How fucking thick is that? Somebody got a thickness value? It's almost as thick as the commander's head
Why is the Merkava's top so heavily protected?
How fucking thick is that? Somebody got a thickness value? It's almost as thick as the commander's head
Literally.
they have some experience with top attack scenarios
>Why is the Merkava's top so heavily protected?
The Israelis correctly predicted the proliferation of drone-dropped grenade shenanigans. They are literally always a decade ahead of the rest of the world by necessity
I mean yeah, it's like 6 - 8 inches of armor. Enough to stop DPICMs or similar stuff
look at
, it's nearly a foot thick if anything
>predicted the proliferation of drone-dropped grenade
>kind of a stretch
didn't have to predict shit, just applied the lessons from Grozny
>it's nearly a foot thick if anything
Did the math here (
) with the image. The merkava is 104.73 inches tall and the tank's height in the image is 3.8 inches while the roof is about 1/4 inch, meaning 0.25/3.8 x 104.73 = 6.90 inches
It's about 7 inches thick or so imho
>DPICM
Dual Purpose Incendiary Cocktail Molotov?
>They are literally always a decade ahead of the rest of the world by necessity
>Engine in the Front
>the most well armored part of the tank.
Yes. Merkava is perfect tank.
>Always
Eh. They were fumbling poorly with IEDs and sheet while the South Africans were quick on the uptick. That said because the IDF are in a war every decade they have practical field experience that theoreticals elsewhere (excluding the US who has a similar experience of decent enough war experience every decade so far) don't.
I'm curious why nobody else picked up on the tank-chassis for an APC approach they did, but I think the fat garden gnometank APC has some big issues. That and everyone's tanks are so specialized it'd be a completely new chassis to make one.
How do Merkavas handle, anyway? They're a Western Tank with a lot of field experience.
Good work bro.
Could be that they wanted to protect the top more? IDK though that does sound like kind of a stretch when I say it out loud.
Look at that
>Military who has experience dealing with insurgents in urban combat
>Often times using fairly low-tech weapons like the billions of RP7-2s and 7s they gave
>Often times firing down from buildings or rooftops
Same reason why the Merkava has limited troop transport capabilities. garden gnomes fight in a very particular area against a very particular enemy and have niche uses for having a tank that has obscene top armor and can shit out a squad of people as needed.
>Often times firing down from buildings or rooftops
That's not actually possible, the rockets don't lock in. They just fall out if you point the launcher downwards. You only see this in movies
Only guided missiles have to lock in
RPGs and recoilless weapons don't have such limitations
I mean that the the rocket doesn't lock into the barrel and simply falls out when you point the launcher downwards. It's not possible to shoot downwards from a roof
Because that's where most people are aiming?
Honestly, western MBTs in general need to revise their design; most shots aren't going for the glacis, but the roof.
>western MBTs in general need to revise their design; most shots aren't going for the glacis
Chicken and egg, anon
It is BECAUSE the glacis and turret front is so thickly armoured that the roof is now the target zone of choice
to compromise on the former in order to protect the latter would set you back on square one: being defeated by frontal shots
>Reduce glacis armor to thicken roof armor without increasing weight.
>Attacks now target the front of the tank.
Some days you just can't win.
The only way to win is not to play
Is that the Trophy APS or something new?
Standard Trophy-HV.
Really, making tanks unkillable is currently not much of an issue. The problem is the lighter vehicles, which can't currently stand the greater weight and power requirements of current-gen APS. But that's getting solved in the next gen, which will also see them become more modular.
I don't think an APS will actually make even tanks unkillable. Infantry will just adopt a multiple rocket laucher like a M202 loaded with HEAT instead of incendiaries. This would exhaust the APS system over time.
Still, this gives the vehicle time to act. Either evade or pop smoke or even bail out, anything to give the crew a chance at surviving.
>tfw power armor with twin shoulder mounted m202s will be the future of anti-tank
We're getting closer to Heinlein's Y-racks.
It's hyperbole, sure. There will be another arms race in APS vs. munitions. The vehicles here still have the upper hand imo. There will be networked APS, where vehicles will be able to protect each other with their personal, but now communal systems. I also predict multiple layers of hard-kill APS developing, for defeats further away (perhaps with directed energy) and something like Trophy/Iron Fist closer-in.
All of this is not going to making killing a tank literally impossible, but significantly more difficult, needing more complex munitions and greater tactical strategy than exists today.
No, but APS/ERA severely limits the ability of infantry to deal with MBTs as now specialized (and very heavy) anti-tank weaponry is required instead of before using a basic bitch RPG-7 or M72 LAW that your squad/platoon had access to. For example, a RPG-30 can deal with APS/ERA but it is a heavy and bulky bitch at 10.3 kg (22.7 lb) which is a boat anchor for the infantry carrying it. Generally speaking, vehicles are not restricted to weight as much compared to infantry which means vehicles can and will add more APS/ERA to deal infantry anti-tank weapons while infantry have far more limited options due to weight.
>For example, a RPG-30 can deal with APS/ERA but it is a heavy and bulky bitch at 10.3 kg (22.7 lb) which is a boat anchor for the infantry carrying it.
And it's inaccurate because first shot throws aim off.
And it can be be counted by doubke launcher APS like Iron Fist.
>And it's inaccurate because first shot throws aim off
LMAO
I knew the RPG-30 was basically a moron-rig tandem warhead, but this is hilarious
>defeats APS and ERA
>cost: 83000 roubles
have heard Trophy can deal with ROG-30
but it's hersey in the IDF
rafael and rapat don't share with us what it can't intercept
maybe the instructors know more than i do(although i doubt it)
they'll probably tell us once it becomes a threat to us
>rafael and rapat don't share with us what it can't intercept
what.the.fuck.
allegedly it can intercept APFSDS too
they only tell us about current threats
the developmental devision of the IDF knows everything too
but the grunts won't know until they need to
at least i don't
Sy Simulations suggest that APS could weaken APFSDS rounds but not stop them.
i guess it can also make it impact in a bad angle
but we don't actually know what the warheads have inside
and that's highly classified
>This would exhaust the APS system over time
Which do you think will more easily carry multiple reloads, an infantryman and his ATGMs, or a tank and its APS rounds?
reloads on an APS aren't simple
and Trophy has only one automatic reload(if you're lucky enough to even have a loader)
>it's impossible to build an under-armour reloadable APS, IMPOSSIBLE
considering the current one operates like a rube goldberg machine, we are very far off
also no you haven't seen how they work, the video on the internet is of the early prototype
t. fire control (and trophy) technician in the IDF
My point is simply that someone will come up with a better weapon eventually, and a tank is way more upgradeable than an infantryman
at some point sure
but it won't be trophy, since the warheads are too complex and their mounting system is too complicated
the loader for it is definitely an afterthought here
sure, at some point someone will make a repeating action, but i we aren't close and armies are satisfied with this, so they have no reason to invest more in that for now
Reloading? Easy. Reloading quick enough to hit the next missile? Hard.
my idea would be stacking IFVs against tanks. Network the high RoF autocannon with the ATGM launcher the IFV has and fire a 20mm burst at the Merkava before immediately launching an ATGM. The purpose being to pepper the tank with 20mm HEI to just damange the APS system and prevent it from operating properly against the ATGM.
an alternative would be a double barreled tank lmao
Imagine that. A tank with two barrels. Looking like an elephant or something. Haha.
>Just bring a 20mm cannon to every tank engagement, and then aim and hit precisely on the APS systems from 1000m away
Even if you succeed, the APS has already done its job.
I'm just talking about how you'd change tactics in the presence of APS. Normally you wouldn't use a 20mm gun against a tank because you'd be exposing yourself with no damage potential against the enemy. Now you need to disable or exhaust the APS before getting off a shot at the tank. (assuming 100% reliability ofc)
For RPG teams the ol RPG7 or drone carried shaped charge would take the place of the IFV cannon - the cheap but abundant weapon that no longer cracks open the tank, but can be used effectively to fight the APS system. Which would require either networking or teamwork or whatever to make sure the drone guys already airborne before the NLAW guy fires his missile.
At the end of the day you're trying to destroy a 5 million dollar vehicle. I'd argue most RPGs and basic bitch shaped chargers weren't gonna cut it anyway. APS or not.
>fire at tank
>while you are peppering it the APS calculates your position
>get hit by a 120mm round before the ATGM has a chance to reach its target
I guess thats what would have to be automated and networked properly. ATGM travel speed + autocannon fire-rate to come up with a combined fire solution that is as close to instantaneous you can get.
also
a 4 team fireteam can carry more AT weapons than the amount of warheads a tank carries
the main issues, are the rest of the layers in the survivability onion, combined with return fire
i chose 4 because the merkava has a crew of 4
It's not so simple. The limiting factor on APS isn't the reloads, it's how long the sensors can last without being destroyed by leftover shrapnel from interceptions.
The cap is about 4 hits, btw, which is why you almost never see APS designs carry more than 4 shots per module. In practice the radar modules on that side are likely to be destroyed by hit 2 or 3, before it runs out of ammo.
the trophy warhead has the sensitive radar inside
the search radars are armored and can take it
>Infantry will just adopt a multiple rocket laucher
holy shit
bungie was right
Didn't the Russians try that and it didn't work?
I don't think it went up against an APS yet and I'm pretty sure that the APS would catch both decoy and warhead in a single shot.
>like a M202
like a rpg-30
Not sure I want to be bailing out into an APS firing off, but you also forgot the option of just killing the fucker shooting at you.
because its' for combatting irregulars in urban environment
This hatch looks like it could easily be jammed from opening.
Some branches it rocks anywhere around all those actuation points, and that hatch ain't opening.
>Abrams'
It's reeeeeaally thick
because it was designed to be used off of pre-made firing ramps and the experience of urban combat in the first Lebanon war and the intifadas
how many Merkava's did they send to Ukraine?
The same as the number of K2s SK sent.
Tanks aren’t universal, this one is made for a very specific region and very specific type of warfare. It would just sink in the mud in Ukraine
Why would Israel be supporting Ukraine?
They have told and continue to tell Ukraine to surrender to Russia unconditionally.
Have you even looked at Israel's demographics? Most of them are descended from Russian garden gnomes. Plus they're terrified of what the Russians can supply the Iranians with if they started to give weapons to Ukraine. If Russia for instance sold about 4 dozen Su-30s to Iran, that would put a massive dent in Israel's plans to destroy their Uranium enrichment plants and Command and Control facilities in a hypothetical war.
Muh uber scary SU-30s, that are unable to gain air superiority over Ukraine. The garden gnomes are so shook right now their yamaka might fall off
>that are unable to gain air superiority over Ukraine
That's an operator issue, not a hardware issue.
There's still a lot of RKG3s in proliferation in the middle east. That was probably the big concern for the Israelis. In the urban areas of the Iraq War, it wasn't uncommon for Humvees to have RKG3s thrown at them.
>RKG3s
Link related for all the new frens
>https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/v9hkf7/compilation_of_the_rkg3_at_grenade_in_use_during/
And another one showing you how easy it is to BTFO a "modern" MBT with a 1950s AT grenade:
>https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/zvrs6u/a_russian_t90m_tank_being_destroyed_by_rkg3_heat/
The Israeli's are very smart with their decision to armour their tanks up.
Watching zogbots get turned into paste by anti-tank weapons used on lightly armored cars makes my PP tingle
because they're built for urban warfare and the Hebrew Army knew they'd take RPG fire from rooftops
People misunderstand the cope cage. It wasn't to protect against modern top-down attack weapons. it was to protect against RPG-7 attacks firing basic 70's era warheads in urban environments, based upon Russian experiences in Syria and Chechnya.
Except most of the tanks Russia lost were in open field due to ATGM's not RPG's. Thank you for yet again proving that Russians are subhumans.
Russia was expecting to win the war in 3 days and just roll into the cities without much resistance. The cope cages were based on very faulty information, but that's one of the many sins you can lay at the fault of the FSB and decision making organs of the MoD, while it was a reasonable field expedient modification given what the tankers thought they'd be rolling into. The irony of them making it harder to bail out after an ATGM strike is just icing on the cake.
In chechnya they lost most of their armour in urban combat.
T80 especially got fucked due to poor tactics.
Idk they started to see things like a the javelin and nlaw become developed and operate in mountainous and urban terrain primarily.
So you have top attack weapons being developed and super effective AP weapons being developed and operate in an environment where you enemy will always be able to find a higher ground spot to hit your armor.
Nor do you have the land mass to provide support long distance via long range artillery and air support units to hit targets that armor can't.
Oh and a small populace compared to your opposition meaning any losses hurt you more than them.
And you don't have to worry about armor and equipment killing range because you don't have a large amount of land to protect.
The merkava doesn't have the design constraints to be air transportable, or even light rail for that matter. In turn they can beef it up however they want while the Abrams has to be able to deploy half the globe away, whereas this can just sit in its own backyard.
To protect from roll-overs
It’s to protect the commander from rocks thrown by Palestinian children.
Seems like garden gnomes aren't complete subhumans like Russians and know about top down attack weapons
>Why is the Merkava's top so heavily protected?
They paid attention during Grozny and learned their own hard lessons during the 82 Lebanon War. Muh 7000000 billion inch effective thickness turret cheeks don't mean dick when Achmed is firing an RPG at you from a seventh floor balcony
my guess is that the Israelis were concerned that during urban combat ops their tanks were going to be exposed to anti-tank teams firing RPGs, recoilless rifles, and ATGMs from tall buildings, which could penetrate the top armor of normal tanks pretty easily.
kind of makes sense because I believe the Russians got a bit of a headache from that issue when they invaded Chechnya.
Because garden gnomes knew that they weren't going to fight tanks but civilians in urban scenarios (that they want to steal) so attacks from roofs were going to be common
This is my guess
Wrong. They were compelled to give the tank the little garden gnome hat.
>implying any building will be standing in Gaza by 2030
it's hollow, all of the armor are hollow spaced plates, if it were solid armor steel plate the fucking thing would be as heavy as the maus
They learned some lessons that the Russians refused to. Namely that getting hit on the roof of the turret, with RPGs, is bad for your health.
>be the first to use drones in combat
>realize the risks they pose
>design tank with enough top armor to be light drone proof
If anyone was going to do this it makes sense it was Israel.
Palestinian children can lob VERY heavy rocks.
Challenger2 and leo2a6+ have pretty thick top armour, not as thick as on merkava but thicker than Abrams.