun practically, I take a USP loaded with pissin hot 45.
Expert slide is so hot
[...]
how did you get a rail on there?
It's a 4013 TSW, not a proper shorty 40. Once they figured out the Shorty 40 they made a regular production 4013 TSW without the rail which was basically the shorty 40 but without all the PC handfitting and briley bushing and all that fancy stuff. Then later they made that gun but with a rail.
they're milled and tapped, it has a detachable rail
It was an option for agencies ordering them
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1029273620
>tapped
I frickin wish, it's riveted on there and the rivets need to be destroyed to remove it, which I wanna do so I can put some epoxy or something so it's stronger.
>Some of us can afford variety and the ability to pick the right caliber for the job.
What job is .40 the right caliber for? Why couldn't it be done by 9mm or .45?
It's 10mm Auto for unprofessional carriers who don't bother doing their job and getting used to the recoil.
9mm is cheaper and more versatile and produces almost identical wound channel and penetration with proper carry loads. That is, if you were to choose to compromise between energy and quick follow up shots/magazine capacity.
It's a fricking pistol round, it ain't perfect and is a compromise.
Most pistol calibers larger than 9x19 appear to only excel in close fighting, like breath close.
Every projectile with a muzzle velocity lower than 1300 fps and a projectile weight of less than about 200-250 gr is subsonic at 100 yards. The standard calculation is to expect at least 300 fps loss in velocity in the first 100 yards, then BC calculations take over after than, but with low BC projectile in general you still lose about 300 more fps for each extra 100 yards after the first as well. For example, a 22lr has the same supersonic engagement range as a 9mm, for magnum pistols and 10mm in its absolute most niche usage (12 inch barrel protip you often lose major gains after about 12" of bbl length in most pistol cartridges, hot hot loaded, roughly 800-900 ft lbs ME) you can barely squeeze that 2nd hundred yard mark supersonic. Whereas a basic B .223 Remington AR with 55-62gr bullets and a 16" has a minimum supersonic engagement range of about 400-550 yards, and a .300 BLK or .300 HAMR in a 12" bbl will pen all soft pistol armor to at least 25 yards and have a super sonic engagement range beyond 200 yards (also about 1000 ft lbs E @ 100yd).
Everything with a cartridge is a compromise. Diameter versus sectional density, mass versus velocity, power versus controllability, diameter versus capacity, there is give and take. The 40 is pretty much the most powerful, yet controllable round maintaining a high capacity that you can have in a Glock 19 size pistol. It is an excellent cartridge. If you're a decently fit man, I contend of the readily available cartridges the 40 is the most suited cartridge for a 4-in barrel concealed carry pistol. If you drop down to the 3 in barrel concealed carry pistol then I would say the 9 mm is the most appropriate. If you go even smaller then a 380 is the most appropriate.
I wish a guntuber or lucky gunner or someone would do ballistic gel tests on .460 rowland so we could compare it to 10mm. The only test I've seen shot a regular .45 hollow point bullet and it overexpanded into shrapnel
No, its a p80 g21 with KKM barrel and comp, Saurez trigger, Ghost 5lb Patrol connector and 20lb rsa.
I was initially going to do a .460 Rowland, but decided on .45 super/.450smc due to easier compatibility and reliability with normal acp. Plus the fact that I wouldn't trust .460 in a polymer frame, it would beat the shit out of it and pretty sure it would result in a cracked frame at some point.
nice. that’s basically the same reasons I didn’t go to 460. despite being a capable hunting cartridge, it seems the commercial loadings are still skewed towards defense with less than idea penetration. I decided to just load myself and use flat nose FMJs. I want to rebuild the gun with a Rowland v2 damper and a flat firing pin stop so I can use the stock main spring and a recoil spring that cycles acp and super reliably
You don't want to use a stock rsa for .460 in a glock. It will absolutely beat the shit out of the frame.
3 months ago
Anonymous
sorry this was in a 1911. Rowland makes a damper that replaces the guide rod in a 1911. It’s basically a pneumatic variable rate spring that’s only active in the last half inch or so of slide opening/closing. allows you to run a weaker recoil spring and is practically insensitive to slide velocity. Also supposed to help with recoil (even tho 1911 recoil is tame to begin with) as does the flat firing pin stop. the flat stop is more to delay the chamber opening though
No, its a p80 g21 with KKM barrel and comp, Saurez trigger, Ghost 5lb Patrol connector and 20lb rsa.
I was initially going to do a .460 Rowland, but decided on .45 super/.450smc due to easier compatibility and reliability with normal acp. Plus the fact that I wouldn't trust .460 in a polymer frame, it would beat the shit out of it and pretty sure it would result in a cracked frame at some point.
[...]
nice. that’s basically the same reasons I didn’t go to 460. despite being a capable hunting cartridge, it seems the commercial loadings are still skewed towards defense with less than idea penetration. I decided to just load myself and use flat nose FMJs. I want to rebuild the gun with a Rowland v2 damper and a flat firing pin stop so I can use the stock main spring and a recoil spring that cycles acp and super reliably
In theory, that sounds plausible. I had a chance to talk with Luke McIntire, CEO at KKM, for about 20 minutes regarding .45 super or .460 rowland in a g21. His words about .460 in a glock were, and I quote, "I like having all of my fingers and would like to keep them". We even talked about .45 super/smc in the g41 and he pretty much "ehhh" and explained that the barrel wall and chamber are thinner compared to the g21 and recommended against such a conversion due to this. Reason I asked was because I really wanted a longboi and g21L slides and barrels were unobtanium.
3 months ago
Anonymous
not sure how they compare to 1911 barrels, but the 1911 chamber is partially unsupported. some people load acp cases to near-Rowland velocities with no ill effects but really depends on the quality of the brass and primers. the super/smc cases are thicker near the base and some will even use small rifle primers to give it some extra strength. theturkeysopinion and stuckcases are two people that post stuff about loading for the super, you may be able to cook something up, but I’m not entirely familiar with glocks
3 months ago
Anonymous
Super and smc use different primers. SMC uses a rifle primer while super uses a large pistol primer. I believe they both use the same case IIRC.
sorry this was in a 1911. Rowland makes a damper that replaces the guide rod in a 1911. It’s basically a pneumatic variable rate spring that’s only active in the last half inch or so of slide opening/closing. allows you to run a weaker recoil spring and is practically insensitive to slide velocity. Also supposed to help with recoil (even tho 1911 recoil is tame to begin with) as does the flat firing pin stop. the flat stop is more to delay the chamber opening though
I really need to get a 1911. Never had one and my old boomer ass is craving one. I'd do .460 in a good quality 1911.
Statistically, all the common pistol cartridges perform the same. However, .40 is bulkier than 9mm, making it an objectively worse choice if you want to min-max.
>>but but my fantasy LARP demands maximum barrier penetration
If that's what you want 10mm offers even moar powar than .40 without affecting your capacity.
9x25 has great performance through bits of cars without much change in trajectory.
I agree, and I'd like to point out that all min-maxing is larping.
>9mm has more capacity which I'll need in case of multiple attackers blah blah blah
It's all a fantasy.
Anything other than a snubnose is a larp. But hey, it's a free country - larp away
>.22 What, Me Recoil?
>.22 Wild Mangey moron
10mm is for trannies
PtR (Pistol-to-Revolver)?
the pipeline is real
It really is, I had a USP 40, traded it for a 10mm tanfo, then traded that for an original 686. Don't be like me, don't get FPEpilled and get *this* close to buying into 9x25 dillon
t. b***h wrists
>t. ranny
No real performance difference which is why they have to photoshop some slop together for it. Very telling.
>meme gel
Wat
>he fell for the 9meme
.40 is ideal for a compact pistol for carry
>mogs 9mm
>mogs 357 out of a snub
>180-200gr loads on par with .45 ACP +P but have more sectional density
>still comfy to shoot
If I can carry a bigger gun practically, I take a USP loaded with pissin hot 45. If I want to carry a 1 pound gun in my pocket, .380 or .38.
>get a 9mm it's just as good
9mm is literally less terminally effective than .32 or .380
MtFtM
>be low t
>find reddit
>get on estrogen
>reddit says trannies should be armed
>get a 10mm because it's way more powerful and based than 40 S&W shooting the same bullet at the same velocity
>ultra powerful handcannon cartridge forces their body to produce more test and reverse the effects of the estrogen
Many such cases
excellent post
I would not call .40SW comfy to shoot lol - shit tears up your hands like a motherfricker: I always tape up if I'm going to shoot a Limited match with one. Frick using a small handgun that uses that cartridge.
>TIL we should all be carrying Skorpions
post your soft supple hands
You could try working for a day or two. Maybe even for a living? Might help woth the hand problem
Post girly hands. I shoot 180gr HST 400 ft lb loads from a 3.5" barrel EDC.
Happened to my buddy erica
>.40 S&W mogs 357 out of a snub.
>.40 is still comfy to shoot.
>9mm is literally less terminally effective than .32 or .380
The bullshit is strong with this guy.
>being a limpwristed homosexual
>ignores real world data
>wow look at these great terminal ballistics I'm sure there's no way for a larger diameter bullet with more mass and velocity to top t-
>being a limpwristed homosexual
He unironically pulled this card after admitting to being too much of a pussy for 10mm. The irony is palpable.
>hat
I talk shit on 10mm more than most but even it is better than 357 mag, the most overrated handgun cartridge ever
shut your prostitute mouth. .38 special is the greatest handgun cartridge ever made, and .357 is just bubbas pissing hot .38
I don't like 357 but I love me 38s
They exceed in their respective niches
J frames, especially the aluminum ones, are fantastic for carry and the scandium j frames are basically the only 357s that appeal to me
K frames make great target guns. I've never felt a gun that's as nice to shoot as my Clark Custom PPC model 10.
Didn't particularly care for the 357 N or K frames I had though. Too much gun for a caliber underwhelming compared to other calibers that shoot nicely in those size guns.
On paper yes. You get slightly more energy out of specialty handloads. In practice that is outweighed by the fact that .357 Magnums will eat anything as long as OAL is right. In an autoloader you start running into issues with feeding with different bullets and overall lengths as well as spring weight problems with differing loads pretty quickly. The case geometry of .357 also allows for the use of the really slow handgun powders (H110, 2400, etc) which 10mm can't use properly. It is overrated among boomers, though. However 10mm is on it's way to reach the same status with younger generations.
>In an autoloader you start running into issues with feeding with different bullets and overall lengths as well as spring weight problems with differing loads pretty quickly.
Only true in Coonans, the vast majority of bullet types and different commercial .357mag will run through a .357 Desert Eagle no problem, it’ll even feed .38spl from the magazine, but you’ve gotta rack the slide every time like a big deadly spring airsoft gun.
I aimed that more at the 10mm, but that's interesting nonetheless. I wonder if the Deagle brand Deagle's gas operation improves reliablility with different loads.
True, although I'd hazard a guess that both are mostly shot for recreation and at wild beasts these days.
Forgot to include these were shot out of a 3" Glock 27, which has less length from the breech to the muzzle than a snub nose j frame. Imagine worshipping a cartridge that has worse terminal ballistics than a subcompact .40. I don't think it could be more over for 357cels.
You'd probably have to have significant amounts of police requesting hot 10mm hollow points before anything better than 40 comes around. All the good hollow points are optimized for 40 velocities so unless you're shooting 200/220gr at max loads there's not much point to 10mm. 45 ACP/Super+P is neat because you can hit 1000ftlb pretty easily with it without a super long barrel which means in some states you can legally hunt deer with a 1911 but not something of a lesser caliber.
Quickload was saying it should've gone a little faster but the ladder plateaud in velocity at 1300 fps. I was thinking of trying Magnum primers to see if I could bump it up a little and maybe hit 1350. When you don't have a Glock you can load in excess of 40ksi without blowing your gun up. Power pistol is great for hot 40
So you're loading what is essentially a wildcat as there is no +p designation for 40 s&w. In that case, we can include my 180 grain 357 mag loaded to 43000 psi, which goes 1300 fps out of a 2.5" barrel
I'm pretty sure I was still at standard pressure based on the velocity but we can still include yours, it still doesn't mean it's gonna have better terminal ballistics than 40 while being harder to shoot than 40
You just said "in excess of 40k psi" which is 5000 psi above the saami max for 40 cal
I also said I didn't get the performance I expected
I can't find a way to fudge the numbers to get 1300 no matter what. This is the expected velocity for a full size gun with a 4.5" barrel, loaded within a c**t hair of pmax (in practice, you would never load this close to max).
For what it's worth, GRT has always been spot on for me - I always get within 20 fps of predicted velocity if I mind all the details on the calculator.
Quickload shows much lower pressure for power pistol and the velocities for each charge lined up with what I was getting shooting over a chrono and I wasn't getting any pressure signs so I'm pretty sure the pressures were reasonable enough. .357 sig was put in a lot of guns that were designed for .40 with basically no changes other than the barrel so it's not like it's extreme or dangerous to load 40 in excess of 40ksi when the CIP spec for 357 sig is over 44ksi, especially when plenty of people are pushing it well past that successfully.
357 Magnum you can load up to full 62-63ksi rifle pressures without issue in a lot of guns. With a rifle barrel you can easily break 2200fps where you're in a whole other class in terms of terminal ballistics. From a revolver you get a big boom, which does contribute to stopping power, but you aren't gonna get better terminal ballistics than 40
>you can load 357 Mag to 60,000psi in a lot of guns
There's only two revolvers good for 353 Casull, apart from certain bolt actions or Ruger No1, what are you thinking?
GRT and Quickload are both piss for straightwalls. And in the case of GRT, the powder models themselves are mostly dogshit. Only occasionally are they actually correct.
QL was correct about some 44 Mag +P I loaded, but was overpredicting velocit, for my 357 Mag +P++ load(approaching 55,000psi)
You're doing God's work exposing .357 Magnum. I don't understand why people use that shit out of sub-4" barrels. Seems like a total waste.
40 doesn't mog 357 mag out of a snub unless you're comparing a snubnose 357 with a full size duty 40 cal handgun in which case it just barely catches it. Or you're comparing boutique 40 cal to factory 357 mag. Picrel, it's 158 grain hdy xtps out of a 1 7/8" barrel on a lcr
For comparison I have a 40 cal shot string with a 165 grain hollowpoint at an avg of 1050 fps. Nearly identical energy, but it was shot with a glock 22, not some compact firearm with a 3" barrel
>t. Shoots and reloads both 40 and 357
>40 doesn't mog 357 mag out of a snub unless you're comparing a snubnose 357 with a full size duty 40 cal handgun in which case it just barely catches it.
I know, which is why I called him a bullshitter. Look at my comment and look at who I'm responding to who made that bold but dishonest claim.
While its not my preferred round its always sad when a caliber's supply goes down.
>If I can carry a bigger gun practically, I take a USP loaded with pissin hot 45.
Get that Ukrainian flag shit ammo outta here
>rent free
russia is losing btw
Boring war I hope you both kill each other off and the Romanians take over both countries turning eastern Europe into a gypsie hellscape
>mogs 9mm
>mogs 357 out of a snub
Your own chart says otherwise
>get a 10mm because it's way more powerful and based than 40 S&W shooting the same bullet at the same velocity
But it doesn’t shoot at the same velocity
>Mogs 357 out of snub
Chart still says 357 kills moar.
Also 357 is longer so it's more effective, everyone knows this.
10mm would make more sense in a compact but unfortunately there aren't any good options for that configuration. In a full size gun, turbo 45 becomes manageable and mogs 10mm while only being down 1 round.
>buy a model 28
>sell it because it's clapped out and .357 isn't all that powerful
>buy a 3" 65-3
>sell it because it's overweight, underpowered, and low capacity compared to any 45
It takes a lot of revolver with a lot of cartridge to outdo even a 1911 with some nice hot 45. I don't even shoot my .41 magnums much anymore because my .45s do what they can but better. A Smith 69 and USP 45 are the same size and weight and both are capable of sending a 240gr bullet 1250fps but the USP holds 3x the rounds and you automatically get a single action trigger for all but one of those.
sounds like a personal problem
based 41 enjoyer
>Imagine the smell of a proud minmax gay
Statistically, you're fricking wrong and stupid, and using a coping excuse because you probably use 9mm.
>10 mememeter
Please please please please stop breathing.
>Statistically, all the common pistol cartridges perform the same.
Statistically, .38spc is still the most lethal pistol cartridge.
>min-max
Did you homosexuals suddenly forget "optimization"?
Most people who b***h about .40 shoot like these nerds.
lmao
That's not 357 snub recoil, unless that gun is hiding 3 lb somewhere in that frame
The recoil impulse from a gun weighing around 1lb or less is crazy. It feels like getting kicked in the hand by a 3 legged mule. Even if you have a beastmode death grip and can keep the sights on the plate, it feels like the joints in your hand are being violently shaken apart. My hand ached for two weeks after shooting 20 rounds in a session.
Before you accuse me of being a recoillet, I want to add that I would describe 357 mag out of a combat revolver as pleasant. There, now you may call me a recoillet.
>nuh uh, you're lying
I don't know what to tell you, it's a 27oz gun and I'm big enough to grip the fricker. 158gr berry over 13.5gr of AA9.
It took several trips to the range to get to where I can shoot it. I mostly shoot magnums and my 44 mag +P loads kick harder in a 60oz gun.
That is 10 oz heavier than my gun and it looks like a 3" barrel
That's still a snub, the 2" version saves a grand total of 2oz. Weight matters for shooting, but it means frickall for carrying.
Hell, I even slapped wood grips on it.
.40 Swishers & Watermelon
.40 Sensible and Worthwhile
.40 Sincere & Wholehearted
.40 Sublime and Wholesome
What can it do that 9mm, .45, or really any other common pistol cartridge couldn't do?
everything
Such as?
Be regularly available to purchase in every singe ammo buying panic.
>participating in ammo buying panics
>not just stocking up while it's cheap and not even noticing that an ammo buying panic ever happened
Ur mom
more powerful than both. higher capacity than .45
>more powerful than both
Does that mean it can kill something that 9mm or .45 couldn't kill?
>caliber war threads
(You) on the left cartridge autists on the right
it should've lost to .41 Active Erection
10mm mogs tho
performance-wise sure, but the name's not nearly as cool
Every time I remember that .41 is dead, I also die inside.
>10mm short
shiggy diggy, my niggy
have fun with your 10mm that has been downloaded to .40 specs
>inb4 muh hand load
you wont
I do, but in the end you realize you should have bought a .357 Magnum.
I can only get 8 shots of 357 at most though.
Weird, I get 11.
Post gun. I'm not accusing you of anything but what you said sounds cool.
>10mm is bad because it's just .40S&W
This is not an argument in favor of .40S&W. You realize that, right?
It's not a matter of being bad. It's a matter of not offering anything over .40 Smart & White unless you go for $3/round custom ammo that's never in stock. Every 10mm fan I've ever known denounces every commercially available 10mm load. .40 Sneed'em & Waste'm is perfectly balanced for dealing with human problems. 10mm's niche is handloaders and Alaskans. They're both good in their intended roles.
The argument for both 10mm and .357 is handloading. Most commercial loads don't offer any benefits over .40 whatever other cartridge, sure, but the potential for hot handloads is huge. My .357 wadcutters made from melted down wheel weights and loaded a little overzealously while somewhat intoxicated that I keep in the Ziploc bag labeled "FOR RUGER ONLY" are going to perform literally off your charts.
Any serious shooter who doesn't handload is a mouthbreather. If you don't handload just shut the frick up and shoot 9mm anyway
Holy autism, batman
>.40 Smart & White
>caliber notoriously popular amongst melanated individuals
Anon, I...
>>inb4 muh hand load
>you wont
Not everyone is a Black person like you. Handloading for pistol rounds is super easy
I still have yet to receive an adequate explanation as to why we don't have 43X / 48 style guns in .40S&W or 10MM.
It's such a snappy cartridge, it hurts my wrists
Listen here little baby. You're gonna get a lot of hurtful and degrading comments, but that ain't what I'm about. Let me just say, you are perfect the way you are. You hear me sugar? PERFECT. Don't ever change. You deserve anything and everything you want. Stay safe for me, baby girl.
>Mfw thinking of you hurting
some roastie got shot in the chest with .40 (probably by her boyfriend but she pretended not to know) and her breast implant stopped it
But .40 has so much slide velocity, anon.
Everyone is happy he died
Doesn't .40 S&W have better self defense loads?
Maybe in the 90's
It still does, no 9mm cartridge even 9mm +P+ can come close to high end .40, there’s plenty low end .40 since cops still struggled with the recoil
.40 is pretty much a dead round
nobody wants it anymore and nobody is making guns for it
not even SIG, one of its biggest supporters, cares about it
the only thing keeping it alive is the 15 minutes of fame 10mm is getting, because it can also shoot the cheaper .40 "for training"
when the spotlight fades on 10mm (and it is because no one is buying guns and ammo) the .40 will become a niche round like .357 sig
People say this all the time as if the round is on life support, but it's still ubiquitous everywhere.
>it's still ubiquitous everywhere
The used GUNS in .40 are ubiquitous everywhere because every police agency sold them off overnight but .40 ammo is not what it was even back during the 2016 panic. It's notably less common than just a few years ago. I have 2 lgs that don't have any .40 ammo at all anymore.
.40 is unpopular now because the average gun owner decided on 9mm or .45, but real autists know that .40 chumps .45. Also .357 sig needs to come back because it's uncircumcised as God intended.
>".40 chumps .45."
But not 10mm, .45 super, .460 rowland, etc. I just don't see the point in investing in .40, you do you though.
>".357 sig needs to come back."
Agreed. Also its too bad that 9x25 dillon never caught on.
none of those calibers fit into a 9mm-sized gun you fricking idiot. did everyone forget about frame size???
>did everyone forget about frame size???
.357 SIG fits in a 9mm frame, however, if I need something to fit in a 9mm frame then I'll use 9mm.
wasn't stuffing .40 into 9mm frames the reason glocknade was a meme?
It's also the reason why "muh snappy recoil" is a meme. .40 out of a gun with a frame designed for .40 and not a recycled 9mm frame isn't snappy at all.
my g19 feels like a .22 after shooting my vp40
Carry 9mm if you want price and capacity. Carry 10mm if you want muh stopping powah. Anything in between those two is just the worst of both worlds, bulkier and more expensive than 9mm without being significantly better.
Those are literally the only two semi-auto pistol cartridges that should exist in modern usage besides maybe .380 for subcompacts and 5.7 for autists.
"It's inferior because capacity" is a thing when you're comparing something like a 1911and a glock 17 and your round count more than doubles
It's much less of a thing when you're comparing a glock 22 vs a glock 17 - do you really think 16 rounds vs 18 is gonna make a difference?
I think we can all agree that .40 S&W 1911s are unholy abominations.
I was using a generic 1911 (unspecified caliber) as a point of comparison for a more relevant comparison
They’re pretty nice to shoot actually
I have 2 and I love them both dearly. I love them equally to my 45s.
Yeah, but I hate having a million types of ammo out there. I wish the market would consolidate on fewer standard calibers, then make those cheaper and better thanks to the economy of scale. Yes, maybe .40 is a little more perfectly optimal in a full frame handgun than 9mm is, but I'd like to ask you the reverse question--is the stopping power between .40 and 9mm really gonna make a difference in any real world scenario you are likely to end up in? I think .380, 9mm, and 10mm cover all your bases for regular semi-auto handgun carry and everyone else should take their other snowflake calibers and frick off.
I think the same thing about rifles too by the way. Your fricking 6.5 Creedmoor or 7mm Remington or whatever other flavor of the week bullshit people are all getting their hunting rifles in nowadays are not better enough than .308 for the real-world applications you're using them for to justify having 50 different types of ammo for the same goddamn purpose. Some of the huge magnum rifle rounds have their place when you're shooting huge game or at very long ranges, but other than that just carry .308 and shut the frick up.
The existence of 40 does not threaten the existence of your favorite caliber. In 40 years I'll still be handloading 40 cal. As long as somebody makes 40 caliber bullets I don't care whatsoever about what happens to the market.
homosexual that doesnt like the fun and whimsy of all the different cartridges of the world
>"Yeah, but I hate having a million types of ammo out there. I wish the market would consolidate on fewer standard calibers"
I wonder where the "Frick Ya Mudda" guy is when we need him. If it was up to morons like this we would all be stuck using 8mm Lebel and .38 long rimfire.
They make double-stack 1911's now, so even then, it's not as much of an excuse as it was 20 years ago. You can easily and cheaply get a 12 round 1911, such as the Rock Island Armory Standard GI which has a 10 round and 14 round magazine.
.40 Superb and Wonderful
Based, I love seeing .40 start to gain more traction again. 9mmgays and .380sois get triggered anytime the superior .40 gets mentioned. Sorry you guys shoot wimpy yuro calibers that will get you killed. .40 gives greater HP performance that isn't dependent on barrel length or velocity, much greater energy, marginally more recoil, more practical than a 10mm, and only two (2) less rounds than 9mm. AND it fits in medium frames.
So yeah, .40 is based and the sooner you realize this the better.
Hits hard, points great. Based Hi-Pow in 40 cal.
Forgot to add, Shorty-Forty. Makes the girls horny.
need me a shawty fawty
>Based Hi-Pow in 40 cal.
Aren't those known to beat themselves to death?
>I've loaded 165 grain 40 cal bullets going 1300 fps out of a 4" barrel
bullshit
Disregard for personal safety leads to muzzle velocities some might consider... unnatural.
I've handloaded 165gr 40 s&w at 1450fps lol
yeah
Flatnosed .380. Frick all that hallowpoint meme shit. It will work.
Bitchmade 10mm compromise that has no right to exist being an abomination.
Significantly faster follow up shots over full power 10mm loads, on the order of emptying a 15 rd mag about 3 full seconds faster than 10mm with the same accuracy.
So, on one hand, you get a big pistol to get better stopping power in fewer shots. On the other, if you want to min-max in the direction of damage, you should have a .460 Rowland.
Meh, .450smc is more than adequate
I disagree, flat nose .45acp is more effective. Specifically, 1000fps flat nose 45acp is the best because it can still be suppressed while delivering over 511 foot pounds of force.
Most handgun cartridges have a similar effect on the human body within common engagement ranges. Using any of them is fine but there's little reason to choose one over the other. Availability and cost are the most important factors.
>thinks availability or cost are a concern when reloading and casting are a thing
>ignores real world shooting data and terminal ballistics testing and development
>refuses to use a better caliber because he can't get plinking loads for 20cpr at walmart
the absolute 9mm cope
Real world shooting data, as in statistics based on real world shootings involving human beings and not gelatin blocks, show that most common handgun cartridges have a similar effect when it comes to killing said human being with the differences being within standard deviation.
>use .22lr
>it's the same as .357 magnum
>it's the same as .50ae
Yeah fricking right. Bullshit
You're talking about extremes, I'm referring to the average. 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 10mm, .357 etc. How many shootings do you think involve .50AE? lol
.45acp is king, bigger the hole means quickest death
Why do so many of you morons struggle with the concept of balancing competing requirements?
>hurr durr if you want power just use 10mm
>hurr durr if you want follow up shots and capacity just use 9mm
I want an optimal mix of both. .40 S&W is an engineered solution that didn’t use video game logic.
>I want an optimal mix of both.
The problem is you're not getting a mix of both. It's not actually better at killing things than any other common handgun cartridge, and don't you dare come back with "but muh bigger number" immediately after accusing everyone else of using video game logic.
You lose the higher capacity, low recoil, and cheap ammo of 9mm and get nothing in return. You lose the easy suppression, significantly less snappy recoil impulse, and massive hollowpoint expansion of .45 and get nothing in return. At very best, .40 is a sidegrade, and at worst it's an unhappy medium worst of both worlds compromise. If you already have a .40 and like it, that's fine and dandy, but for someone buying their first handgun there is no good reason to pick .40.
.40 has more power and better penetration than 9 and .45. It is less powerful than hot 10mm loads but most loads are the same and .40 fits into smaller handguns. If anything, 10mm is the superfluous option out of these 4.
>.40 has more power
There's that video game logic. Humans don't have hit points. It may be more power on paper, but it's not more by a significant enough margin to translate into being more lethal. Rifles are more lethal than pistols, but that's because they have several times more power than a handgun cartridge. For instance, .223 (a relatively small rifle round) has about three times the muzzle energy of .40 S&W. That's enough of a difference to make a difference. The difference in muzzle energy between 9mm or .45 and .40 S&W is a few percent at most. That's not enough of a difference to make a difference.
>and better penetration
I didn't know if that was true or not, so I looked it up here
>https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
and it looks like on average it isn't much of a difference. That might be more of an issue if 9mm or .45 were known to underpenetrate, but they're really not. By the charts in that link, all but the unusually light bullets for 9mm and .45, the ones made specifically to not penetrate as much, consistently meet or exceed the FBI standards. Hell, even some modern .32 ACP can exceed the FBI standard.
so there's no point in +p ammo because the difference is so marginal?
Yeah.
Maybe. Sometimes +P is enough extra speed to get better penetration when regular ones won’t
Depending on the material properties of the projectile, higher velocity can result in faster expansion and lower penetration as a result
In extreme cases it could cause a projectile that wasn't going to expand at all to start expanding, causing dramatically less penetration
This is also true. I was thinking something like a 115gr gold dot doesn’t meet penetration minimums but the +P does.
I think 115gr JHP out of a 5 inch can under penetrate if it goes too fast, expansion too great to meet FBI minimums while through a shorter barrel with less velocity it doesn’t expand as much and meets FBI standards
>Humans don't have hit points.
Don't fricking strawman me homosexual. Somewhere in your condescending lecture on things every shooter learns when they're 16 you lost touch with the point. You keep saying there isn't much difference but there is a difference, whether you think it's much or not.
>Yeah
Yeah, you don't get it. We know.
>You keep saying there isn't much difference but there is a difference, whether you think it's much or not.
Sure, there's a difference. A 300+% increase in muzzle energy, like going from a pistol to a rifle cartridge, is enough of a difference to turn a non-lethal hit into a lethal one. A difference of ~10%, like going from one pistol cartridge to another, is not. There is no reasonable scenario where a hit that was non-lethal from a 9mm or .45 would be a lethal if they were hit in the same place with .40S&W.
If you disagree, then explain your reasoning. If you're just arguing because you've tied your ego to your caliber of choice, then continue seething, crying, and calling me names like petulant child. Your choice.
>A difference of ~10%, like going from one pistol cartridge to another, is not.
>The percentage difference in wound volume between the best performing 9mm and the best performing .40S&W is 24%. Through heavy clothing it's only 17%
Wow, my ~10% difference rough estimate wasn't that far off! Thanks for the source, but I remain unconvinced. Like I said before, there is no reasonable scenario where a hit that was non-lethal from a 9mm or .45 would be a lethal if they were hit in the same place with .40S&W or vice versa.
Also, by your chart .45 is better still than .40 so why are you dickriding .40 so hard and not .45 or even something bigger like .44 mag or .50AE?
>Like I said before, there is no reasonable scenario where a hit that was non-lethal from a 9mm or .45 would be a lethal if they were hit in the same place with .40S&W or vice versa.
Miami Dade shot. Paul Harrell successfully recreated a 9mm hollow point failing to penetrate the heart but a .40 S&W hollow point did. Horny critical defense also did.
?t=845
whatever, I carry a 9mm, I just wanted to post that graph
That's a huge difference, and a different anon. Bigger wound break vital organ from further away. Simple enough for you? How is that not a 'reasonable scenario'? I get ~20% more energy for ~20% less capacity. Where am I losing you?
>Also, by your chart .45 is better still than .40 so why are you dickriding .40 so hard and not .45
Who says I'm not? .45 has its place, but it needs a gun built for .45. .40 fits 9mm sized guns.
>or even something bigger like .44 mag or .50AE?
Completely irrelevant. Sporting cartridges for rangetime fun. Nobody is lugging around a Deagle on their commute.
Okay but we're talking about a wounding potential of maybe 15% alongside a 11% capacity difference and an increased recoil of 14% (using rough power factor estimates) which are all parameters within "tradeoff" territory. At the very least you can't honestly say there's an objective winner between the two calibers.
Agreed. I said higher in the thread that .40 is a sidegrade at best. It's not bad at anything, it just doesn't really have a niche where it excels and no real reason to choose it over anything else. Anything it can do, another common pistol cartridge could do just as well if not better.
>Where am I losing you?
Right here:
>Bigger wound break vital organ from further away.
Specifically
>from further away
No handgun cartridge has the energy to create a bigger permanent wound cavity than what the bullet physically touches. Unless you actually hit the vital organ, you're not breaking it, and if you do actually hit the brain, heart, a major artery, etc. then they're dead in seconds regardless of whether you hit them with a .40 or a .22. It's a matter of shot placement more than what round you use, so shot placement should be the focus.
9mm:
Tiny guns, guns you want to shoot fast, very quiet suppressed guns
.45:
Suppressed guns without having to get special ammo, muh two world wars if you're into that kind of thing.
>Why couldn't it be done by 40?
Worse recoil than either especially in small guns, doesn't suppress well, won no world wars. It's not that .40 can't do those jobs, but they do them better.
Now you answer the question.
>It's not bad at anything, it just doesn't really have a niche where it excels and no real reason to choose it over anything else
Heavy grain high energy small frame caliber. It is even shorter than 9mm Luger in OAL. In competitions it is heavily preferred for this category because it can shoot 200gr and 220gr at about 750-880 fps in competition pistols in the small frame class (same as 9mm) and outperform 9mm across the board in those competitions. 40sw is a specialist and generalist caliber which blends capacity, energy, bullet weight, recoil and frame size, like 357 sig but a bit more generalist than 357 sig. A 40sw can load gr weight bullets from 80-220 grains, typically 135-180 grains all of which can be supersonic in their hottest loads (including the 180s but just barely).
>No handgun cartridge has the energy to create a bigger permanent wound cavity than what the bullet physically touches.
Okay, so you're going with a statement that is easily disprovable with a Google search. Very nice.
>very quiet suppressed guns
Subsonic 9mm is 380.
>147 grains is 100 grains
one has 50% more bullet per bullet
Most 9mm that is not labeled +p is actually subsonic from EDC length pistols (3-4" bbl) when chrono'd, starting around 124gr and up. And as Harrel already proved most 9mm labeled +p and +p+ are scams. Whereas .40sw performs exceptionally well out of short barrels with off the shelf ammo (and handloads), you can buy 180gr HST JHPs rated and tested to 1010 fps from a 3.5-4.0" bbl for 50 cpr. Hand loads will be stronger for any caliber, but that also means the same for .40sw as well, in which case it is possible to get 1000 fps out of a 200gr in a 4" bbl and 1000 fps from a 180gr out of a 3.25" bbl.
>mix of both
But you don't get the capacity of the 9mm, you just get a weaker 10mm lol
Properly designed 40sw mags hold 1-2 rds less than 9mm across the board for yhe same size mags, in mags that hold 10rds or less, it's only 1 less rd for 40sw. In poorly designed 9mm mags a well designed 40sw mag will actuall hold the same or up to 2rds more than the shitty 9mm mags of the same size. It wasn't until the last 4 years or so that 9mm mags became super efficient in models such as p365, gx4, the hellcat etc. The standard full size 40sw mag is 15 rds, which is usually able to fit in a subcompact frame (Glock, Ruger, some SWs etc). And btw hot .40sw JHP carry loads have changed little in price in a decade due to police duty loads, 65cpr for a full power carry load (400 ft lbs energy in a subcompact gun).
.40 Shit & Wipe
I like 40sw. I don't carry it but it's a neat balance point and can be made competitive with a lot of factory 357 mag loads. It's also pretty good for cops who have to shoot through car doors and windshields.
>Underwood sells 155gr xtp 40 rated for 1300fps
My primary handload is this. Unlike 9mm it actually gores armadillos noticeably larger than the diameter of the bullet. Other neat one is just a 180gr berry at the standard 1000 fps, it opens extremely wide and maintains really good penetration in gel.
Other than less recoil what else does it offer over the 10mm?
vaxxed 9meme transisters, our response?
>data from gel tests shows substantially better terminal performance of 40 vs 9
>data from real world shootings confirms 40 is more effective than 9
May I see it?
>9mm søys still say that's not real data and you need to look at the right data (no I'm not going to show you it)
Black person that's literally what you're doing right now. I showed you where I got my information. So far all you've got is "dude just trust me bro it's out there you just didn't look in the right place bro"
It's been posted in this thread you dumb Black person, unlike the source you made up
>It's been posted in this thread you dumb Black person, unlike the source you made up
There's a link in one of my posts you replied to, but I guess closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and going LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU is the level of discourse to be expected from .40 Swishers&Watermelon fanboys.
I was of the opinion that the only people who liked .40 are hood Black folk and low IQ white trash who bought up the cheap police trade in guns because they couldn't afford anything else. You know, the guns that were only cheap because the police ditched them en masse after realizing that .40 is a meme. This thread has not changed my mind.
I have more than a dozen different 9mm handguns. Some of us can afford variety and the ability to pick the right caliber for the job.
Expert slide is so hot
It's a 4013 TSW, not a proper shorty 40. Once they figured out the Shorty 40 they made a regular production 4013 TSW without the rail which was basically the shorty 40 but without all the PC handfitting and briley bushing and all that fancy stuff. Then later they made that gun but with a rail.
>tapped
I frickin wish, it's riveted on there and the rivets need to be destroyed to remove it, which I wanna do so I can put some epoxy or something so it's stronger.
>Some of us can afford variety and the ability to pick the right caliber for the job.
What job is .40 the right caliber for? Why couldn't it be done by 9mm or .45?
what job is the 9mm or 45 right for? Why couldn't it be done by 40?
>Lemme just make up a bunch of things and claim they're the truth
Ok
how did you get a rail on there?
they're milled and tapped, it has a detachable rail
It was an option for agencies ordering them
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1029273620
It's 10mm Auto for unprofessional carriers who don't bother doing their job and getting used to the recoil.
9mm is cheaper and more versatile and produces almost identical wound channel and penetration with proper carry loads. That is, if you were to choose to compromise between energy and quick follow up shots/magazine capacity.
It's a fricking pistol round, it ain't perfect and is a compromise.
Most pistol calibers larger than 9x19 appear to only excel in close fighting, like breath close.
moron
Every projectile with a muzzle velocity lower than 1300 fps and a projectile weight of less than about 200-250 gr is subsonic at 100 yards. The standard calculation is to expect at least 300 fps loss in velocity in the first 100 yards, then BC calculations take over after than, but with low BC projectile in general you still lose about 300 more fps for each extra 100 yards after the first as well. For example, a 22lr has the same supersonic engagement range as a 9mm, for magnum pistols and 10mm in its absolute most niche usage (12 inch barrel protip you often lose major gains after about 12" of bbl length in most pistol cartridges, hot hot loaded, roughly 800-900 ft lbs ME) you can barely squeeze that 2nd hundred yard mark supersonic. Whereas a basic B .223 Remington AR with 55-62gr bullets and a 16" has a minimum supersonic engagement range of about 400-550 yards, and a .300 BLK or .300 HAMR in a 12" bbl will pen all soft pistol armor to at least 25 yards and have a super sonic engagement range beyond 200 yards (also about 1000 ft lbs E @ 100yd).
parabellum is kino
imagine these but in .40 as allah intended
least gay s&w
I've been carrying .40 for 11 years and I have no idea why anyon3 has an issue with it
Guys who don't shoot 10mm hate it because it's not 10mm.
>regular acp brass will hold over 40k psi safely
Citation is required
Everything with a cartridge is a compromise. Diameter versus sectional density, mass versus velocity, power versus controllability, diameter versus capacity, there is give and take. The 40 is pretty much the most powerful, yet controllable round maintaining a high capacity that you can have in a Glock 19 size pistol. It is an excellent cartridge. If you're a decently fit man, I contend of the readily available cartridges the 40 is the most suited cartridge for a 4-in barrel concealed carry pistol. If you drop down to the 3 in barrel concealed carry pistol then I would say the 9 mm is the most appropriate. If you go even smaller then a 380 is the most appropriate.
for me it’s 450 smc out of a 1911
Based .45 super appreciator
is that the Rowland conversion? I want to get their v2 damper so I can shoot everything
I wish a guntuber or lucky gunner or someone would do ballistic gel tests on .460 rowland so we could compare it to 10mm. The only test I've seen shot a regular .45 hollow point bullet and it overexpanded into shrapnel
nice. that’s basically the same reasons I didn’t go to 460. despite being a capable hunting cartridge, it seems the commercial loadings are still skewed towards defense with less than idea penetration. I decided to just load myself and use flat nose FMJs. I want to rebuild the gun with a Rowland v2 damper and a flat firing pin stop so I can use the stock main spring and a recoil spring that cycles acp and super reliably
You don't want to use a stock rsa for .460 in a glock. It will absolutely beat the shit out of the frame.
sorry this was in a 1911. Rowland makes a damper that replaces the guide rod in a 1911. It’s basically a pneumatic variable rate spring that’s only active in the last half inch or so of slide opening/closing. allows you to run a weaker recoil spring and is practically insensitive to slide velocity. Also supposed to help with recoil (even tho 1911 recoil is tame to begin with) as does the flat firing pin stop. the flat stop is more to delay the chamber opening though
No, its a p80 g21 with KKM barrel and comp, Saurez trigger, Ghost 5lb Patrol connector and 20lb rsa.
I was initially going to do a .460 Rowland, but decided on .45 super/.450smc due to easier compatibility and reliability with normal acp. Plus the fact that I wouldn't trust .460 in a polymer frame, it would beat the shit out of it and pretty sure it would result in a cracked frame at some point.
I've seen fudd lore that steel frames crack more with .460 than polymer, since polymer flexes more under strain. idk how bullshit that is though
In theory, that sounds plausible. I had a chance to talk with Luke McIntire, CEO at KKM, for about 20 minutes regarding .45 super or .460 rowland in a g21. His words about .460 in a glock were, and I quote, "I like having all of my fingers and would like to keep them". We even talked about .45 super/smc in the g41 and he pretty much "ehhh" and explained that the barrel wall and chamber are thinner compared to the g21 and recommended against such a conversion due to this. Reason I asked was because I really wanted a longboi and g21L slides and barrels were unobtanium.
not sure how they compare to 1911 barrels, but the 1911 chamber is partially unsupported. some people load acp cases to near-Rowland velocities with no ill effects but really depends on the quality of the brass and primers. the super/smc cases are thicker near the base and some will even use small rifle primers to give it some extra strength. theturkeysopinion and stuckcases are two people that post stuff about loading for the super, you may be able to cook something up, but I’m not entirely familiar with glocks
Super and smc use different primers. SMC uses a rifle primer while super uses a large pistol primer. I believe they both use the same case IIRC.
I really need to get a 1911. Never had one and my old boomer ass is craving one. I'd do .460 in a good quality 1911.
I just learned about .40 super and do want!
t. used to want .400 corbon, not any more.
Do it.
Sup
I'd really like something in .440corbon, but .40super does look tempting.
.40 is for men
10mm is for redditors
9mm is for men who are afraid of change
.45 is for absolute fricking morons or super sekrit elite oper8rs
.357 sig is for the ascended
>.357 sig is for the ascended
>mogged by 9x25
Re-evalute your choices. Also, proprietary rounds are for autistic morons.
>9x25 dillon
.357 sig for redditors
>for redditors
Dillon was designed 6 years before sig. 9x25 ballistics are superior as well. Wish I wasn't a poorgay, or I'd build a Dillon gun.
>proprietary rounds
wdhmbt?
maybe if you don’t reload and are also moronic
9chads, 40cucks can't stop malding over our superiority
9mm parabellum bullet
My takeaway is that .40 is fine, and will get the job done. Just use whatever you feel comfortable using.
>he can't dispatch a rowdy youth about to culturally enrich him with a 9 millimeme
You deserve it.
nine
forty
(better)
make mine bottlenecked
More like .40 suck & dick
ill suck your dick you fricking homosexual. how about that huh?
.40 smug & winning
Underwood 200gr hard cast .40 isn't even supersonic lmao. .40 cucks are you alright? How do you cope with this?
>are you alright? How do you cope with this?
Why is 147gr 9mm subsonic?