Unless I am missing something In a Browning System handgun the slide begins to move backwards the instant the bullet begins to move and the Browning System merely slows the opening of the slide until the pressure in the barrel drops to a safe level. So WHY THEN do we refer to the Browning System as a "locked" system instead of merely delayed blowback when there is no TRUE locking?! Am I going insane?!
because it is locked you retard. it's literally shown in your own image.
Not truly. If you push back on the breach face hard enough the gun will unlock. Don't believe me? Close the slide on a browning handgun and get a cleaning rod. Push the cleaning rod down the bore and against the breach face. The gun will unlock and the slide will open. That's not a locked breach.
The action being locked isn't refering to the slide not moving, it's referring to the barrel and slide being locked together until the whole assembly has moved back and pressure drops. In a blowback pistol or delayed blowback system, there is no mechanical lock between the barrel and slide.
But nothing stops the slide from unlocking before the pressure drops to a safe level save for the mechanical timing of the action. That's why I called it delayed blowback. Once the slide has enough inertia in it it WILL decouple from the barrel and open regardless of the pressure in the barrel.
That's true of every locked breach autoloader. The issue is timing. If an AR-15 is excessively overgassed the bolt will unlock before the pressure drops to safe levels. Usually this just results in case head seperation but it can result in more spectacular failures. This holds true for DI, piston, long recoil, short recoil or any other variant of locked breach autoloading system.
God I started typing this whole fucking technical explanation in an attempt to explain this to you but after like five minutes I just realized it's so much easier to call you a fucking retard and move on.
So yeah, you're a fucking retard.
Without the mechanical action of the swinging link or cam, the slide and barrel remain locked together, therefore it is locked. Without the mechanical action of the rollers/levers, a delayed blowback gun becomes normal blowback.
If you remove the cam pin from an AR, no amount of force on the bolt face will unlock the bolt. The same is true of a Browning Short Recoil action.
It doesn't matter what parts you take out of an AR NO amount of force on the bolt face will EVER unlock the action. The same is not true for a browning style handgun.
if you remove the barrel link the barrel will never unlock itself from a 1911 slide either
The same is true for a pistol.
Go get a cleaning rod and push on the bolt face of a browning style pistol. It's not locked.
Yes it is. The breach is locked, you move it backwards, and then it unlocks. During the firing process the breach remains locked until the pressure has safely dropped. The fact that a Stoner gas system uses a different method to unlock its breach is irrelevant.
>the breach is locked until the gun fires
So it's not locked
Any semi auto is going to unlock as part of the firing cycle. An AR doesn't stay locked either.
ok but now try it with the slide off the gun
That's not the test for blowback designs.
By that logic the 50 cal barrett is a blowback.
By your criteria a fucking M2 machine gun is delayed blowback.
>It doesn't matter what parts you take out of an AR NO amount of force on the bolt face will EVER unlock the action
I'm pretty sure there is an amount of force that will unlock the action (by shearing off the locking lugs, that is).
I wonder if it really would, it might just rattle itself unlocked during recoil. Anyone care to try?
It is locked for the first bit of distance. Just a pretty short distance in handguns, if you had a Maxim (also short recoil), you'd see that it would take a lot longer of a distance to unlock because it's a rifle cartridge.
The breach is locked untill and when the gun fires, it only unlocks afterwards.
Well, no. It's recoil operated, meaning the slide doesn't have a net backward force on it until the projectile leaves the muzzle, at which point the pressure in the barrel quickly drops to ambient.
you are unironically retarded.
How's the view from up there?
Even though everyone is bullying you, I think you have a point. "Browning delayed action" is more accurate language. Much like roller delay blowback.
thank you fren
Roller delayed doesn't lock up though. There is nothing connecting the chamber/barrel with the bolt or breech face.
In practice the difference is minimal, but it is wrong to consider the blowing system not to be locked
It has locking lugs you fucking dumbass.
Are you experiencing a painful emotion right now?
It’s called SHAME because you’ve said something stupid and now you might think twice before saying something stupid again.
this is a lock. it locks the action. the breechface will not come off the back of the barrel because they are locked together by that piece of steel.
Exactly. It makes more sense to think about if you hold the barrel and slide static and move the receiver around. The light green wedge (or whatever it’s called) comes forward to cam down and unlock the barrel from the slide
You are too retarded to utter the name of John Moses Browning. have a nice day right fucking now.
>if you put enough rearward pressure on a recoil operated action it will unlock and move backwards
… anon… that’s the whole fucking point of the design.
Guys please, in brownings system the barrel and slide locked together start to move when the bullet pushes itself off of the barrel putting an equal and opposite reaction of the energy carried downrange into the gun.
I’ve always thought of short recoil as locked breech, since in effect it is, aslong as the ammo/timing is consistent enough that the pressure will be down to a safe level before unlocking. The breech stays closed for some predetermined amount of time after firing before a mechanical action opens it. It’s locked because when the gun is in battery, you can’t open the breech without first performing aforementioned mechanical action. Doesn’t matter if you push on the bolt face if it results in no change in the interface between barrel and bolt face.
Delayed blowback I’ve always thought of as being roller delayed or radial delayed, since the action is never truly locked and the breech begins to open, albeit slowly, the instant the gun is fired.
Go read a book. Specifically, Peter Dallhammer's Textbook of Pistol Technology & Design.
>Push the cleaning rod down the bore and against the breach face. The gun will unlock and the slide will open.
No. At first, for a short distance barrel and slide will move together (roughy a few millimeters in pistol cartridges, depending on the design), . Only then will they unlock and will the slide open and move rearward on it's own. In live fire operation, that short distance takes enough time so as to drop pressure to safe levels which allow for opening.
>Once the slide has enough inertia in it it WILL decouple from the barrel and open regardless of the pressure in the barrel.
No, you are presuming it opens based on inertia. No amount of raw inertia will open a (short) recoil action (unless it destroys the locking components: recoil actions need to move (recoil) a certain distance before they unlock using a link, guiding pin or whatever other mechanical movement. Movement, not inertia (although it is inertia that causes the movement, over time).
Blowback is operated by recoil of the bolt/slide assembly, which is caused by chamber pressure acting on the breech face.
(Short) recoil system is operated by recoil of the barrel & bolt/slide assembly, which is caused by chamber pressure acting on the breech face.
>I assume eggheads in the R&D department have to calculate all that shit every time they design a new gun?
No, you start with the last gun you built or use your reference collection and start from there. Use high speed camera to determine if the design is working as intended, if not then change springs and such untill it does.
Could a recoil-operated system be called "blowback+barrel"?
Blowback is operated by chamber pressure. Browning system uses recoil of the barrel/bolt assembly.
Those are two different names for the same thing,
Oh no bros, OP finally uncovered the truth. There's only one truly locking action. It has a key and everything.
Im too retarded to know what im looking at in these diagrams. I think I more or less get what's happening inside a gun when it fires, but how exactly does the gun "know" when the pressures are safe?
If im understanding correctly, the pressures don't drop to safe levels until after the boolet is out of the barrel. But the bullet is the only thing keeping the pressure in there right? Wouldn't the pressure drop to zero near instantly as soon as the bullet clears the muzzle? If so, how is there enough pressure to send the slide rearward?
>but how exactly does the gun "know" when the pressures are safe
it doesn't, the guy who designed it does and he tuned the springs and weights such that it operates reliably
>how is there enough pressure to send the slide rearward
there isn't, it continues under the momentum it picked up
Ah, the momentum thing really clears that up.
I feel like I might be moron-tier retarded for not figuring that out on my own.
Now in regards to springs / weights, I assume eggheads in the R&D department have to calculate all that shit every time they design a new gun? Can't help but wonder what those equations look like.
browning had no college education. he just designed things by listening to mormon god whispering in his ear.
>can’t help but wonder what those equations look like
I’m not the most physics literate person, but they can’t possibly be too complicated. There are very few variables involved
You could probably do it with nothing but a series of quadratics and an inordinate amount of time, but this is almost definitely a situation where a CAS and writing it as a system of ODE’s and PDE’s will get you to prototyping in a day or two.
There is far more trial and error when it goes into designing guns that the makers would like to admit.
John Browning certainly never attempted any sort of physics mathematics to determine how strong to make something, he would build a prototype and test it.
>pressure equals force over area
>force from a spring is a spring constant multiplied by distance from spring equilibrium
>balance of forces drawing etc etc
engineers nowadays are just CAD drawers that put everything into stress analysis and hit enter, no one actually does math anymore. Mathematicians are just college professors or researchers
The slide on a Browning handgun does not meaningfully move until the bullet leaves the barrel.* This is because the bullet travelling down the barrel exerts as much forward force on the barrel as the pressure of the firing cartridge exerts backwards on the breach face and slide. The two forces balance out keeping the slide locked until the bullet leaves the barrel and then Newton's 3rd law takes effect (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). The slide and barrel are both pushed backwards by recoil impulse and the gun unlocks and cycles.
Unlike a delayed blowback action the gun does not begin to unlock until the bullet is out of the barrel. In a delayed blowback gun the gun begins to unlock IMMEDIATELY and is merely slowed by some mechanical process just enough that the case doesn't explode in the gun.
*In slow motion footage of handguns firing you will see slight movement of the slide before the bullet exits the muzzle due to the force of gas leakage making it past the bullet through the rifling. This movement is negligible and so slight I chose to ignore it in my explanation.
>In slow motion footage of handguns firing you will see slight movement of the slide before the bullet exits the muzzle
Here's an example for those interested:
>due to the force of gas leakage making it past the bullet through the rifling
If you do the dynamics calculations on this, it makes very little sense: after all, the weight of the ejecta is near zero, especially if you only account for a small fraction of the ejecta which are leaking past the bullet.
Instead, the slide and barrel really do start moving at the moment in time when the bullet starts moving: Newton's 3rd law does not get suspended for a small amount of time because it makes for easier explanations. However, the slide velocity in the first bit is still very slow because the projectile and ejecta are still going at a very slow speed (relatively speaking). It takes time for the projectile to accelerate, and thus it also takes time for the slide and barrel to accelerate. Note that slide & barrel velocity is an order of magnitude slower than bullet velocity, because their mass is an order of magnitude higher.
Your original statement is therefore still true:
>The slide on a Browning handgun does not meaningfully move until the bullet leaves the barrel.
Since the slide really does not meaningfully move while the bullet is still in the barrel, but the explanation behind it is wrong.
Because Blowbacks will have a brief moment where there's a tiny bit of exposed brass and the chamber is at full pressure. With recoil systems like the Browning system the chamber is completely closed for those first instants.
Because it is actually locked and only becomes unlocked due to the tilting barrel moving the locking surfaces away from each other with rearward motion of the barrel and slide. If there were no barrel tilt they wouldn’t unlock. A delay system has no lock, like let’s say rollers, the rollers just move slowly enough that the pressure dissipates rather than a cam unlocking them.
Slide and barrel move together at first. Just because it is unlocked an action it doesn't mean it was locked.
That's like saying your door isn't locked because you can open it with a key. Thus it is "key-delayed action."
Are you retarded?
>Just because it is unlocked by an action it doesn't mean it wasn't locked.
I'm tired. Long day.
this is among the stupidest things I've ever read on this board and I'm including the guy NDing into his thigh and posting about it here instead of going to the hospital
OP is autistic as fuck.
There is no lock, correct, but it is locked.Just like a friction lock in other industries isn't a lock either and yet we still call it that.