>Germany (arguably) the best tank
>Sweden (arguably) has the best IFV
>Has highly advanced anti-air systems
>Meanwhile the Eurofighter is only marginally better than the F-15/F-16 and was built at the same time as the F-22
>French stealth fighter program supposed to be completed by 2035, UK/Italy/Japan program only started last year
I understand that they're behind the US, but fucking 2035 for a stealth fighter, seriously?
puny defense budgets
FPBP
Bongs are crazy about inventing paradigm shifting contraptions when they're let loose. Krauts will refine to perfection and produce at continental scale if they hear some classical music. But they're constantly kept at bay by feeding pseudo problems to solve.
also 30 different militaries with 30 different requirements, goals and purposes and 30 different governments who change every few years and will change decades old cooperations and agreements on a whim.
>French stealth fighter program supposed to be completed by 2035, UK/Italy/Japan program only started last year
That's the date for NGAD (the American program) and GCAP (the UK/Italy/Japanese program). FCAS (the French/German/Spanish program) is projected to be 2040s at the earliest.
What even is this thread? You've just started and everything you've said is wrong.
>FCAS (the French/German/Spanish program) is projected to be 2040s at the earliest.
earliest says 2035, the 2035 date for GCAP isn't really a serious date right now
>https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/31260-no-fcas-before-2050-dassault
The Dassault CEO disagrees, be sure to let him know he's wrong.
>the 2035 date for GCAP isn't really a serious date right now
Whatever you say pierre.
hasn't a prototype for NGAD already flown?
Sorta, the air force has flown and tested a "prototype flight demonstrator" for the PCA (manned portion of the NGAD program) but it's up in the air what that exactly means as far as program timeline. It likely means that this is a prototype x-plane and not that they've already down selected vendors and are looking to pick a winning design soon. There is probably still a bit of time before a YF-whatever is flying
>germany
as i have said many times they have sabotaged A lot of programs in europe latest being the eurodrone a 70 million one engine hale drone became a 300 million 2 engine male drone
>sweden
they left the tempest program few days ago rumor has it that saab will make their 6th gen
>eurofighter
prime example of germany being fucktards
>I understand that they're behind the US, but fucking 2035 for a stealth fighter, seriously?
the prototype will be ready in 2030 or less
the rest of the infrastructure will be ready in 2035
nobody has such infrastructure yet not even usa it was only in may of 23 that usa started to explore programs to create pseudo satelites to the likes of zephyr 8s
and dont get me started that they prefered to create a platform so inefficient called BACN instead of spending few millions more to create a multi TDL module
Sweden leaving the Tempest? Damn, bet the Germans will try to invite them into the SCAF mess just to trigger the French even more.
Sweden was never an actual member of Tempest or GCAP. they've always been an observer, but never a participating member.
They paid money to get access to program research, test data, etc.
>French stealth fighter program supposed to be completed by 2035
They fucking wish, more like 2050.
More like never, Dassault's CEO is clearly going to his "plan B", namely improving the Rafale as a cooperative combat platform alongside stealth unmanned wingmen (part of the F4 standard is about improving the processing abilities to allow data fusion with the F-35, in order to still be operable alongside the growing fleet amongst neighbouring NATO allies.
We have missiles and strike bvr
Land systems are comparably low investment, and the US neglect them to a certain degree. Hence why even a small state like sweden can be competitive. Air systems are high investment and where the US have their focus, so there's basically no chance keeping up, especially not inbetween several squabbling states. This tempts some to not even try, but just buy american. From an economic pov that's probably smart. Any european war would involve the us air force anyway, so even if the US are unwilling to share the absolute latest in technology, it would still be available for the defense of europe.
I can't hear you over the sound of how utterly awesome the Gripen is
just like ever car Saab ever made.
>loved by the people that own them
>somewhat well made
>quirks for the sake of being different (picrel)
>not hyper expensive but too expensive to justify what you get.
> Saab owned by GM (US)
> Volvo owned by Geely (China)
There's your answer why Europe and in this case Sweden is barely a blip in the arms industry
Saab Automobiles was (before it was folded) entirely separate from Saab AB (the defense company) after GM bought controlling ownership in 2000.
GM had nothing to do with the aerospace divisions
>Saab AB
I thought it was just SAAB (Swedish Aerospace AB) rather than SAAB AB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_AB
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_AB
>Saab AB (originally Svenska Aeroplan AktieBolag, acronym SAAB)
Guess both ways are right then. Really strange
I think it has to do with them being owned by Investor AB.
> In 1991 Investor AB completed a leveraged buyout of Saab-Scania AB.
They then sold the last 50% of shares of Saab Automobile AB to GM who already owned the other 50%. The remaining defense-only entity was Saab AB that we know today.
Keeping it Saab AB, as it's majority-owned by Investor AB, just kinda makes sense.
Gripen can - and regularly does - land on random highways, etc
when shit will get really hot, there will be quite tough to find an undamaged, pristine airstrip, f-22s and f-35s require to operate
Gripen needs just a road and the maintenance crew is just a van with papa Sven and his two mates
the F-35 can do that too
there's a slight distinction here - nearly any plane of this size will be able to perform the motorway landing
F-35 aren't built for this, Gripens are. This was a stunt to impress the local air command, and this road was probably hoovered and mopped before this event, so the fragile jet wouldn't catch cold or a pebble
Finns cant paint straight road markings
It's probably to aid to drunk drivers.
>hoovered and mopped
You'd need some of that for most planes. Bigger issue is size. All fighters have nimble shape due to aerodynamics, but most of them are quite huge compared to 90% of roads. And when you really start looking for places that are usable - straight line, minimal and consistent relief, no utility poles or installations ( like most highways do, but you'd avoid them anyway ), brush on sides or big trees etc. you end up with very few suitable locations that still have enough tarmac width.
And it gets even more difficult if you want to hide the plane, by e.g. fitting them under underpasses or in random agricultural hangars.
So can the F-18
That fucking key and ignition unit kills so many of these cars that it isn't even funny. No-one produces new spares for obvious reasons so if that unit goes then you'll just pray and hope that whatever unit you find out of some other car won't go to shit in a year as well. Love the cars for most of their quirks, as you said, but the ignition system is inexcusable.
If it had 3-4K more lbs of thrust it would be amazing. It's a little underpowered.
too expensive for what it offers, if it was sub-50m dollars apiece it would be a truly great fighter
stealth fighter program supposed to be completed by 2035
oh rly?
France made a better fighter alone that all the continent collaborating on the eurofighter. The most pathetic is probably the brits pretending they're still a player when they will just buy whatever the US sell them next.
France is going to have to jump 2 generations with no knowledge on the relevant technologies whilst every member of GCAP has experience with 5th gen, either through direct tech transfers or production. Rafale is a good jet but if you think France can develop a 6th gen by itself, let alone one that's a credible competitor, you're hopelessly deluded.
Generations are a terrbile way to look at it given how poorly chosen the criteria for the 5th generation turned out to be. Rafale is cutting edge in every way but the degree of stealth of its airframe and France worked on full stealth design with the Neuron.
>France is going to have to jump 2 generations with no knowledge on the relevant technologies
lol
lmao even
Look at all those cgi renderings, this will surely bolster their stealth efforts.
I've seen frogs say the same shit about Japan who has done twice as much as this.
Japan has had GaN AESAs since the early 2000s and has already test flown their next gen radar that already has a 1.5x increase in performance over the APG-81. This shit just straight up isn't impressive anymore. Finally puting a GaN in service by the time GCAP is expected to be doing test flights is just sad.
>I've seen frogs say the same shit about Japan who has done twice as much as this.
TOPKEK you haven't even noticed the tiny picture on the right side of the pic in that post. Look at it. It's an anechoic chamber for RCS measurements. The jet inside was the first mockup of the ATDX Shinshin that became the F-X. And yes, they had the RCS of the thing measured in France in the Solange anechoic chamber of the french DGA's CELAR, now referred to as DGA-MI, the biggest anechoic chamber in Europe, in the town of Bruz, during the year 2007.
OH NO NO NO NO NO NO
Does that mean France helped Japan to get where they are now with the F-X which is supposed to merge into the GCAP?
lmao
I don't blame you for not knowing much about the french capabilities anon, as the french do not communicate about these things very much. But there is a clear layer of unwillingness to know, of reluctance to learn, from people like you, which renders the whole thing quite fucking hilarious.
>Japan has had GaN AESAs since the early 2000s
1996
>and has already test flown their next gen radar that already has a 1.5x increase in performance over the APG-81.
Pretty sure burgers are going to laugh at this one but go on
>This shit just straight up isn't impressive anymore. Finally puting a GaN in service by the time GCAP is expected to be doing test flights is just sad.
Yawn. Yes anon, keep being absolutely not worried at all which is why you are so passive aggressive regarding the topic.
See you for the next Rafale sale.
>during the year 2007
2005
> between September and November 2005, the model was tested in the French government's radar cross-section (RCS) range
>France has a big anechoic chamber, but hasn't put a design in it that comes close to the X-2.
Cool. And no, having someone use your room instead of just going through the cost of building their own isn't the same as providing technical assistance. If anything France just used it as an excuse to mooch off of X-2 work.
>1996
J/APG-1 is GaAs. J/APG-2 which came in the early 2000s in GaN.
>Pretty sure burgers are going to laugh at this one but go on
It's what the Japs claim and if anyone is going to match or beat America at radars its going to be Japan.
>Yawn. Yes anon, keep being absolutely not worried at all which is why you are so passive aggressive regarding the topic.
It's literally the frogs always trying to start shit which is why it's annoying. And I'm fairly confident GCAP will come out sooner and be better than FCAS just for who is involved. The FCAS timeline put it at best 2040 production and that was before Germany tried to leave for GCAP, getting told to fuck off, then crawling back. Relational strain is probably at an all time peak for France and Germany after that and the sister project of MGCS is falling through as well.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-forges-pact-leopard-2-successor-snub-paris-handelsblatt-2023-09-06/
>the biggest anechoic chamber in Europe
That's in Turin. Not that size matters if you can fit your test objects inside, bigger doesn't mean less return.
Any books you'd recommend to learn more about technical matters on jets? Keep in mind I'm barely above the "pretty plane = good plane :)" level.
>See you for the next Rafale sale
Which will it be? I assume Saudi Arabia's invoice request was purely bullshit to pressure the germans into agreeing to sell Eurofighters.
>Which will it be? I assume Saudi Arabia's invoice request was purely bullshit to pressure the Germans into agreeing to sell Eurofighters.
Saudi EF sale likely won't happen because the Germans are literal retards. They want to put hundreds of Germans and Brits out of work then tried to use the sale as leverage to gain entry into GCAP not realizing how retarded it is to fuck over the Brits by abusing veto power then asking to be included on the next Brit project with veto power. Now that they've been rightfully told to fuck off from GCAP they will likely just maintain the veto on the sale and if anything are probably getting pressured by Dassault within GCAP to maintain the veto.
It's fucking over. FCAS is going to be powered by shitter modified M88s.
>The most pathetic is probably the brits pretending they're still a player when they will just buy whatever the US sell them next.
It'll still be better than whatever the French push out, which will be 2-3 generations inferior. I'm not convinced the French will ever manage stealth on their own.
topkek
This is what getting frog broken does to a bongoloid.
Anglo speculation declined by german government sources.
Funny thing is, the French are starting to be ok with this whole mess blowing up. They consider the Rafale is a solid enough platform to iterate upon, and that the "stealthy" gimmick will be handed by drone wingmen.
That's just the acceptance phase of grief.
>French cope
The Rafale is better.
Please be true.
>the French are starting to be ok with this whole mess blowing up
>starting
We all knew it was going to be a failure because of the g*rms. Only our sold out politicians were blind or bribed. Dassault's CEO warned about that trainwreck.
Idk, man, it seems like France can't or won't get along with anyone. When it's everyone else, it's you, and France is about as disloyal and mercenary as an "ally" can be, while also being comically demanding.
We're better off doing things on our own. But our traitor politicians won't let us.
France is not currently capable, to my knowledge, of producing next-gen aircraft on their own. Credit where it's due in avionics, in fairness, but man, it really seems like you guys refuse to get along with anyone.
That's why they join multinational programs wait until they have enough information and then flounce quit.
Germans, on the other hand, think patents should be handed over to them.
>it really seems like you guys refuse to get along with anyone
That's correct.
IIRC the only thing they can't do in house is good really engines.
As a design issue or as a fabrication/manufacturing/exotic materials issue? The latter is much easier to solve, as long as they don't mind buying outside of France. It's French stealth/ewar stuff I'm not super confident about.
Multiple high-profile tantrums will do that. Withdrawing the diplomatic mission to the US over AUKUS, dropping out of the tank program, and now dropping out of the next gen air program. There was also that time France sold Exocets sold to them at a discount by the Brits to the Argies to kill Brits.
Then there was that time France insisted the US pay them an absolute fuckton of money for environmental concerns that was very much a case of, "Bribe us to not be a pain in your ass."
Plus Vietnam, and other adventures in, "AMERICA, COME HELP US WITH OUR COLONIALISM OR WE'LL BECOME COMMIES TO SPITE YOU" shit. Also, Libya. Not exactly loyal or dependable allies.
This is all from a very cursory high level overview, but France does seem to think that only French interests should matter for the whole world.
yeah materials science basically.
modern jet engine 'blisks' are probably the most highly strung, secretive and incredibly difficult engineering challenge in the modern world.
not only are they 'grown' from monocrystaline alloys, they are inflated, sort of like injection molding. And that's just the stuff we're allowed to know about.
GE and RR are in a league of their own regarding jet engines right now.
Ah, I wasn't aware monocrystalline manufacturing was still cloak-and-dagger. Over/under on GE or RR being allowed to sell specific components or subassemblies to France? The F414 is already sold to foreign frens.
there are many companies that can do it, but just like with everything else, two implementations of the same technology are not automatically equal.
I have zero understanding of export rules, but selling an engine doesn't reveal the secret sauce for how it's made.
Fair enough, I might be underestimating just how much of a leader GE and RR actually are in the field. I might also be overestimating French acceptance of being reliant on foreign fab.
France has its own engine manufacturer in the form of Safran.
forgot to mention compressor blades and injectors.
we aren't dropping out of the FCAS, the only source you've read is a british tabloid speculating that Germany wants to join GCAP
I unironically hope you're right, because frens that are fickle won't be frens at all if the Pacific goes hot, and the US isn't down to support France in Africa anymore. Lockheed and Boeing having actual competition, and allies being able to produce for themselves and compare notes, are all great things.
Listen, I 100% understand nations wanting to secure their own interests, but when it comes at the costs for supposed allies it really rubs the wrong way.
I don't think we're going to stick around Africa much longer which is a good thing because it's a waste of money, let them kiss Putin's boots if they love him so much
>supposed allies
I prefer the term "common and current interests".
>France does seem to think that only French interests should matter for the whole world
It's arguably true..
Another mind where France has built a château de Chambord, not paying a single dime of rent, triste!
>Superiority
Ah, neat, delusion.
>Plus Vietnam, and other adventures in, "AMERICA, COME HELP US WITH OUR COLONIALISM OR WE'LL BECOME COMMIES TO SPITE YOU" shit
I always love that tidbit parroted by morons like you that's literally a mistranslated sentence where the implication is that the Viets will be commies, not France.
A literal brainlet take 20 IQ mistranslation taken as fact by brainlet 20 IQ retards.
Usually followed by the moronic take that the US got involved in the Vietnam war at France's request. 10 years after France pulled out and told the US to not bother with Vietnam because it's a lost cause.
If you wanna argue with Ken Burns, that's on you.
It's pure American cope.
Think about it for at least a minute. French had already withdrawn from Vietnam. If America went there to help French, then Americans were massive retards because French weren't there anymore. Had American involvement been about helping French, they'd join the fray a decade before.
Do you really think that, especially post Suez crisis, French were in any kind of position to force America do something they didn't want? Or that Americans went to Vietnam to be good allies to French without any other interest of their own in a situation were French had washed their hands of the whole mess?
The whole narrative of 'America was forced into Vietnam by ungrateful French' is a massive cope stemming from the fact that Americans are unable to admit that they can make mistakes and imperialism too. It's always someone else's fault and innocent Americans were just forced to play at being an empire.
If Ken Burns pushes this narrative, then he is just as delusional retard as other American thinking this about Vietnam War.
They will simply ignore the fact that de gaulle himself wrote a fucking letter to kennedy telling him straight that getting involved in vietnam is a mistake and that they would lose this war.
Guess what they did? they went all in and now they need to put the blame on someone else. homosexuals.
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/03/15/archives/de-gaulles-warning-to-kennedy-an-endless-entanglement-in-vietnam.html
Facts and logic don't really come into this. It's all about parts of American society unwilling to take responsibility and admit that they are exactly the same as European imperialists and other bad nations were. Other nations may have acted in deplorable ways in their foreign policy, but not America because Americans are the good guys, hence even when America does bad things it must be because they were forced to do so, probably by those other actually deplorable nations like France.
So historical facts or logic doesn't matter, America can't be at fault, hence facts and logic that say otherwise don't matter. This thinking is apparently so prevalent that even famous documentarians like Ken Burns fall into it.
>kennedy
You might wanna check a timeline
>France sold Exocets sold to them at a discount by the Brits to the Argies to kill Brits
Holy based
good ol' french english rivalry
also if the israelites can do it why not everyone ?
So basically the French are the Turks of the western Mediterranean.
FROG BROKEN
>Wall of text
Didn't read, fuck France. If you can't be friends with anyone, don't expect anyone to be friends with you.
>Friends
The absolutely abysmal level of realpolitk of that anon, wake up and grow up : geopolitics is not a school playground, nations don't have friends, they only have interests
Not really, they're miles behind even '90s era American jet engine preformance.
The M88-2 would need to double or triple its power output for a 6th gen fighter.
For example, the F-35 uses a single F135-PW-100 which produces 125kn (191kN wet) of thrust, weighs 1700kg, is 559cm long, 117cm wide, with an inlet temp around 2000c. With a thrust to weight ratio of 7.47:1 (11.47:1 wet).
M88-2 produces 50kN (75kN wet) of thrust, weighs 891kg, is 353.8cm long, 69.6cm wide, and has an inlet temp of about 1600c. With a thrust to weight ratio of 5.68:1 (8.52:1 wet).
that's cheating, the f-35 engine is using alien technology which only the US has access to
>that's cheating, the f-35 engine is using alien technology which only the US has access to
So alien it's documented on wikipedia. It's a simple thermodynamic machine, increase the temperature differential and you get more thrust, simple.
The trick is not melting your turbine blades. Combining monocrystalline blades with superalloys and active cooling transpirative leading edge cooling is not exactly rocket science (it's jet turbine science) and there are plenty companies with the fundamental knowledge to figure that out, it's just the question who's willing to fork over the money.
>And france seems to think they can upgrade the M88 to suite their needs, I don't see how but they claim they can.
MTU will do the tricky hot turbine part for them, the M88 is just a "make prototype fly" measure, very common and was done by the US many times in the past.
Every engine is just one in a line of step by step improvements over german BMW engines from WW2. (And guess what ancestory MTU has).
>plenty companies with the fundamental knowledge to figure that out
Fundamental knowledge doesn't get you shit. It's the manufacturing and materials science that's the difficult part. The only companies that actually have the CAPABILITY is GE, PW, IHI and to a lesser extent RR, but their research facilities for Monocrystal research are in Japan.
You're obviously entirely unaware of how MTU earns money.
>MTU will do the tricky hot turbine part for them
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Holy shit you guys are so funny.
So does this confirm FCAS is dead?
>wanting to build a nuclear-capable jet in cooperation with a country which isn't allowed to have nukes
Kinda rude.
not that I inherently disagree or you're wrong necessary but those two engines are designed for somewhat different applications and directly comparing them is a bit disingenuous
Sure, but the current thinking for the US 6th gen program is to use 2 engines based on technologies used in the F135.
The XA100/102 from GE and the XA101 from P&W.
And france seems to think they can upgrade the M88 to suite their needs, I don't see how but they claim they can.
https://www.safran-group.com/pressroom/safran-aircraft-engines-and-mtu-aero-engines-create-joint-company-eumet-lead-engine-activities-next-2021-04-29
> We are looking forward to effectively undertaking this role and accountabilities throughout the program’s life, starting with key developments in R&T phase along with integrating the M88 engine into the NGF aircraft demonstrator.”
>it really seems like you guys refuse to get along with anyone
do we? we're involved in so many multinational programs yet this board is always compulsively lying about how nobody wants to work with us
The French are the naggers of Europe. At least the Germans actually got punished for their crimes.
Ici on noie les Algériens
>Ici on noie les Algériens
It's a myth. But I will make it come true.
Well, yeah and good luck selling it to European nations
I didn't know Croatia and Greece were outside of Europe.
Thanks.
Yeah when thinking 'wealthy European nation with huge military budget', those 2 are the first to spring to mind, innit?
>moving goalposts
I accept your concession.
When talking Europe, everybody thinks 'Western Europe', except east euros or people engaged in mental gymnastics.
It's clear that the only people buying Rafale are the ones the big boys wont sell to.
Krauts and Frogs are literally made for each other. Both are arrogant shitters who can't cooperate for shit and always cause various problems when their civil servants stick their noses in military programs. They are the perfect containment chamber for each other while everybody else can work in mostly peace.
>Now Europe is stuck with a shitty BAE Mantis copy as their main drone.
Lol
Please explain why the only people buying French are brown then.
>Greece
>Croatia
The US is in the position of trying to be prepared to fight almost anywhere in the world at any time. Central Europe, southeast Asia, MidEast sandbox, and so ground equipment has to be adaptable enough to work in any of those environments.
European militaries are overwhelmingly concerned with fighting on their own fronts, and aren't concerned with how their MBTs are going to perform half a globe away because they're probably never going to deploy there anyway. European MBTs and IFVs can be made with a narrower set of specifications that generally favors European conditions.
Meanwhile, air is pretty similar everywhere. There's considerations for range, basing, and logistics, but flying is flying. Aircraft can be exported more widely around the planet, but they become more expensive and more reliant on foreign sales as a result. With American industry having the bigger budget, American planes will be more versatile and more available, and take greater advantage of economies of scale to produce a capable product at a competitive price. The only reason not to buy American is to either prop up domestic industries (even then, license production is sometimes the best option) or for political reasons.
Money and purpose. America has lots of money and is one country. Either a European country does it alone and has no money, or they group up and there is no singularity of focus.
Because you don"t need stealth jets to bomb thirdies and Europe is not a nation. Their jets are fine against 99% of threats they would be defending against (including the Russia and China)
European planes are sexier
>First flight: 8 February 1967
COMON you cannot post 1960's plane and say it's sexier than an F-35 or something. The 1960s was the most sexy era period for pretty much every fighter. Then speed stopped mattering and the designs got lamer.
>F-4 Phantom
>MiG-25
>YF-12
Panavia Tornado has everything that makes cold war era jets rad
>Supersonic twin-engine layout
>Single huge vertical stabilizer
>Big boxy intakes
>Variable sweep
>2-man crew
it looks sad
I can't take planes with face nose art seriously because of the porn
Where tf are people finding that stuff? I've been on the internet since 1998 and never seen it.
It reminds me of the Banjo Kazooie icons when you're on low health.
i can't find the cover, but one of Asimov's books had a guy half plane with the look of those mig's
wonder who influence who in the tech design and novel writings, hard science novel writers on scientists or other way
Makes me want to vomit
>British 5th gen Level 1 partner experience from JSF
>Japanese 5th gen experience from JFS manufacturing and Shinshin
>Italians 5th gen experience in manufacturing JSF + Ferrari badge on it
Kawaī Ferrari Tempest is going to be fantastic
>British 5th gen experience is entirely based on the little part BAE had in the rejected McDonnell Douglas JSF proposal from the 90s
>Japanese 5th experience is a modified Mitsubishi F-1 with TVC nozzles
>Italians
see you in 2040 dreaming up a 7th generation fighter you will never develop
>bongs get technology transfers on F-35
>both Japan and Italy complete production locally
They have more experience than you pierre
.
They have Leonardo which is amongst the best worldwide on radars and made the wings for the F-35.
Also Italy makes many types of advanced avionics.
Nipshill weeb trannies deserve bullets to their heads
Silence asiatic
엿먹어라 일본
Like clockwork nipshill weeb tranny you never fail to amuse /k with your latent homosexual tendencies
>latent homosexual tendencies
But anon you're the one who spams threads with pictures of shirtless korean guys
> uses the word kawai, even the nipshill knows that the normie world associates weebism with homosexualry and inceldom
I used to bully a nipshill weeb in hs relentlessly, heard he offed himself a few years ago, would never do that in this day in age because of weeb/school shooters but back then it wasn't a thing yet
no European country could've stomached the costs of the F-35 program on its own
The Europeans, in their infinite wisdom, decided to skip an entire generation of fighters without considering what a 30-40 year gap would mean for their militaries and aircraft industries. Now they're trying to develop 6th-generation fighters without having any experience designing 5th-generations. I predict the NGAD will outsell the F-35.
NGAD will not be exported
The alternative will be having allies who can't contribute to an air war.
None of them will contribute much anyway, Russia is obviously not a serious threat which leaves China and Europe won't help much there.
I reckon Australia could probably be sold ngad
Even if it was approved they wouldn't be able to afford them. Makes more sense for Australia to just host US assets, get the benefit without the costs.
This is likely what will happen with B-21 as well. I see people claiming aussies will buy this massive fleet when it would be much easier to have the Americans station their ones there.
I mean the NGAD will cost like 300+ million dollars, considering the ngad won’t replace the F-35, 1 to 1 buying like 16 - 32 or so NGAD with their attached loyal wingmen is well within Australia’s means
>trying to develop 6th-generation fighters without having any experience designing 5th-generations
this is a disaster waiting to happen
>Now they're trying to develop 6th-generation fighters without having any experience designing 5th-generations
Except many of them do have experience with 5th gen courtesy of JSF and production/tech transfers on F-35s.
>I predict the NGAD will outsell the F-35
They're all building 6th gens of their own exactly because the US isn't exporting NGAD you fucking retard.
>the US isn't exporting NGAD you fucking retard.
I don't think you can make such a definitive statement when the plane is 10+ years away from entering service. Remember that export of the F-16 was heavily restricted prior to 1982.
>Meanwhile the Eurofighter is only marginally better than the F-15/F-16 and was built at the same time as the F-22
The EF (35°/s) has about 25% better turn rate that the F-16 (28°/S) and 45% over the F-15.(24°/s). It has IRST, much better maneuverability, carries 20k lbs of weapons vs 17k lbs for the F-16 and 16k lbs for the F-15.
It also entered service 30 years later.
Yes muttard, that was kind of the start of the argument.
And since it was 3 decades newer, it should have blown the F-15 and F-16 out of the water completely. Instead, it's shit like "25% better turn rate" and "17% greater payload".
>Instead, it's shit like "25% better turn rate" and "17% greater payload"
Except it doesn't even have those things.
Because Germany
Yeah.. performance wise it's the same as the F-22, but the Raptor has stealth and TVC
Bruh are you seriously bringing up turn rate in the year of our Lord 2023?
Obviously. It's also an indicator of maneuverability. I guess you're a BVRretardfag. How do you think you evade missiles in BVR engagements
You don't dodge missiles in BVR. You are so stealthy that you never get picked up by the enemy radar in the first place and smoke them first.
>You don't dodge missiles in BVR. You are so stealthy that you never get picked up by the enemy radar in the first place and smoke them first.
LOL AHAHHA. Wrong. Even DCS fags start "defending", what do you think real pilots do? Yeah the original thing from which DCS fags are copying.
>what do you think real pilots do?
They activate their missile shields, making them waste a turn but doubling their defense.
>You are so stealthy that you never get picked up by the enemy radar in the first place and smoke them first.
what if the enemy is equally stealthy?
Tempest started in 2015
Europe was still relevant in the arms industry until the 1990s but the pendulum has clearly swung fully towards the Pacific: US, ROK, and painfully CCP China, its not just the volume or production capabilities, the R&D is primarily occuring in the aforementioned
It's because they don't have a bunch of worthless fly over states that need job subsidies. Europe is also not running an empire, where Americans need to go to mexico & South korea to afford medical treatments.
Flyover states produce the blue-collar workforce of the country, retard. Also, if you don't have health insurance here, you're probably a nagger.
leave with your bait, nagger.
the Eurofighter is only marginally better than the F-15/F-16 and was built at the same time as the F-22
Its considerably superior to both particularly in A2A
>French stealth fighter program supposed to be completed by 2035, UK/Italy/Japan program only started last year
uk/italy/japan programs merged last year both the british and japanese programs have been ongoing for several years
>UK/Italy/Japan program only started last year
Technically true but a lot of the hard R&D has already been done by the parent programs, F-X and Tempest. It's also planned to enter service in 2035.
>I understand that they're behind the US
Everyone is. The euro programs are the only credible 6th gen projects out there besides the burger ones.
yeah lmfao I don't really get the point of these threads. US military and tech hegemony will ensure it will remain, by far, the most powerful army in the world for at the very very least the next 100 years. Year 101 it doesn't matter bc hopefully we'll all be dead from nuclear Armageddon. EUros are not denying this, only the goddamn chinese are, and some goatfuckers in the middleeast who are seemingly craving more bombs dropped on them. For all intents and purposes, the US military is fucking alien tech to the world, the EUros are the average civilized humans, and the rest like China and shit, are still fucking cavemen
The jets are fine. Europeans are not behind on technology.
The Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen not being stealth is a product of the requirement, not the lack of advancement in engineering. The Rafale and Typhoon also have quite a lot of subtle and not so subtle stealthy features.
The clusterfuck that is European fast jet production relates to politics and budgets.
France, UK and Germany have been best buds for about 40 years now. Friendly with germany since the mid 80's. Before that we fought each other for over a 1000 years straight. That history of animosity doesn't die out in 50 years without leaving traces. Thi sis one of them.
Individually, France, UK and Germany are capable of funding and bringing these projects to fruition on their own. The reason we don't is that each of these countries spends monumental amounts of capital on social programs. Defence comes a distant second or third in the modern hierarchy.
The present political systems in place also make it very very difficult to push such huge projects through. We are talking decades of commitment and multiple tens of billions of pounds or euros for something which will have limited export potential that will only be procured in limited numbers.
And the different needs of the different nations make such a collaborative project even MORE difficult.
UK needs a large air superiority/supremacy fighter with some ability to bomb something, somewhere.The French need something that is carrier capable, drop tactical nukes, capable of air superiority, bombing north africans and crucially, preserving its aerospace MIC and therefore has heightened sovereignty requuirements. Germans want an up to date multirole fighter and some level of local production for the euros and political control.
Oh and has to be successful in the export market.
Good luck. America has it so much easier when it comes to requirements.
>America has it so much easier when it comes to requirements.
uh *gestures at the F-35*
A fighter jet is only as good as its engine and the only companies that can produce engines at the top end are General Electric and maybe Rolls Royce, but any advantage Rolls Royce might have is cancelled out by the sheer retardation of British military procurement.
General Electric is a nearly defunct company owned mostly by china.
They are less relevant (and worth less) than porche.
Wanna go ahead and source that for me?
Their largest shareholder is an American investment firm that holds over $2t in assets. 2nd largest shareholder is another American investment firm, this one with $8t in assets. The 3rd largest shareholder is ANOTHER American investment firm, this one with $8.5t is assets.
GE's market cap is 3-4x Porsche.
Why that comparison? The companies are nothing alike.
How come European (and Palestinian) children can afford to go to the dentist but American children can't?
(arguably) the best tank
Not arguably, it's plainly the best, yes.
(arguably) has the best IFV
Uh Puma exists, CV90 is hand-loaded with what, 8 round mags and has 50 year old suspension technology.
>>Has highly advanced anti-air systems
Lacking in the long range department ...
the Eurofighter is only marginally better than the F-15/F-16 and was built at the same time as the F-22
stealth fighter program supposed to be completed by 2035, UK/Italy/Japan program only started last year
>I understand that they're behind the US, but fucking 2035 for a stealth fighter, seriously?
The Eurofighter was intially delayed due to being *sigh* a "multi-national" project, so lots of political bickering.
Then the USSR had the nerve to dissolve half-way into development, so another round of re-negotiating, and more delays.
Germany especially de-prioritized the Eurofighter hard, only the brits had a real interest into pushing it into active service and making it a viable system.
The initial concept (which was cut down a lot) for the Eurofighter is vastly different than the F-22 concept. The europeans evaluated the battlefield over europe, filled with many times more MIGs and Sukhois and S-300 tier AA and decided that stealth won't cut it.
They decided the Eurofighter needs to be survivable even if it is detected, and then stealth is not only unnecessarly, but actually counterproductive due to the compromises stealth incures.
Stealth does not come for free, it adds aerodynamic penalties.
The initial concept from 1987 for the Eurofighter was to just fuck everything up before it can get fucked up.
It was planned to be equipped with the EuroDASS Praetorian defensive suite.
Completely computerized engagement management based on sensor fusion: Radar, FLIR, 360° millimeter-wave radar, laser warning receiver, radar warning receiver, both with accurate localisation abilities.
Passive protection systems: Fully automated, computerized electronic countermeasures (ESM, ECM), flares, chaff, 3 independent towed jammer/decoys with full 9G maneuvering envelope capability
Finally the IRIS-T short-range AA missile is agile enough thanks to thrust vectoring to be used in a hardkill role to shoot down incomming missiles should jamming and decoys fail, targeting data is provided by the very accurate, short ranged millimeterwave radar and/or the passive RWR / LWR.
Passive protection systems: Fully automated, computerized electronic countermeasures (ESM, ECM), flares, chaff, 3 independent towed jammer/decoys with full 9G maneuvering envelope capability
Finally the IRIS-T short-range AA missile is agile enough thanks to thrust vectoring to be used in a hardkill role to shoot down incomming missiles should jamming and decoys fail, targeting data is provided by the very accurate, short ranged millimeterwave radar and/or the passive RWR / LWR.
The computer continually evaluates the combat situation and suggests optimal evasion flightpaths to the pilot on the HUD while automatically managing the vast suite of defensive systems.
For target aquisition, the Eurofighter has advanced EW capabilities and can triangulate sources with networked cooperating pairs of Eurofighters entirely passively and engage with that data.
Sensors are so sensitive that they can beat the angular resultion of the main radar by taking into account wing bending based on current flight state and G loading, and can identify targets passively, without any active emission, at ranges beyond radar range. It's short of magic.
The aerodynamic concept was designed around high-speed high-G turns at high altitude to engage with superior long-range weapons (Ramjet powered Meteors) from a superior kinetic position while bleeding as little energy as possible.
In that area no other plane, not even an F-22 can kinetically keep up with the Eurofighter. The F-22 is simply too draggy and lacks the thrust to make up for it. The Eurocanard-Deltawing is way more efficient at it and the frontal profile of the Eurofighter is purposefully tiny to allow this. That's the tradeoff which was made in terms of stealth: Aerodynamic concerns where put first.
In dogfights the Eurofighter lacks any high AoA abilities and is limited to ~22 degrees AoA afair, but has a way superior missile in the thrust-vectoring IRIS-T with mechanically mirror shaded line-based imaging IR seeker which is incredibly difficult to jam, which is ofc LOAL capable and essentially has a 360° envelope.
Dogfights where not considered to be the primary issue, the Eurofighter is supposed to win the BVR fights.
That's the 1987 concept. Some of that was, but the 1987 concept was FAR beyond even what an F-22 or F-35 can do today in the Air-to-Air realm, and even today the Eurofighter has significant advantages over both planes (especially the F-35 lol) in the A2A area. Since politics delayed the project massively and since nobody can be bothered even translating the (excellent) german wiki article on these systems into english, hardly anyone knows about them.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroDASS_Praetorian
Much like the F-15 "no pound for air to ground" the initial Eurofighter concept was a pure A2A machine with no A2G considerations at all.
You burgers should stop dismissing anything that isn't stealth as garbage by default, it's an unproven concept and mostly countered by now.
tl;dr - The Eurofighter had the "hurr durr sensor fusion" F-35 has a decade earlier and on steroids and is kinetically still uniquely best for BVR A2A
This entire post is pure, undiluted copium.
Everything you said is only true if you saddle down the F-22 with external tanks.
>Stealth is a meme
Everyone point and laugh. "We couldn't figure it out, so it's not worth it."
I love the Eurofighter and I think it's the equal of the F-15C, but you really need to shut the fuck up
EF would trash an F15/16 as would a Rafale. They dont even compare. Especially the latest EF with ecrs mk2, realistically the only jet to best this model of EF would be the F22.
>EF would trash an F15/16
No.
>as would a Rafale
Maybe.
>They're built with a specific mission in mind
Isn't the Rafale trumpeted as omnirole?
"""omnirole""" is just frogspeak for "please please PLEASE buy our shit". It's a mediocre 4th gen thats only unique selling point is that France will sell it to literally anyone with no second thought as to human rights abuses, detriment to western interests in the region or even potential for reverse engineering western tech (see French helicopter sales to China)
The reason posters on here think it's better than the Eurofighter is that Dassault put out way more marketing material and so information is more readily available. The Typhoon claps the Rafale at air to air and it's not even close. Better kinematics, more power (electrical and thrust), fucking colossal IRST sensor. It flies higher, goes faster, sees and throws missiles further.
Rafale's core goal is to be a jobs program for French industry. That they've ended up with a decent aircraft is admirable, but it's not at the level as the combined industrial and technological output of the rest of Europe.
The delusion is hard. Still waiting for the AESA upgrade on the Typhoon eh Nigel?
Is that really a stone frogs want to throw? RBE2-AA took ages to develop and has shit performance compared to American (or Japanese) radars.
It exists, unlike Captor E
It has been in limited service since 2021.
Most of the euro nations seem more keen to wait for ECRS Mk2 instead of Mk0.
When is RBE2-AA getting an upgrade?
>When is RBE2-AA getting an upgrade?
The RBE2 XG which will be full GaN and A.I. based will be flight tested in 2028 and enter service in 2030 with the F5 standard.
>https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_RBE2#RBE2-XG
>https://www.gifas.fr/press-summary/lancement-de-l-etude-de-developpement-du-radar-rbe2-xg-qui-equipera-le-standard-f5-du-rafale
it'll still be vastly restricted by its size
With half the TR modules of the ecrs mk2 radar that typhoon is getting and a fraction of the processing power.
>Especially the latest EF with ecrs mk2, realistically the only jet to best this model of EF would be the F22.
The Eurofighter is entirely untouchable. It was build do dominate A2A and has tools no other plane has to do so.
In a fair 1vs1 fight, the EF pilot would need to fuck up very badly to loose against literally any plane.
He has superior long-range missiles, so can immediately seize the initiative and go offensive, forcing the enemy into defense.
If actually pressed by the enemy, he has absolutely overwhelming defensive options no other plane even comes close to, allowing him to negate pretty much all BVR missile threats.
Only in a dogfight, which would be pretty unrealistic to consider happening, could the EF be failed since some HOBS could potentially be too challenging for a reliable IRIS-T hardkill, and the IRIS-T loadout of the EF could become depleated during the BVR exchange.
But it's way more realistic to assume a BVR kill w/ the far superior Meteor, or the enemy being wise and running away.
You can theoretically construct scenarios where the F-22's attack from multiple angles and use datalink to stay passive and spam some AMRAAMS from medium range undetected to overwhelm the EF's defensive suite.
But that would require an overmatch in F-22 numbers and really bad weather for the EF to be blind to the flanking F-22's and even the missile launch on FLIR.
>Dassault rafale is a phenomenal aircraft.
It's a 10% smaller Eurofighter with the same exact concept, but instead of 3 countries combining funding and know-how it's all french.
The engines are a half gen behind in thrust to weight and it was also shoehorned onto french carriers.
It's a lot worse than a EF, and the only way it was better is that it was mature earlier since the french didn't have to deal with politics during development.
>as is the Gripen.
A single bug engine? Did you check the performance of that plane? It's almost as anemic as an F-35 kinematically.
retard post of the year
>designed around high-speed high-G turns at high altitude to engage with superior long-range weapons
You don't need "high-G turns" when talking about BVR because that's the easiest way to get killed.
>(Ramjet powered Meteors)
Ramjet for MRAAM is a dead concept. AIM-260 isn't ramjet and the new Jap missile after UK being unable to deliver for JNAAM is not ramjet.
>position while bleeding as little energy as possible
Saying the EF is designed to bleed as little energy as possible just shows how retarded you are when delta canards are some of the least energy efficient in a turn.
>not even an F-22 can kinetically keep up with the Eurofighter. The F-22 is simply too draggy and lacks the thrust to make up for it.
A single F119 has almost double the thrust of a EJ200.
>tradeoff which was made in terms of stealth: Aerodynamic concerns where put first.
As time goes on this is becoming more and more of a bad decision not even brits still believe this.
>superior missile in the thrust-vectoring IRIS-T with mechanically mirror shaded line-based imaging IR seeker which is incredibly difficult to jam, which is ofc LOAL has a 360° envelope.
Bog standard for 4th gen AAM
>Dogfights where not considered to be the primary issue, the Eurofighter is supposed to win the BVR fights.
EF is getting absolutely bodied in a BVR fight against the F-22.
>That's the 1987 concept.
So doesn't actually exist.
>Some of that was, but the 1987 concept was FAR beyond even what an F-22 or F-35 can do today
Wow fantasies sure are better than real life. My fantasy plane has nuclear fussion engines and can shoot down any plane with lasers. It's better than the F-22 and F-35. See how easy it is when you can just make up bullshit in your mind.
>hardly anyone knows about them.
You are retarded if you think DASS is some obscure system.
>"hurr durr sensor fusion" F-35 has a decade earlier and on steroids
The entire concept for it's sensor fusion is built on US systems that actually did exist.
>You don't need "high-G turns" when talking about BVR because that's the easiest way to get killed.
Only if you build fat retarded stealth designs which can't turn for shit.
>>(Ramjet powered Meteors)
>Ramjet for MRAAM is a dead concept.
On way to say "we were caught of guard by the chinese and need to rush something out the door and are too dumb to make scramjet work in a hurry"
For rocket engines, you need 3x more oxidizer than you need fuel.
Using a ramjet and not needing the oxidizer is obviously a gigantic advantage, and the reason why the Meteor outperforms the AMRAAM by more than a factor of 2.
>AIM-260 isn't ramjet and the new Jap missile after UK being unable to deliver for JNAAM is not ramjet.
Ok so you guys and the japs suck ass. The russians had ramjet A2A missiles for decades, and so do the euros, and it's clearly the superior concept.
>Saying the EF is designed to bleed as little energy as possible just shows how retarded you are when delta canards are some of the least energy efficient in a turn.
Not in the relevant envelope.
>A single F119 has almost double the thrust of a EJ200.
Doesn't matter, frontal area of a EF is tiny and thrust-to-drag is far superior. It's a much smaller plane, too.
>EF is getting absolutely bodied in a BVR fight against the F-22.
It is impossible and not desired to accurately model BVR, and hence it isn't done. Mock BVR is entirely meaningless for actual evaluation of plane performane. The US by default puts radar reflectors on their stealth planes, and pretty much nobody wants to show all their EW gimmicks. A missile launch withhin theoretical envelope is simply counted as kill. It's honestly less realistic than DCS in many regards, at least in terms of simulating weapons and EW, and ESPECIALLY so cross-country. Even between "allies".
One exception would be the famous Gripen demo where the swedes apparently got tired of lack of sales and suprised everyone with their top notch EW sneaking up on blind F-35's.
>fantasies
A lot of those "fantasies" were realised.
>You are retarded if you think DASS is some obscure system.
Well you managed to demonstrate that you're unaware of capabilities advertised in 15 year old PDF brochures linked on the wikipedia article of the plane.
>The entire concept for it's sensor fusion is built on US systems that actually did exist.
The US lacks a lot of the systems the EF has, and the ones the US does have are generally less sophisticated.
>
In dogfights the Eurofighter lacks any high AoA abilities and is limited to ~22 degrees AoA afair, but has a way superior missile in the thrust-vectoring IRIS-T with mechanically mirror shaded line-based imaging IR seeker which is incredibly difficult to jam, which is ofc LOAL capable and essentially has a 360° envelope.
Dogfights where not considered to be the primary issue, the Eurofighter is supposed to win the BVR fights.
That's the 1987 concept. Some of that was, but the 1987 concept was FAR beyond even what an F-22 or F-35 can do today in the Air-to-Air realm, and even today the Eurofighter has significant advantages over both planes (especially the F-35 lol) in the A2A area. Since politics delayed the project massively and since nobody can be bothered even translating the (excellent) german wiki article on these systems into english, hardly anyone knows about them.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroDASS_Praetorian
Much like the F-15 "no pound for air to ground" the initial Eurofighter concept was a pure A2A machine with no A2G considerations at all.
You burgers should stop dismissing anything that isn't stealth as garbage by default, it's an unproven concept and mostly countered by now.
tl;dr - The Eurofighter had the "hurr durr sensor fusion" F-35 has a decade earlier and on steroids and is kinetically still uniquely best for BVR A2A
>This entire post is pure, undiluted copium.
The entire board is MURRICA #1 copium.
is a meme
>Everyone point and laugh. "We couldn't figure it out, so it's not worth it."
Stealth is a trivial concept and not difficult to figure out. You could maybe argue that implementing stealth would pose a manufacturing challenge to, say the russians in terms of surface quality.
But in general european planes have much tighter tolerances than US planes and extremely high manufacturing tolerances. Figuring out the design part is very trivial, it was well understood physics to 1980's plane engineers in the EU.
Only in discovery channel tier documentary knowledge circles like /k/ is stealth considered mystery high-tech.
>Stealth is unnecessary
>It's actually counterproductive
>Anyway, here's like 6 different radar countermeasures
is unnecessary
It doesn't work is the main issue.
, here's like 6 different radar countermeasures
Which do work, and thusly are superior to stealth.
Also more expensive.
And require more know-how.
Know-how the US doesn't have btw.
(arguably) the best tank
>>can build three new ones in a decade. If they really, really try hard
>if you cant replace combat losses those are just new tiger wunderwaffles. Good for what it was in class, bad for sustainability
KMW had hundreds of decommissioned german army Leopard 2's standing around in their yard. At one point 700, quite the sight to behold.
The few small orders of european countries (100 here, 100 there) were fullfilled by retrofitting those.
Post-cold-war stuff, keep the factory alive, but realistically nobody ordering many tanks, not even the most popular export tank in NATO.
Other countries don't exactly do better, they had to close their factories for the most part and they went bankrupt.
Countries outside germany who do build tanks do so by buying german components.
MTU diesel engines, RENK gearboxes, DIEHL tracks, RHEINMETALL guns, DEISENROTH armor packages, ZEISS optics ...
Nobody except germany can actually build a state-of-the-art tank with locally produced components.
There is also no incentive for KMW to scale up production. Nobody gave them a big order and money.
Sure the ukrainians want tanks, but they don't wanna pay for them, so KMW doesn't do jack shit.
Is KMW supposed to gift them for free or what? Ur kinda retarded.
>Rheinmetall claims to be able to produce 400 Panthers per year.
Rheinmetall is a big ass defense conglomerate, many of their holdings are older than WW2. They've been building lots of shit for 80+ years.
They don't "claim" shit, that's what they can actually do.
>It doesn't work is the main issue.
Lol. Is that why stealth fighters have to fly with Luneberg lenses to increase their RCS during exercise? Is that why literally everyone is building stealth fighters now including every main EU country?
>MTU diesel engines, RENK gearboxes, DIEHL tracks, RHEINMETALL guns, DEISENROTH armor packages, ZEISS optics ...
>Nobody except germany can actually build a state-of-the-art tank with locally produced components.
US? Japan?
>Rheinmetall is a big ass defense conglomerate, many of their holdings are older than WW2.
That isn't unique
>They've been building lots of shit for 80+ years. They don't "claim" shit, that's what they can actually do.
Is that why Greece is the only place making new hulls? It's a claim because they haven't actually proven anything.
>
It doesn't work is the main issue.
, here's like 6 different radar countermeasures
Which do work, and thusly are superior to stealth.
Also more expensive.
And require more know-how.
Know-how the US doesn't have btw.
[...]
(arguably) the best tank
>>can build three new ones in a decade. If they really, really try hard
>if you cant replace combat losses those are just new tiger wunderwaffles. Good for what it was in class, bad for sustainability
KMW had hundreds of decommissioned german army Leopard 2's standing around in their yard. At one point 700, quite the sight to behold.
The few small orders of european countries (100 here, 100 there) were fullfilled by retrofitting those.
Post-cold-war stuff, keep the factory alive, but realistically nobody ordering many tanks, not even the most popular export tank in NATO.
Other countries don't exactly do better, they had to close their factories for the most part and they went bankrupt.
Countries outside germany who do build tanks do so by buying german components.
MTU diesel engines, RENK gearboxes, DIEHL tracks, RHEINMETALL guns, DEISENROTH armor packages, ZEISS optics ...
Nobody except germany can actually build a state-of-the-art tank with locally produced components.
There is also no incentive for KMW to scale up production. Nobody gave them a big order and money.
Sure the ukrainians want tanks, but they don't wanna pay for them, so KMW doesn't do jack shit.
Is KMW supposed to gift them for free or what? Ur kinda retarded.
[...]
>Rheinmetall claims to be able to produce 400 Panthers per year.
Rheinmetall is a big ass defense conglomerate, many of their holdings are older than WW2. They've been building lots of shit for 80+ years.
They don't "claim" shit, that's what they can actually do.
>>It doesn't work is the main issue.
>Lol. Is that why stealth fighters have to fly with Luneberg lenses to increase their RCS during exercise?
They don't have to, the US is paranoid about accurate signatures leaking (which they already have)
>Is that why literally everyone is building stealth fighters now including every main EU country?
Well 2 things are different. Stealth is not considered be-all-end-all, it's used in much more moderation.
Secondly computational fluid dynamics and processing power made insane progress, so now stealth designs with less bad aerodynamic tradeoffs are possible.
6th gen will basically sacrifice nothing aerodynamically for stealth, yet achieve meaningful reducting in signature.
Basically you can get some stealth "for free". It will be less stealth than on an F-22 tho, and rightfully so.
except germany can actually build a state-of-the-art tank with locally produced components.
>US? Japan?
I said state-of-the-art, not a pile of shit. The Abrams engine consumes 2x the fuel and 10x the air (IR signature lol) of an MTU diesel engine. The Abrams gun is a license build straight up copy of the German 120mm Rheinmetall gun, and since the US did exactly zero development, their only state-of-the-art gun option would be to license the Rheinmetall 130mm.
The Japs also had to license the german gun, and their diesel, while 20 years newer than the EuropowerPack, has worse performance specs.
Yeah, nah. If you want a tank there's just the germans. Everyone else is either licensing german tech, buying german tech, illegally copying german tech, or using a volvo truck engine or a heli turbine cause that's all they can make.
>Basically you can get some stealth "for free". It will be less stealth than on an F-22 tho, and rightfully so.
No they aren't you retard. 6th gen is pushing stealth even harder and trying to go into observable stealth as a concept.
>I said state-of-the-art, not a pile of shit. The Abrams engine consumes 2x the fuel and 10x the air (IR signature lol) of an MTU diesel engine.
You know nothing about engines and are just spouting pop science bs.
>The Abrams gun is a license build straight up copy of the German 120mm Rheinmetall gun
The only thing they kept was the barrel. The breach and recoil mechanism is a brand new design.
>and since the US did exactly zero development, their only state-of-the-art gun option would be to license the Rheinmetall 130mm.
The US has the XM360 as well as multiple 140mm programs.
>The Japs also had to license the german gun
They had a domestic design that was superior to the Rheinmetall gun, but was too expensive. The Type 10 uses a modernized version of that gun and is entirely indigenous.
>while 20 years newer than the EuropowerPack, has worse performance specs.
What like single digit hp/m^3 difference? Now Japan has a 1200hp powerpack half the size of most 1500 class PP outputting more horsepower to the sprokets.
>You're obviously entirely unaware of how MTU earns money.
Cool show me MTU's 15t+ class jet engine operating at 1900C for an extended test.
> 6th gen is pushing stealth even harder
Ok post some proof of that.
>The Abrams engine consumes 2x the fuel and 10x the air (IR signature lol) of an MTU diesel engine.
>You know nothing about engines and are just spouting pop science bs.
Obviously the company who makes the turbine highlights the advantages.
MTU won't tell you either than their diesel is 3x the weight of the turbine.
See picture, Abrams vs Leopard 2 fuel consumption during swedish trials.
Straight up double.
>>The Abrams gun is a license build straight up copy of the German 120mm Rheinmetall gun
>The only thing they kept was the barrel. The breach and recoil mechanism is a brand new design.
The barrel of a smoothbore gun? So a ... pipe? They had to license a pipe from the germans, but were able to design a brand new breach and recoil mechanism which then ended up having 80% parts commonality with the Leopard 2 ? Interesting.
Did they pay all these millions to Rheinmetall out of the kindness of their hearts as well?
>>and since the US did exactly zero development, their only state-of-the-art gun option would be to license the Rheinmetall 130mm.
>The US has the XM360 as well as multiple 140mm programs.
The 140mm has trash performance since it's an ancient design and the XM360 is a desperate attempt to not having to increase the size of an Abrams turret, using fancy unproven tech to squeeze more out of a 120mm. Highly experimental.
The 130mm delivers 50% more muzzle energy as a 120mm in a much smaller footprint than the 140mm AND has all the growth potential the XM360 doesn't.
Neither the XM360 nore the 140mm are a real choice for a new tank.
>They had a domestic design that was superior to the Rheinmetall gun, but was too expensive. The Type 10 uses a modernized version of that gun and is entirely indigenous.
That must be why MHI is too scared of lawsuits to offer it for exports.
>Ok post some proof of that.
https://warriormaven.com/air/how-will-the-6th-gen-stealth-jet-out-perform-upgraded-f-22s
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/6th-generation-stealth-fighter-could-out-stealth-b-21-raider-181064
>MTU won't tell you either than their diesel is 3x the weight of the turbine.
So what you are saying is that the AGT 1500 has better power ranges in most of the relevant areas and is 1/3 the weight with the only tradeoff being it uses more fuel which is easily fixed by a competent logistics network? Cool
>The barrel of a smoothbore gun? So a ... pipe? They had to license a pipe from the germans, but were able to design a brand new breach and recoil mechanism
Yeah it's pretty common. Many countries did the same for the L7 as well. The 80% commonality is bs by the way.
>The 140mm has trash performance since it's an ancient design and the XM360 is a desperate attemp
More cope. You claimed that there has been no development and the only choice is German when it isn't.
>That must be why MHI is too scared of lawsuits to offer it for exports.
Japan legally can't export weapons.
>A 1200 HP engine outputting more HP than a 1500 HP engine?
Yeah a powerpack is more than just the engine with the HMT transmission more power is getting put to the sprocket than a 1500hp engine.
>They need 22.6 liters for 1200 HP
That's because the MHI engine is using a long stroke ratio. It's cylinders are 150x160 (0.9375 for better low RPM torque vs the Puma's 115x107 (1.07). The MHI is also a V8 rather than a V10 like the 892.
>at less than HALF the weight
Comparing dry vs wet weight now?
>MTU's history of providing a couple tens of thousands of tank engines to customers.
>MHI has made 117 so far.
Comparing a single engine vs an entire catalogue. MHI has been producing diesel engines before MTU even existed. They are literally the oldest diesel engine producers for tanks since they did it first.
20 years newer than the EuropowerPack, has worse performance specs.
>What like single digit hp/m^3 difference? Now Japan has a 1200hp powerpack half the size of most 1500 class PP outputting more horsepower to the sprokets.
A 1200 HP engine outputting more HP than a 1500 HP engine?
I see, the japanese literally transcend mere math.
Are you wearing your foam padded cap in case you hit your head again?
They need 22.6 liters for 1200 HP
The MTU 892 series does 1090 HP from 11.1 liters, at less than HALF the weight, with the impeccible reliability of MTU's history of providing a couple tens of thousands of tank engines to customers.
MHI has made 117 so far.
>>You're obviously entirely unaware of how MTU earns money.
>Cool show me MTU's 15t+ class jet engine operating at 1900C for an extended test.
MTU does not build (complete) engines. Like i said, you're unaware.
is a big ass defense conglomerate, many of their holdings are older than WW2.
>That isn't unique
>>They've been building lots of shit for 80+ years. They don't "claim" shit, that's what they can actually do.
>Is that why Greece is the only place making new hulls?
The greek insisted on new hulls (for no good reason, the refurb hulls are as new) cause they wanted local jobs for the economy.
They were incredibly distrustful of the germans (rightfully so, we fucked them overhard with austerity lol) for example they bought 161 turrets (made in germany by rheinmetall) for their 160 tanks, picked one at random and shot 32 rounds of US made and Israeli made AT rounds at it for testing.
One of these 32 round partially penetrated into the thermal imager compartment (not crew compartment) and rheinmetall decided to retrofit all turrets with an additional 300mm armor block at that spot.
Yes, you read right, a Leo 2 turret can stomach 32 rounds in the face without penetration. Meanwhile Iraqi Abrams turrets desintegrate after 1 hit lol.
>It's a claim because they haven't actually proven anything.
Well go get a tour of the assembly lines, they have 25k employees, they can shit out 400 tanks all day.
>Rheinmetall is a big ass defense conglomerate,
It's really not that big, BAE or Lockheed could buy the whole thing without flinching.
Pure AIR SUPERIORITY > Stealth in terms of sexiness.
>The initial concept from 1987 for the Eurofighter was to just fuck everything up before it can get fucked up.
>The EF was supposed to have all this super duper cool stuff
But it didn't actually happen. DASS is majorly cut down from this.
>Fully automated, computerized electronic countermeasures (ESM, ECM), flares, chaff, 3 independent towed jammer/decoys with full 9G maneuvering envelope capability
That is basically the standard. The AN/ALE-50 was deployed in 1995.
>Finally the IRIS-T short-range AA missile is agile enough thanks to thrust vectoring
Bog standard for any SRAAM
>to be used in a hardkill role to shoot down incomming missiles
Diehl doesn't even make such a retarded claim.
>passive RWR
Literally not possible with the EF RWR sensor setup. You need at least 3 for triangulation the japs did a study on exactly that.
>LWR.
Another retarded claim. There is very little that actually does targeting using lasers in an anti-air role, let alone any aircraft or missile. What target would even be using laser targeting against a EF2000 that would be within an IRIS-T engagement envelope.
>The computer continually evaluates the combat situation and suggests optimal evasion flightpaths to the pilot on the HUD
It doesn't
>For target aquisition, the Eurofighter has advanced EW capabilities and can triangulate sources with networked cooperating pairs of Eurofighters entirely passively and engage with that data.
Again bog standard for literally anything running Link 16 which the EF is using. This isn't some achievement since it's an American system.
>Sensors are so sensitive that they can beat the angular resultion of the main radar by taking into account wing bending based on current flight state and G loading, and can identify targets passively, without any active emission, at ranges beyond radar range. It's short of magic.
Pulling more bullshit out of your ass. If passive sensors were that superior to radar then no one would bother with radar.
>That is basically the standard. The AN/ALE-50 was deployed in 1995.
It's basically a bolt-on pod, not fully integrated 3 times.
the IRIS-T short-range AA missile is agile enough thanks to thrust vectoring
>Bog standard for any SRAAM
Twice as many G as an AIM-9X.
>>to be used in a hardkill role to shoot down incomming missiles
>Diehl doesn't even make such a retarded claim.
Uh yeah they do here is the PDF from Diehl's website:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130612054850/http://www.diehl.com/fileadmin/diehl-defence/user_upload/flyer/IRIS-T_e_Eurofighter.pdf
Page 2, "Anti-missile capability against incoming A/A and S/A missiles"
>>LWR.
>What target would even be using laser targeting against a EF2000 that would be within an IRIS-T engagement envelope.
FLIR does give you excellent identification and bearing, but no range ...
>>The computer continually evaluates the combat situation and suggests optimal evasion flightpaths to the pilot on the HUD
>It doesn't
Uh yeah it does. It does much, much more which is ofc classified.
>Again bog standard for literally anything running Link 16 which the EF is using. This isn't some achievement since it's an American system.
American system designed and manufactured by european electronics contractors?
>Pulling more bullshit out of your ass.
It's literally on the wiki page i linked with sources. You lack even basic wikipedia knowledge.
>If passive sensors were that superior to radar then no one would bother with radar.
Why you think nobody was in a rush to put AESA on the Eurofighter.
>It's basically a bolt-on pod, not fully integrated 3 times.
It makes no difference as the ALE-50 doesn't take up pylon space and yours doesn't exist.
>Twice as many G as an AIM-9X.
Maybe a block I, but we are on block III at this point
>FLIR does give you excellent identification and bearing, but no range
FLIR isn't the same as LWR.
>h yeah it does. It does much, much more which is ofc classified.
So its nothing
>American system designed and manufactured by european electronics contractors?
I assume you mean BAE Sys which is American owned.
>It's literally on the wiki page i linked with sources. You lack even basic wikipedia knowledge.
It isn't anywhere.
>Why you think nobody was in a rush to put AESA on the Eurofighter.
They have been trying for literal decades you retard. The exact opposite has happened where GER has been in no rush to put PIRATE on their EF despite it's uber radar beating superiority.
>Only if you build fat retarded stealth designs which can't turn for shit.
>Your ass again
Clean Dutch F-16s were still struggling to fight F-35s carrying internal GBUs
https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=58250&start=45
>Ok so you guys and the japs suck ass. The russians had ramjet A2A missiles for decades,
>The Russian's are technologically superior than the US and Japan
The Russian missile went absolutely nowhere and isn't decades old. Both the US and Japan have ramjet tech that they have put on missiles.
>Not in the relevant envelope.
>Nuh Uh
Retard
>Doesn't matter, frontal area of a EF is tiny and thrust-to-drag is far superior. It's a much smaller plane, too.
It barely gets a 0.07 T/W advantage in a nearly clean interceptor config.
>It is impossible and not desired to accurately model BVR
cope
>A lot of those "fantasies" were realised.
No you admit yourself they were just the proposed 1987 config
>The US lacks a lot of the systems the EF has
Such as?
>manufacturing challenge
It is and the EU hasn't figured it out on their own.
>
It's basically a bolt-on pod, not fully integrated 3 times.
the IRIS-T short-range AA missile is agile enough thanks to thrust vectoring
>Bog standard for any SRAAM
Twice as many G as an AIM-9X.
>>to be used in a hardkill role to shoot down incomming missiles
>Diehl doesn't even make such a retarded claim.
Uh yeah they do here is the PDF from Diehl's website:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130612054850/http://www.diehl.com/fileadmin/diehl-defence/user_upload/flyer/IRIS-T_e_Eurofighter.pdf
Page 2, "Anti-missile capability against incoming A/A and S/A missiles"
>>LWR.
>What target would even be using laser targeting against a EF2000 that would be within an IRIS-T engagement envelope.
FLIR does give you excellent identification and bearing, but no range ...
>>The computer continually evaluates the combat situation and suggests optimal evasion flightpaths to the pilot on the HUD
>It doesn't
Uh yeah it does. It does much, much more which is ofc classified.
>Again bog standard for literally anything running Link 16 which the EF is using. This isn't some achievement since it's an American system.
American system designed and manufactured by european electronics contractors?
>Pulling more bullshit out of your ass.
It's literally on the wiki page i linked with sources. You lack even basic wikipedia knowledge.
>If passive sensors were that superior to radar then no one would bother with radar.
Why you think nobody was in a rush to put AESA on the Eurofighter.
>It makes no difference as the ALE-50 doesn't take up pylon space and yours doesn't exist.
It does exist and is fully integrated into the wing/vertical stab, which has no drag penalty, ALE pylon does.
>Maybe a block I, but we are on block III at this point
Doesn't matter, you refused to develop a new missile, the AIM-9x still uses the ancient motor.
>>FLIR does give you excellent identification and bearing, but no range
>FLIR isn't the same as LWR.
Yeah i was afraid you would fail to understand. Little bit of a test tbh. Ofc you combine FLIR with laser rangefinding for a complete targeting solution, hence why LWR.
>I assume you mean BAE Sys which is American owned.
Atlas (german) Leonardo (italian) etc ...
>It isn't anywhere.
So we're at the level where you deny the existance of linked wikipedia entries? Are you child or mentally disturbed?
>They have been trying for literal decades you retard.
Ah, mentally disturbed then. I will consider this as your defeat in the argument.
>>The Russian's are technologically superior than the US and Japan
>The Russian missile went absolutely nowhere and isn't decades old. Both the US and Japan have ramjet tech that they have put on missiles.
The R-77 has been in service since 1994.
By 20 different operators.
't matter, frontal area of a EF is tiny and thrust-to-drag is far superior. It's a much smaller plane, too.
>It barely gets a 0.07 T/W advantage in a nearly clean interceptor config.
You're confusing Thrust-to-Weight with Thrust-to-Drag. I get it, both long confusing words and they look so similar.
Don't you have some homework to do or something, Cleetus?
It does exist and is fully integrated into the wing/vertical stab, which has no drag penalty, ALE pylon does.
It's literally an external part on the wingtip and there isn't 3 of them.
>Doesn't matter, you refused to develop a new missile, the AIM-9x still uses the ancient motor.
The block III upgrade includes a better motor.
>Yeah i was afraid you would fail to understand. Little bit of a test tbh. Ofc you combine FLIR with laser rangefinding for a complete targeting solution, hence why LWR.
Yeah I'm afraid you are a retard gorilla nagger. LWR stands for Laser Warning Receiver and detects incoming laser emissions. The Tyhpoon doesn't have a laser rangefinder in PIRATE
>Atlas (german)
Their only relation to Link 16 is ADLiS which can integrate into Link 16 networks and didn't develop on it.
>Leonardo (italian)
You mean Leonardo DRS which is American owned?
>So we're at the level where you deny the existance of linked wikipedia entries? Are you child or mentally disturbed?
You don't quote it at all and ctrl+f any of your buzzwords gets no results
>Ah, mentally disturbed then. I will consider this as your defeat in the argument.
>n 1993 a European research project was launched to create the Airborne Multirole Solid State Active Array Radar (AMSAR); it was run by the British-French-German GTDAR ("GEC-Thomson-DASA Airborne Radar") consortium (now Selex ES, Thales and Airbus respectively).[5] This evolved into the CAESAR (Captor Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar), now known as Captor-E Active electronically scanned array.[5]
>The R-77 has been in service since 1994.
The baseline R-77 isn't a ramjet fuckhead. Only the R-77-PD which was revealed in like 2014 and went nowhere.
>You're confusing Thrust-to-Weight with Thrust-to-Drag. I get it, both long confusing words and they look so similar.
Show me wind tunnel details of both the EF and F-22 or you are pulling the whole "drag" argument out of your ass.
>It's literally an external part on the wingtip and there isn't 3 of them.
You obviously aren't aware of wing-tip vortex issues and the necessity for structure there anyways. Sorry my fault to assume you know something.
>The block III upgrade includes a better motor.
No, a longer motor for more range. You burgers did the same retardation before, prioritizing range over agility in missiles. This will make the AIM-9 WORSE for WVR.
Also it's a development program, far from being fielded.
>Yeah I'm afraid you are a retard gorilla nagger. LWR stands for Laser Warning Receiver and detects incoming laser emissions. The Tyhpoon doesn't have a laser rangefinder in PIRATE
Yeah see the ENEMY would need one to ILLUMINATE the EF since the enemy is primitive Sukhois.
>Their only relation to Link 16
That's beyond relevant. Your comprehension is really embarrassing.
(italian)
>You mean Leonardo DRS which is American owned?
no.
>>So we're at the level where you deny the existance of linked wikipedia entries? Are you child or mentally disturbed?
>You don't quote it at all and ctrl+f any of your buzzwords gets no results
How about you read the entire article? You seem to know 0% of it.
>Show me wind tunnel details of both the EF and F-22 or you are pulling the whole "drag" argument out of your ass.
That would be classified for both, but is also not required. Comparing the frontal crosssection, which is publicly known is sufficient.
Drag coefficient can obviously be assumed to be close enough for comparison, even if you assume 1:1 in favor for the F-22 (it's worse) ignoring the inferior solution to the problem of supersonic trim drag.
They’re saying if you keep shilling the EF it won’t get lit up by a stealth fighter before it can do anything and the magic anti-stealth button will now be installed on all euro planes
>You obviously aren't aware of wing-tip vortex issues and the necessity for structure there anyways. Sorry my fault to assume you know something.
That isn't a wingtip vortex issue. They both hold ECM and the towed decoy equipment.
>No, a longer motor for more range. You burgers did the same retardation before, prioritizing range over agility in missiles. This will make the AIM-9 WORSE for WVR. Also it's a development program, far from being fielded.
It's a new motor quit coping
>Yeah see the ENEMY would need one to ILLUMINATE the EF since the enemy is primitive Sukhois.
No Sukhoi has a laser rangefinder and you can't tell the distance from someone else illuminating you. Quit coping for being a retard that doesn't know what LWR means.
>That's beyond relevant. Your comprehension is really embarrassing.
>Erm these companies made Link 16
>Didn't make them
>Achually thats entirely irrelevant.
You are the only one with comprehension issues not knowing what LWR means.
>no
Cool because no other Leonardo division did work on Link 16 meaning no european component contributed to it.
>How about you read the entire article? You seem to know 0% of it.
I looked through it and found nothing. You still refuse to quote the section that you claim mentions it. You also still fail to address that Germany didn't even bother putting PIRATE on their EF despite you claiming that it's flat out superior to even AESA radar. You fail to address that CAPTOR-E has been in development for literal decades since 1993 despite claiming their was no effort to develop it because PIRATE was so superior.
>That would be classified for both, but is also not required. Comparing the frontal crosssection, which is publicly known is sufficient.
>Drag coefficient can obviously be assumed to be close enough for comparison, even if you assume 1:1 in favor for the F-22 (it's worse) ignoring the inferior solution to the problem of supersonic trim drag.
I would love if you shared your math on this.
>
You obviously aren't aware of wing-tip vortex issues and the necessity for structure there anyways. Sorry my fault to assume you know something.
>The block III upgrade includes a better motor.
No, a longer motor for more range. You burgers did the same retardation before, prioritizing range over agility in missiles. This will make the AIM-9 WORSE for WVR.
Also it's a development program, far from being fielded.
>Yeah I'm afraid you are a retard gorilla nagger. LWR stands for Laser Warning Receiver and detects incoming laser emissions. The Tyhpoon doesn't have a laser rangefinder in PIRATE
Yeah see the ENEMY would need one to ILLUMINATE the EF since the enemy is primitive Sukhois.
>Their only relation to Link 16
That's beyond relevant. Your comprehension is really embarrassing.
(italian)
>You mean Leonardo DRS which is American owned?
no.
>>So we're at the level where you deny the existance of linked wikipedia entries? Are you child or mentally disturbed?
>You don't quote it at all and ctrl+f any of your buzzwords gets no results
How about you read the entire article? You seem to know 0% of it.
>Show me wind tunnel details of both the EF and F-22 or you are pulling the whole "drag" argument out of your ass.
That would be classified for both, but is also not required. Comparing the frontal crosssection, which is publicly known is sufficient.
Drag coefficient can obviously be assumed to be close enough for comparison, even if you assume 1:1 in favor for the F-22 (it's worse) ignoring the inferior solution to the problem of supersonic trim drag.
>>You obviously aren't aware of wing-tip vortex issues and the necessity for structure there anyways. Sorry my fault to assume you know something.
>That isn't a wingtip vortex issue. They both hold ECM and the towed decoy equipment.
Go find out why 16's always carry a wingtip pylon, if that doesn't help maybe google "wing tip vortex".
>It's a new motor quit coping
It's a 50G at best HOB, IRIS-T is a 100G+ HOB, quit coping.
The new motor will turn it into an even worse missile.
>No Sukhoi has a laser rangefinder
It's not our fault the russians went broke, that's your fault.
>and you can't tell the distance from someone else illuminating you.
No but the LWR can tell you're being lazed which is interesting information and LWRs are dirt cheap to produce so no reason not to have one you absolute mongoloid.
>>Erm these companies made Link 16
So what nobody was talking about Link 16. Link 16 is trivial. I was talking about advanced EW systems which only the EF has.
>You also still fail to address that Germany didn't even bother putting PIRATE on their EF
Again it's not our fault if the only credible enemy threat decides to commit suicide.
>despite you claiming that it's flat out superior to even AESA radar.
PIRATE is one puzzle piece, it's weather dependent tho. The wing root/stab antennas are more interesting.
>You fail to address that CAPTOR-E has been in development for literal decades
Nobody is funding it since nobody wants it. Lack of enemy. Imagine being so superior that nobody even wants to fight you lol.
>I would love if you shared your math on this.
Yeah ok i attached a picture of my math.
>Go find out why 16's always carry a wingtip pylon, if that doesn't help maybe google "wing tip vortex".
Because the performance hit is negligable.
>It's a 50G at best HOB, IRIS-T is a 100G+ HOB, quit coping.
You are comparing single plane vs combined plane lateral forces. Also the AIM-9X is commonly stated at 60g.
>The new motor will turn it into an even worse missile.
This is even bigger cope. "The better motor is worse because I said so. The engineers made the missile worse on purpose."
>It's not our fault the russians went broke, that's your fault.
There is no evidence of any plane making widespread use of laser rangefinders in their IRST systems. This isn't a funding issue. This is a in doesn't exist issue.
>No but the LWR can tell you're being lazed which is interesting information and LWRs are dirt cheap to produce so no reason not to have one you absolute mongoloid.
Your entire point was that LWR would tell you the distance to the target which it can't. Now you are deflecting and strawmanning
>So what nobody was talking about Link 16. Link 16 is trivial. I was talking about advanced EW systems which only the EF has.
You did.
>American system designed and manufactured by european electronics contractors?
The EF systems are all built around Link 16 infrastructure and any Euro system is designed to work on it's network.
>Again it's not our fault if the only credible enemy threat decides to commit suicide.
This has nothing to do with it being an uber system better than radar. If it was so much better wouldn't they adopt it instead of the radar?
>PIRATE is one puzzle piece, it's weather dependent tho. The wing root/stab antennas are more interesting.
The wingroot sensors are just optical MWS and have no targeting functionality. Even if they could they are smaller and weaker than PIRATE.
>Nobody is funding it since nobody wants it.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2022-07-13/typhoons-electronic-attack-radar-course-flight-2023
Am I the only one to think of a catfish when I see the frontside of the EF?
Yeah, but the EF's canard strikes me as the fish's mustache.
Thanks for the info. Realistically, do you think the saudis will end up buying some Rafale? I've read they are also experts on pulling out of their promises to buy.
>Puma
Do they have ATGMs now or is that still a pending feature?
Thqt's cute and all, but in reality Euroturd needs EW containers and escort to do the same job Rafale can with only its integrated systems and its own weapons
Daily reminder that the Puma came with black and white screens.
>CV90 is hand-loaded with what, 8 round mags and has 50 year old suspension technology.
The 9040 has a 24 round mag that does indeed reload with 8 round clips. The 9030 and 9035 on the other hand use belts like normal IFVs.
Why does USA have more aircraft carriers (eleven) than the whole of Europe?
$$$$
>Eurofighter is only marginally better than the F-15/F-16
The only way it's better is the meteor missile. The F-15 is a faster missile truck and the F-16 would wreck it in a dogfight.
>Why does Europe suck at building fighter jets?
Only by comparison to the US. GCAP is the only realistic 6th generation fighter outside of burgerland.
Dassault rafale is a phenomenal aircraft.as is the Gripen. They're built with a specific mission in mind and fulfill the respective roles well.
>Germany (arguably) the best tank
>can build three new ones in a decade. If they really, really try hard
if you cant replace combat losses those are just new tiger wunderwaffles. Good for what it was in class, bad for sustainability
Rheinmetall claims to be able to produce 400 Panthers per year. Even if the real number would be half, that's still 10-20 times more Panthers per year than T-14s produced - ever.
Rheinmetall CEO is a bigmouth of trumpian proportions. And Rheinmetall hasn't produced a single fully new panther.
KMW (the company that actually produces leopard tanks) is currently producing 50 tanks per year and upgrading another 60-70.
https://www.merkur.de/wirtschaft/panzerbauer-kmw-haelt-ausweitung-der-produktion-fuer-machbar-zr-92092909.html
The CEO considers it possible to go back to 300 tanks per year like in cold war times, but that's not being planned and would take 2-3 years.
https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/ruestungsproduktion-panzerbauer-produktion-hochfahren-101.html
stealth fighter program supposed to be completed by 2035
French program was pushed into the late 2040s. This was announced over a year ago keep up.
They just can't get along on the objective.
Some countries want something that can be used in aircraft carriers, others want air superiority, other want multirole, other want low cost and higher numbers some want top of the line tech.
Individually they lack the budget and the smaller the number of aircraft the higher the price.
Ultimately the results end up being compromises that aren't very capable against a near peer enemy.
Also everyone wants the plane made in their country because politicians love jobs. So everyone pulls in different directions till the projects either stall or someone goes solo or they end up with some pretty unremarkable compromise of a plane.
If there was a central military procurement authority the EU would make great planes but the EU has no such a thing and the USA hates the idea as the US wants to sell it's planes to the EU.
> They just can’t get along on the objective
This. Its why France alone produced the rafale that is roughly equal than the rest or western europe combined with the ef. Purpose and earnest commitment towards an objective is more meaningful than capital investments alone. Its also why nobody is holding their breath for gcap or fcas…US ad sector quietly and sometimes openly consider them a joke with less credibility than chinese or russian projects, partiailly due to the adversarial relationship but also due to the certain incompetencies in program management capabilities of the gcap and fcas claimed partipants
The French Jets in the 70s were pretty good
>French stealth fighter program supposed to be completed by 2035
It is extremely doubtful at this point, I'd be surprised if it doesn't get shelved in favor of further upgrades for rafale.
“[The target of] 2040 is already missed, because we already stall, and the discussions of the next phase will surely also be long,” the CEO said. “So we rather aim for the 2050s”
>UK/Italy/Japan program only started last year
That is actually on course for a 2035 entry window. Which isn't bad, the US is aiming for a 2035 entry date for NGAD too.
European programs are fine if you can get everyone on the same page. It's why GCAP shouldn't take on further members, to jeopardise a harmonious relationship like they have now would be foolish.
Because Lockheed Martin , Northrop Grumman and Boeing each have more rnd and production capacity than all of europes military aviation sectors combined
Smaller countries with smaller populations, smaller budgets and smaller MICs. They also don't have as much of a global military hegemony that puts them into direct competition with Russia and China so there is less of a pressure to stay ahead of the competition. Aside from Russia in more recent years there also isn't a major threat nearby to keep them on their toes. Finally going back to smaller MICs, they usually have one company per country at most capable of actually designing a fighter jet, if they have one at all, so whenever a European country wants a new fighter, you have foreign European companies and American companies all competing for the sell, leading to even less reason to build your own fighters when you can just buy them. Usually from America. Hell, making your own fighters basically limits you to whatever your local company produces to support your local industry, instead of going with what is the best available option.
Sorry bro, but we are busy using that money to get Blacks and muslims in our countries.
There is literally nothing wrong with the Eurofighter.
It's barely better than legacy hornets according to the Swiss. Likely significantly worse than Super Bugs.
>Thanks for the info. Realistically, do you think the saudis will end up buying some Rafale? I've read they are also experts on pulling out of their promises to buy.
Maybe they will, but they definitely wont be getting EFs. The Germans are incredibly butthurt and humiliated having to crawl back to France after so confidently stating their desire to join GCAP. SA is either getting Rafales or nothing the way I see it.
As for where to learn more, the best way would be to find a more permanent defense forum and just reading from there. Usually they share some actual primary sources while books tend to be secondary and contradictory depending on which publisher they come from. Internet forums are free.
>air to ground strike not achieved
I see this image is like a decade or more old and has not accounted for the many, many upgrades since.
>a single 1000 litre tank and no pod to guide the bombs since it would take the spot of that single tank.
This is the pride of the bongoloid.
topkek
Dassault was lead on Neuron anon. The problem is europeans will never ever accept to listen to and follow the frogs even after the frogs are proven right and competent at making them work together, and Neuron is the perfect example of this. Most successful european cooperation venture in development and integration of stealth tech and UCAV tech, led by France with 6 countries, no delays, no costs overruns and top notch performance. At the same time France did a coop with the UK on FCAS-DP between 2010 and 2017, which was the child of french Neuron tech and british UCAV Taranis tech, but the bongs left in 2017 to do their Tempest because their requirements changed from a UCAV to a manned fighter so the french accepted a german proposal instead. This is why for some time both of the joint programs, the UK led one and the french led one, were called "FCAS".
Read what sir Bernard Gray had to say about this. He was chief of defense materiel in 2010 when the FCAS-DP deal was concluded:
>https://x.com/BernardGray4/status/1540807546029719552?s=20
Pic related
>When talking Europe, everybody thinks 'Western Europe', except east euros or people engaged in mental gymnastics.
Omfg will you stop? Who was the Typhoon sold to in 'Western Europe'? Austria? Do you know the sorry state of the austrian fleet?
>Who was the Typhoon sold to in 'Western Europe'?
Austria, Germany, Italy, UK, Spain
Only Austria isn't building the damn thing. And they bought less than 20 in total.
austria was supposed to build parts of the typhoon, but eads withdrew after the government changed and wanted to cancel the deal. but the contract was already signed by the last government so they couldnt really do anything. they then negotitated with eads to only buy 15 jets of the first batch of the typhoon which germany had retired and they also stripped out half the systems so the government could sell it to the people as "we made the deal cheaper".
>so the government could sell it to the people as "we made the deal cheaper"
It was actually for the higher price than the original deal
So according to you France exported its own Rafale to itself? That's not how export works.
There's a difference between making something for yourself and selling it to a third party that has little to do with the progam or nothing at all. The Eurofighter is not the F-35. Even Italy with its Final Assembly Line for the F-35 cannot claim their F-35 as majority italian anyway since it would make no difference if they stopped being part of this mainly american program. The americans would just replace them as a supplier.
Here are the Eurofighter export sales:
15 to Austria assembled on the German Final Assembly line
72 to Saudi Arabia assembled on the british Final Assembly line
12 to Oman assembled on the british Final Assembly line
28 to Koweit assembled on the Italian Final Assembly line
24 to Qatar assembled on the british Final Assembly line
That's 151. With 48 additional jets on hold for Saudi Arabia since Germany refuses to sell to them due to the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi and the Yemen war.
Here are the Rafale export sales:
55 to Egypt
36 to Qatar
36 to India, with 26 more soon once the Indian Navy deal is inked
80 to the United Arab Emirates
24 including 12 formerly french to Greece compensated with new ones in France
12 formerly french to Croatia compensated with new ones in France
24 to Indonesia with an additional order of 18 to be fully inked soon to reach the planned numbers of 42 aircrafts
All assembled in France as of now.
That's 267, using up to date and conservative numbers. Soon, once the last 18 Indonesian ones and the new 26 Indian ones are signed, this number will reach 311.
France itself is committed for 210 Rafale at this point.
Poor Trappier, imagine having to deal with Macron, Le Maire and Pistorius when you just want to build sexy planes.
Trappier has been blessed with the spirit of Marcel Dassault, anon. He is protected by the four leaf clover talisman. He will prevail and defeat the enemies of sexy Dassault planefus, but that will take two seasons, 52 episodes, 2 OAVs, a video game adaptation on the Nintendo Switch, and a beach episode full of fan service starring Catia-chan in her swimsuit.
>G-Gambatte kudasai, Turapuye-sensei.
>Who was the Typhoon sold to in 'Western Europe'? Austria? Do you know the sorry state of the austrian fleet?
thats entirely a political story though, in the whole purchase story the plane never mattered and still doesnt matter. its all political.
>permanent defense forum and just reading from there
Thanks. Any you'd recommend? (or publicly recommend on PrepHole).
I've tried reading Air & Cosmos a couple times, but it's usually too technical for me.
spacebattles forum is pretty decent. I wont give out the main one I use because it's nice the way it currently is, but I still occasionally browse spacebattles. I will say avoid sturgeonhouse. It mainly focuses on tanks, but the site owner is a massive fag and can powertrip a lot. The WT forum is shit for any real discussion because you have a bunch of retards arguing about how their favorite plane should work in a video game, but it can be good for finding obscure documents. Twitter is also decent for finding info and news, but its a slow thing where you have to build a circle of good sources and pages that don't overlap too much and cover a decent amount of topics.
> getting rafales or nothing
> its over eurosisters
SA is buying the kf21, they just signed $16 billion in energy deals with SK a few weeks ago with both heads of state leading discussions and stating they will expand to broad defense reform of SA with SK weapons
Go away asiatic
I think actual airframes are overrated in the age of BVR. Stick a top-tier sensors package (CAPTOR- and PIRATE IRST) and pair it with the best missile in the world (Meteor) and you have the best BVR platform in the world. Or even better, have a dedicated AWACS aircraft do the sensing for you (admittedly US types but Airbus is developing something). And the fighters themselves are fairly long legged and can carry a lot of stuff.
europe had one job
neuron
they could have a fucking fleet of them by now literal thousands laying around and what they did?
>oh no its a test bed
fuck off
Funny to say this after a mighty US jet just joined Mr. Krabs without enemy contact.
>Why does Europe suck at (insert military thing here)
Ennui
Watching euros argue comparing their fighter “programs” is like a bunch of midgets bragging about who is taller
They thought that Russia is our friend and war is only slaughtering brown folks and stopped investing the money necessary for proper military procurement.
mighty Russia couldn't even conquer Ukraine.
how was Europe wrong here?
Man this weeb ITT is so fucking cringe. Nobody cares about your dying out boomer nation, it’s not the 90s anymore.
Europe isn't competing against America so they don't have to match or surpass it, they just have to be better than everyone else which they are. Apart from GCAP and FCAS what real 6th generation programs are even out there?
Gcap and Fcas are not true 6th gen programs, it will take them until late 2030s/early 2040s to get to a proper 5th fighter and from there can continue in earnest towards a 6th gen, so maybe 2050s/2060s if they stay committed but more than likely they simply purchase whatever the US sells them
List what makes a 6th gen
>it will take them until late 2030s/early 2040s to get to a proper 5th fighter and from there can continue in earnest towards a 6th gen, so maybe 2050s/2060s
Do you have anything to back this up? Thought not.
>more than likely they simply purchase whatever the US sells them
They're developing 6th gens specifically because the US isn't selling them you shit eating retard.
> Not a single european nation has produced a 4.75gen fighter
> Japan has never produced an operational modern fighter ever other than the licensed F16
How are they going to develop and produce a fighter that is even a 2006 vintange F35? If gcap and fcas are as committed to developing a fighter equal to the US effort they will achieve 5th gen in about 20 years or so, about how long it took the US to get from 4th to 5th, but we all know their effort will be half assed at best so its confirmed to be a nothing burger as per usual with anything that the uk, italy or especially japan pursues in the modern weapons arena
>UK got tech transfers on the F35
>Japan and Italy both complete production
>UK and Japan have world class engine tech
>Japan has domestic RAM
Etc etc etc. They have all of the necessary technologies to produce a functional 6th gen aircraft, it's just about the money and will to do so, which they have.
Lol uk literally sperged out because the us would not transfer tech, japan and italy do assembly like the mexicans assemble bmws in mexico without any idea on the ip or r&d on the actual product japan and italy are simply mexico as far as the f35 is concerned you fucking retard, two nukes was not enough when will thirdies learn
Also the facos in both japan and italy have all US management, the locals are like the locals in US military bases in japan and italy just doing the thirdie stuff
What the fuck are you talking about? The Japanese FACO is run by MHI, it was set up with assistance from lockheed, but has been pretty much domestically run since like 2018-19.
Further japan earlier this year opened up a fully domestic run regional F135 engine repair/maintenance facility run by IHI.
When South Korean F-35s need major repair/upgrade do you know where they'll be going? To MHI and IHI in japan.
>Lol uk literally sperged out because the us would not transfer tech
The DPA got the transfer all the way back in 2006. UK F35 procurement literally hinged on the decision which is why the senate was so swift to allow it. You're coping.
Given you very specifically said 4.75 gen I'm going to assume you're asiaticshill, which would explain your insensate rage at GCAP.
heard the asiatics are absolutely buttmad and unwilling at that, thus leading to a sub-par readyness level of their fleet, because they don't want to ask the japs
Their only option besides japan is to ferry flight them to Europe or back to the US. And if they need work so bad that they can't be flown you'd probably need to load it up on a ship but that would take weeks to get anywhere besides japan.
Australia plans to do some of their own F-35 maintenance stuff, so maybe that's an option.
South korea has 65 confirmed F35As the most in the world other than the US, japs have less than half that number with a few F35Cs (thr nerfed ac version)…South Korea is expected to do the fighting and japs are expected to be combat support not combat arms…this is why when the ONLY F35 casualty ever was a jap pilot who literally blacked out on a training flight with the jet suspected to be salvaged by the chinese and russians (chinese jets coincidentally had some f35 features a few years after this incident) the US just simply shook their heads knowing japs are not combat material
This is also why all combat troops especially spec ops in anglosphere train in south korea, not japan, just like the british sas, navy seals were a few weeks ago to get near live action training
>South korea has 65 confirmed F35As the most in the world
40 delivered, 25 more ordered. If you want to look at total order numbers of F35s a bunch of countries have ordered more than SK, including the UK, Japan, Canada, Australia and Israel.
you know the F-35C is the CATOBAR version, right?
at least get your script right asiaticshill
There is literally 0 evidence that the Chinese or Russians acquired the F-35 lmao
>South korea has 65 confirmed F35As the most in the world other than the US
South Korea has 40, with 25 more ordered. And if you want to go by how many are ordered, Japan has 147 total F-35s ordered or delivered.
105 F-35A and 42 F-35B
> South Korea 40 operational, 25 fast tracked approved by Congress for a total of 65 confirmed
> Japan 27 operational (mix of As and Cs), the remaining 120 units ordered but yet to be approved by Congress to be delivered beginning in 2028 and completed by the early 2040s
Lmfao
What? The Japanese order got approved before the latest South Korean order.
https://www.defensenews.com/smr/2020/07/09/us-gives-the-green-light-to-japans-massive-23b-f-35-buy/
A and B asiaticshill
You were already corrected once yet you keep going.
>at least 5 countries including Japan have more F-35s on order than SK
Kind of embarrassing not gonna lie. I thought you said they were a serious military power?
>6th gen program
It's not even 5th gen lmao.
South Korea has more F35As in the skies than any other country other than the US, both the US and LM want ROK to buy at least 100 more units but ROK is diversifying with 120 units of the KF21, if ROK decides to buy more F35s they jump to the front of the line, meanwhile all of the other countries that have "ordered" F35s will get them over the 5 to 15+ years when the F35 will likely be comparable to what an F16 is today on a relative basis
>both the US and LM want ROK to buy at least 100 more units
SK only plans to acquire 65. There's a host of countries purchasing more F35s than that. I'm not sure why you think that's significant.
>120 units of the KF21
There are plans to reduce this, but even so the KF21 isn't a 5th gen aircraft. It's 4.5
South Korea has the 65 F35s while they are still the best in the world, the other countries especially japan will get the F35s when they are no better than what an F16 is today, what part of this dont you get?
There are no plans to reduce the 120 units, that fake news report a few weeks ago was a recommendation from a pro-NK unification homosexuals which is completely diametrically opposite to the current administration which is hyper-hawkish and will probably increase the 120 to 240 units
Remember to cope, seethe, dilate
>South Korea has the 65 F35s
It has 40 and has ordered another 25. Many countries have ordered more. I don't get why you think this is significant.
>will probably increase the 120 to 240 units
I assume you'll be providing a source for that. But really that's incredible, 240 4th gen fighters? Though it's a bit odd to acquire them now given that 6th gen is only a decade away. Really SK should have focused on that instead of building a fighter that's obsolete on arrival.
You clearly lack understanding of critical weapons procurement, an order is not considered a done deal until approved by Congress, South Korea has the additional 25 F35As approved by Congress in a fast tracked fashion, none of the additional F35s "ordered" by Japan have been approved by Congress yet, there are some ordered by a few western Euro and Australia that are approved
The fact is that South Korea easily has the second best air force today + in the foreseeable future, no country is even close:
more F35s all F35As the real ones, than any non-US country
more F16s all the latest version than any non-US country
among the largest F15 inventory all the latest version in the world, not old borderline obsolete versions like say your tranny homeland nip
more FA50s than any other country
120 to 240 KF21s, the best fighter in the world not called an F35 or F22, and nothing is even close, the power gap between an F35 and KF21 is minimal whereas the power gap between a KF21 and a eurofighter/rafale is significant
Sucks to be a nisei where the real japs hate you more than they hate naggers aint that correct nipshill tranny weeb? Lmfao
Sorry asiaticshill but ordering 65 F35s just isn't impressive, plenty of countries have ordered more. You sound mad because SK doesn't have the budget to purchase as many as countries like Japan, the UK, Australia, Israel etc have.
>KF21s, the best fighter in the world not called an F35
Laughably deluded, but even in this fictional world you've dreamt up everyone is still buying F35s instead lmao. Very embarrassing for SK.
What's worse for SK is soon 6th gen aircraft will be entering service, rendering the KF21 even more obsolete. I think if you're on best behavior from now on Japan might allow you to purchase some though, so keep that in mind unless you want to be left behind again.
Nipshill, you are clearly braindead if you still don't understand the distinction between operational, approved and ordered
Nipshill weeb tranny, japan has ordered 147 F35s they have 27 approved, no more approved, the others are ordered, they will get the remaining 120 beginning a few years from now and and completed by the early 2040s lmfao, by that time the F35 will be a third tier fighter, essentially like what most of the jap air force is today - this is intentional, japs are castrated remember the nukes? US doctrine has South Korea being the real combat arms nation, japs are simply combat support like bitches and forced to let the US use whatever real estate and whorehouses for their troops is needed irregardless of the weekly protest by the nips that number into the tens of thousands of japs protesting US colonization every fucking week lol
>the others are ordered
So you're telling me Japan, among others, have all ordered more F35s than South Korea? That's actually very embarrassing, I used to hold SK in high regard but I don't anymore upon finding this out.
>by the early 2040s
GCAP will already be in service by then. It's funny how SK isn't even targeting 6th gen capabilities, they must know it's beyond their ability to produce.
By 2040, South Korea will end up with 65 to 100 F35As, 120 to 240 KF21s, and 120+ NGADs
By 2040, Japan will end up 147 F35As and F35Cs
Lmfao
By 2030, South Korea 65 to 100 F35As, 120 KF21s, 60 F15EXs, 170 F16Vs
By 2030, Japan 30 F35As/Cs, 200 F15Js (lol), 80 F2s (lmfao)
>120+ NGADs
It's not for export. This has been known for a long time unfortunately.
>120 to 240 KF21s
This number is actually expected to be reduced from 120 to an lower figure.
So you're telling me Japan is going to operate more F35s than SK as well as fielding actual 6th gen aircraft? Wow. It's actually incredible how much better the Japanese air force will be equipped compared to the SK one.
> Ngad not for export except to South Korea
LM and KAI will collab on a slightly modified version for South Korea only, KAI is already ramping production facilities to build 240 units by 2032 due to at least 11 other nations that will buy the KF21, Indonesia is likely out as a partner, will be replaced by Poland and/or UAE and potentially Airbus (Airbus wants in but unclear if KAI will agree)
>LM and KAI will collab on a slightly modified version for South Korea only
Provide a source or be dismissed entirely.
>240 units
You still haven't provided a source while all rumors point towards the original figure (120) being reduced even further.
>at least 11 other nations that will buy the KF21
Provide a source or be dismissed entirely.
Name a single fighter that is better than the KF21 other than the F35 or F22 from a credible source, there are some sources that even claim the KF21 is superior to the F35 in air superiority, nothing is even close
F35/F22
KF21
power gap
EF/Rafale
F16
F15
F18
power gap
Gripen
FA50
Tejas
>240
Source? Last I heard they were planning to reduce the order from 120 to an even lower figure because it just isn't competitive enough to be worth producing
>South Korea has more F35As in the skies than any other country other than the US
wrong, Australia has you beat they had 60 in march this year and expected another delivery of 12 before the end of 2023 bringing them up to 72.
That's beyond even what SK will have with their new order 25 more.
You fucking homosexuals still don't get it, the US is the dominant power on all aspects equally backed by the dollar and our military, our vassal states will only be permitted to have weapons that are at best 1gen behind, more than likely more since they can't properly perform maintenance or services without direct US involvement as we can cut them off at any time
You never fail to seethe at GCAP asiaticshill lmao
Nipshill weeb tranny like clockwork still seething that the KF21 is the only non-US credible 6th gen program
lol
> japs keep getting killed doing nothing, chinks laughing their asses off
Lmfao
It's a shame BAE and Dassault had to split up.
This FCAS team made the most sense.
The island nation wants big expensive ultra high power output for sensors/computing potential DEWs paired with MUM-T drone wingmen to do the dirty work.
The mainland nation wants a catapult launchable manned fighter with decent onboard power and sensors, but offloading some of the higher capabilities to drones or taking longer in development to wait for technologies to mature enough to fit in a carrier launchable airframe.
It's clear why Japan, the UK, and Italy would be more suited to share in a project as both the UK and Japan are island nations and Italy is pretty secure on the north and is exposed on all other fronts with the Mediterranean so a long-distance sea patrolling fighter makes sense to them to a certain extent as well.
oh you dont know half of the shit that went down lmao
https://twitter.com/BernardGray4/status/1540807546029719552?s=20
uk is basicly wasting money without any sort of reason
Gripen got irreversibly gimped by having a too small engine.
ITT: deluded people pretending the euro 6th gen programs aren’t vaporware meant to keep a cash life support hooked up to the rotting corpse that is the brit and German MIC
Just you wait for our Fokker hydrogen planes they will replace the F35's we got.
jets, more exactly jet avionics, speed and acceleration are not important anymore, you don't do dogfight using machine guns on wings. The radars and rockets you can carry on them are the goat.
Kek, even the Turks are making progress with their fighter jet program. Europeans can't and don't want to fight.
> Only F35 pilot ever killed as expected is a nip and was not even in combat or a hostile situation simply a training flight the little pygmy simply blacked out from routine g's
Lmfao
The worst part is not the jap pilot getting killed, its that the f35 was never fully salvaged by US forces and suspected to have been salvaged, at least partially, by chinese and russian naval units
> Screenshot 2023-11-14 at 10.38.55 AM.png
falling back to old habits eh asiatic?
> only nation to be nuked and by the US no less
> only nation with an F35 pilot killed and during a routine training flight lmfao
Lol, I love this picture brings good feels
Everytime anywhere anybody meets a jap in real life inside their heads they are thinking nukes, must be so shamefur to be a jap the biggest losers ever and sadly for japs the bitches of the current geopolitical world order given the nukes castrated them, and to pour salt on the wounds the winners of ww2 gave Russia and China both a seat on the permanent security council with the US, UK and France, the five countries that run the world and won't change for the foreseeable future
In contrast the South Korean F35 pilots are best-in-class, when an F35 malfunctioned mid-flight, control tower told the pilot to eject...the South Korean pilot instead did a belly landing with no engines or controls barely damaging the F35 and walking away without a scratch a la Tom Cruise esqe...
Nips actually make the russians and chinese look competent
because Europe isn't one country, co-ordinating multiple countries is a clusterfuck (It worked for Airbus passenger jets but their main customer isn't the governments of the countries that make it up), each individual country isn't really economically powerful enough to make it work. You can't have (say) Britain make their own stealth fighter at the same pace as America because Britain isn't wealthy enough* and you can't have Europe do it because Britain, France, Germany, Spain, and 15 smaller countries will get into a fight over who gets to build which components, and the exact specifications of the plane they're actually trying to build. Undoubtedly a few of the smaller countries will pull out and just buy an American plane off the shelf, and if one big country has sufficiently different specifications they might run off as well. Finally, there's a harder to quantify element of worker-experience in actually building the planes. America can basically maintain a constant production line of military hardware, while European countries have to keep reinventing the wheel because there's a gap between one model ending production and the next model beginning it.
*Nominally it is, but only if you adopt the unrealistic assumption that the public will tolerate spending a lot of money on building a special snowflake plane that will almost certainly only be used at the behest of an ally who could sell a more capable model at half the price.
bullshit.
US cannot sustain a stealth fighter program by itself either. See F-22.
Congress had to walk back their export-ban of any stealth fighter.
>US cannot sustain a stealth fighter program by itself
Yes it can. It has multiple times.
>See F-22
You mean the plane that still isn't exported lol?
>Congress had to walk back their export-ban of any stealth fighter.
More like "hey we've had these for 40+ years and know how to deal with them now, you guys can sell them finally".
JSF was always going to be exported, that was literally the intent behind the program.
F-22 was never exported, and still to this day hasn't been exported. (though it was offered to the Japanese around 2018).
The F-22 was built in reasonable-ish numbers and when the program ended there was the F-35 plus various other conventional aircraft programs to keep things afloat.
Because the US pays to sponsor joint training events that focus on memes like dogfighting and then laughs all the way to the bank when Euros, Slavs, and Chinks fall for the bait and build jets that are good at things that don't actually matter. Then everybody buys the F35 after it wipes the floor with everybody else's jets in the real world.
By 2050, South Korea 100 F35As (5th gen), 240 KF21s block 3 (5th gen), 240 NGADs (6th gen)
By 2050, Japan 147 F35As/Cs (5th gen), 30 GCAPs (5th gen)
Lmfao
>100 F35s
Only 65 have been ordered
>240 KF21s (5th gen)
120 planned, expected to be reduced. Only 4.5 gen.
>240 NGADs
0, since it will not be exported.
Very embarrassing state of the korean air force.
The funniest part is that South Korea only ordered the additional 25 F35As earlier this year and jumped the line in front of every country to get them approved by congress, meanwhile japan has to wait until almost 2030 to get their next few units lmfao, America likes winners and the jap f35 pilot getting killed during takeoff on a training flight as the only f35 pilot ever killed reinforced the notion that japs are losers and its not only because we nuked them for the fun of it lol
asiaticshills are the vatniks of SE Asia.
oh look, now he switched to the American personality