Why did the Army go back to a battle rifle after half a century of assault rifles? Posted on May 7, 2023 by PrepHole Contributor Why did the Army go back to a battle rifle after half a century of assault rifles?
Shit got so prevalent that chinks could afford to equip their human wave army with them
mainly this, also constant whining about how 5.56 wasn't good enough in afghanistan, also the potential of new technologies to make engaging at ranges longer than the frequently cited 300m more feasible
I mean thats all well and good, but like the army cant just make a training issue go away by simply buying a fancier gun, and thats what it is a training issue as the M4 is already effective well past 300 and its lack of training beyond 300 thats holding it back. if anything introducing a more powerful rifle is only going to exacerbate the problem so they better hope those fancy optics are worth a damn otherwise armies going to have a rough wakeup call. For once I think the Marines have the right idea doubling down on 556.
Yeah I don’t get it. You can hit a soda can at 500m with an M4 and an ACOG. They also make SAWs fire out to 500m during qual. The Army obviously knows the problem isn’t the round.
Hitting a static target while not under pressure is completely different from trying to catch guys moving between cover when you don't know where they are going to be coming from or when.
For the automatic rifleman, a flatter trajectory is a huge benefit. Being able to hit a group as they move between cover with traversing fire can be the difference between the engagement being over, and the enemy retreating with losses, and ending up in a shitty situation.
5.56mms rainbow ballistics are not ideal for machine guns. I think the choice is largely based on the difference between the M240 and M249. But, it's better logistically not to have two different cartridges.
Part of the decision is also how well the cartridge works with the new fire control system.
>training will solve 5.56 not being effective at penetrating body armor past 300m
Your not penetrating modern body armor at all even with sigs magic bullets, do you have any idea how much energy you need to be packing in order to punch through a level 4 plate let alone do it at range? That new machine gun socom got recently might do it but the spear has no chance in hell. You fail to understand why this weapon was made, it was made for Afghanistan it was made because soldiers kept bitching that they were being outranged by soviet machine guns, and the tried and true stoppan powah fallacy. And though these grievances have some merit the core of the problem is Army not training their people to shoot at ranges beyond 300 yards, which is something I believe the Marines do for their quals. The only answer to body armor until we start giving out Barrett service rifles is gut/leg checking soldiers in plate.
See what? An overconfident post with literally no sources? I've seen from MAC and GT that when you get the full power rounds with FMJ, they "almost" go through level IV. Change the FMJ rounds to something with tool steel in them and they could conceivably go through.
^ This guy tested some 6.8mm equivalent weight/speed bullets against level IV armor and saw that they just barely stop the FMJs. The guy is biased as fuck against 6.8mm and he still admits that steel core round would go through, even though "China will just make new plates that stop the new round".
IMO all this confusion over whether the round will penetrate is benefiting the US. If China thinks they can already stop the round, the US has no reason to say otherwise at the moment.
how long until someone handloads a bullet with a penetrator into one of the high pressure bimetallic cases to see what it can do?
Someone could do it right now. Just get a copper solid round. Like an XD. I've seen from Kentucking Fucking Ballistics that brass solid rounds from elephant guns while smoke through level IV plates.
First, brass is much harder than copper. That's why it's a b& material for commercial/civilian use. Second, he's shooting chinkshit plates most of the time.
>hurddrurr muh secret sauce projectiles.
It's more likely that they don't want to publicly admit that it takes a tungsten carbide cored projectile to meet the penetration goals they are going for. Perhaps even a tungsten carbide cored, zirconium dioxide capped penetrator stuffed in a copper jacket like there's been some published research for out of chyna. At the end of the day the goal was to move money from the DoD budget into MIC companies pockets, so that some colonel/1star gets bumped up a rank and gets a $250k/yr job when they retire
>tungsten carbide cored, zirconium dioxide capped penetrator stuffed in a copper jacket like there's been some published research for
That was an interesting paper, but I wonder how well it scales down, the test used 14.5x114. It does seem to mirror the development of naval AP shells in the 1890s, with the development of Armor-piercing cap shells.
First, he's using brass and a civilian, so you're full of shit. Second, he's shooting American plates, so you're fill of shit.
Why are you so full of shit? Why do you lie without reason?
American plates can be just as bad as bad chinese plates, see RMA, Shotstop, Premier Body Armor, Guard Dog Body Armor, Infidel Body Armor, the list is eternal.
To my knowledge Premier just resells Shotstop plates, which are absolute garbage.
>straight 90 degree angle of attack
>plate is unsecured and allowed to twist
the only proof of this video is how the author is a retard who didn't spend even a few minutes researching how the military tests plates
the only thing your video shows is that im right, it failed to penetrate in the most optimal of situations, basically point blank range which is never going to happen outside room clearing which in itself is a doctrine we are moving away from and at 90* perpendicular to the target. Until I see them fire the actual bullet the military is adopting and do so against a lv 4 armored plate at 100+ yard ideally 300 i could fucking careless because it means nothing.
The most optimal of situations would be them using tungsten. Since they didn't you haven't been shown the most optimal of conditions.
we need AI and smart bullets, 300 will be nothing
Not this fucking meme again. You're not getting through rifle plates without tungsten, just like any other rifle caliber. There is no SIG secret bullet formula.
American plates? Probably not
Chinese plates where they have to equip as many people as quickly and cheaply as possible? Probably
Making the PLA rush to equip for your new wonder round is always gravy
If you're worried about Chink human wave attacks they will wear kevlar vests or nothing at all. Spending money on getting through imaginary rifle plates at the expense of individual ammo capacity is peak retardation. Notice how the chinks aren't in a hurry to change from their 5.8mm cartridge despite the fact they would be going up against even more rifle plates per soldier than vice versa.
Theyre not in a hurry because they cant develop something that can defeat our plates. Neither can we.
>they cant develop something that can defeat our plates. Neither can we.
What is tungsten, on both sides? Good luck getting trough rifle plates with steel core 6.8mm. Scandis have the right idea of just training everyone to aim for the face or crotch whilst ignoring the chest.
Through, obviously. I'm tired.
Like ive already stated twice: its for PFTE plates, like the PLA wear. Same with M855a1 EPR. They both go right through PFTE plates. Even at a distance.
>Same with M855a1 EPR. They both go right through PFTE plates. Even at a distance.
So whats the point of 6.8? Just a concerted effort to decrease the firepower of the individual soldier? Sounds like treason to me but we all know how that will turn out when the benefactor is named """Cohen""".
The program should've resulted in the mass adoption of Textron's case-telescoped ammo, but the retarded boomers in charge of selection got cold feet, due to "muh unproven tecknoloji", and shat up the process, as usual.
I'd say that True Velocity plastic cased ammo was the best to come out from this program. It's amazing except from the enviromental concerns point of view.
It's recyclable, so it's okay for the environment.
Oh yeah they are going to slap case collectors on everything? Fucking idiot
They already do account for every round with existing rifles that use traditional casings. The plastic rounds are easier to collect, since they have a magnetic metal base.
Are you retarded? Some plastic casings will have minimal impact on the environment. We don't know what kind of plastic it is, too.
Then how the fuck do you know it's minimal. You propagandists are fucking stupid
Because I know that you're some Star Wars consuming fanboy. You think anything plastic is bad because Disney said so. I'm merely telling you that this is retarded, and that you yourself may very well be had.
You pieces of shit can't come up with an actual retort.
Listen to yourself. Open your ears and listen. You are so brainwashed that you don't even know what you believe in. Plastic is bad. It's soooo bad. Fuck plastic. Ergh.
Killing people is ugly no matter what. It's better to use plastic cases that can be recycled then brass cases that require smelting and carbon monoxide emitions to create.
The hybrid case shit Sig is using is laughable too and is just going to look worse and worse over time. Polymer case technology is just going to keep improving and the stainless steel cases FN is using in their hotrod .264 shit all over it in the meantime.
If the polymer shit can work at the higher pressure levels needed for .277 Fury there is no reason the army couldn't just switch in a decade or two when the tech is more mature (and cheaper).
.277 Zog garden gnomery is one the cartridges of all time you Nazi scum.
>zoomer MIC simp
I too do enjoy wearing teflon plates. Makes those bullets slip right off of me. Mutt education strikes again.
Colossus plate will stop M993 +P+ and M948. Even tungsten won't work. Also, depleted uranium is a meme for small arms.
A shit ton of former Rangers got cancer from these
DU rounds should be standard issue
Can civilians purchase these for goose hunting?
Colossus didn't even slow down 7.92 SmKH in Buffman's test. Ironic that a Nazi bullet goes right through a giga plate made by ~~*Jake Ganor presents Adept Armor*~~ 80 years later.
They genuinely dont make em like SMKH anymore, that shit is monstrous. Its using tungsten heavy alloy rather than than tungsten carbide, and a larger penetrator than 7n37 to boot.
Those zero-gen Tungsten APs were something else across the board, 7.62x54r BS-40 too.
>ALREADY BARELY STOPS FMJ
>its just normal-ass BFD that 308 would show too
Composites by design deform under impact, and the amount in that video is not concerning whatsoever.
We dont buy plastic plates because one of most common rounds here in the states is m855. Penetrators defeat plastic plates. M855a1 was designed for plastic plates, not whatever BS reason they came up with. Same with the new rifle. The chinese can mass produce PFTE plates, not ceramic.
Idk maybe you gays should stop consuming/distributing propaganda non-stop. I would take chink body armor serious WHEN it is present. That said all this new round is good for is a flatter trajectory but MIC could have had that without the pressure extremes
china has a small number of units that are basically funded as well as the 75th Ranger Regiment that are equipped for heavy urban combat vs taiwan and its allies.
Finally, some /kommando with a brain.
>there's no sig secret formula
Which is why the contract explicitly states that the army will be supplying the projectiles for these rounds. There's literally classified projectiles going into this project and retards like you go "hmmm nothing to see here"
>there's no sig secret formula
Means there is no really unknown formula you can make the core out of for improved AP effects, the field has been pretty strongly investigated and nobody is gonna start using Tantalum. They either are using tungsten carbide and are more retarded (bribed) than I think, because ADVAP 308 already does what they want. OR, they are using DU because its available stateside. Those are the two remotely viable core materials.
And thats the "ultra sekret AP" that is touted as a benefit of the program. Either fully comped rehashing of the M1158, or DU and another great way to get VA bennies in 20 years
PIC VERY RELATED, M1158 ADVAP 7.62x51. It outperforms M993 and can be chambered in existing weapons, but we have to pay ((Cohen)) for a brand new family of weapons, rather than slap the whizzbang FCS on a Ruger SFAR.
The 6.8 "SP" special purpose round IS ADVAP as well.
It better be pretty fucking special for $20 per round.
Less than that now, and this still isn't accounting for the lake city production line that won't be up and running for at least another 2-3 years which should further decrease the cost.
> FY 2024 Base Procurement dollars in the amount of $14.488 million supports the procurement of 1.130 million SP cartridges.
$14,488,000 for 1,130,000 rounds that's about $12.82/round.
>FY 2023 Base Procurement dollars in the amount of $7.858 million supports the procurement of 0.354 million SP cartridges.
$7,858,000 for 354,000 rounds is about $22.19
So in 1 fiscal year we've gone from $22/shot to $15/shot, and all of that is BEFORE we have even built the new mass production facility at lake city.
If that's the progress without having the larger production line up and running, I'm reasonably happy with that.
We don't have a choice, the chinks own the tungsten. and so we're going back to high velocity like the OG M193 from a 20 inch M16 barrel. My concern which isn't a concern for the DoD is that they will burn barrels faster than 6.5 creed, but is a sacrifice they're willing to make.
Sweet, we threw away the LSAT program and all it entailed for reduced soldier load in exchange for +200fps on M1158 (and to enrich a member of the tribe).
40% lower ammo weight and a 9lb SAW replacement? Fuck that, OVERMATCH.
SIG isn't gnomish owned. No polcel screeching will change that fact. CEOs aren't owners of the company to the peanut gallery here.
We lost a good assault rifle but gained the best GPMG ever made. Decent tradeoff imo.
It's weird cause the XM250 is designed a LMG, but with the new service rifle being a battle rifle, it doubles as a GPMG
Does it have a quickswap barrel? If it doesn't, it's not really a GMPG.
Looks like not
>The barrel on the XM250 is not considered to be a quick-change barrel and the stock is collapsible but non-folding.
The design SIG submitted HAD a quick change barrel, the army had them remove it.
In fact, SIG offers that LMG platform to other military customers with a quick change barrel.
>the army had them remove it.
Oh, for fuck's sake, more "high speed, low drag" bullshit. I fucking hate that retarded trend with the fury of 1000 suns.
No quick change barrel, not a GPMG. It won't be doctrinally used as a GPMG, that will be reserved for whatever replaces the 240L which looks like it'll be something similar to the .338 MMGs that SOF have.
Weird, I remember SOF using SCARs for a bit, and then going right back to 5.56.
>whatever replaces the 240L
The M250. .338 NM is replacing .50BMG if you pay attention to SOF and USMC.
I can't see the M250 replacing an M240 for a GPMG duty, without a quick change barrel the M250 is not really all that handy in any sort of sustained firefight.
More likely the .338MG SIG has been working on would replace the M240 for a team GPMG.
The M240 and .338 MG are pretty close to identical weight. (22lbs vs 24lbs)
Its for the war against Russia in the future, and the coming alien invasion, XCom needs new gurns. we also need to give all of our 5.56 to the Ukrainians and Taiwanese for the coming commie horde waives.
It had one and is currently offered with one. .338 isn't coming in that application due to ammo weight. Ironically the same reasons why it's getting helo mounted right now.
If that's not proof enough then there's an active 6.8 m240 conversion kit contract out right now. Writing is on the wall for 7.62.
>there's an active 6.8 m240 conversion kit contract out right now
Woah woah woah, didn't TrueVelocity show off a M240 polymer 6.8 conversion? Just a barrel switch, right?
While they DID put out a "sources sought notice" they specifically said in that sources sought notice at the end it WASN'T a request for proposal.
> Vendors were asked to provide information on their ability to scale up manufacturing and production of kits to higher quantities but the notice shouldn’t be considered a request for proposal.
This was last March. In the year following the RFP was never put out. Basically the army never actually started the contract process and to date, still hasn't.
>Been around since '58
>Still the best GPMG
US Army aint gonna make it in the next 10 years blowing away money like that
bro people been saying that about the airforce since it existed and yet here we are with them wasting more money on planes they don't even use but when the Army wastes a fraction of what they do on something they might actually use it's a big deal.
Why did you repeat my post back to me
He didn't, he said the M250 will replace the M240L, and the 338MG will only replace the M2 .50BMG.
Which is retarded as the M240L has a quick change barrel and the M250 doesn't. I tried explaining to him that the .338MG is far more likely to replace the M240L, but he still doesn't seem to get it.
>I tried explaining to him that the .338MG is far more likely to replace the M240L,
Look up how much .338 NM weighs and get back to us.
>No barrel change
You keep saying this when SIG itself offers it and only removed it because the military didn't want it (per SIG) lmao.
That's because the 250 is the choice. It was always a SAW replacement program going back to the original LSAT and now with 6.8 they've made the 240 redundant. Win win all around.
>Look up how much .338 NM weighs and get back to us.
500 rounds of .338NM is ~105lbs vs 800 rounds of 7.62 at ~100lbs.
So for 5lbs more you get a 300 grain bullet effective at ranges upwards of 5000 meters. Vs the M240L which is effective up to ~1500 meters at best firing a ~150 grain bullet.
Considering you can engage at like 3x the range, I'd say the ammo trade off is well worth it, especially for a TEAM MG.
Again, we're not talking about an MG that a single person is expected to lug around and use by themselves.
If you're at an FOB would you rather have your perimeter MGs be M240Ls or 338MGs? I'd take the 338 personally because ammo weight means a lot less when you're not walking 20 kilometers with it.
Obviously, no one is suggesting the .338 MG is going to replace the M249 at the squad level, it could never be an LMG, it weighs too much and the ammo weight would make it absurd for a single person to carry the gun AND the ammo for it. But when you're talking about a team run GPMG?? That ammo weight means less, you're not generally going to going out on far flung patrols, you're not expected to carry 1000's of rounds of ammo on long hikes by foot.
You’re never going to shoot shit at 5000m. Honestly half that is probably the furthest you’ll ever engage. Just too hard to see what is what further out.
And this is why IVAS + squad level drones and highly networked battle space is going to be a game changer.
I'm not saying it'll magically make 5000 meter shots possible, but it's going to make 2000+ meter shots a LOT more feasible and currently they're next to impossible without a lucky sniper (or guided bombs/missiles)
It's not going to make even 100m shots possible if they're blocked by a wall. Drones+HE remains the meta.
Obviously, but you shouldn't discount a nice MG covering an open field.
If you’re going to go through the hassle of launching a drone you can just get CAS or AWT. Part of the advantage of machine guns and mortars is you can have them on target in like a minute.
>the hassle of launching a drone
Lol, are you retarded?
We're talking squad-level drones that a squad leader would have on his person able to deploy in 30-90 seconds and able to do some recon within a few kilometers.
I'm not talking about tasking some wider area air asset to come give support.
Dude you can have a 2000lb bomb dropped in like 5 minutes. What the fuck are you even talking about? That squad leader ain’t going to waste his fucking time.
Then why not give everyone 9mm PCCs and save a ton of money on ammo costs?
If we're gonna call in 5000lb bombs instead of using a $200 drone and our rifles, fuck it, might as well not have the rifles at all, just use drones and bombs and maybe dudes on the ground with binoculars a few miles away to give it all some human oversight.
>Then why not give everyone 9mm PCCs and save a ton of money on ammo costs?
It's going to end up that way.
Assault rifles are going to be obsolete pretty soon, if they aren't already, in armies with advanced technology. 25-40mm grenades, rockets, drones, arty, etc. are going to drive both defense and offense.
That's kinda where the LSAT program was headed before it got hijacked by "muh overmatch". Lightweight weapons and ammo, effective out to roughly AR/SAW ranges, freeing up weight so that soldiers could carry more sensors, comms, batteries, and maybe some manpack guided HE.
>Then why not give everyone 9mm PCCs and save a ton of money on ammo costs?
>If we're gonna call in 5000lb bombs instead of using a $200 drone and our rifles, fuck it, might as well not have the rifles at all, just use drones and bombs and maybe dudes on the ground with binoculars a few miles away to give it all some human oversight.
lmfao, they should unironically do this
literally small-arms are fucking POINTLESS, and are for "shooting to move"
you shoot your rifle to move, thats it
Why not just use a guided munition instead? They're a lot more accurate, and can hit guys behind cover.
late to the party but they will keep both the 240 and use the 250 (probably as a squad LMG). they will just rebarrel the 240 and use it as a support weapon.
>We lost a good assault rifle but gained the best GPMG ever made. Decent tradeoff imo.
This is actually an interesting characterization of the program. I was upset because NSGW killed a significantly better AR, but the assault rifle isn't the important part. The infantryman's job is really to enable the LMG in an immediate confrontation, and enabling an LMG that knocks the socks off a PKM in weight while at least hanging in lethality is a good spot to be in. I still think lighter ammunition has its merits, but this helped me to understand the mindset.
Oh wow, overmatch is still a thing? I can't believe this dumb concept from the GWOT era is still going strong and minting cash after all this time. Why can't we just make and issue a PKM clone in 7.62x51 and be done with it?
>the object is to provide overmatch capability
always heard this project was born from that hilariously retarded HK sales rep powerpoint presentation but I thought that was just hyperbole...I guess NGSW really is born from boomer retardation after all
>yfw we are CURRENTLY 5-10 years from switching to ONLY using 6.8x51 and .338NM for 90% of troops.
Do you think the military volume will be sufficient to encourage/coerce civilian conversion from .223?
Civvie versions would need to have 16"+ barrels, wouldn't they? That might make for an impractical and heavy rifle. Besides, I don't think that the military's stock of steel-core ammo is going to be released. M855A1 and M80A1 are still super scarce on the civilian market.
So... nah, probably not.
No because 5.56 is better, and the army is about to learn why they dropped their first battle rifle.
Chinks own all the world's tungsten. Burgers use their stockpile DU or get BTFO in a war. The is no magic recipe.
>Chinks own all the world's tungsten
They have 75%.
That was the theory, anyway. The Ukraine war showed a serious lack of body armor among Russian forces
Yes, but that's the Russians, and as we all knew well before the Ukraine debacle, Russia does not possess any capability to reliably equip their troops with equipment (in bulk). They get 1 to every man, and then the generals embezzle the rest of their budget, and the troops sell the 1 they were given to get krokodil or gay sexual favors.
In-so-far, China seems to be taking up the mantle of the new, big, scary Bad Guy. They can equip their troops with shit in bulk, the question is of course: Is it chinesium or actually good? We won't know until we have to fight them, or get an engagement comparable to Ukraine with China involved. I'd like to think the stuff they sell online is intentionally bad and that they'd reserve the "good" quality body armor/etc for themselves, but it's a coin toss in my opinion
>they keep the good stuff for themselves
That's sort of the vibe I got from my chicom chest rigs. It's like they sell everyone else crap but put in actual effort to the stuff they use.
This. They don't want to be caught with their pants down if a war with China ever started.
You should read the thread before you hit "reply," you goof.
The proliferation of reliable, durable optics such as the ACOG and now LVPOs has made it viable to engage at ever greater distances
When every soldier essentially has aimbot, it makes sense to just outrange the enemy
The real question is wether they will keep m4's for building clears
I would love to see either of you try to hit a moving target at 500m with a 1-8x LPVO. Yes, you can have the snazzy "aimbot" auto BDC too, it'll be a learning experience when you see that knowing the range isn't even half the battle of taking a longer ranged shot.
Because the Chinese got us in numbers, near peer level iii-iv plates, and their 5.8 cartridge which performs better than the 5.56.
Oh and they own most of the world's tungsten supply, so they'll definitely be using tungsten cores to challenge our own esapi/xsapi plates.
This is stupid because in any type of near peer war, shrapnel from grenades and shells will be again the decisive factor in infantry combat, like we're seeing in Ukraine.
This is all a mind bug left over from the GWOT and a waste.
Tell that to the Marines during the Battle of Chosin Reservoir, they were effectively nailing Chicoms 800 yards away using 30-06 and .30 cal. By the time they closed the gap, there was parity and didn't get overwhelmed by the sheer numbers.
whatever you say grampa
Just sayin, for every 1 American, there will be 20-40 Chicoms. Once the Chinese get within 300 yards they will overwhelm us w/ suppressive fire. They are literal zergs in nature.
the taiwanese will outnumber the chicoms and the US will just drop bombs and missiles from standoff range and try to sink as many ships as they can. More likely to see a nuclear exchange than US infantry exchanging rifle fire with chicoms on land imho.
Yup there was a reason why General MacArthur wanted to drop 30-50 atomic bombs in China. The man was ahead of his time. They breed and swarm like crazy.
>for every 1 American there will be 20-40 Chicoms
>let's cut the grunt's combat loadout by 40% while increasing the weight of his load and doubling the recoil
Novel concept: use the same hybrid case for the XM7, and give it to a reinforced M4A1, maybe license the KAC bolt. Now you've increased the capability of 5.56 to well beyond even the theoretical capabilities of 5.8 without hamstringing the grunts ability to kill people. Keep the XM250 if it's really better than a LAMG
That's why we have GMLRS and PGK.
>nailing at 800 with .30 Carbine
Do you enjoy humiloating yourself online? Thank god this place is anonymous.
there's no way that China mass produces general issue tungsten rifle ammo. It's would be a gigantic stupid waste even for them.
We were using M995 against, patriotic goat farmers during GWOT while paying the Chinese for their tungsten, that right there is the definition of huge waste.
IIRC that was mostly used in SAWs mixed with green tips or FMJs, and far from being general issue for rifles.
They literally mass-produce fishing weights out of tungsten.
Because as we kept progressing and becoming stronger, our top brass looked around and saw everyone stagnating. It became readilly apparent that near pear will never happen for atleast this century and instead of an offensive doctrine with infantry we have shifted over to just blowing them into the stone age with minimal troops present. DMRs and BRs are good for this task due to the bullets being heavier and more stable for further distances, so it’s basically to kill goat fuckers who manage to crawl out of the burning rubble from a distance
>Because as we kept progressing and becoming stronger, our top brass looked around and saw everyone stagnating.
year 7 of the two week US offensive to recapture the Russian Donbass
Fuck me why can’t guns be more aesthetic anymore? I get that “mass production is good” but weapons in the past practically OOZED charisma
What’s the pic
nosebleed kid meme ... I had to look it up myself.
My great grandfather said the same thing when he was growing up, because he thought the M-14 had no soul compared to the 1903. Lmfao
He was right, the m1903 is sex, but the Krag is even prettier.
Krag sounds like the name of an STD
This mass produced, small bore, modern crap with interchangeable parts simply cannot compare to the glorious big-bore hand fitted trapdoor Springfield.
No, trapdoor actions are visually bland. If you had said a Sharps Rifle or Snider Enfield you may have been right.
these newfangled Rifles and Lever actions have no soul compared to the smoothbore muskets we used to win the REVOLUTION!!!
are we looking at the same gun? Nothing about the sig rifles looks mass produced. If you were talking about a grease gun or PPS I would get where youre coming from but wtf are you smoking
they switched to a theoretically armor piercing round so they could try and kill the second most heavily armored infantry force in the world: american civilians. russians and chinks dont even use armor
No. Its for plastic plates. The kind the PLA wear. You aren't going to pen lvl 4 ceramic plates - especially at any distance, with a rifle light enough to carry.
>why didnt they just say that instead of looking stupid?
Because the DoD doesn't give a fuck what you think. They do care about producing ready-made propaganda for chinese internal consumption.
>nah they're just tarded, or want to shoot 'murikans.
>A round either pens of it doesn't pen. Degrading the armor is irrelevant. BABT isn't real. A soldier with level 4 armor can just stand there and tank 10 hits to their plate of .30-06 as well as they could .22LR, it's only pen on first shot or no pen because that's what NIJ uses.
>Also, the completely arbitrary 44mm BFD standard based on 1980s research on handguns is totally legit, despite copious data supporting that higher powered rounds cause injury and death at lower levels of BFD.
>Our only hope is to aim for their dicks or eyes because if a single round doesn't pen a guy is immune to fire from that round anywhere the plate covers.
>Also, a flatter trajectory is completely irrelevant to trying to get a dick shot on a moving target at 200+M.
6.8mm is more likely to cause injury without pen and more likely to pen in less hits. It also has better ballistics.
This is leaving aside that the switch wasn't even primarily for body armor.
dont bother. ive seen guys here claim that if some miracle material could stop 14.5mm you could take hits from it and be fine because they watched some youtube of a guy claiming to be firing 7.62 point blank into another dudes 1990s plate and he could hardly feel it
What? The KE would fuck you up regardless even if it was stopped. That is some extra retardation.
Does it fuck up your shoulder?
Not a lot of people understand basic physics.
>>Also, the completely arbitrary 44mm BFD standard based on 1980s research on handguns is totally legit, despite copious data supporting that higher powered rounds cause injury and death at lower levels of BFD.
Retard, plates are worn in plate carriers, and some, like the Strandhogg, have shit-tons of padding. 44mm on a bare plate probably translates to less than 30mm in a decent carrier.
Besides, plates have taken a lot of shots in the sandbox, and there's not a single account of a death on account of BFD.
1. Incidences of BABT haven't been tracked.
2. Small arms in general produced a very low share of casualties in the GWOT due to the nature of the conflict.
3. The US has excellent first aid and excellent medevac in general, and with free reign of the skies, had very rapid medevac. BABT injuries can be fatal. A collapsed lung will kill you. But they are not immediately fatal and can be stabilized.
4. You don't need to immediately kill someone to take them out of combat. A guy with 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung, a flail chest, etc. is not going to be combat effective and will be a liability rather than an asset.
We have plenty of instances of BABT causing casualties.
Are you saying that armor is worthless because BABT can be a problem?
Brother, if you're that worried about it, just stick a foam trauma pad behind your armor and watch BABT go to 10mm or less.
> We have plenty of instances of BABT causing casualties.
Not serious ones. Why do you think that the .mil is moving to a 58mm backface deformation limit, from 44mm?
No, I'm saying higher powered rounds cause more BABT and are more likely to pen in fewer hits, which all evidence suggests to be true.
The military is looking at different standards because of weight and fatigue issues that hurt situational awareness and accuracy. They also started allowing company commanders to authorize soldiers to forgo armor, does this mean wearing armor isn't actually worth while because the military also looked at just dumping it all together?
>more likely to pen in fewer hits
>Moving targets flitting about in excess of 400m in a combat situation getting nailed more than once reliably
I'm really starting to wonder if M5 proponents even grasp the basics of what infantry combat is like, but then again I guess actually shooting at people on deployment might have made me overestimate other's understanding.
>no the rounds won't really penetrate plates, but just hit them multiple times and that should do the trick
>btw, here's your 140 round combat loadout, good luck lmfao
You... ummm... y-you might need to hit them in their plates and incapacitate them due to backface deformation!
Don't worry the "smart scope" (read; has an auto BDC) turns every grunt into a sniper, because windage is no biggie and it's not like anyone who has gone through a military range qual can tell you there is a laughable amount of people who won't even shoot at a flip-up at 300y with a 4x ACOG. You won't even notice that 33% reduction in ammo, just go ahead and try and plug Chang three times in the chest when he's in between cover at 500.
>windage is no biggie
with 6.8 it literally isn't, the round is big enough and fast enough that at the range your talking it'll be on point regardless of any crosswind
Yo, it's not that big and not that fast. It's a bit smaller and, from the 13" barrel they're issuing with the Spear, only a little bit faster than regular .308.
noooooooooo its a hecking particle beam didnt you read the OVERMATCH powerpoint? 0 time of flight out to 3700m. Its not just 150fps more than 7.62x51
A 10mph crosswind will make 6.8 shift 20" at 500 you retard
New smart scopes don't even fire unless you're going to get a hit. No guns journalists were hitting small moving targets better than marksmen with fire control systems back in 2014, the problem has just been reliability in the field and weight.
If Fudds were in control we'd still be aiming all artillery and tank rounds with a pen and paper.
>New smart scopes don't even fire unless you're going to get a hit.
No, you're thinking of Tracking-Point, which was tested and rejected by the military. They apparently went under a few years ago, and the scraps got bought up by another company.
>I think the Chinese have armor that makes the INVULNERABLE to 6.8mm all over their bodies.
>Yeah, better have an even weaker cartridge where we have to engage at even closer range.
>Actually the ideal is to try to 360 no scope their dicks, the one unarmored parts.
Why not use .22 if cartridge power and ballistics don't matter. You could carry tons!
Do you have any idea what long distance engagements look like?
rule of thumb is that anyone promoting this shit hasn't shot at a target over 200 yards, hence posts like
and tweedledumb you're replying to who think a limited ammo loadout for nailing extremities and heads of an enemy under cover at 500+ with a LPVO is a viable method of infantry combat
>reply to post saying that repeated hits to armor makes 6.8 good to go for combating armor with counteragument that doing this is very unlikely and doubly so with a limited amount of ammo
>"OH SO YOU THINK WE SHOULD BE USING .22S HUH??"
Go blow your brains out you insufferable midwit.
He meant .223s
He's still retarded to the point of illiteracy and needs to kill himself.
that's fucking stupid then, the only people who refer to .223 as a .22 round are retarded fudds who still say "poodle shooter" unironically
it is a .22 round though
so is .224 Valkyrie. .30 carbine and 30-06 have 100% interchangeable diameters also. do you see how you're being dumb?
No not really, are you trying to claim .30 Carbine isn't a .30 cal, .223 and .224 are .22 caliber.
This is the same shit as .50AE and .50 BMG they are both .50 caliber.
You're a retard, congratulations.
nta but he's not wrong .223 is a .22 caliber you have yet to give any reason it's not except screeching about how it's bigger.
moron it is literally .22 caliber. Anyone saying it has the same performance as .22lr is retarded. Anyone saying it is .22 is factually correct. have a nice day. Seriously.
Yeah because it is literally a Varmint round, prior to GWOT literally every advertisement for the thing was advertising it as good for coyotes and other things bigger than rabbits and smaller than whitetail. It wasn't until we made 500 special bullets that make it remotely decent at anything else. Also just as a reminder every single "assault rifle" is just a overgrown SMG.
Then why did he say .22s?
Because he's either a dumb noguns who doesn't understand that more goes into a bullet's performance than the numbers that make up its diameter or he's trying to conflate .223 and .22lr together in a snide remark at the former's performance. Either way he clearly can't read and is retarded since he attempted to counter my post with something completely unrelated.
If you're relying on fucking backface deformation you've already lost the battle.
>despite copious data supporting that higher powered rounds cause injury and death at lower levels of BFD.
So you can show me a death through a hard plate from backface deformation, right? RIGHT? YOU WOULNDT JUST SPREAD FUDDLORE WOULD YOU?
>Oy gevalt it just isnt tracked
How convenient for your fudd stance, meanwhile the military is going towards a relaxed 58mm standard for new VTP plates because 44mm was gay and retarded.
>A guy with 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung, a flail chest, etc. is not going to be combat effective and will be a liability rather than an asset.
In what world has that happened with a composite plate taking mere 7.62x54r? Some projectiles have the capability to penetrate them, but none have the kinetic energy to do what you suggest.
>heaviest, best plates in existence
6.5lbs is below average for level IV, that it makes every other plate look like a candyass is icing on the cake. If it were 8lbs like a budget IV it would stop .50 AP
Gonna have to give everybody rocket launchers now.
t. Shogun II: Total War.
Isuing Pike missiles throughout a squad would have been a much better use of funds, yeah.
Seriously, it might be time to revisit the 20mm airburst munition from the old OICW.
Or a new type of ++P++ shotgun that can serve in both an anti-personnel and anti-drone/flak role.
Of, if those won't work, light rocket launchers for every infantryman, and the Chink's grenade launcher machinegun instead of a regular squad automatic weapon.
20mm turned out to be a dud. Not enough HE, not enough fragments. 25mm is the bare minimum, and modern 40mm is excellent.
You could conceivably make a 25mm airburst grenade longer and thinner, which would be better for aerodynamics anyway. Or you could pack it with a more powerful high explosive.
What you shouldn't do is just give up.
25mm grenades are just cool. They turn regular infantrymen into combat wizards.
I mean, that's also true of M855 and M855A1, though.
>I mean, that's also true of M855 and M855A1, though.
Sure but 6.8 is UNDENIABLY another level beyond that. Not just range, but penetration and lethal effects on target.
Retards didn't design the 20mm right. 20mm mineshell for MG151 is on par woth V40 minigrenade.
How much does it cost? I heard canucks are using it.
The best way to deal with plates is to drop guided HE into the enemy's lap, and pepper them with fragments where the armor ain't.
A couple generals got upset that Taliban with heavy machine guns were outranging troops with SAWs when shooting from one mountaintop to another. So, instead of doing the logical thing and giving the troops cheap guided munitions that could take out those HMG positions, they hijacked the LSAT/CTSAS program that was almost ready to deliver a lightweight carbine and SAW with lightweight cased-telescope polymer ammo (which would have freed up enough weight for most men to carry a Pike or Switchblade as needed), and re-wrote the requirements to demand a magnum battle-rifle cartridge more powerful than .30'06.
Look at the use of guided munitions and drone bombers in Ukraine, and tell me that NGSW is the right weapon for the future with a straight face.
The weapons don't have to actually do what they were prescribed to do. The main advantage is creating a black hole of data not even Chinese spies could penetrate.
The enemy has a new wonder round that could tear through your troops at will while your rounds might not? That's overmatch, an extra layer of deterrant. It's about setting the stage for future fights and dictating the pace your rival must run in order to keep up.
>The main advantage is creating a black hole of data
FASB56 accounting. And given the state of the world with Coof, freaks like Chuck Lieber out of Harvard, and Manchurian Big Guys in the highest office in the land, it's probably for the best. Same for F-35 so-called 'boondoggle' which totally isn't just running interference for the whole thing being not actually leading edge but handmedowns off the shelf, good enough for overmatch in an environment where the old Sino-Soviets reactivating is as scary as paper tigers.
>It's about setting the stage for future fights and dictating the pace your rival must run in order to keep up
Bullshit falls aside when shooting actually starts
Bullshit like China having a competent modern Officer Corps instead of a bunch of party approved, throne sniffing, yes men? Or that their war virgin army will sustain so many losses in the first week of inept fighting that even the party wouldn't be able to obfuscate the numbers from the populace?
There's probably people in at the Pentagon who know more about what's going on in Ukraine than from what you've seen on telegram and PrepHole.
This is a literal cope, it's a fucking rifle round
US Army is run by retards who are paid to do retarded shit.
Grafts and kickbacks boys. Grafts and kickbacks.
Revenge of the Reformers
They built the perfect rifle for Afghanistan just as Afghanistan ended. It really is that simple.
Such rifle is not even userlfull in Afghanistan either. Casualties data indicates that small arms at long range produced very little effects. 1000m range shooting match better squad/platoon sized force may be fun but it produces no effects and leads nowhere.
>Casualties data indicates that small arms at long range produced very little effects
I sure wonder if any of that happens to do with the fact that 90% of rounds fired were from 14.5" M4 carbines.
Gee, I won't if giving soldiers a full powered cartridge paired with a an integrated fire control system smart scope, ballistics computer, and rangefinder combo could increase the effectiveness?
Data on the M2 shoes its effective out to just about a mile, 1,900 meters due to flat ballistics, plenty of power, and high volume. What if we upped the accuracy to offset lost volume?
When tanks got fire control systems their effective range went up. Tanks got bigger guns because they could utilize them better at range and because of armor advances. Same thing here.
Notably, people also said that electronic targeting systems would ruin tank crews, make them vulnerable, wouldn't work, and arguments were made against bigger shells because you needed volume to offset misses. Now it's unthinkable not to use these. The tech is just shrinking.
Systems have already been fielded in Syria that allow a user to keep the trigger depressed while the weapon only fires on a calculated hit. This drastically reduced concerns about recoil since follow up shots merely involve moving the weapon back on target, not timing the shot, while it also can drastically reduce ammo usage, alleviating capacity concerns.
Gee, it turns out it doesnt you absolute massive gay bitch
must be why the US is doing so well in its proxy invasion of Russia right?
The fuck does that have to do with anything dumbass?
your pointless fucking battle rifle has been obsoleted 10x over in the span of 14 months of US floundering in Russia over the Donbass.
it turns out, wunderwaffe battle rifles are fucking meaningless in a world of DJI drones, and suppressive fire to move in human wave attacks
further turns out, having 20 big rounds, sucks WAY HARDER
than having 30+ smaller rounds
who could have ever guessed that?
Your picrel is an LMG though.
Suppressors makes gun soft and smoof
Anticipating brass shortages in worst case scenario of Pan-Eurasian Super-Pinko State and/or communist demociding their own citizenry.
Civilians got access to rifle plates
The first time a NGSW, IVAS, smart scope equipped, VR COP integrated infantry squad gets in combat it will be a Bekaa valley moment for ground combat.
Would it (not the LMG) technically be a battle rifle? The caliber is higher than a standard intermediate assault rifle round but lower than a full rifle round right?
Wait nevermind, its the dimensions of a full size rifle cartridge, its literally a battle rifle
It's also a magnum round, so it's even hotter than 30'06.
It's .308 necked down with some absurdly high chamber pressure
Imagine selling 270 winchester for 20$ a round. WTF I love military contracts now.
~$12.80/round in FY24
It was $22/round in the FY23 budget.
I should also clarify, the normal ball ammo is less than $1.35/round. Only the "special purpose" (probably tungsten) round is $12+/round.
So is it really expected to come down more in price?
One day you guys are going to have to come to terms with the fact that rifles really just aren't that important.
This. Rifles don't win wars, they don't even make up 10% of combat casualties. Literally does not matter what the average retard is carrying or how well they can place fire at 500y. Rifles are for holding ground positions for days and occasionally clearing buildings
Which is an excellent reason to shrink them and make them lighter, so that soldiers can carry more of what *is* important (sensors, comms, manpack guided HE, etc.). That's what LSAT was trying to accomplish before it was hijacked.
There's some valid reasons for having battle rifles around
>not all combat is the sort that requires an assault rifle, engagement distance stats be damned, sometimes you do want that extra bit of range and power over a giggle switch
>won't insta-break armor but will be more effective at it than an intermediate cartridge
And there's also some retarded ones floating around in this process too
>the brass is fighting yesterday's war today, we needed some battle rifles for Afghanistan and only after leaving do they get them
>don't use it to replace previous infantry cope for battle rifles, the M16a4 (no full auto because again, yesterday's war is fought today, introduce burst fire to deal with conscripts wasting ammo and then switch to a professional military anyway)
>DO use it to replace the M4, so you have no good weapons for closer engagements the infantry may face.
Someday people will look back on the Spear the same way they do UCP. The P320 is already seen about that way. The unfair part is that I haven't heard anything wrong with the gun itself (a great achievement considering the last Nig-Saur product the military adopted NDs at random), it's how it's being implemented that's the issue. If every man who was normally issued an M16 was given a Spear and they left the M4s alone, then it'd be fucking fine.
Mark my words, we're going to see some serious issues with closer engagements in the next conflict unless the M4s stay or are given a suitable replacement for their role. And then it's back to the procurement shitfest all over again to fuck up what worked and keep what didn't.
In addition to what you've posted, I suspect there are still a number of people who continue chasing the mythical Single Common Caliber, to replace both 5.56 and 7.62.
>still a number of people who continue chasing the mythical Single Common Caliber
That would seem to come down to the same reason the universal camo meme is perpetuated, in that it's largely to simplify logistics rather than any field benefits.
As I see it, that's a pipe dream. Logistics will never be so simple unless we've reached a stage where the only ammo we need is batteries for energy weapons and active camouflage/cloaking systems exist as our camo. Short of those, nothing material can take the role of another. Universal camo is a meme because there's no one magic tone or blend of tones that will work good everywhere (the world's full of greens and browns and tans and whites and a lot else, splotchy beige fabric won't work in all of them), just meh everywhere. You can have a dedicated pattern for different climates which all work perfectly for their intended roles or you can just go full retard and insist that UCP totally doesn't glow in the dark to save on logistics.
I get that logistics are as serious as a heart attack, but having a few different things in circulation shouldn't kill them. Not like we're Nazi Germany tank corps tier as far as procurement and logistics go, we have standardization. Really even having a couple different pistol calibers shouldn't fuck up procurement that much. Unnecessary, but it makes my point clear, two kinds of bullets shouldn't be that hard. I fail to see why they still try to oversimplify the shipping when the destination's on fire.
>two kinds of bullets shouldn't be that hard.
Every variant of just 5.56 is considered completely different as far as logistics is concerned. It's not just 5.56 and 7.62. IE 5.56 M855 vs M855 belted are two completely different things and are packaged as such. As is every variant of 5.56 we use which is a lot.
They're already converting m4s over into rattlers at SOF units. It's very likely that we'll see 5.56/300 bo subguns fill the role for close engagements that ultra short m4s filled.
5.56/300bo is not a subgun
I remember reading all these talking points a thousand times before
it: slavering retardation
It's because you can make a battle rifle about the same weight as an assault rifle... Even WITH a fuckhuge battery pack intended to power more advanced peripherals, such as the new sights that were designed specifically for this gun program
Why would you try to make a weaker gun when the physical constraints would make that effort worthless? Easy to understand, this is still ignoring the "program with requirement to penetrate body armor doesn't penetrate body armor" cope
>you can make a battle rifle about the same weight as an assault rifle
Which this isn't, so...
they didn't it got cancelled m4 will still be main rifle with only a few units getting the new rifle
Too much money to waste
>PrepHole: the M5 is absolute shit because it is amazingly heavy. Those three extra pounds will kill soldiers and make them ineffective.
>also PrepHole: 6.8mm is useless if it doesn't pen the heaviest, best plates in existence. Our probable opponents will be covered in heavy armor despite the militaries that can afford such armor already moving away from them due to weight issues.
>PrepHole: spergs sperging out over who can be the biggest sperg
Actually, those are not contradictory.
The justifications for 6.8 are penetration and range. If 6.8 can't penetrate, or if soldiers under combat stress can't accurately hit fleeting targets at range despite the new scope, then what was the point? You might as well go to a lighter weapon with a lighter round, and free up the weight for stuff that *will* hit and defeat armor at range, like lightweight guided HE (Switchblade, Pike, minidrone bombers, etc.).
It can penetrate. Soldiers can hit targets under duress.
Literally every study ever says they can't.
Literally every person who was shot in a battle proves they can.
>Literally every person who was shot in a battle proves they can.
lol people shot at absolute fucking random, by a platoon of guys volley-spraying in a general direction?
are you seriously suggesting that soldiers john-wick eachother on 'the battlefield' like action heroes?
Right. Wearable armor, no matter how thick, isn't going to stop an explosive blast powerful enough to turn your brain into jello.
Sidearms/PDWs plus rockets/drones/explosives are the new meta.
It's not just the concussive force. The idea is that the plate has to be reasonably small, or the weight gets out of control. A frag in your lap hits all the places that aren't covered by the plates. The only way to protect against that would be an armored exoskeleton, and advances in that direction have been rather underwhelming over the last couple of decades.
>If 6.8 can't penetrate
It can, it's just meant to penetrate body armor like morons on PrepHole like to rage about.
It's meant to penetrate light to moderate cover, wood buildings, sheet metal, etc. It has the weight and speed to not just instantly start tumbling the moment it hits something and can still easily kill someone standing on the other side of cover.
just NOT meant
>It's meant to penetrate light to moderate cover, wood buildings, sheet metal, etc
Have any documentation for this?
The issue with 6.8mm is that the amount of rounds a guy can take is much reduced. This means an entirely new tactical doctrine needs to be trained. Why? Because you're suddenly walking around with fewer rounds and you're now forced to make sure your rounds hit or you're gonna be dry
Will help, sure, but if you're a guy who has been taught to dump your rounds at an area to pin them so a guy can drop something heavy on them, suddenly being told
>Yeah don't do that, make sure your shots count
Requires new learning. While people in Iraq et al complained that 5.56 wasn't good because they were fighting guys hopped up on opium and wearing slabs of metal that charged towards them to blow themselves up had a good point about needing something that can drop them in one go, they should have thought about the general doctrine/tactics that need to shift for the new round.
You know everyone forgets one of the obvious things all the time with this too. Vehicle armor is only rated to a certain threshold too. Think off all the lighter MRAP and trucks that were armored to just 7.62/5.56. these new rounds at closer ranges can cause vehicle losses.
Their 22 caliber gucci /arg/s kept getting outgunned by standard soviet tech operated by true believers. That led to like billions of dollars worth of CAS over a couple decades. But they're going to have to reinvestigate flechette technology when drone grenades becoms a global concern.
>kept getting outgunned by standard soviet tech operated by true believers
I mean, if you ignore the ridiculously one sided KIA rate, sure
Anon you will not get through to people with 4chan brain rot, it is impossible. They cared to learn infographics and I FUCKING LOVE SCIENCE tier memes and that's about it.
>I mean, if you ignore the ridiculously one sided KIA rate, sure
CAS, armored vehicles. Field studies literally showed soldiers complaing from day 1 that jihadis dont fall over good from 5.56 and M4's. Which is exactly why we're talking about them going back to battle rifles. So they can actually reach out and touch some goat fucker on the ridge of a mountain. But it's like almost 20 years after the fact.
I was there you dumb moron kek, we were never outgunned by small arms at any point, especially the AKs, Mosins, RPKs, SKS', etc that were most common. Retard Privates and uneducated NCOs love to complain because they don't ever consider the other side of the firefight when they bitch. The Taliban (and dozens of other regional militias, but we all pretend they didn't exist) got fucking rekt by 240s/Mk 48s and volume of fire from 249s in almost all engagements.
> jihadis dont fall over good from 5.56 and M4's
Yeah that happens when you miss them under adrenaline and totally swear you hit them
t. Barawala Kalay fag
Remember that reality almost never matches the grunt's opinion.
>Retard Privates and uneducated NCOs love to complain because they don't ever consider the other side of the firefight when they bitch
This, happens all the time in videogames too. Noobs always whine without considering what the opponent is going thru
Why wasn't he wearing his armor?
garden gnomes will bribe and blackmail their way into anything with extreme confidence you naive child. MIC was actually one of the last holes garden gnomes had not shat into. I'll not enjoy watching burgeristan collapse and burn.
SIG also got the new service pistol. They're making bank.
Allegation: Somebody at SIG has friends in low places.
Which is a total piece of shit compared to the 92FS
Everyone ITT is talking out of their asses
>MCX rattler PDW
The future is ALL SIG
Sheer coincidence, go back to sleep.
.338 Lapua kicks that much ass, and the spec ops guys were using 6.8 and 6.5 in iraq because the insurgents got their hands on level 4 plates and clearing rooms in cities got to be pretty scary.
The army is going the way of the old WW2 military, several rifles firing different calibers. The MCX Spear is gonna be like the M1 garand, and the M4 is gonna stick around to be used in the same way the m1 carbine was used.
Which is kinda dumb, because nobody can point to a genuinely good reason for the Spear's existence in the first place.
its a result of 20 years of war where 5.56s weaknesses were weighed and measured and alot of really awesome guns and new calibers came out in those years, and the army said I want something new, people said the same thing when we switched from 30-06 and 308 to 5.56, and believe me people were still using 30-06 when the m14 was around. 5.56 is like 70 years old now.
>the M4 is gonna stick around to be used in the same way the m1 carbine was used.
thats kinda been my guess. Theres gonna be a lot of 2nd line dudes and dudes with UGL's that won't need a big fuck off battle rifle
that and we still have mountains of 556 to piss away
Will be interesting to see if they develop a new furniture or refurbish package in the future to modernize the old m4's still kicking around
Will the 338 MG replace the M240?
Is that guy's meme moustache shopped?
no hes popped up in a few videos on youtube around the new guns, thats his legit mustache
they perform very different tasks
because they want to sell more guns by making everyone believe 556 is obsolete
people in charge of this stuff get kickbacks, lucrative consulting gibs from the companies that get tax money to make this shit
Civilians bought up all the assault rifles.
>not even caseless
We've had the tech since the 60s, I don't get the hesitation in adopting it. Shitty half-measures like the new sig rifle feel like a lot of money and ball ache for no benefits.
Because in testing it ran like fucking shit.
How hard is to understand for you people? It didn't get picked because it was shit. Same for polymer ammo true velocity had.
Then make it a requirement and force the designers to work it out.
That's not how the military works, if you want to do that shit take it to DARPA and see if they'll throw money at you.
How is that not how it works? Stop being retarded
The army put out a contract requesting a new rifle, new LMG, and a new cartridge design using a provided 6.8mm bullet.
If you come back with a careless cartridge that doesn't feed reliably, of course the army is going to tell you to fuck off. The army didn't ask for a super experimental case design that would take years to develop. That isn't what this contract is for.
If the army had asked for a contract specifically around early development of caseless ammo, then sure, submit what you have even if it doesn't feed reliably and if the army wants they can then award a contract for further development and refinement. But again, that isn't what this contract was.
>that isn't what this contract was.
Which wasn't what I said you illiterate thirdie. I'm saying caseless ammo should've been a requirement, only with a concerted effort to develop the technology will the technology mature. It's in the state it is because of lack of interest, which is a shame because it offers significant benefits if the kinks could be worked out. A massively expensive shift to a new cartridge and a new platform should yield significant benefits, this is a sidegrade at best.
That's not exactly correct.
The LSAT program looked at both polymer cases and caseless. There were some initial issues with caseless, because Nobel had lost a lot of their old G11 documentation and most of the people who knew anything had retired. The LSAT team was eventually able to get most of the problems solved and enough ammo was made for testing purposes.
However, at the end of the day, polymer cases were considered a very low-risk option that would achieve like 80% of the weight savings that caseless promised. Because LSAT was all about practicality back then, they down-selected caseless at the end of the program, which led into the next program (CTSAS).
Should have gone with the .270 British back in ye olde days.
Some generals got bribed
just imagine some bizarro alternate timeline where the LSAT rifle became a success and your average rifleman now has more the triple the ammo than a guy carrying a battle rifle.
When Islamic State mercs started showing up plates in the Afghani mountains and mogging marines with full power gun emplacements and battle rifles from outside 300m it revealed that the AR15 was really only good for shooting witnesses and lightly armed poorly trained unarmored threats inside 300m.
> t. ghost of Jim Schatz, HK sales rep.
What can we do to help you rest in peace, spirit?
Because they didn't choose the best program
>Ultralight MG with no quick change barrel
>Chambered for a pissin' hot magnum round
>Made with Sig™ QC
Can't wait to see what a piece of shit these things turn out to be once they're in wide use.
How often do you think M249 barrels get quick changed?
You generally don't carry enough ammo to warrant changing the barrel, and if you're somewhere with LOADS of ammo stocked up, you probably have M240s with quick change barrels for a proper GPMG role.
an LMG really shouldn't need a quick change barrel unless shit has hit the fan and in that event you're probably fucked even if you had that quick change barrel.
>"Bro you're not even supposed to use it like a machine gun if you do you're probably gonna die anyway so no need for extra barrel bro"
It's an LMG and you'll be carrying less than 300 rounds for it.
Oh great, you can fire it for a full 30-45 seconds, then change your barrel for the rest of your bullets, oh wait, there are no more bullets, you shot them all already.
Good thing you carried that 5lbs quick change barrel though.
>FOB in Eastern Europe
>soviet-tier tactics throw waves at your base
>all hands on deck
>shooting all day long
>o wait nvm your barrel melted after 3 boxes from shooting piss hot loads
>can't change it because lol why do we need to?
Honestly seems fucking retarded idk why you're trying to defend it. Being able to have a LMG that you can move around is nice so why the fuck would you not want to have the ability for longer field longevity? Instead of having a few out and about to use for suppressive fire or whatever you'll have to think about getting another gun out there to do the job because you can't change the fucking barrel on the SIG, so that extra 5lb barrel you could've had just turned into an extra 40 lbs at least plus another man or two needed to wield that GPMG.
moron if you're holding the line with a fucking LMG shit has hit the fan and you're fucked regardless of a quick change barrel.
You should be using your perimeter GPMGs and vehicle mounted MGs and auto cannons, not a fucking LMG.
An LMG is NOT intended to be a GPMG just smaller.
Either way you lose the ability for suppressive fire which is fucking retarded.
>Either way you lose the ability for suppressive fire which is fucking retarded.
its 1:1 the identical nafo cope about their utter and complete lack of shells/ammunition
>we..wee.....were just more ACCURATE! yah thats it! we dont need more ammo, because we will simply hit them with the few rounds we have, and wont need more!
nafo war planning is absolutely hilarious in practice, cannot wait to see it in demonstration
How do you morons manage not to have an existential crisis when you know you're failing against Ukraine and NATO hasn't even shown up to the party yet? Like you realize if this is how russia performs against Ukraine, they'd get curb stomped the moment NATO unleashes F-35s and JASSM spam.
ha yah, the only reason the US is holding back with fancy military gear, and instead just decided to de-militarize euroope and shatter the US banking system to throw $hundreds of billions of dollars at ukraineshit, is well, because Russia is stupid and 'we' havent even BEGUN to try yet!
yes, Russia is using the full might of its military, and still failing to defeat lil ol ukraine!
on the brightside,
youre either in poland or US military,
so the odds of you being violently killed luckely remain high
Lmao yeah we get to send our old shit to Ukraine to kill russians at the cost of NO US lives, and we then buy new equipment to replace the old shit with so If/when we DO need to come curb stomp you slugs, we'll have brand new shit you couldn't even dream of getting in russia.
>nafo war planning is absolutely hilarious in practice, cannot wait to see it in demonstration
Desert Storm was done with what would mostly be antiques today.
>the diversity rifle that shoots itself™!
lmfao, its going to be an embarrassment, that quietly gets forgotten, like the SCAR
ive seen like 3 or 4 iterations of the
>le next gen assault rifle battle buddy!
im only in my mid 30's
its like every x-amount of years, this happens, regardless of whatever the actual 'war-climate' around the world is