Wouldn’t folding Wagner into the Russian MoD just weaken the effectiveness of Wagner troops? Wagner troops preformed noticeably better than the Russian troops since they had better equipment and a better leadership structure that allow local commanders in Independence in operations.
That's the point.
Wagner were intentionally fed to the Bakhmut grinder by the MoD so they'd be worn down and could be absorbed into the official structure without a threat of chimping out. MoD were playing the long con with them.
Yes, and Priggy made the misstep of saying yes. He was thinking only short term: he gets to win Bakhmut when the army couldn't, he gets Putin's praise and more mob control. Meanwhile it destroyed the organization.
>Wouldn’t folding Wagner into the Russian MoD just weaken the effectiveness of Wagner troops? Wagner troops preformed noticeably better than the Russian troops since they had better equipment and a better leadership structure that allow local commanders in Independence in operations.
Dictatorships don't see armies like stable democracies do. They see them as a potential threat, so they must be kept weak and disorganized. Wagner was proving hard to control, so they were going to absorb them into MoD. Who cares if it lesses army effectiveness? Putin's #1 priority is to not be killed.
Democracies do see armies as a threat: the threat is that an army becomes a political force and not just a military one, policy is designed around it. But the army is often the source of a dictator's legitimacy, so it is inherently political in many dictatorships, and that makes it a political opponent.
>worn down and could be
>worn down and cubed
>Wouldn’t folding Wagner into the Russian MoD just weaken the effectiveness of Wagner troops?
Why? Wagner has always been an asset of the state. It was created to do grey zone deniable stuff. That is no longer possible.
>Wagner troops preformed noticeably better than the Russian troops
Did they? Seems like the remains of the VDV & Naval infantry did most of the heavy lifting. Wagner just supplied meat.
This. Master Chef Priggy utilised state assets to maximise his own position. He had little to do with its combat operation. At least initially he was just supposed to control it on paper to distance the group from Putin/FSB.
Possibly. That weak is wearing quite thin though now.
I think really it's core reason for existing was allowing boots on the ground without having to say to the Russian people that they were at war, it's been forgotten now but the idea of conscripts fighting outside of of a war of defence was a complete no no in Russian society. Putin was not able, and didn't really try, to overcome this until necessity forced his hand. Turns out Russians are a lot more submitted than he had anticipated.
>3rd element - experienced operators - best of the best, veterans. Best soldiers in the world.
Yeah no. Most pre 2022 Wagner recruits were 45 year old former bouncers given 3 months military training at an FSB camp. Unlike the rest of the Russian army they had some experience in Syria, but they were never elite.
>Why?
Becuase they showed themselves to, while far from stellar, be better at combat than Russian Army units. Mostly by dint of having at least a semblance of inter-unit coordination and aggressive spirit.
Folding them into MoD sturctures is going to neatly remove all of that.
They charged a bunch of penal units into Ukrainian positions then shelled the shit out of them before following up with more troops. And still managed to eat through an entire corps worth of men. Wagner in Bakhmut basically boiled down to "throw men at it then spam artillery."
Wagner has pretty consistently gotten its shit rocked in Africa when it's bothered to actually fight instead of just cutting deals with the people they've been hired to fight.
>They charged a bunch of penal units into Ukrainian positions then shelled the shit out of them before following up with more troops. And still managed to eat through an entire corps worth of men.
Yes. What you don't realise is that this puts them decently above what the rest of the Russian Army has proven capable of.
Fagner's reputation was always that of a bunch of psychopathic criminals. And in retarded Russian minds that equated to "better/elite soldiers" which they spread throughout the internet like wildfire..
Ensuring internal security is always paramount in authoritarian regimes. They care more about Wagner being an immediate threat than they care about winning in Ukraine.
this
Ever since Girkov got arrested, I'm starting to suspect that Putin has accepted that he can't properly win his war in Ukraine by any definition and is now focusing on ensuring his own survival
Yeah they're slowly moving towards a Russia where this war never happened
Well, Putin's options are having them either serve as a couple tens of thousands of extra cannon fodder for the MoD, or they retain their strength and potentially use that strength to attack him (again). The former is the obvious choice.
>allow independence in operations
think about it
Wagner especially has a role as a "definitely not Russian" army to go meddle in Africa, so I think they have a good chance to keep existing.
They could even pin the blame of Prigo's death on the Ukies and declare him a hero or some shit
>performed better
in what way? taking over some urban ruins in 9 months isn't a good indicator
>Wagner troops preformed noticeably better than the Russian troops
No they didn't.
>and a better leadership structure that allow local commanders in Independence in operations.
No they used the same tactics as the other penal units.
What's up with is fucking revisionism trying make Wagner look like an elite army when they used prisoners and human wave attacks?
For Russia that is an elite army
They are a step above the regular Russian Army.
They're seen as largely responsible for Russia's only noteworthy victory in over a year at this point.
They used human wave attacks and succeeded, while regular army failed.
Wagner consisted of 4 elements.
1st element - Zeks - prison population - ~60-50% - they were used as a disposable meat for meat assaults
2nd element - volunteers - these were volunteers, extensively trained by experienced operators. Better motivation, better pay, better training. They followed Zeks after zeks discovered enemy positions.
3rd element - experienced operators - best of the best, veterans. Best soldiers in the world. Around a few thousand of them. In Bakhmut they were sent to capture positions, they DIDNT backed down. Never.
>Best soldiers in the world
X
Best soldiers in the Russian world, definitely (note: Russian world denotes only Russia and Belarus).
>they DIDNT backed down
>Best soldiers in the world. Around a few thousand of them. In Bakhmut they were sent to capture positions, they DIDNT backed down. Never.
Okay but what about that time they got absolutely shitstomped by an AC-130 in Syria
So...what was the fourth element?
commanders, logistics, arty and shit
The internet shill teams
>Best soldiers in the world.
For the best soldiers in the world they sure seem to eat shit against methed up militias and Islamists in Africa an awful lot.
>What's up with is fucking revisionism trying make Wagner look like an elite army when they used prisoners and human wave attacks?
Before the Ukraine war they were mostly ex Russian armed forces, better equipped, better trained, and on missions to fuck up Africans for minerals. After the war, Priggy (RIP!) got the idea to use prisoners as suicide units, and they massively swelled the ranks of Wagner.
Wagner won their fight
The army didn't
Hypothesis: the wagner leader faked his own death as part of the deal that he made at the end of the wagner rebellion. He did this to save his own skin and let someone else die in his place instead.
That's the whole idea. Can't have an effective fighting force that doesn't answer to Putin since they might try to coup him.
The Russian Ministry of Defense have their own PMC called Redut. They can fold Wagner assets into that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redut_(company)
There's also Shoigu's Patriot and the Gazprom's Fakel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(company)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fakel_(company)
>Wagner troops preformed noticeably better than the Russian troops
This is an absolute lie. Also most of the "wagner" troops that got massacred in Bakhmut were cannon fodder they snatched from prison, not their own people. If "perfoming noticeably better" means "suffering alarming amounts of losses" then you'd be correct.
they wasted lives but they got (some) results
None of any note. Stop shoving glavset propaganda up your ass, you god damn fuckup.
Bakhmut is notable.
How? Its only use was as a kacap killing field, it holds no strategic advantage (and they still haven't taken it)
My brother serves in 93rd. Says they respected fagner because they fought noticeably better.
Ironically, fagner also had special detachments made for sole purpose of hunting elements from 93rd.
So there was mutual respect.
>made up anecdotal evidence by some dejected kacap subhuman
Not biting, you piece of shit.
Here's the patch he gave me
Here's his van when he visited me last time
slava ukraini
That's how AoE2 used to hand out first place crowns before DE. Get the most kills? Here's a crown. Lost the most dudes? Here's a crown.
I wouldn't call Fallujah human wave tactic.
The coalitions death toll was far too low for starters.
They all become cube in end
If civilian deaths aren’t a concern, cluster munitions and CAS are definitely grid cleansers. That said, I wouldn’t call mechanized infantry who lost 107 total vs 1500+ insurgent deaths a human wave.
>Government is inefficient, bloated, corrupt
>ancient unbending command structure focuses on using human waves
>outsource tip-of-the-spear work to PMC
>So effective that they could coup
There's your answer. For those in power, a threat is a threat, and it is better to self sabotage your long term success if it means saving face today.
>this moron unironically thinks the US used human wave attacks at fallujah
Here's cool tattoo he made. You might recognize the regiment logo there.
That's great, it's still anecdotal evidence.
I trust his judgement, though. And he has seen some shit. Gave me russian plate carrier with plates he took of a dead ruskie, and I have no idea what to do with it.
Well your options are either
a) keep it
b) sell it
I say keep it since your bro gave it to you and if something happens to him you'll probably regret getting rid of it. If that doesn't bother you there's good money to be made selling war trophies on ebay.
It's not about the quality of troops but how you could use them.
Monke has tons of mobiks and conscripts but despite what the internet may tell you, they tend to keep them away from the most dangerous tasks and places.
They do that not only because mobiks morale is low but also their families may not like the outcome of unlimited mobik warfare. Instead ziggers need to use regular troops in all sorts of suicidal attacks.
Meanwhile Priggo with his prison recruitment was able to wage war like its a tabletop game - just throw your trash tier units at the enemy line to probe them or just keep your opponent busy, while your valuable units could close in at get the job done.
War is not a game
>/pol/
>CIA
Admit that 4chan is basically composed of low iq Americans and people from nearby countries. They just have environment where they were born and raised so now they got used to it and highly likely to project it on the whole world.
>War is not a game
No shit you dumb moron. War is not a game but being able to wage a war like you're playing a game opens a lot of tactical possibilities that regular commanders could only dream about.
Chess pieces don't have families back home or skills that can be useful after the war - you can sacrifice them at any moment, as long as the tradeoff is nett positive. It works similarly way with Wagner ex-prisoner conscripts.
>families may not like
Oh no, not the families, lmao.
>t-they'll riot
Holy kek, lmao.
I can't believe the head of wagner is dead, in a perfectly legitimate and unfortunate airplane crash
/pol/s cope is that he was killed by the CIA. As if russia being so weak they allow CIA to kill their hero units is any better than putin ordering his death. Both make russia look incredibly weak but 4chan is spamming the CIA angle like it's some kind of "gotcha". Hilarious seeing their copes.
>say you are incompetent
or
>say your enemy is stronger than you
It's the moscva all over again
Seriously? I would have thought CIA would have wanted Priggy alive and in command for as long as possible. Biggest acne Putin has ever had on his ass.
CIA wants Putin at power because he is incompetent. Prigo was going for presidency and would probably get it.
>In an alternate timeline, Prig Boss takes over Russia and renames it to Outer Hotdog
the CIA knows better than to go around meddling in any given mercenary group's business.
>criminals all on the take
>in your inestimable wisdom, you order the one actually getting the job done to be made subordinate to another one, demonstrably incompetent
>the effective one running a transnational protection racket now thinks he's obliged to have his profits skimmed off by another lackey who already has his own pmc including the entire army, which is being thrown in a woodchipper
There were a bunch of firefights over MOD troops trying to pressgang Wagners into their chain of command. Clearly the compliance juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Something something rocks in glass houses.
It's not about effectiveness. It's about securing the safety of the Tsar from insurgent forces with leadership structures outside of the MoD's control.
>Our military had to use the same human wave tactics in Fallujah
No they didn't you dumb gorilla moron
moron, you dont even know what THE FUCK yer talking about and you got owned by replies, answer please vatmoron bronwie???
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1695044436038693017
>join russian army to fight for your motherland
>finish two week training and get deployed
>your officer sells you to a private army
>"you go with wagner now"
>???
>whatever, you're fighting the same enemy
>reach the front
>the enemy has been defending this line for months
>"now you walk forward"
>???
>die
>get buried with full honors in your homeland
>two months later your grave is turned into an empty parking lot
>can't enter vylнalla because odin can't find your grave
imagine being a russian. when I do this it fills me with great sadness.
But this war is no longer about winning, is about keeping putin's regime afloat, an a strong wagner is clearly a threat to putin's regime
>Wagner troops preformed noticeably better than the Russian troops
They didn't
Is it true that they've bulldozed over the Wagner cemetery we saw last year? I need webms bros
I feel like this is something they came up with to start getting people pissed off at the current administration.
We'll be looking at a full force "MoD EATS BABIES" tier shit that the Russian public will eat up by the pound.
Keep reposting that image, chaos is fun.
Looks like it. I wonder if Priggy’s shill farms will turn on Russia
They haven't been his for years now.
Not for years, but for 2 months, right after the coup de fail.
Here's the post: https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1695044436038693017
All of Wagner is being unperson'd right now, Stalin style.
More news at 11.
Sources:
https://twitter.com/MirovichMedia/status/1695049443077145080
https://twitter.com/ioannZH/status/1695039939505766561