>What an amazing ammo advert.
No kidding. Pretty amusing how the guy got his guts turned into goo, and his main takeaway seems to be "damn, that was some fricking good ammo".
Watch this
The principal of "a spicy .22 will do more to your opponent than whatever the frick caliber in the dirt" applies, and if your strategy banks on not missing, because follow up shots are for noobs that weren't using a jacobs, you need to read more case studies, and play fewer RPGs. Or listen to podcasts/audiobooks, and do both.
He's not dead, just horrifically wounded, even though the round went through just about all of his intestines and lung.
If I shoot someone I want them to die.
If this guy had been hit with a 9MM hollowpoint or a 10MM in the same place, he'd be dead.
So glad there is so much more interest in this round now. But man does that image look fricked up. Why does all the real world application data for this round have to come from shit with the worst optics though?
This is the first time I've seen someone claim any kind of gut shot with a handgun can kill instantly.
Then you must not know many paramedics, I was good friends with a paramedic for a while. We get a lot of gunshot wounds in South Africa and if I remember right we have the highest trauma rate per capita in the world, he told me that 9mm vs .45 auto doesn't tend to make a big difference, but that in his experience if you were wounded with any sort of ball ammo (which makes up most of our black market ammo in SA) and it didn't hit your vitals you would probably make it, he said that any torso shot with hollow point 9mm will usually kill you. Good defensive ammo will mangle your innards to a level that most people don't seem to fully understand, unless it happens inside a hospital you are probably going to die.
>The fact that people like you exist is a big part of why I own guns
Seriously, I just want to use my guns to plink and have the peace of mind knowing I can defend myself. I don't want to kill anybody and I hate getting grouped in with the people who fantasize about getting a COD killstreak irl.
Ain't assmad about anything, you israelites can't handle the fact that this fricking guy got gutshot longitudinally and survived because the special sauce FiVe SevEn cartridge is only really good at causing immediate cavitation and nothing else, which is why literally nobody uses it professionally in the US.
If it was half as good at literally anything the gays here think it is, it'd be the sidearm of choice for all the three letter agencies and more.
So why is it not?
The FN 57 has had reliability issues in the past, and weird ergos. Finally Ruger got things rolling again with the Ruger 57.
That the P90 has had nigh nothing but praise since it's introduction in the 90s speaks to it's exellence, provided the firearm it's coming from is more than decent.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Praise from who? Who is still using it?
https://i.imgur.com/ydgmdei.png
the secret service use P90's dont they?
As far as I am aware they have been dropped out of USSS service literally in 2011.
If you have information that says otherwise, by all means.
2 years ago
Anonymous
i cant find any sources otherwise, I did find a schizo on youtube saying the IRS bought some P90s this year though
2 years ago
Anonymous
From what I understand, the USSS encountered some issues with them (something either service or reliability related) and was met with little service from FN.
Go figure.
Apparently they switched over to MP7s and compact 5.56 carbines, although some may still be hangers on.
I remember In 2014 or 2015 someone who worked at a registered government contract firearms destruction facility in Maryland or Virginia was caught with a three-position USSS P90 in his house, they had scrapped a quantity of them and apparently he had managed to smuggle one out of the facility and hid it.
2 years ago
Anonymous
S-sauce?
2 years ago
Anonymous
https://sofrep.com/news/secret-service-goes-gun-shopping/
"In mid-March 2016, the Secret Service started shopping for a firearm to replace or supplement its fleet of H&K MP5s (below) and FNP90s (top)."
The link for the federal RFQ is in there, specifying compact 5.56 SBRs, with a max height of 8", presumably for concealment beneath a coat under the armpit or something.
>if I need to shoot someone, I don't want it to be a absolutely necessary last resort I choose after exhausting all available options, I want to just grievously wound them but leave them alive and in horrible agony and still potentially capable of being a threat, but not dead because that's going too far.
This is you.
You are a joke.
What I said: "If your number 1 concern for your carry ammo is maximum bloodshed instead of effectiveness in a self-defense situation, you're a psychopathic moron."
What you heard: "Nobody should ever die and I would never shoot someone more than once even if they were still a threat - not because I want to avoid unnecessary carnage, but because I relish their cries of agony as they lay wounded."
Ok buddy
Somehow you think "shoot to kill" specifically for the purpose of ending a threat in a self defense situation is "maximum bloodshed", because apparently you're a fricking moron.
If you think "shoot to wound" is a viable and reasonable tactic, you're fricking moronic, buddy.
Maximum bloodshed is effectiveness you fricking idiot. Unless you hit the CNS you incapacitate via blood loss depriving oxygen to the brain. The more they bleed the quicker that happens. Death is also a side effect of bleeding more.
Get off your fricking high horse and go back. You aren’t wanted here.
No, he wouldn't. He took a bullet to the belly and some of the fragments ended up in his lung. Please tell me how you think any other caliber would have magically gone through his central nervous system or caused more bleeding than he already had.
Did you gloss over "supine postion" you fricking idiot?
The round hit him in the stomach, went through his intestine, fragmented into his lungs, and HE STILL SURVIVED.
9mm or 10mm would have continued through the chest cavity because they both carry literally three times the mass, which is what penetrates soft tissue.
Either would have still ruptured his intestine, punctured his diaphragm, tore through his lung, and probably continued up into his heart, neck, or even exited the body and impacted his head.
Penetration is dictated primarily by ballistic coefficient and velocity and also by bullet stability
Mass as an independent factor has a relatively small role in penetration (it is a component of ballistic coefficient, but is only half of the equation)
>and also by bullet stability
Which is why 5.7 yaws almost immediately upon entering a soft target, fragments, and causes massive wounding in a very limited tract, as was clearly demonstrated in this situation.
Election tourists like you should be drawn and quartered
Reddit gays like you should go back to guzzling cum from a bucket.
Not to be nitpicky, but it's not BC - it's sectional density. BC results from sectional density and good BC usually means you get a faster and typically more stable projectile but sectional density is the thing that meaningfully affects the pen along with mass. 5.7 wadcutters would be poor penetrators relative to a spitzer projectile of the same material, even with velocities and masses identical.
>If this guy had been hit with a 9MM hollowpoint or a 10MM in the same place, he'd be dead.
Pistols have like a 30-40% of incapacitating on a first shot statistically, so no, he probably wouldn't
He survived because he got medical care ASAP. There's a lot of gang members surviving multiple gunshot wound even in the head in ghetto Chicago, as long as they get medical treatment ASAP they have a lot higher chance of surviving critical gunshot wound.
have a nice day and do us a favor zoomer moron >so desperate to put your dick in something you decide to start calling a man's ass 'bussy' to cope with it
Saw a guy shot in a similiar way with a lead round nose .38 spl. Shooter was on his back and he shot him right around there. Guybwas ambulatory and talking at first and then coded on his way to the helicopter, had to turn around and drive him to the hospital, strapped him to the lukas machine thing and the dude died at the hospital. The CPR machine pumped his guts out. Turned him to mashed potatoes
Is 5.7 the current "eat the bugs" of the gun world? If it felt at all organic I wouldn't think twice about it but it really seems like shills are out in fricking force pushing 5.7 for the last year or so and very specifically within the last few months.
It's finally gotten into the hands of all kinds of small time gun tubers, and they have yet to find a major issue with it. Two different channels (can't remember which) had it jam on like the first shot, cleared it, and proceeded to have no subsequent issues. However, no one's put forward the green to do a 1,000 round tourture test, or anything yet.
Here's some
2 years ago
Anonymous
>However, no one's put forward the green to do a 1,000 round tourture test, or anything yet.
Yeah seriously, this was a $55 video recording for a drum dump https://youtu.be/NGSKjuUVq74?t=286
2 years ago
Anonymous
Amazing! That's the first I've heard of the DRM A-80 (looks futuristic as frick). Well, we know PSA can make a drum mag that doesn't suck, and that counts for a lot.
That video literally dropped after this thread started. Happening times for this cartridge.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Wound cavity fetish aside the best thing about watching people shoot that round is how flat the gun stays.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I'm not sure what you mean by the fetish thing, but yea. One more of the 9mm's strengths it doubles way down on is just how easy quick, accurate follow up shots can be because of the low recoil.
i shill it because i want more data on it. more anons who buy it are more likely to use it in self defense hence more data. otherwise i love my ps90 and want a five-seven
Lets be real, the people buying Ruger and PSA 5.7s aren't shooting their guns enough for the difference in ammo cost from 9mm to matter.
As I said earlier in the thread >It's always been a great round, and pandemic scarcity and cost of 9mm probably made the "but the price, if you can even find it" argument a bit closer to moot.
So how do the prices stack up, now that every karen and her dog are buying 9mms and all the ammo they can to practice with. Besides maybe have one of both so you have options when you go to the store last minute because of a major happening.
Like a 2011 chambered in 9mm, or that new 1911 that takes glock mags, again, in 9mm. Why 9mm 1911s? Because as far as I know, the Ruger 57 can be gripped and slide released in the same way.
Why do I get the feeling you'd be saying the same thing about 9mm in the 80s? It generally takes several decades for Americans to figure "new" calibers out.
We're now 30 years past the point of introduction for 5.7x28mm so there has been plenty of time to test it's reliability and effectiveness, in which the internet has aided us greatly, and I'm not seeing any downsides to it besides price.
9mm fricking blows. the only argument 9mm gays ever have is "muh hollowpoints" when every other caliber also has hollow points.
Mag capacity is a meme, every avilable statistics points to the fact that in 90%+ of self defense shootings the attacker has fled or died within a handful of rounds. Glocktards that think you need 17+5 are CoD larpers
>sorry im also a moron
Yes you are. Those are the same exact round. It became popular relatively recently but is 120 years old. There are double stack “high capacity” 9mms going back to the Browning hi power in 1935.
Very few Americans were carrying handguns chambered in 9mm in the 80s, it was all wheelguns and .45s back then. So yes 9mm was new to the American market, and there was an incredible amount of pusback against Wonder Nines. People damn near lost their minds when the military adopted the 92FS and it wasn't really until the late 90s that most civilian shooters started taking an interest in them. Yet here we are today and 9mm is the undeniable king of the handgun industry.
The point I was trying to make is that opinions can change but it does take time.
Huh?
You and I remember quite a different 1980's America, fren.
S+Ws had a very serviceable line of SA/DA 9mm semis since the late 70s as I recall, Beretta 9s had been around forever, you could get the Colt in 9mm, and then Steyr imported the GB, Glock imported itself, Sig-Sauer was still a boutique gun, and Ruger got in on the act.
What pushback there might have been was small and insignificant.
All you'd have to do is search through firearm magazines dated through the 1980s to find a plethora of articles decrying the adoption of 9mm by the military, which was thought of as underpowered by even some of the forward thinkers of the day.
During the 1986 Miami shootout the FBI were using S&W 459s and one of the prominent conclusions the bureau came to was the fact that their 9mm rounds failed to stop the shooters. A year later the FBI would go on to confirm that through a handgun test which took place in 1987 and clearly stated a stronger caliber than 9mm was necessary for agents in the field. That is how we ended up with .40 S&W and it further ingrained the resistance to 9mm in a very large portion of civilian shooters.
At the same time, local law enforcement departments were only just beginning to retire their revolvers and even the bureau, which were ahead of the curve, still had agents carrying revolvers in .38 special. >What pushback there might have been was small and insignificant.
You mean like how we still have discussions about the merits of using a bigger, heavier bullet, or how there's a thriving community of 357, 45 and 10mm enthusiasts?
There are still so many wheelgun users that they make up a significant portion of competitive shooting events, backpackers, and big game hunters.
Anecdotally, I don't know of anyone who carried a handgun in 9mm during the 1980s. They were rare and more expensive, so was the ammo for them in that time period. A lot of those Wonder Nines were less proven too.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Shoot me down with a 5.7mm chambered pistol if I'm wrong...
I heard in Paul Harrell video that they used 12 shot auto loaders. That would be the 469, the compact. 459 is the fullsize 14 shot.
People started switching to 9mm when browning made the high-power. The higher capacity made it extremely desirable and basically all gun guys wanted one. It spawned what are known as wonder nines. I'm not sure what planet you live on.
>People started switching to 9mm when browning made the high-power
Not really, no. When it comes to fullsize pistols like that, the debate at the time the hipower came out in the US was between revolvers and the 1911. The thing was in production in 1935. >It spawned what are known as wonder nines
Sure, and the concept didn't take off for decades. Hence the name, "wonder 9s" as if they were some new almost fantastical thing. Even though the hipower was around for decades before.
>People started switching to 9mm when browning made the high-power.
lol no they didn't. people started switching to the 9mm when manufacturers started making 9mm pistols that didn't need a gunsmith in order to run hollow points, and that didn't happen until the mid 80's. I've got a SIG P225 that was made in 1987 that won't run hollow points reliably. (I have nearly a thousand rounds of Nosler's 9mm ballistic tips just for it).
In the 70s we all know that Black folks were shooting each other with 38s but by 1990 gangster rappers were all about killing each other with 9mm. So the transition had to happen at some point in the 1980s, even if late in the decade.
I wouldve been saying the same thing about 9mm in the 80s because it was accurate in the 1980s. Hollowpoint 9mm sucked dick in the 80s. Revolvers had a way better combat/duty ammo following at the time. In 1991 Speer came out with Gold Dot, which was a big deal as far as improved performance. >inb4 shill
I'm not it was just good ass ammo. Its name recognition still accounts for a lot of its sales today, in addition to Gold Dot g2 being pretty damn good. I carried it in my last duty gun well into the 2010s. 9mm didnt exist in a vaccum of being good or shit. The ballistics of the era come into play big time.
The real question is what the frick took so long? I have several ideas.
One that's so far been left unsaid is the Dicken Drill. People didn't think they would ever have to use a pistol at 40 yards, and now they want something flat shooting and light recoiling.
Also, both 9mm, and .45 predate virtually all body armour tech meant for guns, barring holdovers from medival shit meant for black powder. Including those german plates used in WW1. Now in the 2020s handgun rated vests are getting cheaper and cheaper. Soon crooks, and psychos will start using it and then both 9mm and .45 are going to be the "niche calibers" tbh.
It's always been a great round, and pandemic scarcity and cost of 9mm probably made the "but the price, if you can even find it" argument a bit closer to moot.
And yea, the Ruger 57 and now the PSA Rock have really opened the floodgates.
Vests are nice.
Shoot for the dick.
Lots of arteries in the groin, and if the perp thinks he's been ball-shot, he'll shock and you can put the second round in his throat.
You got VATS? Gib.
Dick and neck and head are way smaller targets than the upper and lower chest. If one has trouble hitting a coke can at leasure from 25 yards like I do, then I can't speak to """leg meta""" being a good idea for when you're in the near (if not complete) panic and "adreniline dump" of a firefight.
anon you don't literally need to blow his dick off, you can hit pretty much any part of the pelvis with almost anything sizable and frick someone up severely
I am aware you were talking about the pelvis in general. It's still a way smaller target, and that's assuming they don't take cover/concealment, hiding their whole lower half from boolet. Now we're into fudd territory, with "all you need is a .22, just aim for the head like them assasins" level of reliance on shot placement. All because criminals are evolving, and some of us aren't ready to let a more than century old cartridge die.
Man, I wish. My computer's a cheap shitbox because guns cost. Thought the triple quotation marks would tip one off to the sarcasm. Sorry I was unclear.
If feels like more of a symptom of buyer's remorse to me. Anon's became disillusioned and now have to convince everyone else it's God's gift to firearms. By no means do I think it's a bad cartridge, but I definately don't think it's as good as the hype would have you think.
they made picrel which also comes in a pistol form but like 9x39 rifles it's for shooting domestic krokodil addicts and an impractical gun
9x39 is a meme cartridge designed specifically for suppressed stopping power for comparison a five seven actually has comparable energy and both rounds are even designed to fire a tumbling armor penetrating bullet which shows how severe the compromises are when you want something subsonic
if you aren't in it for aesthetics because those guns are ugly as frick and impractical and want similar suppressed performance unironically get .45 acp which can put out bullets of the same weight at comparable subsonic speeds all you're missing out on is ballistic coefficient and armor penetration because 9x39 is narrower and uses moronicly expensive ammo to get subsonic armor penetrating performance
I'm pulling all these figures off random gun charts and wikipedia and the 9x39 figures are only available from 10.5 inch barrels which is actually longer than even the vss barrel but we'll be optimistic and say you can push it out of a revolver at the same velocity:
if you don't care about suppressing it then the mild 250 grain 9x39 service loads are beat out of the park in muzzle energy by basically everything supersonic with more energy than 9x19 and .357 sig does it in the same diameter while 5.7 in a smaller one
now actually if you're comparing with 700 grain still subsonic 9x39 wolf commercial ammo the bullet weight is high enough it ends up sitting between .357 and .44 magnum but it's still a goddamned foreign rifle cartridge
no you're just a shitzo. it has appeal because a mass shooter used one against glowies, there's a poorgay ruger option, and the round is unironically good.
it fricks up armor real good and you can also carry 30 of them in a pistol mag.
Sure it’s .308 sized instead of .311 but the 80 grain projectile is still going to go nearly 3000 fps from such a tiny tube(16 inches) even with the gas leakage
a light tumbling cartridge like 5.56 fmj isn't useless but for purposes like hunting and self defence where killing shots are important and you want as much stopping power as is reasonable fmj is more liable to overpenetrate and punch holes in and out of your target with less expansion and fragmentation than a hollow or soft point which means a smaller margin of error for a killing shot, in addition if the bullet overpenetrates then it hasn't fully transferred its kinetic energy into the target and that stray round can put bystanders in danger
you can probably get by with using fmj ammo but I'd compare it to the situation of someone using a 10/22 or mosin for home defence, probably good enough but why not do better if you have the means to do so since there's such high stakes involved in the event you have to
for a good example of overpenetration potential picrel from a few feet away with a solid lead bullet that has at most around half the muzzle energy of 5.56 punched straight through a woman's chest and buried into the shoulder of the guy behind her during the alec baldwin rust shooting
note this is all general information I haven't looked much into what ammo is available and ideal for 5.56 and I still have some unanswered questions like armor penetration against level iii but while picking up a few boxes of hunting or self defence ammo probably wouldn't make the difference if you had to use it but again you might as well be as prepared as you reasonably can
I hate that I might have to thank Alec for that, given that the day after that happened I was able to buy an Uberti revolver for like 2/3rds the normal price at my LGS.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I kind of doubt that. Who impulse bought a single action .45lc reproduction revolver during the panic buying not knowing what it was capable of and then said "woah, it did WHAT? Man, my gun is so unsafe!!" There couldn't have been that many people unloading them back onto the market.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It was a new gun, Uberti themselves were marking them down because they were afraid people might not buy their guns after such a fiasco as Alec doming interns with one. It wasn't too much cheaper but it was a nice discount.
Still haven't shot it either
Anyone know a way to secure the five-seven safety do it can't engage but not permanently alter the gun? I want to carry one but am trying to figure out a temporary job weld solution or something.
The FN 5.7 pistol is constantly maligned or underestimated in many gun forums and articles, often by people who have never experienced shooting the pistol. Subjective comparisons with the .22 magnum or categorization as a sub-par .223 round create confusion about the effectiveness of the FN 5.7
Using SS192 and SS197SR ammunition (common commercial 5.7x28 ammo), several 20-30 round magazines and an FN 5.7 (shooter also had a .357 revolver but did not use it), Hassan killed 13 and wounded 32
1. 11 people were shot center-of-mass (COM), one was shot in the stomach and one was shot in the head. All 13 died. All 11 victims who were shot COM did not survive.
2. 3 of the 13 people who died, tried to charge Hassan, but he stopped them with COM shots.
3. The 32 people who were wounded were hit in the arms, legs, hips and shoulders. None of the wounded survivors were shot COM.
The following conclusions can be drawn:
1. The FN 5.7 is a very lethal round CQB because all 11 victims who were shot COM died. No survivors for those hit COM.
2. The FN 5.7 is a real stopper, because 3 tried to charge Hassan at close range and were stopped by COM shots.
3. One of the fatalities was shot in the stomach, and died. The fragmentation of the SS197R round can create a hail of metal shards that can cause serious internal organ damage and bleeding in the stomach.
4. None of the 32 people who were hit in the extremities, hips and shoulders were able to muster a counter-attack because the FN 5.7 must have shattered or broken bones. The high rate of wounded vicitms to fatalities was the direct result of the shooting ability of Hassan (or lack thereof), and not because the 5.7x28 round is not lethal.
5. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity
6. According to medical personnel, there was so much blood in the room that it was difficult to get to the victims because the floor became very slippery. One can conclude that the commercial 5.7x28 rounds can fragment or tumble, causing immense blood loss.
7. It took five bullets (which I assume was a 9 mm) from Sgt Mark Todd to stop Hasan. And he survived his wounds (no available info on where he was hit, except that one of the bullets paralyzed Hasan).
In conclusion:
1. The FN 5.7 is definitely a very lethal round. 100% fatality for COM shots.
2. The FN 5.7 is a man-stopper. Three military men tried to charge Hasan, and all three were stopped.
2. The FN 5.7 is a very incapacitating round, if extremities are hit, because it is powerful enough to break the femur (which is the largest bone in the body)
3. The fragmentation or tumbling effect of commercial ammo can cause a lot of blood loss.
The FN 5.7 is a very effective weapon. It is as effective as, or arguably more effective, than any military or civilian pistols in the market.
3. One of the fatalities was shot in the stomach, and died. The fragmentation of the SS197R round can create a hail of metal shards that can cause serious internal organ damage and bleeding in the stomach.
4. None of the 32 people who were hit in the extremities, hips and shoulders were able to muster a counter-attack because the FN 5.7 must have shattered or broken bones. The high rate of wounded vicitms to fatalities was the direct result of the shooting ability of Hassan (or lack thereof), and not because the 5.7x28 round is not lethal.
5. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity
6. According to medical personnel, there was so much blood in the room that it was difficult to get to the victims because the floor became very slippery. One can conclude that the commercial 5.7x28 rounds can fragment or tumble, causing immense blood loss.
7. It took five bullets (which I assume was a 9 mm) from Sgt Mark Todd to stop Hasan. And he survived his wounds (no available info on where he was hit, except that one of the bullets paralyzed Hasan).
In conclusion:
1. The FN 5.7 is definitely a very lethal round. 100% fatality for COM shots.
2. The FN 5.7 is a man-stopper. Three military men tried to charge Hasan, and all three were stopped.
2. The FN 5.7 is a very incapacitating round, if extremities are hit, because it is powerful enough to break the femur (which is the largest bone in the body)
3. The fragmentation or tumbling effect of commercial ammo can cause a lot of blood loss.
The FN 5.7 is a very effective weapon. It is as effective as, or arguably more effective, than any military or civilian pistols in the market.
3. One of the fatalities was shot in the stomach, and died. The fragmentation of the SS197R round can create a hail of metal shards that can cause serious internal organ damage and bleeding in the stomach.
4. None of the 32 people who were hit in the extremities, hips and shoulders were able to muster a counter-attack because the FN 5.7 must have shattered or broken bones. The high rate of wounded vicitms to fatalities was the direct result of the shooting ability of Hassan (or lack thereof), and not because the 5.7x28 round is not lethal.
5. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity
6. According to medical personnel, there was so much blood in the room that it was difficult to get to the victims because the floor became very slippery. One can conclude that the commercial 5.7x28 rounds can fragment or tumble, causing immense blood loss.
7. It took five bullets (which I assume was a 9 mm) from Sgt Mark Todd to stop Hasan. And he survived his wounds (no available info on where he was hit, except that one of the bullets paralyzed Hasan).
In conclusion:
1. The FN 5.7 is definitely a very lethal round. 100% fatality for COM shots.
2. The FN 5.7 is a man-stopper. Three military men tried to charge Hasan, and all three were stopped.
2. The FN 5.7 is a very incapacitating round, if extremities are hit, because it is powerful enough to break the femur (which is the largest bone in the body)
3. The fragmentation or tumbling effect of commercial ammo can cause a lot of blood loss.
The FN 5.7 is a very effective weapon. It is as effective as, or arguably more effective, than any military or civilian pistols in the market.
I've heard an urban legend that says a few crime scene investigators at Fort Hood went out and bought Five Sevens for personal carry as soon as a week later.
3. One of the fatalities was shot in the stomach, and died. The fragmentation of the SS197R round can create a hail of metal shards that can cause serious internal organ damage and bleeding in the stomach.
4. None of the 32 people who were hit in the extremities, hips and shoulders were able to muster a counter-attack because the FN 5.7 must have shattered or broken bones. The high rate of wounded vicitms to fatalities was the direct result of the shooting ability of Hassan (or lack thereof), and not because the 5.7x28 round is not lethal.
5. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity
6. According to medical personnel, there was so much blood in the room that it was difficult to get to the victims because the floor became very slippery. One can conclude that the commercial 5.7x28 rounds can fragment or tumble, causing immense blood loss.
7. It took five bullets (which I assume was a 9 mm) from Sgt Mark Todd to stop Hasan. And he survived his wounds (no available info on where he was hit, except that one of the bullets paralyzed Hasan).
In conclusion:
1. The FN 5.7 is definitely a very lethal round. 100% fatality for COM shots.
2. The FN 5.7 is a man-stopper. Three military men tried to charge Hasan, and all three were stopped.
2. The FN 5.7 is a very incapacitating round, if extremities are hit, because it is powerful enough to break the femur (which is the largest bone in the body)
3. The fragmentation or tumbling effect of commercial ammo can cause a lot of blood loss.
The FN 5.7 is a very effective weapon. It is as effective as, or arguably more effective, than any military or civilian pistols in the market.
Umm... Thanks? This is what I meant earlier by real world data on the cartridge's performance having piss poor optics. Was OP's post from the same incident?
Also, what was considered centre of mass?
3. One of the fatalities was shot in the stomach, and died. The fragmentation of the SS197R round can create a hail of metal shards that can cause serious internal organ damage and bleeding in the stomach.
4. None of the 32 people who were hit in the extremities, hips and shoulders were able to muster a counter-attack because the FN 5.7 must have shattered or broken bones. The high rate of wounded vicitms to fatalities was the direct result of the shooting ability of Hassan (or lack thereof), and not because the 5.7x28 round is not lethal.
5. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity
6. According to medical personnel, there was so much blood in the room that it was difficult to get to the victims because the floor became very slippery. One can conclude that the commercial 5.7x28 rounds can fragment or tumble, causing immense blood loss.
7. It took five bullets (which I assume was a 9 mm) from Sgt Mark Todd to stop Hasan. And he survived his wounds (no available info on where he was hit, except that one of the bullets paralyzed Hasan).
In conclusion:
1. The FN 5.7 is definitely a very lethal round. 100% fatality for COM shots.
2. The FN 5.7 is a man-stopper. Three military men tried to charge Hasan, and all three were stopped.
2. The FN 5.7 is a very incapacitating round, if extremities are hit, because it is powerful enough to break the femur (which is the largest bone in the body)
3. The fragmentation or tumbling effect of commercial ammo can cause a lot of blood loss.
The FN 5.7 is a very effective weapon. It is as effective as, or arguably more effective, than any military or civilian pistols in the market.
oh, THAT homosexual, yes I'm sure one sample size with a surprise attack and no other evidence is a great idea to base your entire metrics off of. Fort hood was an advertisment for that shitty pistol, we still don't have hard and fast data on the bullet or why it's allegedly that good other than a military base ghost story.
A trained soldier with intent to kill gets a drop on a base for of soldiers who had no idea what was going on, the fact that he got rushed by "female soldiers" shouldn't be added as a point for the pistol. It's such a shit example you might as well cite teh AK's superiority over m16s because of how many soldiers died in surprise attacks to them.
It was always fricking stupid to base your data around one single point of data and nothing else.
The fact that it was a surprise attack doesn't really change anything about the points he made, though. Yes, there would obviously be less dead and wounded overall, but he wasn't really making the argument that 5.7 is potent solely because of the casualty count.
real life doesn't work like videogames, you don't get a damage bonus for surprise attacks you moron. Everyone shot in the chest died. That does not happen with any other pistol caliber.
>SS197 is a 40gr hollow point moving at 1950fps
Yeah, no shit it does a lot of damage, it basically follows the same principle of 5.56 (small but fast boolit) which we know produces some absolutely devastating wounds.
Yeah, and the a velocity of your average 9mm is like 1100-1300fps, no one is shelling out for the ultra gucci really homie killa +P+ shit that will absolutely beat most 9mm to absolute shit. So I'd say it's still got a notable advantage over most pistol calibers.
There are dozens of hunting videos that shows a shot to a supined animal. Dude should be glad he got shot with a 40gr vmax from a pistol caliber and not a intermediate bullet.
The only reason why I wouldn't buy a 5 7 is because I am a reloader and hand loading their cartridge seems like a turbo autist rabbit hole
They use some kind of dry lubricant on the external cases and nobody knows what it is. And there is a very narrow range of powder between a kaboom and proper cycling of the action. With the 50000+ psi pressures I imagine case deformation and reusability is an issue as well.
Yeah, they even acknowledge that reloading will probably turn your pistol into a Glock style hand removal device, and there's been at least two examples of FivseveN owners having such kabooms.
I know of one mad lad who even tossed around the idea of trying to stuff 55 grain 5.56 in there.
Yeah, they even acknowledge that reloading will probably turn your pistol into a Glock style hand removal device, and there's been at least two examples of FivseveN owners having such kabooms.
I know of one mad lad who even tossed around the idea of trying to stuff 55 grain 5.56 in there.
Yup my Lyman reloading manual has a whole two paragraphs on the 5.7mm page full of warnings and advising extreme caution attempting to load rounds for the 5.7 due to the super tiny powder charge and high pressures the cartridge generates and even went so far as to recommend using manual cup powder tricklers for reloading due to the dangers of mechanical or electrical powder tricklers to double throw a charge or overcharge the case.
hot cartridges like 5.7 mainly have a problem of needing a strong enough action but I'm sure there could be some improvement in that area, if there's one area where firearms isn't quite "solved" yet it'd be in subcompacts
even if performance would drop off a lot
imagine if someone were able to design a really strong subcompact action that shot some super hot round like a .44 magnum derringer but with usable capacity
Based. Is the thing about their magazines breaking/becoming shit if dropped fuddlore? I heard of that over a decade ago.
Also, with some really high speed operators using the p90, there's probably more data to be had about the .57's effectiveness, it's just part of classified as frick ops, so we have only have the fricking Fort Hood shooter's fratricidal rampage to go off of.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Ive got 5 of the mags and none of them have given me any problems. They're a lot simpler than people make them out to be
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's super good to know. I was a wee lad when I heard that. Starting to think the 2000s Canada airsoft/reserves community and fudds were drinking from the same glass.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Just make sure to get actual FN mags, not the aftermarket ones. I dont know diddly about the AM ones.
I still wanna get a .22 tcm over a 5.7 >doesn't do the wounding tumble bit and probably worse barrier penetration but is in a jhp that fragments like a b***h >I've seen both penetrate iiia armor and not penetrate it but .22 tcm seems more powerful, only side-by-side comparison of armor penetration I can recall is paul harrel's (https://youtu.be/vLCsQkEL9eQ) >comes with a 9mm barrel too which I don't have anything in right now (can shoot the 9mm ammo I find digging through the dirt at my range) >cheaper ammo, even if it's basically proprietary and the gun itself is more expensive and I can't even find one at msrp
probably won't be in a position financially to splurge on guns for a few years so hopefully prices will cool down and everything including .303 will be available and tcm will get saami certified by then
Bullet didn't do that. Looks like they kept him open to perform multiple wash-outs and pack his gay shit since perforated guts isnt kosher. I'm surprised he didn't go septic and shuffle off his mortal coil.
I guess if .22lr revolvers are a thing, why couldnt this besides price. Id like to see some more types of 5.7 before that though, Speers HP for it is dogshit
Now you're talking my language! It would open up a whole other area of the market, and with the extra long barrel, body armor might not be doing so well. That and it could be sold as a varmint gun
Well this is a revolver, we can offer multiple lengths. A standard 4.8 inch, a 6 inch, a 8 inch, and if we're feeling spicy, a 10 inch. And offer a scope mount
P90 velocity out of a handgun, we're approaching autism that shouldn't be possible
2 years ago
Anonymous
Well this is a revolver, we can offer multiple lengths. A standard 4.8 inch, a 6 inch, a 8 inch, and if we're feeling spicy, a 10 inch. And offer a scope mount
Frick yea brother! While we're at it, let's go the whole way and make a longslide version of the ruger .57 with a 7, or 8 inch barrel! The spicer the round, the better the cycling.
2 years ago
Anonymous
kel tec need to make their own ammo for it too. make the gun as strong as possible and have some Kel Tec Bubbas hot pissing loads
2 years ago
Anonymous
Let's do that and just have more guns in 5.7 in general. Let's have RIA or someone make a 1911 or 2011 in 5.7, then we'll be playing with power!
2 years ago
Anonymous
no, just modernize the P90 to something not straight blowback, up the PSI to 70-80K.
2 years ago
Anonymous
That would explain why 5.7 was able to fight the aliens in Stargate lol
2 years ago
Anonymous
I'm in the camp that if FN just took a few years to do that, everyone would forget about SBR 5.56s and .300 cuckout for a lot of applications.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yes, but then we'd be burning thru barrels every 500 rounds lol
2 years ago
Anonymous
sounds good to me
2 years ago
Anonymous
If they could lock the breech...
and convert to other straightwall cartridges in their mags...
that would mean I could put 10MM in a P90.
Which would mean I would stop at nothing to attain one.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Let's do that and just have more guns in 5.7 in general. Let's have RIA or someone make a 1911 or 2011 in 5.7, then we'll be playing with power!
https://i.imgur.com/zEOshdU.jpg
Absolutley. Especially now that NATO is adopting the round. I think SIG will want to get in on this right quick, in case the army wants their modular M17s and M18s to be adapted to the new caliber. Or more likley, euro armies shopping for a new pistol in .57 will have gun manufacturers finally pulling their fingers out of their asses.
make the use the hybrid casings so we can get some crazy PSI though.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Absolutley. Especially now that NATO is adopting the round. I think SIG will want to get in on this right quick, in case the army wants their modular M17s and M18s to be adapted to the new caliber. Or more likley, euro armies shopping for a new pistol in .57 will have gun manufacturers finally pulling their fingers out of their asses.
So tell Kel-Tec to make it. They already made a "Pistol" from a P90 mag with a 10" barrel
2 years ago
Anonymous
The cylinder gap might interfer with it reaching it's normal velocities, but idk.
Kel Tek would be crazy and autistic enough to do it. As for the cylinder gap issue, they could make it 10.5 inches to reach the same velocity as a p90
2 years ago
Anonymous
https://i.imgur.com/iWkPqBG.jpg
kel tec need to make their own ammo for it too. make the gun as strong as possible and have some Kel Tec Bubbas hot pissing loads
Yes.
Big Irons for the bastard great great grandchildren of Texas red and the notches on their plate carriers numbering a whole glock mag of 9mms stopped.
Has anyone done a side-by-side measurement of muzzle flip on this vs a 9? Like slo-mo on a common background. When I watch the videos it looks like barely a bump.
Honestly this sort of confirms my belief that a bottlenecked case will always outperform a straightwalled one. My only gripe is that the bottleneck of a 5.7 is too conservative. If you'd like to compare, look at a 5.7 case and compare it's shape to a 7.62x39 round. The bottleneck is so comparable that it just looks to be a scaled down 7.62x39 casing. Basically, in terms of ballistics it's not extreme enough. Consider that 5.56 and 7.62x54R (nugget food) actually has fairly the same level of bottleneck, as well as with .50 BMG. Any coincidence that they're all beloved and well-performing cartridges?
With that in mind, we need a deeper bottleneck for a pistol round like 5.7 to match the incline of 5.56. It may not tumble like 5.56 does but it's sure to be a higher performing round than current 5.7 ammunition.
If anyone reloads wildcat ammunition, especially those who deal in autistic meme competitions trying to see how fast a .22 bullet can go, please try to make this. Make a scaled down casing that resembles a 5.56's bottleneck, probably use a .22 or .17 for the bullet, and test it out on some ballistic gel and slabs of meat, I'd very much like to see what it would do.
Also someone post the .17 Moon Orbital image because I seem to have lost it, was going to attach it to this post.
What an amazing ammo advert. Frickin metal. If you're gonna shill go all in, I like it
He just had shitty doctors.
>What an amazing ammo advert.
No kidding. Pretty amusing how the guy got his guts turned into goo, and his main takeaway seems to be "damn, that was some fricking good ammo".
wonder if he bought a five-seven afterwards
>i thought 5.7 was anemic
He's alive, isn't he?
thats one round....imagine what 2 rounds what do
checked, and come on, 50AE would of put him down in one shot
Watch this
The principal of "a spicy .22 will do more to your opponent than whatever the frick caliber in the dirt" applies, and if your strategy banks on not missing, because follow up shots are for noobs that weren't using a jacobs, you need to read more case studies, and play fewer RPGs. Or listen to podcasts/audiobooks, and do both.
Given how flat recoiling all the Five Seven yeeters on offer are, that can easily be arranged. With a 9 shit like THIS
is the acme of skill. With a Five Seven of some kind, this many shots on target can be a lot easier.
damn thats a lot of shots
He's not dead, just horrifically wounded, even though the round went through just about all of his intestines and lung.
If I shoot someone I want them to die.
If this guy had been hit with a 9MM hollowpoint or a 10MM in the same place, he'd be dead.
So glad there is so much more interest in this round now. But man does that image look fricked up. Why does all the real world application data for this round have to come from shit with the worst optics though?
This is the first time I've seen someone claim any kind of gut shot with a handgun can kill instantly.
Then you must not know many paramedics, I was good friends with a paramedic for a while. We get a lot of gunshot wounds in South Africa and if I remember right we have the highest trauma rate per capita in the world, he told me that 9mm vs .45 auto doesn't tend to make a big difference, but that in his experience if you were wounded with any sort of ball ammo (which makes up most of our black market ammo in SA) and it didn't hit your vitals you would probably make it, he said that any torso shot with hollow point 9mm will usually kill you. Good defensive ammo will mangle your innards to a level that most people don't seem to fully understand, unless it happens inside a hospital you are probably going to die.
"I don't care if it can incapacitate an attacker, I just want to know someone's family is gonna miss them when the dust is settled."
The fact that people like you exist is a big part of why I own guns
>The fact that people like you exist is a big part of why I own guns
Seriously, I just want to use my guns to plink and have the peace of mind knowing I can defend myself. I don't want to kill anybody and I hate getting grouped in with the people who fantasize about getting a COD killstreak irl.
>I don't want to kill anybody
Get a taser and rape whistle, gay.
Election tourists like you should be drawn and quartered
Relatable, but this homosexual here
is assmad as frick
Ain't assmad about anything, you israelites can't handle the fact that this fricking guy got gutshot longitudinally and survived because the special sauce FiVe SevEn cartridge is only really good at causing immediate cavitation and nothing else, which is why literally nobody uses it professionally in the US.
If it was half as good at literally anything the gays here think it is, it'd be the sidearm of choice for all the three letter agencies and more.
So why is it not?
The FN 57 has had reliability issues in the past, and weird ergos. Finally Ruger got things rolling again with the Ruger 57.
That the P90 has had nigh nothing but praise since it's introduction in the 90s speaks to it's exellence, provided the firearm it's coming from is more than decent.
Praise from who? Who is still using it?
As far as I am aware they have been dropped out of USSS service literally in 2011.
If you have information that says otherwise, by all means.
i cant find any sources otherwise, I did find a schizo on youtube saying the IRS bought some P90s this year though
From what I understand, the USSS encountered some issues with them (something either service or reliability related) and was met with little service from FN.
Go figure.
Apparently they switched over to MP7s and compact 5.56 carbines, although some may still be hangers on.
I remember In 2014 or 2015 someone who worked at a registered government contract firearms destruction facility in Maryland or Virginia was caught with a three-position USSS P90 in his house, they had scrapped a quantity of them and apparently he had managed to smuggle one out of the facility and hid it.
S-sauce?
https://sofrep.com/news/secret-service-goes-gun-shopping/
"In mid-March 2016, the Secret Service started shopping for a firearm to replace or supplement its fleet of H&K MP5s (below) and FNP90s (top)."
The link for the federal RFQ is in there, specifying compact 5.56 SBRs, with a max height of 8", presumably for concealment beneath a coat under the armpit or something.
Thanks for the sauce fren. Have a Cirnino.
the secret service use P90's dont they?
>implying i mentioned anything about how 5.7 is good or bad
where is your reading comprehension?
>if I need to shoot someone, I don't want it to be a absolutely necessary last resort I choose after exhausting all available options, I want to just grievously wound them but leave them alive and in horrible agony and still potentially capable of being a threat, but not dead because that's going too far.
This is you.
You are a joke.
What I said: "If your number 1 concern for your carry ammo is maximum bloodshed instead of effectiveness in a self-defense situation, you're a psychopathic moron."
What you heard: "Nobody should ever die and I would never shoot someone more than once even if they were still a threat - not because I want to avoid unnecessary carnage, but because I relish their cries of agony as they lay wounded."
Ok buddy
Somehow you think "shoot to kill" specifically for the purpose of ending a threat in a self defense situation is "maximum bloodshed", because apparently you're a fricking moron.
If you think "shoot to wound" is a viable and reasonable tactic, you're fricking moronic, buddy.
Maximum bloodshed is effectiveness you fricking idiot. Unless you hit the CNS you incapacitate via blood loss depriving oxygen to the brain. The more they bleed the quicker that happens. Death is also a side effect of bleeding more.
Get off your fricking high horse and go back. You aren’t wanted here.
you are a gigantic homosexual
No, he wouldn't. He took a bullet to the belly and some of the fragments ended up in his lung. Please tell me how you think any other caliber would have magically gone through his central nervous system or caused more bleeding than he already had.
Did you gloss over "supine postion" you fricking idiot?
The round hit him in the stomach, went through his intestine, fragmented into his lungs, and HE STILL SURVIVED.
9mm or 10mm would have continued through the chest cavity because they both carry literally three times the mass, which is what penetrates soft tissue.
Either would have still ruptured his intestine, punctured his diaphragm, tore through his lung, and probably continued up into his heart, neck, or even exited the body and impacted his head.
Penetration is dictated primarily by ballistic coefficient and velocity and also by bullet stability
Mass as an independent factor has a relatively small role in penetration (it is a component of ballistic coefficient, but is only half of the equation)
5.7x28 has a good BC and is smoking fast.
>and also by bullet stability
Which is why 5.7 yaws almost immediately upon entering a soft target, fragments, and causes massive wounding in a very limited tract, as was clearly demonstrated in this situation.
Reddit gays like you should go back to guzzling cum from a bucket.
Not to be nitpicky, but it's not BC - it's sectional density. BC results from sectional density and good BC usually means you get a faster and typically more stable projectile but sectional density is the thing that meaningfully affects the pen along with mass. 5.7 wadcutters would be poor penetrators relative to a spitzer projectile of the same material, even with velocities and masses identical.
>If this guy had been hit with a 9MM hollowpoint or a 10MM in the same place, he'd be dead.
Pistols have like a 30-40% of incapacitating on a first shot statistically, so no, he probably wouldn't
He survived because he got medical care ASAP. There's a lot of gang members surviving multiple gunshot wound even in the head in ghetto Chicago, as long as they get medical treatment ASAP they have a lot higher chance of surviving critical gunshot wound.
Did he shoot himself point blank with it? His abdomen is the consistency of ballistic gel.
i have no clue. he said he was laying on his back so its hard to see how he got shot otherwise
> Bussy
have a nice day and do us a favor zoomer moron
>so desperate to put your dick in something you decide to start calling a man's ass 'bussy' to cope with it
I bet you'd know
Exit life
Anyone got a pic of someone shot in roughly the same spot with 9mm?
Here ya go buddy
i would have sucked his lung out
through his wiener?
merely a flesh wound
wheres his organs???
The perineum is hiding them.
Gone most likely. He will need to eat through a tube the rest of his life
Gunt saved them
>40 Grain polymer tipped bullet @ 2034 fps
maybe the expansion is decent
>2034fps
Out of a p90, maybe 1600 out of a handgun
With the right loads a Five-seveN can hit 2400. Elite ammunition has a few that do.
see
Saw a guy shot in a similiar way with a lead round nose .38 spl. Shooter was on his back and he shot him right around there. Guybwas ambulatory and talking at first and then coded on his way to the helicopter, had to turn around and drive him to the hospital, strapped him to the lukas machine thing and the dude died at the hospital. The CPR machine pumped his guts out. Turned him to mashed potatoes
>cpr on a traumatic cardiac arrest
lol why
what kind of dumb frick service do you work for
Wasnt my job to deal with that. I was putting bloody clothing items in a brown paper evidence bag
Is 5.7 the current "eat the bugs" of the gun world? If it felt at all organic I wouldn't think twice about it but it really seems like shills are out in fricking force pushing 5.7 for the last year or so and very specifically within the last few months.
It's because Ruger made a 5.7 pistol so now poorgays are getting into it.
Poorgay here. Can confirm
>Not a PSA Rock
Poor my ass. That's the Patrician choice.
The Rock is pretty nice looking ngl. Maybe it's a pos in terms of build quality (or not) but I like the look.
It's finally gotten into the hands of all kinds of small time gun tubers, and they have yet to find a major issue with it. Two different channels (can't remember which) had it jam on like the first shot, cleared it, and proceeded to have no subsequent issues. However, no one's put forward the green to do a 1,000 round tourture test, or anything yet.
Here's some
>However, no one's put forward the green to do a 1,000 round tourture test, or anything yet.
Yeah seriously, this was a $55 video recording for a drum dump https://youtu.be/NGSKjuUVq74?t=286
Amazing! That's the first I've heard of the DRM A-80 (looks futuristic as frick). Well, we know PSA can make a drum mag that doesn't suck, and that counts for a lot.
That video literally dropped after this thread started. Happening times for this cartridge.
Wound cavity fetish aside the best thing about watching people shoot that round is how flat the gun stays.
I'm not sure what you mean by the fetish thing, but yea. One more of the 9mm's strengths it doubles way down on is just how easy quick, accurate follow up shots can be because of the low recoil.
i shill it because i want more data on it. more anons who buy it are more likely to use it in self defense hence more data. otherwise i love my ps90 and want a five-seven
PSA released a pistol chambered in 5.7 that's cheaper than a Glock so more people are getting into it.
The scamdemic leveling out the cost of defensive 9mm and 5.7 probably helps too. Easier for people to justify the cost of the ammo.
Lets be real, the people buying Ruger and PSA 5.7s aren't shooting their guns enough for the difference in ammo cost from 9mm to matter.
no but it would help me so let the poors whine about it. i cant reload this shit so i have to buy it
As I said earlier in the thread
>It's always been a great round, and pandemic scarcity and cost of 9mm probably made the "but the price, if you can even find it" argument a bit closer to moot.
So how do the prices stack up, now that every karen and her dog are buying 9mms and all the ammo they can to practice with. Besides maybe have one of both so you have options when you go to the store last minute because of a major happening.
Like a 2011 chambered in 9mm, or that new 1911 that takes glock mags, again, in 9mm. Why 9mm 1911s? Because as far as I know, the Ruger 57 can be gripped and slide released in the same way.
Why do I get the feeling you'd be saying the same thing about 9mm in the 80s? It generally takes several decades for Americans to figure "new" calibers out.
We're now 30 years past the point of introduction for 5.7x28mm so there has been plenty of time to test it's reliability and effectiveness, in which the internet has aided us greatly, and I'm not seeing any downsides to it besides price.
9mm fricking blows. the only argument 9mm gays ever have is "muh hollowpoints" when every other caliber also has hollow points.
Mag capacity is a meme, every avilable statistics points to the fact that in 90%+ of self defense shootings the attacker has fled or died within a handful of rounds. Glocktards that think you need 17+5 are CoD larpers
But best CoD pistol is Desert Eagle in 50AE. It is known.
The 5AE Deagle with golden skin is best COD pistol. I have spoken.
Mag capacity is literally the reason 5.7 is based you moron
OP's pic says otherwise
Nice troll. guaranteed replies.
9mm wasn't "new" in the 80's you fricking moron. 9mm luger was invented in 1901
>luger
lol meant parabellum, sorry im also a moron
9mm Luger and 9mm parabellum are the exact same round.
Then why the different name?
There's no such thing as "9mm Luger". They called it Parabellum as a brand name, right from the start.
hahahahahahahaha. oh shit. is this guy a cop, a moron, or a 12 year old? I'm asking you, the responder, about his viewpoint.
>sorry im also a moron
Yes you are. Those are the same exact round. It became popular relatively recently but is 120 years old. There are double stack “high capacity” 9mms going back to the Browning hi power in 1935.
Very few Americans were carrying handguns chambered in 9mm in the 80s, it was all wheelguns and .45s back then. So yes 9mm was new to the American market, and there was an incredible amount of pusback against Wonder Nines. People damn near lost their minds when the military adopted the 92FS and it wasn't really until the late 90s that most civilian shooters started taking an interest in them. Yet here we are today and 9mm is the undeniable king of the handgun industry.
The point I was trying to make is that opinions can change but it does take time.
Huh?
You and I remember quite a different 1980's America, fren.
S+Ws had a very serviceable line of SA/DA 9mm semis since the late 70s as I recall, Beretta 9s had been around forever, you could get the Colt in 9mm, and then Steyr imported the GB, Glock imported itself, Sig-Sauer was still a boutique gun, and Ruger got in on the act.
What pushback there might have been was small and insignificant.
All you'd have to do is search through firearm magazines dated through the 1980s to find a plethora of articles decrying the adoption of 9mm by the military, which was thought of as underpowered by even some of the forward thinkers of the day.
During the 1986 Miami shootout the FBI were using S&W 459s and one of the prominent conclusions the bureau came to was the fact that their 9mm rounds failed to stop the shooters. A year later the FBI would go on to confirm that through a handgun test which took place in 1987 and clearly stated a stronger caliber than 9mm was necessary for agents in the field. That is how we ended up with .40 S&W and it further ingrained the resistance to 9mm in a very large portion of civilian shooters.
At the same time, local law enforcement departments were only just beginning to retire their revolvers and even the bureau, which were ahead of the curve, still had agents carrying revolvers in .38 special.
>What pushback there might have been was small and insignificant.
You mean like how we still have discussions about the merits of using a bigger, heavier bullet, or how there's a thriving community of 357, 45 and 10mm enthusiasts?
There are still so many wheelgun users that they make up a significant portion of competitive shooting events, backpackers, and big game hunters.
Anecdotally, I don't know of anyone who carried a handgun in 9mm during the 1980s. They were rare and more expensive, so was the ammo for them in that time period. A lot of those Wonder Nines were less proven too.
Shoot me down with a 5.7mm chambered pistol if I'm wrong...
I heard in Paul Harrell video that they used 12 shot auto loaders. That would be the 469, the compact. 459 is the fullsize 14 shot.
Good post BTW.
People started switching to 9mm when browning made the high-power. The higher capacity made it extremely desirable and basically all gun guys wanted one. It spawned what are known as wonder nines. I'm not sure what planet you live on.
>People started switching to 9mm when browning made the high-power
Not really, no. When it comes to fullsize pistols like that, the debate at the time the hipower came out in the US was between revolvers and the 1911. The thing was in production in 1935.
>It spawned what are known as wonder nines
Sure, and the concept didn't take off for decades. Hence the name, "wonder 9s" as if they were some new almost fantastical thing. Even though the hipower was around for decades before.
>People started switching to 9mm when browning made the high-power.
lol no they didn't. people started switching to the 9mm when manufacturers started making 9mm pistols that didn't need a gunsmith in order to run hollow points, and that didn't happen until the mid 80's. I've got a SIG P225 that was made in 1987 that won't run hollow points reliably. (I have nearly a thousand rounds of Nosler's 9mm ballistic tips just for it).
In the 70s we all know that Black folks were shooting each other with 38s but by 1990 gangster rappers were all about killing each other with 9mm. So the transition had to happen at some point in the 1980s, even if late in the decade.
The turning point was the adoption the M9 by the US military.
I wouldve been saying the same thing about 9mm in the 80s because it was accurate in the 1980s. Hollowpoint 9mm sucked dick in the 80s. Revolvers had a way better combat/duty ammo following at the time. In 1991 Speer came out with Gold Dot, which was a big deal as far as improved performance.
>inb4 shill
I'm not it was just good ass ammo. Its name recognition still accounts for a lot of its sales today, in addition to Gold Dot g2 being pretty damn good. I carried it in my last duty gun well into the 2010s. 9mm didnt exist in a vaccum of being good or shit. The ballistics of the era come into play big time.
Really it's just the price now. We have good loads, but with a box being around 50, that's steep
The real question is what the frick took so long? I have several ideas.
One that's so far been left unsaid is the Dicken Drill. People didn't think they would ever have to use a pistol at 40 yards, and now they want something flat shooting and light recoiling.
Also, both 9mm, and .45 predate virtually all body armour tech meant for guns, barring holdovers from medival shit meant for black powder. Including those german plates used in WW1. Now in the 2020s handgun rated vests are getting cheaper and cheaper. Soon crooks, and psychos will start using it and then both 9mm and .45 are going to be the "niche calibers" tbh.
It's always been a great round, and pandemic scarcity and cost of 9mm probably made the "but the price, if you can even find it" argument a bit closer to moot.
And yea, the Ruger 57 and now the PSA Rock have really opened the floodgates.
Vests are nice.
Shoot for the dick.
Lots of arteries in the groin, and if the perp thinks he's been ball-shot, he'll shock and you can put the second round in his throat.
You got VATS? Gib.
Dick and neck and head are way smaller targets than the upper and lower chest. If one has trouble hitting a coke can at leasure from 25 yards like I do, then I can't speak to """leg meta""" being a good idea for when you're in the near (if not complete) panic and "adreniline dump" of a firefight.
anon you don't literally need to blow his dick off, you can hit pretty much any part of the pelvis with almost anything sizable and frick someone up severely
I am aware you were talking about the pelvis in general. It's still a way smaller target, and that's assuming they don't take cover/concealment, hiding their whole lower half from boolet. Now we're into fudd territory, with "all you need is a .22, just aim for the head like them assasins" level of reliance on shot placement. All because criminals are evolving, and some of us aren't ready to let a more than century old cartridge die.
> """leg meta"""
found the tarkov player
Man, I wish. My computer's a cheap shitbox because guns cost. Thought the triple quotation marks would tip one off to the sarcasm. Sorry I was unclear.
The pelvis is huge dude, also it moves around less than the rest of the body. The belly that remains unprotected by armor is significant.
Where's your pic from?
Here.
Was a low effort google search. Buyer beware.
https://cheapbulletproofvest.com/
If feels like more of a symptom of buyer's remorse to me. Anon's became disillusioned and now have to convince everyone else it's God's gift to firearms. By no means do I think it's a bad cartridge, but I definately don't think it's as good as the hype would have you think.
all i want is a pistol chambered in 9x39.....
they made picrel which also comes in a pistol form but like 9x39 rifles it's for shooting domestic krokodil addicts and an impractical gun
9x39 is a meme cartridge designed specifically for suppressed stopping power for comparison a five seven actually has comparable energy and both rounds are even designed to fire a tumbling armor penetrating bullet which shows how severe the compromises are when you want something subsonic
if you aren't in it for aesthetics because those guns are ugly as frick and impractical and want similar suppressed performance unironically get .45 acp which can put out bullets of the same weight at comparable subsonic speeds all you're missing out on is ballistic coefficient and armor penetration because 9x39 is narrower and uses moronicly expensive ammo to get subsonic armor penetrating performance
I'm pulling all these figures off random gun charts and wikipedia and the 9x39 figures are only available from 10.5 inch barrels which is actually longer than even the vss barrel but we'll be optimistic and say you can push it out of a revolver at the same velocity:
if you don't care about suppressing it then the mild 250 grain 9x39 service loads are beat out of the park in muzzle energy by basically everything supersonic with more energy than 9x19 and .357 sig does it in the same diameter while 5.7 in a smaller one
now actually if you're comparing with 700 grain still subsonic 9x39 wolf commercial ammo the bullet weight is high enough it ends up sitting between .357 and .44 magnum but it's still a goddamned foreign rifle cartridge
no you're just a shitzo. it has appeal because a mass shooter used one against glowies, there's a poorgay ruger option, and the round is unironically good.
it fricks up armor real good and you can also carry 30 of them in a pistol mag.
small caliber high velocity is great in every way except barrier penetration and sometimes price
Just put solid copper boolets for your 7.62x39.
Sure it’s .308 sized instead of .311 but the 80 grain projectile is still going to go nearly 3000 fps from such a tiny tube(16 inches) even with the gas leakage
>less mass
>less fragmentation
>more expensive
>overpenetrates wasting that extra energy on bystanders
might as well shoot fmj
whats the hate with fmj? thats all i shoot for 5.56 not a troll what should i be shooting?
a light tumbling cartridge like 5.56 fmj isn't useless but for purposes like hunting and self defence where killing shots are important and you want as much stopping power as is reasonable fmj is more liable to overpenetrate and punch holes in and out of your target with less expansion and fragmentation than a hollow or soft point which means a smaller margin of error for a killing shot, in addition if the bullet overpenetrates then it hasn't fully transferred its kinetic energy into the target and that stray round can put bystanders in danger
you can probably get by with using fmj ammo but I'd compare it to the situation of someone using a 10/22 or mosin for home defence, probably good enough but why not do better if you have the means to do so since there's such high stakes involved in the event you have to
for a good example of overpenetration potential picrel from a few feet away with a solid lead bullet that has at most around half the muzzle energy of 5.56 punched straight through a woman's chest and buried into the shoulder of the guy behind her during the alec baldwin rust shooting
note this is all general information I haven't looked much into what ammo is available and ideal for 5.56 and I still have some unanswered questions like armor penetration against level iii but while picking up a few boxes of hunting or self defence ammo probably wouldn't make the difference if you had to use it but again you might as well be as prepared as you reasonably can
I hate that I might have to thank Alec for that, given that the day after that happened I was able to buy an Uberti revolver for like 2/3rds the normal price at my LGS.
I kind of doubt that. Who impulse bought a single action .45lc reproduction revolver during the panic buying not knowing what it was capable of and then said "woah, it did WHAT? Man, my gun is so unsafe!!" There couldn't have been that many people unloading them back onto the market.
It was a new gun, Uberti themselves were marking them down because they were afraid people might not buy their guns after such a fiasco as Alec doming interns with one. It wasn't too much cheaper but it was a nice discount.
Still haven't shot it either
If your goal is maximum tissue disruption, bonded soft points like gold dots or heavy tipped match bullets like ELD-Ms or TMKs
Just imagine what a 45 would do.
Also the worst part about that picture is the surgical suture. I can guarantee you his original wound was just a small hole.
A large round which doesn’t penetrate as cleanly would have killed him of made him inoperable.
You be the judge.
How the frick does that even happen? I'd like some details on this guy's story if they're out there.
Who remembers
>wound vectors
To this day I'm still a FivseveN bro because of him.
Got the orignal post of that "In conclusion, the .57 is..."?
I miss him and the flamewars bros...
I'm ashamed to admit I don't know. Could you enlighten me?
Thanks for adding some animus to this discussion. Was beginning to forget where I was.
One of the coolest tripgays to have ever graced /k/ and an actually well informed, well informative individual.
They hated him because he told them the truth.
Must have been inspired by the pinpoint accuracy and relentless onslaught of Marissa's basic attacks.
Sounds extremley cultured.
Anyone know a way to secure the five-seven safety do it can't engage but not permanently alter the gun? I want to carry one but am trying to figure out a temporary job weld solution or something.
>clip
Marissa poster. Here's the copypasta:
The FN 5.7 pistol is constantly maligned or underestimated in many gun forums and articles, often by people who have never experienced shooting the pistol. Subjective comparisons with the .22 magnum or categorization as a sub-par .223 round create confusion about the effectiveness of the FN 5.7
Using SS192 and SS197SR ammunition (common commercial 5.7x28 ammo), several 20-30 round magazines and an FN 5.7 (shooter also had a .357 revolver but did not use it), Hassan killed 13 and wounded 32
1. 11 people were shot center-of-mass (COM), one was shot in the stomach and one was shot in the head. All 13 died. All 11 victims who were shot COM did not survive.
2. 3 of the 13 people who died, tried to charge Hassan, but he stopped them with COM shots.
3. The 32 people who were wounded were hit in the arms, legs, hips and shoulders. None of the wounded survivors were shot COM.
The following conclusions can be drawn:
1. The FN 5.7 is a very lethal round CQB because all 11 victims who were shot COM died. No survivors for those hit COM.
2. The FN 5.7 is a real stopper, because 3 tried to charge Hassan at close range and were stopped by COM shots.
Copypasta 2/2
3. One of the fatalities was shot in the stomach, and died. The fragmentation of the SS197R round can create a hail of metal shards that can cause serious internal organ damage and bleeding in the stomach.
4. None of the 32 people who were hit in the extremities, hips and shoulders were able to muster a counter-attack because the FN 5.7 must have shattered or broken bones. The high rate of wounded vicitms to fatalities was the direct result of the shooting ability of Hassan (or lack thereof), and not because the 5.7x28 round is not lethal.
5. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity
6. According to medical personnel, there was so much blood in the room that it was difficult to get to the victims because the floor became very slippery. One can conclude that the commercial 5.7x28 rounds can fragment or tumble, causing immense blood loss.
7. It took five bullets (which I assume was a 9 mm) from Sgt Mark Todd to stop Hasan. And he survived his wounds (no available info on where he was hit, except that one of the bullets paralyzed Hasan).
In conclusion:
1. The FN 5.7 is definitely a very lethal round. 100% fatality for COM shots.
2. The FN 5.7 is a man-stopper. Three military men tried to charge Hasan, and all three were stopped.
2. The FN 5.7 is a very incapacitating round, if extremities are hit, because it is powerful enough to break the femur (which is the largest bone in the body)
3. The fragmentation or tumbling effect of commercial ammo can cause a lot of blood loss.
The FN 5.7 is a very effective weapon. It is as effective as, or arguably more effective, than any military or civilian pistols in the market.
the Clip shoop is so classic
thank you
I've heard an urban legend that says a few crime scene investigators at Fort Hood went out and bought Five Sevens for personal carry as soon as a week later.
Umm... Thanks? This is what I meant earlier by real world data on the cartridge's performance having piss poor optics. Was OP's post from the same incident?
Also, what was considered centre of mass?
who cares about optics? im not sure what CoH is refereed to
CoM* Company of Heros has rotted my brain
oh, THAT homosexual, yes I'm sure one sample size with a surprise attack and no other evidence is a great idea to base your entire metrics off of. Fort hood was an advertisment for that shitty pistol, we still don't have hard and fast data on the bullet or why it's allegedly that good other than a military base ghost story.
A trained soldier with intent to kill gets a drop on a base for of soldiers who had no idea what was going on, the fact that he got rushed by "female soldiers" shouldn't be added as a point for the pistol. It's such a shit example you might as well cite teh AK's superiority over m16s because of how many soldiers died in surprise attacks to them.
It was always fricking stupid to base your data around one single point of data and nothing else.
theres not a ton of 5.7 data. those who can afford to shoot it arnt usually unhinged
The fact that it was a surprise attack doesn't really change anything about the points he made, though. Yes, there would obviously be less dead and wounded overall, but he wasn't really making the argument that 5.7 is potent solely because of the casualty count.
There is no sneak attack damage bonus in real life.
real life doesn't work like videogames, you don't get a damage bonus for surprise attacks you moron. Everyone shot in the chest died. That does not happen with any other pistol caliber.
Still talk with him on discord.
Glad to know the madlad is still around. How's he doing? What's he think of the Ruger 57 and PSA Rock?
just use whatever you like, no need to stan for any caliber
>SS197 is a 40gr hollow point moving at 1950fps
Yeah, no shit it does a lot of damage, it basically follows the same principle of 5.56 (small but fast boolit) which we know produces some absolutely devastating wounds.
2,000fps isn't 3,000fps
In fact 2,000fps is the disappointing velocity of the 7.62x39
Yeah, and the a velocity of your average 9mm is like 1100-1300fps, no one is shelling out for the ultra gucci really homie killa +P+ shit that will absolutely beat most 9mm to absolute shit. So I'd say it's still got a notable advantage over most pistol calibers.
yeah but 5.7 is also smaller and lighter so it probably doesn't take as much velocity to fragment
There are dozens of hunting videos that shows a shot to a supined animal. Dude should be glad he got shot with a 40gr vmax from a pistol caliber and not a intermediate bullet.
?t=385
The only reason why I wouldn't buy a 5 7 is because I am a reloader and hand loading their cartridge seems like a turbo autist rabbit hole
They use some kind of dry lubricant on the external cases and nobody knows what it is. And there is a very narrow range of powder between a kaboom and proper cycling of the action. With the 50000+ psi pressures I imagine case deformation and reusability is an issue as well.
Yeah, they even acknowledge that reloading will probably turn your pistol into a Glock style hand removal device, and there's been at least two examples of FivseveN owners having such kabooms.
I know of one mad lad who even tossed around the idea of trying to stuff 55 grain 5.56 in there.
there is a FN 55 grain 5.7 round, but its subsonic.
Yup my Lyman reloading manual has a whole two paragraphs on the 5.7mm page full of warnings and advising extreme caution attempting to load rounds for the 5.7 due to the super tiny powder charge and high pressures the cartridge generates and even went so far as to recommend using manual cup powder tricklers for reloading due to the dangers of mechanical or electrical powder tricklers to double throw a charge or overcharge the case.
Does it require a minimum barrel length? What kind of velocity would it get out of a 3 inch micro sub?
hot cartridges like 5.7 mainly have a problem of needing a strong enough action but I'm sure there could be some improvement in that area, if there's one area where firearms isn't quite "solved" yet it'd be in subcompacts
even if performance would drop off a lot
imagine if someone were able to design a really strong subcompact action that shot some super hot round like a .44 magnum derringer but with usable capacity
id love to see a micro uzi in 5.7. 40 round mag, insane fire rate and soft armor piercing with standard ammo
Found the HK MP7 fanboy.
opposite, im a P90 shill
Based. Is the thing about their magazines breaking/becoming shit if dropped fuddlore? I heard of that over a decade ago.
Also, with some really high speed operators using the p90, there's probably more data to be had about the .57's effectiveness, it's just part of classified as frick ops, so we have only have the fricking Fort Hood shooter's fratricidal rampage to go off of.
Ive got 5 of the mags and none of them have given me any problems. They're a lot simpler than people make them out to be
That's super good to know. I was a wee lad when I heard that. Starting to think the 2000s Canada airsoft/reserves community and fudds were drinking from the same glass.
Just make sure to get actual FN mags, not the aftermarket ones. I dont know diddly about the AM ones.
Absolutley. Pic completely unrelated.
Does the mp7 use p90 ammo?
mp7 - 4.6x30mm
p90 - 5.7x28mm
Both 5.7 and 30 super carry are 50k psi chamber pressure. Or is there more to it than that?
I still wanna get a .22 tcm over a 5.7
>doesn't do the wounding tumble bit and probably worse barrier penetration but is in a jhp that fragments like a b***h
>I've seen both penetrate iiia armor and not penetrate it but .22 tcm seems more powerful, only side-by-side comparison of armor penetration I can recall is paul harrel's (https://youtu.be/vLCsQkEL9eQ)
>comes with a 9mm barrel too which I don't have anything in right now (can shoot the 9mm ammo I find digging through the dirt at my range)
>cheaper ammo, even if it's basically proprietary and the gun itself is more expensive and I can't even find one at msrp
probably won't be in a position financially to splurge on guns for a few years so hopefully prices will cool down and everything including .303 will be available and tcm will get saami certified by then
AHAHA! listening to /k/ about anything. This is the face they make when a /k/ poster comments in a thread.
I've been on PrepHole too long and thought it was another trannoid.
Bullet didn't do that. Looks like they kept him open to perform multiple wash-outs and pack his gay shit since perforated guts isnt kosher. I'm surprised he didn't go septic and shuffle off his mortal coil.
Bunch of hippie morons ITT If you don't shoot to kill the stupid Black person you blasted will sue you and try to take everything you own.
>unpacked, cleaned, and repacked every day
Why the frick do americans do this stupid shit? So you have to pay the doctor more or what?
Unlike the local witchdoctor approved to practice medicine by your communist state, American doctors are there to ensure the patient gets better.
I HATE SQUIGGERS
The organs in your abdomen are under pressure. Picture a water balloon. Poke a hole in it and it pushes out
The round probably cost more than the operation.
How about making a 5.7 revolver? Would that be based if it had like 10 rounds and a 6 inch barrel?
I guess if .22lr revolvers are a thing, why couldnt this besides price. Id like to see some more types of 5.7 before that though, Speers HP for it is dogshit
Now you're talking my language! It would open up a whole other area of the market, and with the extra long barrel, body armor might not be doing so well. That and it could be sold as a varmint gun
Well a five-svens barrel is 4.8" so itd need to be 6+ for any real gains.
Well this is a revolver, we can offer multiple lengths. A standard 4.8 inch, a 6 inch, a 8 inch, and if we're feeling spicy, a 10 inch. And offer a scope mount
P90 velocity out of a handgun, we're approaching autism that shouldn't be possible
Frick yea brother! While we're at it, let's go the whole way and make a longslide version of the ruger .57 with a 7, or 8 inch barrel! The spicer the round, the better the cycling.
kel tec need to make their own ammo for it too. make the gun as strong as possible and have some Kel Tec Bubbas hot pissing loads
Let's do that and just have more guns in 5.7 in general. Let's have RIA or someone make a 1911 or 2011 in 5.7, then we'll be playing with power!
no, just modernize the P90 to something not straight blowback, up the PSI to 70-80K.
That would explain why 5.7 was able to fight the aliens in Stargate lol
I'm in the camp that if FN just took a few years to do that, everyone would forget about SBR 5.56s and .300 cuckout for a lot of applications.
Yes, but then we'd be burning thru barrels every 500 rounds lol
sounds good to me
If they could lock the breech...
and convert to other straightwall cartridges in their mags...
that would mean I could put 10MM in a P90.
Which would mean I would stop at nothing to attain one.
make the use the hybrid casings so we can get some crazy PSI though.
Absolutley. Especially now that NATO is adopting the round. I think SIG will want to get in on this right quick, in case the army wants their modular M17s and M18s to be adapted to the new caliber. Or more likley, euro armies shopping for a new pistol in .57 will have gun manufacturers finally pulling their fingers out of their asses.
So tell Kel-Tec to make it. They already made a "Pistol" from a P90 mag with a 10" barrel
Kel Tek would be crazy and autistic enough to do it. As for the cylinder gap issue, they could make it 10.5 inches to reach the same velocity as a p90
Yes.
Big Irons for the bastard great great grandchildren of Texas red and the notches on their plate carriers numbering a whole glock mag of 9mms stopped.
The cylinder gap might interfer with it reaching it's normal velocities, but idk.
Yet this fat gut homosexual is still breathing. This fat piece of shit was too obese for a regular non invasive surgery.
Still not enough to kill outright and like Clint from Thunder ranch says: you can be killed by a dead person
Has anyone done a side-by-side measurement of muzzle flip on this vs a 9? Like slo-mo on a common background. When I watch the videos it looks like barely a bump.
Honestly this sort of confirms my belief that a bottlenecked case will always outperform a straightwalled one. My only gripe is that the bottleneck of a 5.7 is too conservative. If you'd like to compare, look at a 5.7 case and compare it's shape to a 7.62x39 round. The bottleneck is so comparable that it just looks to be a scaled down 7.62x39 casing. Basically, in terms of ballistics it's not extreme enough. Consider that 5.56 and 7.62x54R (nugget food) actually has fairly the same level of bottleneck, as well as with .50 BMG. Any coincidence that they're all beloved and well-performing cartridges?
With that in mind, we need a deeper bottleneck for a pistol round like 5.7 to match the incline of 5.56. It may not tumble like 5.56 does but it's sure to be a higher performing round than current 5.7 ammunition.
If anyone reloads wildcat ammunition, especially those who deal in autistic meme competitions trying to see how fast a .22 bullet can go, please try to make this. Make a scaled down casing that resembles a 5.56's bottleneck, probably use a .22 or .17 for the bullet, and test it out on some ballistic gel and slabs of meat, I'd very much like to see what it would do.
Also someone post the .17 Moon Orbital image because I seem to have lost it, was going to attach it to this post.
Up the pressure of 5.7 to 80k, use the new hybrid casing and make a few billion.