Why are there so many bullpups in use by both sides of the war?
At first I thought it was just because they're desperate to get their hands on anything modern they could. If you have Fort-224s on hand why not use them? But there are a lot of serviceable traditional layout rifles being put in conversion kits too.
>inb4 ackchyually most still use normal rifles
Yes, I'm not saying that they make up a majority, just that there's a lot more than usually you see elsewhere.
Why so many bullpups in Russo-Ukrainian War?
Why are there so many bullpups in use by both sides of the war?
Because it's the superior kind of rifle, duh
The obvious questions why don't they exclusively use bullpups then?
At least part of it is those conversion kits give optics mounting options the rifles don't have natively and there's a lot of suppressors being used, which increases OAL.
>The obvious questions why don't they exclusively use bullpups then?
Because they're poor.
Why don't non-poor nations use bullpups then?
This just in, Australia, Austria, Croatia, UK, Slovenia, Singapore, Oman, Israel, and Ireland are now the richest countries in the world.
Australians are quite literally the wealthiest people in the world
Australium only exists in TF2 lore anon, Australians aren't actually the richest people on the planet.
Australians are actually the wealthiest people. It’s not the wealthiest country but Australians are on average the wealthiest people in the world.
Australians live like the rust belt we all make fun of. Drugs are everywhere in white aussie neighborhoods, only the Chinese students have it good down under
Lmao anon trying to "own" someone by naming some of the highest HDI countries.
Only retards are intentionally obtuse. They aren't the top 9 richest countries in the world. There are thus countries that both are richer than some/many/all of the options on that list and don't issue bullpups as standard. So "They poor" is a dumb argument, and while its a troll, OP doesn't seem to actually know shit and shouldn't be misled.
>honest people should not be misled
You are a credit to the human race
Australia is a country of 25 million with the 14th largest economy in the world so....yeah. The government can afford to equip troops with decent shit.
And yet 12 of the 13 economies larger than it don't use a bullpup as their standard issue rifle. Which was the point.
>And yet the largest economies don't use bullpups as standard issue
That's because none of them have been in a major peer war in a long time, so they've gotten lazy with innovation. Sticking with tried-and-true is just easier in peacetime.
During war, cold or hot, innovation skyrockets. Expect to see many more bullpups then, like in Ukraine. The Cold War gave us a taste of such innovation.
Singapore isn't just one of the richest countries, it's the SECOND richest country after Luxembourg. Your ironic post is ironically correct.
Read thread before posting.
Because they're dumb.
Because this: -----
Established manufacturing and production capabilities. Why did the Germans use the K98 in both WWI and WWII?
more seriously there is no standardization on the UA side, everything they've got is ad hoc done under pressure in a hurry. they'll take whatever they can get, but that also means that those who can pick get to choose what they want too not just what higher up command/bureaucrats decide. makes for interesting dynamics this war even if logistically everything is harder for them.
Mostly this. In peace, countries care more about standardisation, and the AR and similar rifles have a lot of development and industry behind them. This drives down costs, makes getting alternate manufacturers easy and gives you a lot of options for the aftermarket.
So a lot of bullpups that did enter service get abandoned not because bullpups are bad but because they're not as well supported. But when there's a war on, and you don't care about standardisation so long as it doesn't wreck your supply chain, and enforcing what units do themselves is less of a priority. So they can tailor it as they like.
As opposed to what every euro army that doesn't use bullpups does? Forests and cities aren't exactly rare.
>integrally suppressed AUG
I have a mighty need.
fr that suppressor is just good design
Exactly. In a war, hot or cold, you seek every advantage you can get. Military innovation skyrockets.
Bullpups provide a small advantage over conventional. In peacetime this advantage doesn't matter much, sticking to tried-and-true is just easier. But in war small advantages make much more sense.
>State provided AR-15 if USA was socialist.
FPBP. form factor of a bullpup is better for mechanized/urban warfare
Most of the fighting in Ukraine has taken place on open fields as well as cities, so there are arguments for both bullpups and conventional rifles in this conflict. The US military's new XM7 rifle would be an absolute killer in Bakhmut.
Sight lines arent that long buddy, most engagements are happening at the normally expected combat ranges.
The xm7 and its scope arent magic.
>The US military's new XM7 rifle would be an absolute killer in Bakhmut.
Wouldn't (isn't) the MSBS Grot rifle be an absolute killer in Ukraine? It comes as both a bullpup and standard rifle, and also carbine and DMR
Pretty sure the bullpup MSBS ceased/never got into fullscale production.
Theres definitely some of that, though it seems more individuals using that side of it for content to get money/donations rather than active government sponsored propaganda. Valgear comes to mind, and a few other smaller time ones.
Not morally wrong to do, so long as you don't fuck with opsec, and its often interesting content but it is still milking that hero worship aspect.
grot bullpup is kill
because the future is bullpups
and always will be
some of those trenches look pretty cramped so a bullpup would be much more convenient there
OP here, I don't think I did a good job of phrasing my question.
I understand what bullpups are used for/better at.
My questions was more why are they used in this war when the same factors (Forests, Urban, Trenches, Mechanized warfare etc) are present in other countries and other wars but you don't see bullpups there in the same numbers or at all.
Is there some other special factor? Is the RU-UA war indicative that others might change their opinions on bullpups if they weren't so geared towards the Middle East and COIN? Etc.
lets think of some random conflicts
iraqi units use that czech bullpup
french units in afgan used bullpup
british used bullpups
so i think you just never noticed all the AK bullpups before. turns out bullpups turn up everywhere
I don't think there have been any wars for a very long time that have combined all those factors at once. Another factor I suppose is that it's taking place in Europe and most bullpup rifles come from somewhere around there.
A lot of bullpups got donated because Western forces that were using them are in the process of transitioning back to a standard configuration rifle which means a lot of surplus, and you also have Ukraine producing them domestically with a license which means you have another big supply.
nah theres more bullpups because they're taking anything they can get and theres bullpups out there that nations are giving out
They did get given undisclosed numbers of FN 2000s by Belgium and AUGs by Australia. But more relevantly, its not just desperation. They're actively converting existing, functioning rifles into bullpups. If they just wanted guns, they don't need to do that.
My unqualified layman's opinion is that Soviet/Russian equipment is far more cramped so having a bulpup probably makes more sense if that's the supposed advantage.
bulpups show up all the time it just depends on what military issues them.
the malyuk is a domestic conversion so probably a good amount of support unless they're dropping it because of the war.
Bullpups are not just better at certain things, they're better at everythings.
they are used in this war because both sides are using literally anything they can get their hands on
You're thinking about this wrong. Why are ARs so pushed by the US when Bullpups are generally superior?
Is it just to make them different? Is it because the entire US industry is stuck on "AR good" when the reality is just "AR cheaper, less parts". I don't know, but multiple countries within Europe seems hell bent on making several bullpups, so they must have some benefit I'm not seeing outside of a longer barrel/length ratio.
Better weight balance is also a benefit. Less fatigue and faster target switching.
>Is it because the entire US industry is stuck on "AR good" when the reality is just "AR cheaper, less parts"
Yes. You answered your own question
bulpup ak better for trench, urban and mechanized combat than non bulpup ak.
Russia is/was big into bullpups.
this is the first war where (at least some) regular troops have suppressors, which are much more comfortable to use on bullpups.
what bullpups have russians been using?
I was wondering this too. Besides the specialist weapons like pic related, I've seen like 1 photo of a Malyut in the hands of a Wagner merc and most likely that's something one guy looted.
What a fucking unit of a suppressor on that thing, makes me lol and lmao every time i see it
only rusnigs could manage to make a bullpup and immediately get rid of the platforms biggest benefit
One of the benefits of a bullpup is that you can stick a fuckhuge suppressor like that on it and not have the overall length just be ridiculous.
>implying the length of that rifle with suppressor isn't already ridiculous
Its a 50 caliber weapon dipshit, imagine how long it would be if it were a conventional rifle.
>Lots of loading and unloading from vehicles
Gee OP it's a fucking mystery.
Like you said the Tavor/X95 is readily available and also domestically produced.
The Malyuk was initially intended for special forces and law enforcement, where a bullpup design's advantages would actually matter.
I have no idea if this is true, but given that a substantial amount of components that used to be AK parts are now redesigned for this gun, they might be building them from scratch instead of converting them from already existing AK-74s.
Foreign rifles like the F2000 were donated by various countries that just happened to have bullpups in service or inventory.
The Rus bullpup that used 12.7 seemed cool
most of the 'issues' that people have memorized about bullpups are not really issues at all with a military rifle.
you could give infantrymen m1 garands, and as long as the platoon still had 240s and 249s it wouldnt matter at all
bullpups are fine fighting rifles
Has the range and firepower of an assault rifle with the handling qualities of an SMG which is very useful when you are clearing buildings, trenches and clambering out of the back of tiny vehicles.
Maybe it's simply because bullpups are superior, and the reason why we in the west haven't figured that out is because we haven't been in a peer war in a long time, so we've gotten lazy and lost our innovation spirit.
If another Cold War happens, I bet we'll see innovation go to dizzying speeds again like last Cold War, and bullpups will start popping up left, right and center across the world.
>we've gotten lazy and lost our innovation spirit.
Whole post but this especially.
>we've gotten lazy and lost our innovation spirit
It's not that stuff isn't being developed, it's that the brass doesn't adopt it.
Just look at the XM5. We could have had bullpups or telescoped polymer ammo. What we got was overloaded, necked down .308 that needs a partially steel cased cartridge and a supressor to be usable.
I still don't get how the SIG won. You might as well have adopted nothing.
>nobody gave a fuck about bullpups during GWOT, one of the few times when small arms kinda sorta (but not really) mattered
>somehow they will be a game changer in WW3
We weren't fighting a peer threat at the time. So innovation still didn't matter too much. A peer competition will light the innovative fire under our asses. Cold War gave us the greatest surge of bullpups so far.
>>GWOT, one of the few times when small arms kinda sorta (but not really) mattered
That kinda defeats your argument. Small arms innovation really wasn't much pursued at that time.
I'd imagine a bullpup would become pretty appealing if you had to spend most of your day squeezed into tiny armored vehicles or trenches.
Why does the Tavor have a handguard unlike most rifles?
The cutlass grip? You can swap it to a standard pistol grip on the newer Tavor models.
On that note, I wanna see some Tavor usage
Soviet IFVs are tiny and the rear hatches look awkward as hell. I can't imagine what it'd be like to try to dismount while carrying an M16A2 or (god help you) a full length battle rifle.
now imagine it being twisted and on fire and youre not the one sitting nearest the rear
because for a few hundred you can convert regular AK insides with bullup parts, AND then you can mount accessories on it. You know stuff like scopes.
According to the creator of Malyuk, bullpup was the only way to make AK precise in full auto mode, especially in 7.62. Bullpup is the superior scheme when you have soldiers with more than 100 IQ, unfortunately, it's the main downside of it.
virgin fancy bodykit malyuk vs chad crude blackstorm
I can't wait for blackstorm kits to be made in the us.
>nobody uses tall mounts in an actual w-
His face sits on the dust cover. If anything that's more like a lower 1/3rd.
Where to get malyuk body kit?
I've always wondered why most bullpups have that shitty hand guard? Hellion, MDRX, Tavor X95 SBR doesn't have one and they look definitely better.
you can use it as another point of contact by bracing it against your offhand's forearm.
It is superior to a traditional trigger guard, imo.
The Ukrainian service rifle is the "Malyuk", a bullpup AK-74
Its a service rifle of Ukraine. The service rifle is the AK-74.
Its going to be really interesting to see what the ukrainians think of the various gifted weapons theyve been given.
Yeah. I'm really hoping for some weapon autist to write a book of first hand accounts, or even just post-war standardization and rearmament reports being public.
I tried a while back to collate a list of just all the primary, bullet firing weapons they've either started with, looted in large numbers, or got given and its ridiculous. I gave up before even getting to all the small scale stuff that has shown up through private purchases and/or civilian/militia use.
AK-47s/Ms/74/12s and various Us, Malyuk, Forts 221 224 227 and 228, AUGs, FALs, FNCs, Mosins, F2000s, SCARs, Minimis. FN MAGs, C7s, C8s, M70s, Bren 2s, Vz 58s, UK vz. 59, SVDs, ZVI Falcons, AA-52s, Benelli M4s, MG3s/MG 42/59s, M2 Brownings, M82s, AX308s, Tantals, MSBS, UKM-2000P, WKW Wilks, MCX, M14s, G3s, SUB-200s, Mossberg 500s, a bunch of different AR-15 patterns.
given the degree of niche propaganda going on, I'm kind of surprised "I'm a frontline Ukrainian hero and this is the gear I use and why, thank you NATO" hasn't become a thing... unless that's what this thread is?
hell, "I'm a member of glorious totally not Nazi Azov, check out my Tavor" would do the rounds
I suppose they're taking what they can get.
Readings not your strong suit, huh?
Is there, perhaps, something you're missing?
OP literally address your point and why it doesn't explain everything in the second and third sentence of his post.
Lol second and fourth. Maybe countings not MY strong suit.
I thought x
>I suppose x
This it disagreement.
Are you actually retarded? The bit they "thought" agreed with you, but then the fact that they're converting existing a lot of rifles into bullpups proved that it can't be just what they thought and you supposed. They literally pointed out why what you supposed was inadequate in the OP.
ESL huh? These conversions are few and far between. It's not worth mentioning or debating.
Right thanks for letting us know your opinion has no value.
Because they're all stuck with backwards 1970's garbage.
What are you talking about? All I see are either AKs or some AR-15 variants if its on Ukie side.
The "we are lucky that they are so stupid" picture is the only pic I've seen of that Ukrainian bullpup in action.
I hope Malyuk kits make there way stateside after the war, would be cool to have one.
This will make ameri-mutts seethe, but its because of the obvious length and weight-balance savings of a bullpup design. It has trade offs and disadvantages sure but it has massive advantages in arm fatigue, CQB, storage, and transportation applications.