Why no APS?

Why is nobody in Ukraine using APS?
It's basically just a Doppler radar the police uses (that costs $2k).
You could basically rig a radar speed gun to turn it into a drone detector.
It's not difficult or expensive, why is nobody capable of using it?

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  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The tech doesn’t work. It’s been worked on by various countries for decades and if it hasn’t panned out by now it never will.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      How does it not work? Radar can see birds so it should see drones. Then just shoot it down with whatever.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >It's not difficult or expensive, why is nobody capable of using it?
        but it is
        >Why is nobody in Ukraine using APS?
        because its expensive and difficult with drones being a bigger threat
        so they would rather spend their money on other stuff

        >Radar can see birds so it should see drones. Then just shoot it down with whatever.
        moron

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      UNKNOWN TECHNOLOGY BLYAT!

      Christ, you Mongol rapebabies are pathetic.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        The USSR invented the tech you imbecile.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Why aren't they using it? The closest thing is T-90's eyes.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Because it never worked. Other countries worked on it and no one has yet to produce an actually working, reliable system. Soviets developed Drozd in 1978 and other countries had their own programs under development ever since (ie Trophy) but they simply don’t work well enough for anyone to seriously invest into them. It’s getting to 50 fricking years and if the tech hasn’t matured enough to use by now it never will.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >but they simply don’t work well enough for anyone to seriously invest into them.
              Leo 2a8, Lynx ,Trophy Ready Kits for M1A2 SEPv3, K2 Black Panther and etc.....

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              https://i.imgur.com/2xE0Bhl.jpg

              Why is nobody in Ukraine using APS?
              It's basically just a Doppler radar the police uses (that costs $2k).
              You could basically rig a radar speed gun to turn it into a drone detector.
              It's not difficult or expensive, why is nobody capable of using it?

              The tech doesn’t work. It’s been worked on by various countries for decades and if it hasn’t panned out by now it never will.

              >if the tech hasn’t matured enough to use by now it never will.
              It took 70 years to effectively make LED lights blue and then another 15 years to make LED screens. Now almost every monitor and TV produced uses an LED display.

              APC technology is being tested successfully today and will likely take another decade to enter service.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              i doubt it was already repaired because of reasons i won't go into detail about
              it does take a lot to make the IDF write off a vehicle though. since the vehicles use modular armor - if the hull is intact a repair is possible.

              the achzarit for example that burned down - can be repaired, but is probably a write off because the IDF wouldn't want to put the money for rebuilding a vehicle they want to remove from service. i would give better examples but can't because opsec.
              i have seen a D9 that was completely burnt down be fixed up and sent back to gaza. it was just tracks and a blade when i saw it being repaired.

              i want to say they probably fricked up one namer in a video where they fire at it's LFP from really close
              but i also saw another namer that was hit in its hydraulic door that shouldn't stop anything but small arms, and it did not pen.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Why aren't they using it
            There wad T-80 with APS lost in Ukraine. One of the excremental crap they paraded around exhibitions.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Could have fooled me considering it hasn't been seen in their repertoire throughout this clownshow

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            He is right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drozd

            >You could basically rig a radar speed gun to turn it into a drone detector.
            They can't detect drones or drop munition by design.

            >They can't detect drones or drop munition by design.
            They can if they can detect ATGMs. They were just not programmed for drones yet.

            >It's not difficult or expensive, why is nobody capable of using it?
            but it is
            >Why is nobody in Ukraine using APS?
            because its expensive and difficult with drones being a bigger threat
            so they would rather spend their money on other stuff

            >Radar can see birds so it should see drones. Then just shoot it down with whatever.
            moron

            How is it difficult or expensive? It's just a Doppler radar that should at least work against drones.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >They can if they can detect ATGMs. They were just not programmed for drones yet.
              They don't detect ATGM, they detect anything moving between 100-1000 m/s (some can detect up to 1700m/s).
              And that's by design because going below the 100m/s cutoff is technically far harder as it would need a "smart" radar. So no, they can't without a completely new design from scratch relying on far better software.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Weather Doppler radars can detect slow birds.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Weather Doppler radars can detect slow birds.
                nobody is fricking saying that radar cant detect such things yet you keep repeating this shit as if this changes anything about the way APS works
                Are you implying that you want APS to shoot at every Slow object?
                I am sure Tank crews will love it when their APS goes off due to some fricking Bird flying by

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Any doppler can do it but weather radars don't have the problem of false positives or decide what's a target and calculate a firing solution in milliseconds. APS needs filter anything slow to avoid false positives. They aren't even comparable, APS uses a radar in almost the worst case and the use of hard-kill should be as minimal as possible.

                Drones are fast, so can be detected just by the speed. So can be dropped grenades.

                [...]
                [...]
                >if the tech hasn’t matured enough to use by now it never will.
                It took 70 years to effectively make LED lights blue and then another 15 years to make LED screens. Now almost every monitor and TV produced uses an LED display.

                APC technology is being tested successfully today and will likely take another decade to enter service.

                APS technology is decades old.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >APS technology is decades old.
                Ok that doesn't mean its effective enough yet to pass procurement tests. There's multiple levels of technological development that still need years of R&D to make the system reliable.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Trophy passed. It was supposed to be part of SEP v4 before E3/A3 became the new goal.
                And E3/A3 will have Trophy folded into it.
                Do your lies ever bother you? Or is this your personal crusade?

                Russian APS and even PDS have proven to just not work very well. Look how quickly Russia removed Shtora from their T-90s after they were deployed.

                As for the West, there simply just aren't enough APS systems to go around right now because there was never any priority to outfit their entire tank fleets en masse with them.

                Russia oversells as always.

                The only Merkava "lost" in combat (to be later recovered and repaired) was on the first day of the conflict and was disabled by drone dropped munitions. Every RPG/ATGM attack recorded against Trophy-equipped vehicles with the system operational shows nonexistent or minimal damage.

                [...]
                Get back in the tunnel Hajeeb.

                You're probably arguing with a Turdie, whose country can't finance a tank fleet with APS. He knows heavy armor is impossible for his country, so he wants to tell himself and the world it's impossible for their countries, too. It's a waste of time; he doesn't want to get at the truth of anything.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >You're probably arguing with a Turdie, whose country can't finance a tank fleet with APS. He knows heavy armor is impossible for his country, so he wants to tell himself and the world it's impossible for their countries, too. It's a waste of time; he doesn't want to get at the truth of anything.
                Nobody is claiming that you moronic turdie.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Lazy of you, to just repeat my insult. Must've hit close to home...

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Generally grenade drops are slow, less than 50 m/s at impact and from a blind angle for all current APS. Most FPV are even slower, less than 25 m/s, probably 10 m/s.
                You aren't detecting those without a APS with a decent "world model" or capable radar (pulse doppler with some way to filter faraway returns and get a decent vel vector estimation in real time) to avoid weird returns from vehicles (same or more speed and 'huge' RCS).
                EO/IR can be far better for APS on land but those aren't trivial.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >APS technology is decades old.
                merkava has been using them for close to a decade
                the SEP3 package on the M1 has brackets for mounting APS, several of them already have it
                the M1E3 will be including APS directly integrated into its turret armor as a modular package

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Israelis don’t actually use their APS and if they did it’d be good enough to pass trails everywhere else and everyone would be using them. The reason why the US Army hasn’t acquired them yet is because they don’t work. These things can work in theory, and can show interesting results in lab testing — but they’re simply not robust, reliable and safe enough to use in real-world deployment. It’s real when they they become standard equipment on the M1 or Leo2 but until then APS is just vaporware.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Israelis don’t actually use their APS
                you can literally see videos of them working
                they were already succefully tested in the field way back in 2014, which is why every merkava has them

                >The reason why the US Army hasn’t acquired them yet is because they don’t work.
                its already been installed on the SEP3, and it was considered effective enough that the M1E3 will have it permanently installed

                > It’s real when they they become standard equipment on the M1 or Leo2 but until then APS is just vaporware.
                SEP3 has brackets for mounting it, as mentioned above several M1s have been using it for a while now
                and the M1E3 will have it integrated directly rather than bolted on

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                The same thing that happened to the tanks. This is a wealth transfer. Ukraine is as corrupt as Russia is and if Gazprom wasn’t a clear indicator, we’re in on the grift. The war costs the U.S. taxpayer money and Ukraine gets a war paid for by a country cashing in on the “hey where did the $2 billion worth of shells go?” Or the “it was never sent in the first place, it never existed, that money went straight into domestic coffers and was counted as spent”

                You're clearly here to waste time as a shill

                >Israelis don’t actually use their APS
                you can literally see videos of them working
                they were already succefully tested in the field way back in 2014, which is why every merkava has them

                >The reason why the US Army hasn’t acquired them yet is because they don’t work.
                its already been installed on the SEP3, and it was considered effective enough that the M1E3 will have it permanently installed

                > It’s real when they they become standard equipment on the M1 or Leo2 but until then APS is just vaporware.
                SEP3 has brackets for mounting it, as mentioned above several M1s have been using it for a while now
                and the M1E3 will have it integrated directly rather than bolted on

                I'm interested too see if better integration means some kind of status indicator for the TC...
                Or maybe a larger space will be given for a more interceptor reloads. I don't know how that works so maybe it would become too complex.
                Oh and don't forget Turkey has put out demonstrators of Altay with APS, too.
                Although again, I have no idea if Turkey's promises like this should be respected.

              • 2 months ago
                Caius

                >picrel
                Based on ukraine's Zaslon, interestingly enough.
                https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/60922864/#q60942339

                Israelis don’t actually use their APS and if they did it’d be good enough to pass trails everywhere else and everyone would be using them. The reason why the US Army hasn’t acquired them yet is because they don’t work. These things can work in theory, and can show interesting results in lab testing — but they’re simply not robust, reliable and safe enough to use in real-world deployment. It’s real when they they become standard equipment on the M1 or Leo2 but until then APS is just vaporware.

                >The reason why the US Army hasn’t acquired them yet is because they don’t work.
                The US army has in fact acquired them:
                https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/61010714

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Israelis don’t actually use their APS and if they did it’d be good enough to pass trails everywhere else and everyone would be using them.

                If it is not American it does not exist the post.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                it works, we(israelis) use it and the americans and the germans are buying it
                though deliveries are delayed because of the war israel is in
                i personally replaced trophy components with ones meant for the US army on a namer

                >Israelis don’t actually use their APS
                you can literally see videos of them working
                they were already succefully tested in the field way back in 2014, which is why every merkava has them

                >The reason why the US Army hasn’t acquired them yet is because they don’t work.
                its already been installed on the SEP3, and it was considered effective enough that the M1E3 will have it permanently installed

                > It’s real when they they become standard equipment on the M1 or Leo2 but until then APS is just vaporware.
                SEP3 has brackets for mounting it, as mentioned above several M1s have been using it for a while now
                and the M1E3 will have it integrated directly rather than bolted on

                not every merkava has it. the mk3 trophy modernization wasn't accepted due to cost
                and the mk4 modernization wasn't completed yet so not every mk4 has trophy, but at some point they'll all have it.
                there is also upgrade plan for trophy itself but i won't get into it

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >APS goes off due to some fricking Bird flying by
                birds are pretty smart, they will learn fast that flying over tanks is a bad idea.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Any doppler can do it but weather radars don't have the problem of false positives or decide what's a target and calculate a firing solution in milliseconds. APS needs filter anything slow to avoid false positives. They aren't even comparable, APS uses a radar in almost the worst case and the use of hard-kill should be as minimal as possible.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >And that's by design because going below the 100m/s cutoff is technically far harder as it would need a "smart" radar.
                Doppler radars can detect walking man. 100-70m/s MINIMAL VELOCITY cut off is because of the safety. Minimal speed of teh threats wwere RPG rounds (down to 70m/s), if you go lower your APS can start shooting cars, spinning disks (aka car wheels, ventilators ets), soil thrown be explosions, even running men. And yes reduction of Doppler speed threshold needs more sophisticated sensors that can have better target resolution (not just something with speed moving approximately at the tank) and discriminate them from non targets.
                Designer of Arena mentioned in interview that beta version was full of false alarms and shot tree branches as tank rode near the trees. It required much tuning of teh radar modes and states, doppler speed been primary discrimination criteria.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                That's why simply said "smart" radar. IMO the technical difficulty to get a APS that can detect slow threats is ridiculously hard, near-autonomous driving level of complexity.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >near-autonomous driving level of complexity.
                Just stop.

                this moron must be baiting at this point

                Why are you coping moron?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Just stop.
                No. Even if it's a order of magnitude simpler it still is far complex than current cope doppler radars. If you have to turn off your APS for many situation then it's a POS, period.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >. IMO the technical difficulty to get a APS that can detect slow threats is ridiculously hard
                Its no about just detection its about low rate of false alarms: discrimination of threats from natural false targets (your own vehicles, troops, terrain, gun shots and explosions)

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Exactly, it's the worst case for any automatic kill system. CIWS or airborne defense system are far simpler by comparison.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                You shouldn't be getting false alarms for something that flies 800km/h. It just means your electronics are shit.

                https://i.imgur.com/l5v4ThJ.jpg

                >Just stop.
                No. Even if it's a order of magnitude simpler it still is far complex than current cope doppler radars. If you have to turn off your APS for many situation then it's a POS, period.

                It should be extremely simple with current AI.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                AI isn't a silver bullet, specially if it can kill your own people and journos/politicians will scream "DEADLY TERMINATOR"

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >You shouldn't be getting false alarms for something that flies 800km/h.
                That was before.
                Now with drones you have to deal with velocities of the 30-100 km/h that intersect with massive amount of false targets.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >drones
                Meh, M-SHORAD.
                An upgraded Avenger truck system, even.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Because it doesn’t work. No one’s APS works which is why no one has APS is wide deployment. If APS actually worked it would have been on the M1 and Leo2 years ago.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Why does it not work? Works for the cops.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >works for cops
                Please enlighten me as to what police force has an APS. No, it’s not just like a police radar gun. The ones strapped onto the dash of a police car aren’t any different from hand held ones. They don’t have 360 coverage. Even if they did, what good would that do? So you can see what objects are approaching the tank and how fast they are going. You need to have a hard kill device, because EW hardly works half the time against drones and doesn’t do shit for dumb missiles or grenades.

                Please keep in mind APS has been fully developed and rolled out on navy ships, in the form of CIWS. Those cost millions of dollars and are too big to fit on a tank. Unfortunately, anything less than that just won’t work to protect a tank. Maybe DARPA has a laser-based APS, but they’re not going to give anything like that to Ukraine.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >No one’s APS works which is why no one has APS is wide deployment
              What the frick is this schizo babble?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Western tanks largely never mounted APS despite having the capability to do so because Western armies never considered it a priority for the conflicts they expected to fight, and the third world armies they export to are too dirt cheap to shell out for proper APS, either.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Iron fist works

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                well, the new version does, allegedly

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Cope. Trophy's interception rate exceeds 90%.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        What about all the merkavas lost in Gaza? Is that the 10%?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >merkavas lost
          May we see them?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            You seriously didn't see the drone videos?

            There aren't any S300s deployed in Ukraine and if you want to know how Russian SAAMs perform against NATO aircraft I'd suggest you make a study of how well Saddam Hussein's worked.

            >There aren't any S300s deployed in Ukraine
            That's why nobody can fly planes in there?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >You seriously didn't see the drone videos?
              I'm sure you can post them.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous
              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Thank you.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              The only Merkava "lost" in combat (to be later recovered and repaired) was on the first day of the conflict and was disabled by drone dropped munitions. Every RPG/ATGM attack recorded against Trophy-equipped vehicles with the system operational shows nonexistent or minimal damage.

              Shalom

              Get back in the tunnel Hajeeb.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Shalom

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >all the merkavas
          I've seen one since the beginning of the war and dozens of attempts. So I'd say they're doing something right.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Yes?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          The issue with merkavas is that besides the 2 or 3 at the beginning of the conflict, while we know of a substantial number of tank crews injured or dead, the Markava like most modern tanks doesn't go ballistic even if penetration happens so you might have a few injuries and maybe a dead guy but we won't see much.

          Also merkavas have ERA panels and the Palis use homemade copies of the Iranian copies of a really shitty Russian tandem warhead design known for a very high failure rate.

          So it's extremely annoyingly hard to tell if there is penetration, if the sysrfailed to function, if the era did it's job or it APS did it job since at best we get a couple of seconds of video.

          So how effective Israeli APS is it's still a mystery.

          We know it's not always working but we don't know if it's working most often than not.

          Also messy environment and short distance engagements make it even more of an issue.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >So how effective Israeli APS is it's still a mystery.
            if it wasnt effective they would have stopped using it after the first field test
            the simplest way to tell if something is useless is just if the troops stop using it, but every version of the merkava after the first to have one has it installed

            its extremely effective

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Or you keep using it even if it doesn't work to make your enemies think it works.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You can fricking see it working in basically every zoomeredit Hamas propaganda film. It’s why /k/ keeps making fun of their ebin tank kill footage - most of it shows APS intercepting their homebrewRPGs

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >You can fricking see it working in basically every zoomeredit Hamas propaganda film.
              Then post it, never saw it working it their videos.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Are you moronic? Almost every video shows the warheads being intercepted a couple meters out

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Then post the video you fricking moron.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                NTA
                Hello moron-chama from Glorious Shithole.
                womp-womp
                Here comes your L

                This clip shall serve discussion well, by swatting down nonsense such as yours.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                none of these videos show trophy actually working moron-chama from Glorious Shithole.
                womp-womp
                Here comes your L

                its called firing artillery at suspected ATGM spots, firing MGs at any potential ATGM spots, and using mech infantry to offensively approach any possible ATGM site to force them to give up their position
                as well as basic things like staying in concealment and using the thermal sights

                >at suspected ATGM spots
                so every bush, house, tree, hill or any kind of cover, really great you moron

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >so every bush, house, tree, hill or any kind of cover, really great you moron
                its literally the same tactic used by infantry to fight other infantry
                the enemy is often concealed, so you fire at suspected enemy locations and perform recon by fire
                artillery missions can and will be fired against bushes if its a suspected machine gun nest

                it would actually be easier to flush out ATGMs than machine gun nests because a missile launcher is a fragile fibeglass tube mounted on a tripod
                that will prioritze fleeing the firezone over going to ground due to how fragile their weapon is

                its literally WW2 tactics, blinding and fixing fires from artillery before maneuvering

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >its literally WW2 tactics
                good you confirmed it's moronic and that you have no idea what you are talking about

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >good you confirmed it's moronic and that you have no idea what you are talking about
                >suppress targets with artillery
                >advance around targets while they are being fixed in place
                defeating ATGMs is mostly a matter of training and combined arms

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                shut up moron you have no idea what you are talking about
                probably warriortard

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              It's practically never clear if it's aps,
              Doing something, successful hit, ERA panel doing it's job, or the common malfunction of the 2 tandem charges not exploding at the right times.

              You can slow it down frame by frame and you just can't see anything happening from the tank just a blurry "rpg fired", "explosion", "scurrying away while promoting snackbars" usually resulting in very little visible damage if the guy hangs around for at least a couple of frames.

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Why is America losing tanks in Ukraine? Did they receive no training? What will happen to the f16s?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The same thing that happened to the tanks. This is a wealth transfer. Ukraine is as corrupt as Russia is and if Gazprom wasn’t a clear indicator, we’re in on the grift. The war costs the U.S. taxpayer money and Ukraine gets a war paid for by a country cashing in on the “hey where did the $2 billion worth of shells go?” Or the “it was never sent in the first place, it never existed, that money went straight into domestic coffers and was counted as spent”

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Did they receive no training?

      anon you cant train away being hit by an ATGM you didn't see.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        its called firing artillery at suspected ATGM spots, firing MGs at any potential ATGM spots, and using mech infantry to offensively approach any possible ATGM site to force them to give up their position
        as well as basic things like staying in concealment and using the thermal sights

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    This is the most moronic take on APS ive seen this year

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    it's a lot more than that
    t. maintains trophy systems in the IDF

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >You could basically rig a radar speed gun to turn it into a drone detector.
    They can't detect drones or drop munition by design.

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Test

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >turn on radar emitter to look for drones
    >nato AWACS now has your exact position
    >get splashed by counterbattery fire
    >die

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Right, just how they destroyed all those S-300 radars, oh wait.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        There aren't any S300s deployed in Ukraine and if you want to know how Russian SAAMs perform against NATO aircraft I'd suggest you make a study of how well Saddam Hussein's worked.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >>turn on radar emitter to look for drones

      Ultra high frequvency radio waves gets absorbed fast in the atmosphere. Thats why 5 Ghz wifi has less range than 2.4 Ghz.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        not that low, but in general it's possible to build a very short range radar in a 50-60GHz band with LPI properties based on physical limitations rather than ESM technology advancements

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Because none of the combatants have access to APS systems. Ukraine has been getting NATO leftovers which don't have APS. Russia's APS system failed outright which is why we don't see T-14s. This isn't 2 tier 1 nations having it out. It's Grampa trying to pick a fight with his grand nephew and losing.

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Russian T-90m supposedly should be equiped with an APS (https://youtu.be/AtE1P3t6pOU?feature=shared&t=583), but they don't seem to work, like at all. As for Ukraine, I don't really know why doesn't the West share it. Maybe there's not enough of it? Or they afraid that russia will capture them and then reverse-engineer / share with chinks and iran.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Russian APS and even PDS have proven to just not work very well. Look how quickly Russia removed Shtora from their T-90s after they were deployed.

      As for the West, there simply just aren't enough APS systems to go around right now because there was never any priority to outfit their entire tank fleets en masse with them.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        The issue is Shtora is outdated and designed to counter 1980s laser guided munitions. Every nation that wasn't clinically moronic replaced laser munitions for radio controlled or fire/forget systems since they are more reliable and harder to counter.
        Russia just assumed everyone was still as moronic as them.

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Even if APS isn't good enough to shoot down drones, it should be good enough to identify drones. Then you can use another drone to shoot it down.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      this moron must be baiting at this point

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    WHY YOU WANT APS FOR T-62? IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH AS PROCURED FROM KHARKOV LOCOMOTIVE FACTORY? YOU THINK NEEDS IMPROVEMENT? MAYBE YOU FIND JOB WITH ARMY OF RUSSIA? YOU HAVE DRINKS WITH ALEKSANDER MOROZOV, TRADE STORY OF MANY TANKS DESIGNED AND DETAILS OF SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING

    OR MAYBE YOU NOT DO THIS. PROBABLY IS BECAUSE YOU NEVER DESIGN TANK IN WHOLE LIFE. YOU LOOK AT FINE RUSSIAN VEHICLES, THINK IT NEED CRAZY SHIT STICK ON ROOF. YOU HAVE DISEASE OF AMERICAN CAPITALIST, CHANGE THING THAT IS FINE FOR NO REASON EXCEPT TO LOOK DIFFERENT FROM COMRADE

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Tech works in simulation and training exercises
    >Suddenly faced with the real world, it sucks

    Also it seems to be countering a very specific threat which is ATGM's or tank rounds but can't do well against drones or infantry.

    >"But infantry should protect the tank!"

    Yeah that's not a viable option anymore either. Drones will spot the infantry and send down hell in terms of artillery, so infantry supported tank-pushes are dead. Also how well trophy-systems work against APC's spamming 25/40 mm doesn't seem to be well documented (Bradley vs T-90).

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >drones
      Meh, M-SHORAD.
      An upgraded Avenger truck system, even.

      Hello again 🙂

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I don't think you realize how many drones are loitering the battlefield. Also guess what would be artillery'd first when they see it shooting down drones?

        >Suddenly faced with the real world, it sucks
        It worked near flawlessly in the real world combat, which is why they are rushing to install it in the newer models

        >Yeah that's not a viable option anymore either.
        Thats literally how combat teams are Organized

        >Stuck in 2021
        Can you show me one (1) successful trophy intercept from Russia-Ukraine war?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >drones
          Meh, M-SHORAD.
          An upgraded Avenger truck system, even.

          Hello again, again 🙂
          Ah yes, the magic artillery that always and immediately hits, hits the vehicles that never move, guided to hit by the observing drones getting shot down, which are still up in the air even though they got shot down.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >can you show me PAC (1) ... er ONE Trophy intercept
          >in a war where Trophy is not present?
          What is this shill troll... baffling stuff...

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Suddenly faced with the real world, it sucks
      It worked near flawlessly in the real world combat, which is why they are rushing to install it in the newer models

      >Yeah that's not a viable option anymore either.
      Thats literally how combat teams are Organized

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >APS can't automatically fire on drones because the radar too many false positives
    I have a simple solution: Have cameras in the APS that work with the radar. They can either have AI image recognition of common targets like various drones, grenades, and drone dropped mortal shells, or more simply the commander could get an alert for potential drones and see what it is and authorize the APS to engage it if it gets close.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      How many birds are hovering in place before dropping something on your tank?
      The number of things that are falling nearly perpendicular and accelerating at 10 m/s^2 are extremely small

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        It's all fun and games until your APS is targeting every stick that falls in the woods.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Sticks travel straight down, drones travel forwards before dropping a projectile
          And in any case, a stick is small, light, and wood while bomb is wider, has metal in it, and falls straight instead of tumbling

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            when you have milliseconds to make a decision - complex algorithms to detect and classify are not your friend - we can do:
            if its faster than 800m/s kill it
            and not:
            is is flying 10/ms - is it a bird ? a branch? some dirt or rock from nearby explosion? its difficult to judge that on its speed alone - you would also need some image recognition built in all that in miliseconds - in this application ai would probably help as it can be trained to kill everything from dron a nd munitions categories and ignore anything else - until someone will put stuffed bird on drone and it will fail miserably
            and for cops/speedtrap analogy - there is a cop interpreting the readings and deciding if its credible or it has to be retried - its not that automatic and they have all the time in the world to do it if in any doubt

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >is it a bird ?
              Why would there be metal birds travelling straight down like a bomb?

              >a branch?
              Why would there be a metal branch falling straight down?

              >some dirt or rock from nearby explosion?
              Probably the only thing that could actually be mistaken for a bomb
              But explosions tend not to produce RPG sized fragments falling at a steep angle, there would be very few falls positives

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                doppler radars can see even insects 😛
                for example it is used to measure paintballs speed for more practical application

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    APS works and every tank in the future will have it.

    Do you understand that Russia and Ukraine are poor as shit?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      It's cheaper than a shahed, moron

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Older systems have gaps in their coverage, and they're expensive, while newer systems with better coverage are even more anus-bleedingly expensive.

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    APS radar costs far more than 2k$
    have you ever tried to build a radar? even the cheapest hobby radar would cost like 3 times that

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      isnt aps alone like 1 million dollars on a abrams

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        probably but that is including all work,meitencnce, installation, ammunition and covering the R&D to create it + profit for the manufacturer
        id say the cost of the raw components used to make a radio APS system is in the ~30-60k$ range if you were making one in your garage and could order any chip from any company at-cost

        and if we are talking israeli APS they had many generations of APS systems going back 24 years. in 2000 they operated a classified armor unit in lebanon using the 'purple thunder' APS which was not 100% reliable (shot out smoke grenades when fired on to smokescreen the tank) and then later it was developed into the early versions of 'rain coat' that intercepted the enemy rockets up to the current gen 'rain coat' which uses the radars as both ground sensors and as high resolution high speed missile trackers and can operate passively to counter enemy electronic warfare planes/drones spotting the tank.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Doppler radar the police uses

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    APS doesn't work, your metal coffins will never be relevant again.

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Because slavs fricking love their
    К
    O
    H
    T
    A
    К
    T
    1

  19. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >shoots down your friendly helicopter passing nearby
    >shoots down friendly projectiles

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >shoots down your friendly helicopter passing nearby
      how would you mistake a helo for an RPG?

      >shoots down friendly projectiles
      this is a good thing, since a friendly projectile can still damage you
      if you mean a friendly projectile that was aimed at an enemy, then this is unlikely to happen
      because the projectile will fly at angle that would not intersect the tank

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        APS - Anonymous Posting Specialist
        Intercepts and disrupts the impact of trolls.

  20. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    APS isn’t where it needs to be or everyone would be fielding them. No one, zero, has fielded them in a real war — except maybe the USSR or Russia and there’s no evidence those were successes. We can’t even get self-driving cars with all the horrendous amounts of funding, research and cutting-edge electronics and machine-learning; creating an intelligent discrimination of events in such a system isn't nearly as trivial as you people seem to think it is. Creating these ultra-fast, high-resolution 360-degree sensors isn’t a trivial task; a plane’s AESA radar set can cost 10s of millions by itself for example.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >APS isn’t where it needs to be or everyone would be fielding them.
      everyone is already trying to field them
      the latest M1s have them
      and the next M1 will have them as a permanent feature
      the merkavas have had them for even longer

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Very dumb & overblown post. Somehow pretends Israel-Hamas war isn't happening.

      Here's some pics of Trophy during its awkward adolescent phase of implementation.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        So at first Leonardo was going to handle it. Then sometime around 2020, General Dynamics took over the effort.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          What are those bricks on the front of the turret?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            weight simulators to match the Sepv3 armor package, i think.
            A lot of work goes in to making the turret etc balanced with regards to gyros, turret drive and so on.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              So are the warning labels just for lead exposure?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                yeah probably, either that or some health and safety shit for the APS radars if they are live kits

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous
          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Isn't that part of the TUSK III upgrade package, several layers of NERA, I think some composite?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >a plane’s AESA radar set can cost 10s of millions by itself for example
      An export Trophy HV costs $1.5M and is good enough for what you need. You are thinking from a perspective of a single soldier not a military planner and arrive at the conclusion you need a wunderwaffe that will make you invulnerable. If it cuts the number of successful ATGM attacks by say 75% and kills less infantry than a total lack of tank support would it's already a great improvement and well worth the money

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Creating these ultra-fast, high-resolution 360-degree sensors isn’t a trivial task
      The technology existed and worked since 1980s. Seems the only problem are false positives in the old systems.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >No one, zero, has fielded them in a real war
      Gaza conflicts for the past 15 years have used Trophy and it's been a smashing success, not just per Rafael, but from every soldier who fought with and alongside it.
      >I said a REAL war!
      Your no-true-scotsman doesn't even make any sense. What's a real war? One where Hamas gets T-90s or Su-27s? A Kornet doesn't magically become more or less effective against APS under those conditions. An ATGM is an ATGM.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >An ATGM is an ATGM.
        RPG-30

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I don't know the effectiveness against RPG-30, but given Russia cannot replicate Trophy, but Israel can replicate RPG-30 (fire small precursor, followed by actual warhead), I'd bet on the side of Trophy. You could program it to ignore projectiles below a certain size, or to counter only the larger projectile if the two are in flight together.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Defenses

          >In 2012 Israel Defense reported that the Rafael military-industrial corporation has developed a defense system, "Trench Coat", against the RPG-30, to supplement the existing Trophy. It consists of a 360-degree radar that detects all threats and launches 17 projectiles, of which one should strike the incoming missile.[4]

  21. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Why is nobody in Ukraine using APS?
    Because one side is Russian and the other side doesn't get the newest tanks.

  22. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    There's only one video on Youtube I found showing Trophy working.

    Looks like they cut the video to make it look like it got hit by 2 RPGs.

  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    APS works on man portable and vehicle mounted anti tank missiles, not artillery and mines.

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    There are two extremely simple reasons why you don't see APS in Ukraine: it's expensive so western militaries didn't equip tanks with them in a relatively peaceful post cold war world and the the ones that are equipped with them are too valuable and sensitive to send to Ukraine. It's the same reason why F-35's aren't sent to Ukraine alongside AARGM-ER to dunk on Russian AD.

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