Why do Russians keep insisting the Ukrainian military is just like theirs?

It's obvious to anyone the Ukrainians are NOT like the Russians.

They are far more skilled in the use of weapons.

  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Because before the 2014 revolution, the Ukrainian military was basically an off shoot of the russian military in terms if corruption and systems. It wasn't until 2014 that they had serious reforms in their military.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I think most of the training happened post 2016.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        No, it happened. The trump era was when they started giving the Ukrainians lethal aid like javelins and lethal weaponry.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >The trump era was when they started giving the Ukrainians lethal aid like javelins and lethal weaponry.

          Oh god, the 4chancel cope again. The Trump era was when the US govt (on orders of Trump) WITHHELD military aid from Ukraine because they didn't play ball in the deranged moron's investigation in his political rivals.

          No disrespect, but I just have to assume you're either completely jesterpilled on some Alex Jones shit or have literally been cut off from any news source for the last 5 years.
          Claiming Trump is responsible for Ukrainian military development is like saying 9/11 did wonders for US-middle eastern relations.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Drumpf was never in charge of anything. So while the orange pussy was saying NATO should be disbanded, patriotic operatives were still arming the Ukrainians anyway lmao

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              At any rate, now we know for sure Russians cannot be trusted. The sooner we get a strong Ukrainian buffer state, the better.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No. Forget about buffer states, Russia should be decisively defeated, disarmed, broken into several states and occupied by the USA and it's allies, much like Germany after WWII.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The fastest way to get Russia to break up is to encourage the secessionists inside its borders. Many seek independence.

                https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ethnic-minorities-independence-ukraine-war/32210542.html

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The Javelins that went to Ukraine during the Trump admin had so many conditions attached to them, they literally did nothing but sit in a storage bunker until 2022.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Damn dude they even brought slam pig girlscouts. That's awesome.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I don't really think it's about the training.
        Out of all the armed forces western training was provided only to a meager amount of people, and most of them were SOF or just some kind of elite units. Most people were conscripts that didn't see any special training. And absolute majority of people who fight after 24 didn't had for sure, many didn't had any training at all.

        My personal thought is that difference in core organizational principles. After 2014 many ukrainians found themselves as semi-volunteers near the life or death situation, when government has a clear mission for them, yet it can't neither adequately provide for you, nor control either. That created a sphere, where most problems were solved not with a dictate of old soviet rulebooks enforced by higher command, but by ingenuity and initiative of soldiers on the ground. Basically Ukraine managed to put adaptability into the core of their army, while for any adaptation is forced from outside.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >while for RUSSIA any adaptation*

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Out of all the armed forces western training was provided only to a meager amount of people, and most of them were SOF or just some kind of elite units.

          Dumbass. The US didn't need to train the ENTIRE army. You train the NCO and Officers, and some whole units then those guys go back to their home units and implement the training. This is how the Continental Army became an effective fighting force in the Revolution. Von Steuben took 100 NCOs from across the Army, trained them, then spread them across the organization.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >You train the NCO and Officers, and some whole units then those guys go back to their home units and implement the training.
            That's true but again, that's true only for some units. You could eventually implement it that way if we are talking about original 200k army, but when army suddenly bloats 5 times and in active war, you absolutely can't.
            Some units like AZOV do have good training, some elite brigades like 46, 47 or 93 probably also do at least partially. But most of TDF obviously doesn't.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              A huge portion of the TDF is made up of veterans from those same units who served in Donbas during 2016-2021

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Also the Ukrainians rotated units in Donbas throughout the whole Donbas conflict, letting everyone get practice.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Eh, not really. Maybe half at best. And, honestly, even "serving in donbass" isn't exactly a proof of quality. Heated action there was only first years, while most people seen only the low intensity trenches. And even so, most of them were still conscripts, and they recieved typical conscript training aka not good and not enough.
                I guess they were better than russian conscripts on average, but not by that much.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Read the accounts of soldiers who are actually fighting in the war. Most of them are inexperienced, poorly trained conscripts like their Russian counterparts and they’re still winning.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It shows in Ukrainian willingness to improvise new weapons on the fly.

          https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20221005-homemade-diy-weapons-boost-ukraine-war-arsenal

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >I don't really think it's about the training.
          Well yes and no, they aren't just trained on how to fight, they're trained how to pass those skills on to future recruits.
          That said, the will to not only fight, but to adapt to changes and come out on top isn't something you can really teach.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          This is probably the only correct answer in this thread. Giving more initiative to the lowest levels of a given organization always, time and time again, forces it to evolve in positive ways. This is why the Wehrmacht in particular was so formidable and it’s how the US Navy was able to modernize so effectively in a few short decades. The concept of lower level initiative is a core value of all western militaries and it’s the real reason they’re better than everyone else.
          Look up complex adaptive systems theory, anons. It probably sounds kooky but it’s a real thing that historians and people at the pentagon are looking into more and more.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Russian society is centralized, Ukrainian one decentralized because of their respective historical origins. Russians lived under the omnipotent rulers, upper classes were dependent on him providing livelihood in return for their service. There was no centres of power alternative to the state, which by itself was for long time until 1700s self isolating from external influences. No independent church or great nobles. Cities had no autonomy. Peasants were living in communes and holding the farmland jointly as families. The land wasnt their property but a lease assigned according to the needs.
          Whereas the Ukraine was formed as semi independent part of Polish- Lithuanian Commonwealth, under the influnce of its diverse culture and institutions on a daily basis mixing western and eastern influences. Power was held by the local elites, a mix of nobles and cossack military officers, the latter were elected instead of hereditary. Unlike in Russia, the church was self governed. Same goes for the cities like Lviv or Kiev. Peasants held individual farms.
          Its a clash of incompatible cultures, which russians will never admit, because its runs to the contrary to their narrative about them and Ukrainians being one nation.
          Anons would do well to read pic rel, it really helps to understand whats going on and why.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Cities had no autonomy.
            Novgorod? (before ivan boiled them alive)
            Also the bigger neighbor wars like the war with Kazan that led to the building of the famous easter egg church on the red square

            From superficial glance seems all you are describing are distinctively muscovite traits which were founded by a legit schizophrenic Ivan the terrible. Lookin at monke and his predecessor seems like everybody who stays too long between the Kremlin wall also turns into a paranoid schizo.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Bingo. Russians claiming Ukrainians are just "Russians who forgot they're Russians" is just Vatnik-Imperial bullshit.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Pretty much this, American Militarily doctrine could turn an animal into a man.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Pretty much this, American Militarily doctrine could turn an animal into a man.
        A Russian doctrine turns an alcoholic ape into a nihilistic assrapist.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          You know what I never understood. . . there is literally nothing that the US military produces that is not public knowledge. You can FOIA ever single document, every field manual, and yet there are such wide disparities between America Doctrine and the Doctrine's of the 2nd & 3rd Worlds.

          Do these people not own computers?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's called corruption and killing/arresting anyone who dares question your way of handling things.

            This is the major difference between NATO armies and Russia. NATO fixes and learns from mistakes while Russia tries to hide them.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Oleksandr was Valeriy's boss, but voluntarily recommend Valeriy be promoted over him because he said, "He's the right man for the job."

              Meanwhile Russians are having factional infights over "MUH POWER".

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Russia and the ANA is probably a good example of why you should deal with corruption while you can. Because it can definitely rot your military and government alike.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This is true for all NATO training. The documents are right there.
            And if you don't want American manuals, you can take the French ones, or the British ones or the German ones.

            The answer is quite simple. Western armies have well trained officers, experienced NCOs and motivated enlisted.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Right, because that worked out so well for us in Afghanistan and Iraq, didn’t it?

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Afghanistan
          Did afghanistan work for ANYONE?
          >Iraq
          The government is still standing and ISOF are fucking hitters.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            We spent tens of billions of dollars training the Iraqi military and it still collapsed like a house of cards against fucking ISIS, of all people. ISOF is a joke.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          American political strategy like any misbegotten strategy easily negates troop quality. A-stan was inherently foredoomed when what should have been at most a punitive raid switched to doomed nation building so no POTUS or party would have to own withdrawal.

          Combat is not the most important part of non-nation-state struggles you ignorant gorilla moron. That's why the Brits and Soviets also lost there.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Nah, US went in there in a fit of rage, without a plan other than the vague slogan of fighting terrorism. The whole thing would have been doomed in any scenario other than doubling down on nation building, and with that i mean not just womans eduction, but actually setting up the building blocks of a society like a working legal system, and ending systemic corruption, stop the drug funded warlords running the countryside (instead of working with them) and many other fundamental issues the US failed to handle or made worse.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          you forgot o also post korea and vietnam, you might as well go for the whole thing whataboutism poster

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      they had the corruption problems but were already far better fighters in 2014, if they weren’t there wouldn’t be a ukraine today

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They were, but it was rampant at that time. Ukraine kicked out their corrupt officers after the crimea fiasco revealed their weakness.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Because before the 2014 revolution, the Ukrainian military was basically an off shoot of the russian military in terms if corruption and systems. I

      Were the Ukies raping and pimping their soldiers the way Russia do?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I feel bad for that kid dear lord. He did good god damnit.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          His only mistake was surrendering afterwards instead of going out in a blaze of glory or getting the hell out of dodge.

          I hope against the odds that he's somewhat okay and he can hold onto til monke gets replaced. Shitholes like Russia makes me value our jury system.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I wonder what happened to this guy. He'd probably be eligible to be volunteered for Wagner Group.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          he was anally raped in prison and is now a "untouchable"

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Ukraine is proof that you really can accomplish just about anything you set your mind to.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I absolutely love the non-uniform appearance of Ukrainian forces. There's much more freedom in it, gives them more personality.

        I hope they maintain a loose sense of uniformity post-war. Far as I'm concerned, they earned it.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Aren't they basically the first ones to find out how effective camo is in urban combat? Been a big question mark for years I imagine.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Hard truth: Russia fucked up by not invading Ukraine in 2014. That's when they could have expected the results they were looking after in 2022 with capturing Kiyev with a week or two.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Instead, the Ukrainians crammed for the invasion exam and got high scores on the big day.

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    A lot of them actually were amateurs rapidly pressed into service

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >why does a vranya infected state that gets its national pride from military propaganda feel the need to downplay anything that could shatter their populace's entire worldview

    It's called cope, anon.

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What do we know about the rate and quality that Ukis are being trained in NATO countries?

    Pre-war there were US/UK/Can training missions that have been credited with Ukraine holding the line when the invasion came, but since I've heard about the UK training infantry in tranches on an accelerated basis and speciality training in Europe, but is this in the hundreds per month or thousands or tens of thousands?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Here's how it work: NATO trains people and those people can also train other people and ad nauseam.

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Ah, Ukrainians. They grow up so fast. It was only a couple of years ago their military had those tacky helmets.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >They do grow up so fast
      They do indeed. They do indeed.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I half-expected the last pic to be Ukrainians....IN SPACE.

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This war has been a meme goldmine.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      He reminds me of the "Strutting Leo" meme.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    How did Ukraine turn themselves around while Afganistan had like 15+ years and they still turned tail and ran?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Above all else? Motivation.

      Ukrainians WANT to fight Russians.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Motivation
        This. Afghans do not want to fight other Afghans, especially not at the behest of a foreign power actively trying to change their culture. Efforts to westernize them just angered them more. They are the ideal Islamic society, the pinnacle of their history and culture is frozen in the Dark Ages and woe betide any who try to change that.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >This. Afghans do not want to fight other Afghans,

          They love that shit, but they hate outsiders more.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          No, them not wanting to change was what caused them to fall in the first place. Remember:the taliban government and even the northern alliance was very corrupt even before the U.S. invaded. They are just corrupt to their core and it will require a hard change in order to see any effect. What happened was the U.S. should have done a better job at building the nation. Because the republic was very corrupt and the U.S. barely did anything to fix that

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This
            US just absolutley sucks at nation building. How do you expect people to have any faith in their country/military when your neighbour can rape your son and you know you can't do anything about it because he is the nephew of the town's police chief who also is an opium trafficker for the local warlord who occasionally provides intel to the Americans on "terrorists" who actually happen to be a bunch of poor poppy farming families (for the competing drug lord next village). So after the US flattens the farmhouse, pissed of famiy members send their sons to Pakistan to train with the Taliban to get revenge on the Americans.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Basically, imagine if burgers supported taliban instead. That's how.

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >or they'd rape me

    wow russia is so trad

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Don’t let vatnig cope live rent free in your head, anon. It’s not good for you. Leave them to seethe and talk about weapons.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    fog of war still seems really bad.
    i watch some interviews with foreign legion or ukrainian troops and they say how much of a shitshow everything is a lot of the time. i do think you can see ukraine has learned plenty since 2014 though. they seem A LOT better than the russians now. i think a big part of their success is the fact that they're defending their homeland from an old enemy, regardless of how shit it gets that counts for something. some will go to insane levels to defend it and their freedom, most russians probably dont want to be there and arent in good conditions either. and dear god the russians have been so bad its not even funny. anything you could blame ukraine for like corruption, bad planning, poor commanders etc is so much worse on the russian side. add in the most likely poor morale and you have a recipe for disaster.

    it will be really interesting getting casualty figures and learning what actually happened in so many places once the war is over. relying on both sides trying to push their narrative can only go so far at the moment. im curious how much us/nato intel and satellites have actually done for the war too. that could end up being more important than most of the weapons sent.(which really isnt that much, at least not super advanced systems, a lot of the money is just going to keep the ukrainian economy afloat)

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      this. ukrainians are still slavs and nothing will change it.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They're slavs, but they're our slavs.

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