Why do so many people call this the first assault rifle lately? Is it russian propaganda?
It used a full power cartridge, not an intermediate one.
If this was an assault rifle then the BAR was too.
Why do so many people call this the first assault rifle lately? Is it russian propaganda?
6.5 jap is hardly full power
Looks modern tho.
rekt
Copers think because it was on the low end for full power cartridges that it was an intermediate one not realizing that it still had nearly 2x the muzzle energy of 5.56
6.5 Arisaka is 140gr @ ~2500 m/s from a 31" barrel.
Which is in line with 6.5 Grendel handloads and only slightly heavier in the projectile than basic boxes from Midway.
The ammo was designed for this rifle.
Perhaps it was less powerful compared to other rifles of the time but do you really want to tell me that this thing used an intermediate cartridge?
Yes. Because Japanese people.
Japanese also used a downloaded 7.62x51mm because they couldn’t shoot full power
>downloaded 7.62x51mm
Tell me anon, where I can download too.
>7.62x51mm
Are you talking about .308 or another round with the same case dimensions?
Post WW2 they adopted a 7.62x51mm cartridges that was downloaded ~20% compared to 7.62 NATO for use in their battle rifles and LMGs
Okay okay, I thought you were referring to the same time period as this Federov shit (pre-ww2), which is why I was confused with you bringing up 7.62NATO
heres your first assault rifle bro
It's because the way it was intended to be used was how assault rifles were meant to be used. The biggest thing is it's debatable that 6.5 Jap counts as a full power cartridge or weak enough to be considered intermediate despite intention.
it was intended to be used like lmg by tsar army, just like lewis or madsen
>LMG role
>No bipod
You sure about this?
Not him but the BAR didn't have a bipod either during WW1, did it?
Does this mean the BAR was an assault rifle?
It waa literally meant to be used in assualts, but it had a full power chambering.
Which is my point.
>If it had an intermediate cartridge
Right and the Fedorov didn't have an intermediate cartridge either.
>Also the original didnt have a bipod but they very soon after gave it one, show me a Federov with a bipod.
The BAR was produced a million times, on the other hand there were only like 100 Fedorovs made so this is an unfair comparison to say the least.
Yeah you're right, it is unfair but I can't think of a single LMG that didnt have a bipod on it or eventually have one but the Federov is so niche it probable wouldve had one eventually, it just didnt happen.
With the intermediate cartridge shit that is what makes or breaks this shit, the 6.5 Jap was a "full power" cartridge to the Japanese but it's all relative. One caliber could be full power in someones eyes and it could be considered intermediate to another, if you want to see it as the intended use of the cartridge as it was designed then no the Federov was just an Automatic Rifle in an LMG role very similar to the BAR. But if you want to look at it relatively then 6.5 Jap was a smaller 139g bullet going 2,500FPS is very comparable to a modern "intermediate" cartridge in terms of ballistics and power.
If it had an intermediate cartridge and was kept in the same role then yes, I'd consider it an early form of assault rifle. Also the original didnt have a bipod but they very soon after gave it one, show me a Federov with a bipod.
BAR is a battle rifle they shoehorned into a SAW role before that was really a thing.
Fun fact: the Air Corps wanted to issue every pilot a BAR as a personal defense weapon but gave up after WW1 ended
I have a hard time thinking of a worse gun to try and bail with.
it had bipod, later commie fedorov-degtyarov variant had bipod too
early on it was called "ruzhyo-pulemyot" which is roughly lmg
fedorov was planned to cover shortage of madsen and lewis lmgs
it was used as team weapon with gunner+assistant during ww1, at least on paper
The elusive "hand-held machinegun" the RPK has it's name from that designation and the RPK is definitely an LMG. So now we know it was in a designated LMG role but at the same time, there was no kind of idea of an "assault rifle" then so what other role could it have possibly been in? Is an LMG really just an assault rifle with a bipod and a full powered cartridge?
Many LMG-s chamber intermediate caliber (5.56 mostly).
And there is Colt Automatic Rifle, which is just M16 with heavy barrel and bipod.
i consider 6.5mm jap and carcano to be full power because they're still long range cartridges with high muzzle energy. they're simply just more efficient .30 caliber stuff and there'll be little difference on the battlefield for rifles and machineguns.
7.92x33mm is where intermediate hovers.
and yes, modern 5.56mm with long boat-tail projos can be considered long range, but that's because they were forced into that role; striking energy is still shit.
Because it was developed before the advent of "intermediate cartridges", and the 6.5 Arisaka was about as close as they thought they were going to get.
What they should have done is made the thing in 6.5X55 Swedish, then it would have not been fuckign about with a semi-flanged cartridge case, attempting to feed hard to source ammo of indifferent or low quality manufacture.
>What they should have done is made the thing in 6.5X55 Swedish
Initially they devoloped magnum version of the 6.5x55....
Assault rifle is a bullshit term. The correct name is automatic rifle.
An automatic rifle could be a designation for a weapon in an LMG role as well i.e. the BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle). Assault rifle was coined from the STG and all that, you know the fucking deal. It's specifically meant to categorize a style of rifle based on caliber, function and role.
"Assault rifle" as a term denotes both doctrine and design.
Design wise the elements are pretty straightforward:
>intermediate cartridge
>select fire
>detachable box magazine
Doctrine wise it is a bit less clear but I would argue:
>standard issue as the default weapon equipping most front-line infantry soldiers
The first unambiguous assault rifle was the StG 44. The Fedorov is interesting because it arguably fits most of the design elements, but as a matter of doctrine it never actually met the criteria.
Nobody remembers the AS-44.
The "Assault Rifle" didn't exist until the Sturmgewehr did. That is simply how the way we define things work. Not only does everything else lack either the theory or technical definitions of the Sturmgewehr, they lack the manual of arms, doctrine, and experience that the Germans employed it with and developed for it. And while you can use interchangeable terms of the same era for the same thing, such as sub machine-gun, machine-pistol and machine-carbine, for instance, trying to apply modern terms to weapons that precede the terms themselves is retarded. Modern terms apply to modern weapons which have become pretty standardised in their role and technical definitions, but weapons from earlier times are very different because many of them come from times of rapid development where everything was all over the place, and so going through the effort to try and homogenise our definitions for such a complicated and annoying period is silly.
Sudayev's work downsizing the AS from a support weapon in the earlier 7,62x41mm with a bipod, heavy barrel and full length stock to a 7,62x39mm separate fore and buttstock with a lighter barrel and no bipod over the three models I've seen photos of seems to have influenced everyone taking part in the competition. Had he not died, Sudayev may have well given Kalashnikov a run for his money.
AS-44 was basically six(?) prototypes. One had a bipod, one had a bayonet lug and a few others I can't remember.
Well said. I always think of early selective-fire guns as precursors of assault rifles than applying that term retroactively.
It used contemporary 6.5 grendel
Actual answer: Because everyone on the Internet wants a new take that gets attention, especially social media types. "You might THINK 123 was XYZ, but ACTUALLY..."
Consult the diagram, because the Fedorov isn't the first one to be claimed as such and it probably won't be the last either.
Dumb diagram, dumb meme. Dumb post.
Nuh uh
>etymology purist (just the facts)
>Sturmgewehr is the first assault rifle
The StG wasn't even the first German assault rifle. About a decade too late for the title.
>first German assault rifle
Being?
>decade too late for the title
Well, the title is just propagandistic. It's the first machine carbine (maschinen karabiner)
So this is the Pederson device
Look up Herr Vollmer and his rifle.
The Germans had also been working with the Swiss and Hungarians back in the 20s.
Very based
>So this is the Pederson device
Huh? It's the Cei-Rigotti, Italian automatic rifle designed in the 1890s. Select-fire, chambered for 6.5 Carcano (only slightly larger than 6.5 Arisaka), up to 30rd magazine, could be quickly reloaded to full capacity with a single charger clip (pic related).
Finally, the 30 round assault clip
Was gonna mention the Cei-Rigotti but you beat me to it.
Imagine a world where it actually achieved mass production. Sadly it was before its time and in a country that couldn't afford it
That's the joke
I unironically believe the M2 Carbine could qualify as an assault rifle and was used as such later in its service life.
>anything positive about russian history is propaganda now
I hate what you've done to this board
first assault rifle
Dunning Kruger answer: Fedorov
Contrarian answer: 1907
"fits the role" answer: m1 carbine
so retardedly obvious even your mom would agree answer I mean for fucks sake: STG
If the Fedorov can be considered an "assault rifle," than this can as well, and it was developed at least a decade earlier.
>b-but it doesn't have a quick detachable magazine!
It can still be rapidly reloaded through the top of the receiver using a large charger.
The Cei-Rigotti was the first assault rifle.
Some will deny this because they dislike Italians, or they think it actually has to be widely adopted.
Which it wasn't cause Italy can't dream for their own economic situation buy always dream bigger
Dunno if it counts because of the full-power cartridge but I'll give it to them anyway. I like Italians though, so I might be biased. Where else do you find a history of imperial glory, beautiful cathedrals and art, the foundation of the sciences, and the silliest wars?
Oh, and women in the south walking around nearly naked in summer like it's no big deal, that's also nice.
If that counts as the first assault rifle instead of an automatic rifle (not even the first) then Maxim made automatic versions of Winchesters, Martini-Henry's and his own original designs. So he did it first. If you don't want that, then the 1885 Mannlicher was the first assault rifle.
Actually, the M2 carbine is the first assault rifle
Not by US definition. An assault rifles must have an effective range of 300m/330 yards. The M2 Carbine did not have that (180m/200 yards)
Fedorov Avtomat isn't an assault rifle because it fires full-powered rifle cartridges. Pretty simple.
Fuck the US definition. I only follow Polish definitions.
This thread just goes to show how little /k/ knows about guns besides their shitty stock Glock and PSA AR.
/k/ went to shit years ago.
The federov predated the BAR.
Despite what people say, the Cönders is actually the first assault rifle and it isn't a SMG. 9mm is clearly an intermediate cartridge!
6.5 Jap
> 139gr projectile, 2500 fps
6.5 Grendel
> 130gr projectile, 2500 fps
In my opinion, if 6.5 Grendel is intermediate then so is 6.5 Arisaka, and the Federov is an assault rifle.
But there's no rigorous definition of an intermediate cartridge, it's more like 8mm kurz hit the scene and it was decided that cartridges like it were "intermediate".
Keep in mind the Jap requires a barrel twice as long to get that velocity.
It and the BAR could be reasonably argued as being the first proto-assault rifles. They weren't designed as such, but they have the capabilities and the form factor to be able to be used as such. The intermediate cartridge is not necessary for a gun to be an assault rifle, what's more important is select-fire capability, magazine fed, and compact size.
>Is it russian propaganda?
It is.
This is Russian meme tradition that Russians "were first and invented everything". So they do such statements.
Even more: 6.5mm cartridge that Fedorov designed (as a member of the committee) was 6.5x63mm magnum round sending 125 grain at 3100 fps. Pic related. Intermediate round my ass.
Arisaka chambering was the cope of Russian industry not able to produce new round.
>6.5x63mm
what the actual shit. Why did you have tell me this was a thing, now I want it. It shouldn't even be THAT hard to rebarrel a 30'06 for 6.5 and do it, right?
The bigger propaganda came from the soviets. Originally when fedorov designed the gun, drawing inspiration directly from the Lebel, he called his gun handheld rifle-machinegun, with one of his underlings suggesting the term "avtomat". This story would've ended then and there if it wasn't for the soviets who later started reusing the term for what we usually call assault rifles, claiming AK is one to create an image of continuity of development(just like all soviet gun designers were studying under him, hurr durr) and hide the fact that AK was anything but original
. Since then, russians have been using 'avtomat' as a word for a much more rarely used 'assault rifle'.
Fucking hell, not Lebel, the Chauchat LMG that was firing Lebel round.
>firing
Que?
Lebel was the rifle and the round for it. Chauchat was chambered in that round also.
It was my attempt at a joke at the Chauchat's expensive by asking 'What?' when you said firing... because.... jam....
The AR-15 was the first assault rifle. The Stg-44 is a machinepistol as is the AK.
>machine pistol
>7.92x33
>7.62x39
I want to know what kind of pistols you're shooting and where I can get them.
>Stg-44 is a machinepistol
No, it's a maschinen karabiner (Mkb42) that was renamed machinen pistole to develop in secret until Adolf changed his mind and permitted the weapon under the designation of sturm gewehr. The AK is just the Soviet response
Mooks and spergs invoke that chart unironically
>fedorov
Was crew served and clip-fed, awful candidate for "assault rifle"
>Was crew served and clip-fed
The russian cope for that was that it wasn't intended to be used like that so it doesn't count.
lol yeah
Well, you know the old saying anon. Though in this case I thought it was clear it was a joke making fun of these alternative theorists.
It was and always will be an automatic rifle. Doctrine defines a gun and not features, it's why when the worst Koreans say the K1 is a submachine gun I agree because they use it as a submachine gun. I'm not gonna argue semantics with the guys that developed and issued the things
>Is it russian propaganda
Unironically yes, Russians use meme "we were first" in their interpretation of history from the Stalin era.
Because in Battlefield 1 it played like an LMG and retards on the internet get all of their opinions from movies and video games.