Which one is actually better at stopping a hoodie from jacking your wallet while you're pumping 87 octane at 2AM, regardless of the caliber?

Which one is actually better at stopping a hoodie from jacking your wallet while you're pumping 87 octane at 2AM, regardless of the caliber?

250 Piece Survival Gear First Aid Kit

LifeStraw Water Filter for Hiking and Preparedness

250 Piece Survival Gear First Aid Kit

  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    whatever one you can hit with

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      They'll both do fine. I carry the XDs because in my neck of the woods I think max pen is better and I'm more concerned about bears, and I like lead free with my suppressors. But as and

      Whichever one strikes his CNS or crucial location in hip bones.

      say with a handgun you're drilling holes and that's it, both meet 12+" of pen criteria, if you can shoot reasonably well and dump into them both will be fine.

      The only real differentiator is some guns don't like hollow points. If so XD might be better. But you can only find that out by actually shooting them both.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This

      Get a Glock17 with an mag extension. ~20 chances to not miss a relatively strong round is the best insurance I can think of

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Whichever one strikes his CNS or crucial location in hip bones.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I too always aim for the testicles

      whatever one you can hit with

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    My gangbanging unc took a hollowpoint to the face. It got stopped by his jaw bone lmao

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Which one is actually better at stopping a hoodie from jacking your wallet while you're pumping 87 octane at 2AM, regardless of the caliber?
    Does this sort of thing happen often where you're from?
    I'm not sure I've ever seen a 'hoodie', let alone been threatened by one.
    Perhaps if you were to tell us about the last time you encountered a 'hoodie' it would help people in first world countries understand.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Hoodie, someone with a hood over their face. Quit being a moron and frick off

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Hoodie, as in someone from the 'hood, the neighborhood. A basketball American.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Lmao bro stood on buisness and the sucker punching roach couldnt handle an ass beating

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >egocheck someone by walking into them
            >throw fists when they react
            >get shot
            homie had it coming.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >Ego check
              >The Black person is literally standing in the middle of the only walkway like a complete fricking gay

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >never heard of the words "excuse me"
                anon had no parents

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Wait for the end…

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Wtf did orange trunks successfully play dead

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              The best play dead you’ll ever see

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Actual smartest black man in NYC

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Hey that could not have happened NYC has super strict gunlaws that make it impossible to have guns.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Saw (2004)

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Quit being a moron and frick off
          Oof.
          [...]

          You're both wrong. Just because you've assigned it a new meaning doesn't change its original definition. Calling someone from the 'hood' a hoodie is both cringe and moronic

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >sucker punch someone for bumping into you
          >lose the fight you started
          >come back with a gun
          why do these hoods embody small dick energy so well?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Quit being a moron and frick off
        Oof.

        Hoodie, as in someone from the 'hood, the neighborhood. A basketball American.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Listen anon we just want to grip a gun while we pump gas

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        finally, some honesty

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >black people? robbing in first world countries?!
      >absurd i tell you!

      fricking moron

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        It doesn't happen as often as you'd like to think. It's literally one of the safest times to be alive in the US. Violent crime is down exponentially from the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

        You're like one of those eternally-frightened millennial anti-natals who won't have kids because they "fear for the future" when it's literally the best time to be alive in history. Lmao, grow up.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >black people? robbing in first world countries?!
          >absurd i tell you!

          fricking moron

          >Which one is actually better at stopping a hoodie from jacking your wallet while you're pumping 87 octane at 2AM, regardless of the caliber?
          Does this sort of thing happen often where you're from?
          I'm not sure I've ever seen a 'hoodie', let alone been threatened by one.
          Perhaps if you were to tell us about the last time you encountered a 'hoodie' it would help people in first world countries understand.

          The violence in the United states is hyper concentrated geographically to a degree that is almost impossible to exaggerate.
          Something like 90% of the violence in America happens in 1% of it's postal codes.

          That said, it's going to get a lot more violent in our lifetimes, but that's the kind of violence a rifle is the only choice for, not this or that pistol cartridge.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >t. redditor

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      t.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      HOODIES could be here

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        shutcho cracka ass up punk

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          PROFILED.COM

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Oh frick off c**t. You're an urbanite from a coastal city, so you know goddamned well what he is implying. You went a little too far with your agitprop this time, probably should just abandoned thread and take on a different persona.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >I'm not sure I've ever seen a 'hoodie', let alone been threatened by one.

      I'm envious of you.

      1: Had a hoodie try and pull a knife on me while I was waiting for the bus. Managed to trap his hand in his pocket so he couldn't get it out and fought him off. He ran, I called the cops, they showed up 25 minutes later.

      2: Had a hoodie kick the door into my house at 2pm and barge in. Grabbed a knife in the kitchen, he had his knife, we went at it. He got cut, I didn't. Blood trail out of my yard, down the street. Cops showed up 40 mins later, they didn't try and look for him because "he's probably inside somewhere by now." Never heard back from them.

      3: Got jumped by three hoodies and pistol whipped coming home from work. This one is partially my fault, the second I saw them an alarm went off in my head, I knew something was wrong and didn't trust my gut. Got busted up, cops wouldn't let me leave until some tech came and took pics of my face. Was there for 3 fricking hours just waiting. Never got a call back from the cops.

      Never again. My state finally relaxed their CCL laws, I moved to a better area and got prepared, and I trust my instincts every time now. Haven't had any issues in years. All hoodies must hang.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Frick off with this moronic California take. You're in more danger of them then you'll ever know and when they approach you, you'll extend your hand to greet them and be stabbed in self defense.

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The 'extreme penetrator' is a meme, right?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >The 'extreme penetrator' is a meme, right?
      No? It's a monolithic that goes very fast, it definitely pens extremely well in all testing. The flutes don't do much but neither do petals, both do a little work and there's nothing physically weird about them.

      You might be thinking of those RIP rounds, those were definitely meme and tested like shit. That whole idea is moronic. The Liberty hyper fast rounds are arguably meme, though you could be generous and say "special purpose" I suppose. Other than that not much going on in handgun rounds.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      No, those screwdriver types are neat as frick. They don't require expansion to work so they have no hole that can be plugged. I'm currently carrying Underwood 67gr 9mm that rips at 1,700fps+ out of a full size handgun and like 1,650 from a 3 in barrel. All testing I've seen has been pretty impressive. I've seen it go through plywood and straight into a gel block with all the denim layer bullshit on it and it didn't care about the plywood at all. Still pens to around 14-16in or so.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        how are they innovative or neat if they're wounding mechanism is essential just penetration? they don't fragment or expand or tumble so what's so special?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >they don't fragment or expand or tumble so what's so special?
          none of that shit is a factor in handgun bullets
          >inb4 5.7

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >expansion
            >none of that shit is a factor in handgun bullets
            ever heard of hollow points?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          The flutes cause some pretty good disruption at those speeds on par with a hollowpoint if you care, but penetration and shot placement is what matters most anyways. The flutes are to keep overpenning from happening, the extra flesh damage is a byproduct. They're designed to dump energy and not just poke a hole without slowing down.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The flutes are to keep overpenning from happening
            Never heard this one before and it doesn't line up with testing at all. The flutes increase the damage somewhat, and of course they cut weight to make the things go faster which increases their effect. But XDs penetrate very far and very well, much more strongly then HPs, and well beyond the 18" gel standard. I personally consider "overpen" to be a complete meme, and yeah I'm biased by living in a rural area but I think it's usually a meme even in urban ones.

            But if one is really concerned about that, XDs are definitely the wrong choice from the gel testing I watched. I carry them because they pen more.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              XDs and XPs are very different animals, and the XDs actually come in two separate weight classes under the same name, which is super annoying.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >XDs and XPs are very different animals
                Are they? Doesn't look like 115gr@1300fps is that different from 90gr@1550fps in quick tests I looked at. The 115gr technically goes somewhat farther, but both are well over 20" of gel pen, so IRL I don't think it really matters if one goes 21 and the other 28 or whatever, it's a lot of pen either way.

                I could believe the 68gr ones act a little different because that's getting very light but the other two, at <10yd? Dunno. Seem like solid high pen ammo either way.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Also I did see a few videos that went LARGER WOUND CAVITY OMG on one or the other which is a pile of horse manure, temp bubble in gel doesn't mean shit at those velocities.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                The 9mm XDs go down all the way to somewhere in the 60gr range.

                I can't speak to the specifics of their terminal ballistics, but 6X grains and 115 grains are far enough apart that I wouldn't be surprised to see a difference.

                The super light ones, under the right circumstances, have been known to punch through IIIA panels, but it's not something consistent enough that I'd want to rely on it if that was something I really needed a pistol to do.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              > But XDs penetrate very far and very well,
              No you’re thinking of the extreme penetrators. The defenders don’t penetrate that much because they are so light. They are good for barriers though. Both types are

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Look at the statistics
                >Amount of people shot and killed by hollow points
                1/10
                >Amount of people shot and killed by fmj/monolithic
                8/10

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Anecdotal because criminals aren't buying expensive hollow points

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Havent you seen yt shorts? They're packing xtreme defenders/penetrators now

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                What does that have to do with my post?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >No you’re thinking of the extreme penetrators.
                No. I am absolutely thinking of the defenders. This is what I carry, the 90gr +p+:

                Every other test I see is like that, and the single time I got a chance to try myself it also matched that. They pen 18-20", and do well vs clothes and barriers.

                Will the heavier ones do even better? Sure, that'd make sense. But I don't see anything objectionable there in terms of performance.
                >The defenders don’t penetrate that much because they are so light
                You'll need to point to some examples. I can believe it for the 68gr but I don't know about those, they didn't exist when I was trying different stuff out. The only hyperfast light ones I tried were the old liberty ones and those really did seem too specialized to me.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >They're designed to dump energy
            your opinion has been discarded, go read more on terminal ballistics

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Suck my dick and balls, that's exactly why they're there.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          The fluid jets they generate does about as much or the same as hollow point petals, ie, very little.

          >expansion
          >none of that shit is a factor in handgun bullets
          ever heard of hollow points?

          HPs don't technically make zero difference, but they don't make much either. Handgun rounds are still just hole punchers. Yeah there's a somewhat larger hole, but that's not going to help if you're much off a vital point. You still need to train enough to do decent groups, and everything has so many rounds on tap these days.

          I mean, I have zero issue with anyone picking any quality EDC ammo, but everything is playing at the margins with minor tradeoffs. I'd personally rather prioritize max penetration/barrier blindness and mildly lower recoil, but that's just specific to where I am and I don't think good 'ol speer gold dots are somehow a bad choice or any stupid shit like that either.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Supposedly fluted bullets cause more tissue tearing in their path because of the way the flesh and blood is shunted out of the way like a snowplow. Big game hunters have claimed that for a long time, anyway, but I never put stock in hearsay.

          For me it's enough to know the bullet will punch straight through a man at any angle, regardless of any bones it hits, at whatever angle, even in a caliber like .380.
          Monolithic solids penetrate further and straighter.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Big game hunters have claimed that for a long time
            I assume big game hunters are using rifles. At rifle velocities this entire discussion changes, if you pen flesh at >2500fps with the kinds of grain they have that's a different potential set off effects. We're talking handguns though where even muzzle velocity reaching just 2000fps is insanely unusual and has big tradeoffs. At the sort of 1000-1700 range this all falls into yeah doesn't make much difference.
            >Monolithic solids penetrate further and straighter.
            Yep this is it for me, though I'm more concerned with bears then people but the logic applies even more.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Big game hunters have been using all kinds of designs (including similar ones to the XP) of copper or brass solids for a hundred years or more.
      They were never that popular in America, but very popular with Safari hunters.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >safari hunters
        Do yoh understand why penetrating through a bunch of thick layers of flesh and bone to reach vital organs on, say, a charging water buffalo would be exactly what makes it inappropriate for use as self-defense ammo against a human attacker?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          No.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      underwood extreme penetrators are a meme but not for the reason you might expect
      they do penetrate far more than pretty much any conventional FMJ rounds on the market, but testing (youtube, for what it's worth) has shown that they're actually worse at penetrating -body armor- than the 68 gr +P "xtreme defender" rounds that underwood also sells, which are capable of penetrating IIIA body armor when fired out of a full sized handgun while also demonstrating (IMO) superior ballistics and wound capability, xtreme penetrator rounds cannot penetrate IIIA armor from what i've seen
      so they technically do their job, but the company that sells them also sells what's basically a superior alternative that they don't advertise at all

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Yeah but genuine question: have there been literally any cases of some civilian having to do self defense vs IIIA armor, like, ever? Let alone it being common. I wouldn't judge it based on that.

        I will say I lean towards the light ones anyway, just because if you have two loads with adequate pen and all else being equal might as well go for the one that also has lower recoil, less recoil is always better if it doesn't hurt ballistics. And losing velocity quicker due to being light doesn't matter at self defense range. But I'm not worried about armor, and if someone was really wearing armor crimes expecting to get shot maybe they'd be wearing at least high density poly plate or something. 68gr XDs don't help at that point, or anything else in any handgun round except tungsten stuff we aren't allowed to buy. If they're wearing rifle plate you lose unless you shoot them somewhere else like in the balls or face.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Yeah but genuine question: have there been literally any cases of some civilian having to do self defense vs IIIA armor, like, ever?
          The most powerful and dangerous gang in America makes all its members wear IIIA body armor every day.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            That doesn't answer my question. Do we have recorded incidents of civvies needing to defend itself against whatever gang you're talking about and failing to do so due to no ap load? The measure here is dissuading an attacker. Even if I had on IIIA chest, I still wouldn't want to get mag dumped at 5yd, and the odds of having something disabling hit even if it's not immediate death aren't nothing at that range.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >whatever gang you're talking about
              he was being cheeky; he's talking about cops

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Oh, honestly thought he had some mexican gang in mind or something. If that's what he meant though it's less "cheeky" and more "totally moronic".

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                You are infinitely more likely to get into an altercation with cops than anyone else.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                More likely, probably, but not 'infinitely'. That would mean it's effectively impossible to end up fighting anyone but a cop.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >You are infinitely more likely to get into an altercation with cops than anyone else.
                No, not even remotely. Very, very few normal citizens ever get in "altercations" with the cops, or even encounters period. At most it might be a speeding ticket, not that I've had one of those in 27 years either. And then you just act normal and pay your ticket or depending go to court and that's it.

                What you're talking about is apparently shooting the cops, since that is the only way taking about IIIA pen makes any sense. Which is fricking moronic and means your life is 99.9% over if you do it. In a normal self defense situation vs a criminal shooting them (and MAYBE they have a partner) is the end of the matter, after that you call law enforcement and go through some level of rigamarole and that's it. If you shoot a cop it summons infinite other cops and then more advanced stuff and you surrender or die.

                Thinking some different load means defeating the US government is gay fantasy larp for criminals.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >t. gigabootlicker

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Thinking some different load means defeating the US government is gay fantasy larp for criminals.
                Post gun with timestamp.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >If that's what he meant though it's less "cheeky" and more "totally moronic".
                Post your gun bootlicker.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                I’m far more worried about badgeBlack folk knocking down my door at 2am for no reason than actual Black folk attempting it.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I think the Buffalo supermarket shooter had IIIA. Not positive though.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          jewelry store robbery
          mass shootings

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        > which are capable of penetrating IIIA body armor when fired out of a full sized handgun
        Not every IIIA armor is the same but I’ve seen videos of a G26 going through. You don’t even need a full sized pistol if you have the +P going ~1700fps. I’ve shot through a IIIA panel with a G19 and Hellcat with my handloads at about 5-7 yards. I don’t have proof and I was using a cheaper AR500 armor IIIA panel so take that how you will.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >The 'extreme penetrator' is a meme, right?
      Why don't you ask your mother?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Yes. unless you get them above 2000 fps the extra velocity is doing frick all for wound width, and the extra penetration isn't necessary over good hollow points.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        The one that's placed better.

        >2024
        >Still quoting the 2000fps + magic number
        moron alert

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >2024
          >offering no counterpoint to well known terminal ballistics research

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >well known terminal ballistics research
            You can find images of deer hit with .45-70 that left a fist-sized hole at 1800 fps.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              I already tried anon. He’s insisting a .45 ACP FMJ will have the same permanent wound cavity.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Kneel.

        The one that's placed better.

        >2024
        >Still quoting the 2000fps + magic number
        moron alert

        KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLL

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Considering underwood's own marketing shows them using synthetic ballistics gel, I just assume the ammo is shit. I'd be interested to see what the 9x25 Dillon does in organic gel/ real tissue.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >his only cope about the ammo is something that’s not even ammo related
            Please post any underwood loading that’s not close to the advertised fps with a normal length barrel

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >organic gel/ real tissue
            The reason bone gelatin is preferred is because, if properly conditioned and calibrated, it conforms to FBI test protocols allowing for comparisons between similar tests on known good loads, not because it's a better test medium or magically tells you anything about performance in meat. All gel is a shit medium, but it's really easy to maintain consistency. Real tissue is shit for consistency.
            If Underwood uses another gel in the same conditions for each firing, you can use that to compare their loadings just as well as anything else. You just can't compare it to e.g. a 9mm Silvertip from 1979.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              No, calibrated 10% organic ballistics gel is a better test medium. Not only has it been proven to be extremely similar to what you'll see in real tissue, synthetic gels often vary in performance from lot to lot, causing under/over expansion and fricking with penetration depths. While expansion isn't a problem with non expanding solids, using mediums that the industry has already concluded isn't good enough to replace the real thing while trying to market itself as such, does not give me confidence that it does what they say it will.

              >he thinks .45-70 doesn’t cause more damage than a .45 acp
              Lol. Lmao even
              > When did I say you wouldn't get box velocities?
              When you called it shit while replying to a box of XTPs. When did XTPs become meme ammo? If the bullet isn’t shit, because it isn’t, then what else is there to criticize besides velocity?

              >he thinks .45-70 doesn’t cause more damage than a .45 acp
              Prove what I stated was wrong.
              >When you called it shit while replying to a box of XTPs. When did XTPs become meme ammo? If the bullet isn’t shit, because it isn’t, then what else is there to criticize besides velocity?
              It's an overpriced mono bullet marketed with bullshit. There is no good reason to use one for duty/self defense when ammunition that's been vetted by the FBI is available for less money.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >synthetic gels often vary in performance from lot to lot
                So does gelatin if you're not calibrating it, dummy. It's frick all like meat you moron. If hollow points expanded in pine boards they would have stuck with that.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >If hollow points expanded in pine boards they would have stuck with that.
                they entire point of the gel is to simulate what is seen in real tissue. No, they wouldn't.

                M8, you're thinking of the wrong bullet. XTP is pretty old jhp design that relies on the older mushrooming shape for expansion instead of petals and is made of lead. It's considered budget by most. They've got a good following because every gun seems to feed that cone shaped bullet reliably, so reliably that they make an even cheaper variant called 'HAP'(?) That doesn't expand for people shooting tournaments needing reliable bulk in that shape. For people who hunt they've proven they expand reliably on fur, they don't over-expand (normally just 1.5x so maintains good penetration), and they can be driven pretty hard without breaking up.
                Somewhat related, for guys who are handloading, it's worth looking into vcrowns now if you're trying to make self defense ammunition. If you really want cheap bulk jhp the berry ONLY 147gr at 1000 fps is also incredible.

                You're right, I'm aware of the Hornady bullet but I thought they were abbreviating their Xtreme Penetrator loading, which is the load the anon was initially asking about, as XTP.

                > Prove what I stated was wrong.
                Prove what you stated is right. Just to clarify, you are saying a .45 acp FMJ does just as much damage is a FN .45-70. All those people who shot bison with Springfield trapdoors should have stuck with 1873 Winchesters instead?
                >doesn’t even know what an XTP is
                You can google that if you didn’t know. But this proves I’m right and you are an idiot.

                >well known terminal ballistics research
                You can find images of deer hit with .45-70 that left a fist-sized hole at 1800 fps.

                I said exactly what I wrote. Non-expanding low velocity 45-70 is just boring holes, as is .45 ACP.
                >Assuming the parameters you noted, somewhere around 2000 fps or so, the TC starts getting large enough to produce significant stretch injuries, but keep in mind it is a continuum. TC also depends on the size of the projectile--some slower expanding .45-70 and .44 Mag loads, as well as 12 ga slugs can also create an impressive amount of stretch damage at lower velocities
                >t.DocGKR, https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-131098.html
                Non expanding, 1350 fps 45-70 loads are not that. Nor is a non expanding load in a service pistol chambering.
                > All those people who shot bison with Springfield trapdoors should have stuck with 1873 Winchesters instead
                Do you think that 44-40 and 45-70 loads were FMJ in 1873? You're aware I already stated 45-70 will penetrate deeper right?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >simulate what is seen in real tissue
                lmao no. That's what scientistic brainlets assume, probably including whoever thought it up in the first place. It's not what actually happens.
                Less internet, more shooting. One day you might even load an XTP.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents.
                Yeah.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                > can also create an impressive amount of stretch damage at lower velocities
                It’s like you didn’t even read what you posted
                >You're aware I already stated 45-70 will penetrate deeper right?
                I’m not asking about penetration. Either load easily passes through a human so penetration is moot.

                Post guns. I don’t believe you own any.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >It’s like you didn’t even read what you posted
                you are illiterate.
                >asks about bison hunters
                >I’m not asking about penetration. Either load easily passes through a human so penetration is moot.
                You are painfully stupid. Do you wake up scared and confused until your handlers soothe you?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Why didn't you post guns anon? You do own them right? Someone who thinks a .45 ACP FMJ and a .45-70 FN cause the same damage and someone who doesn't know what a Hornady XTP is obviously knows guns and owns them. Right?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Still haven’t found your gun anon? Shocking I say, shocking.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Pictures of my guns won't make you any less moronic, anon.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >XTP
                >mono bullet
                Are you OK, moron?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                M8, you're thinking of the wrong bullet. XTP is pretty old jhp design that relies on the older mushrooming shape for expansion instead of petals and is made of lead. It's considered budget by most. They've got a good following because every gun seems to feed that cone shaped bullet reliably, so reliably that they make an even cheaper variant called 'HAP'(?) That doesn't expand for people shooting tournaments needing reliable bulk in that shape. For people who hunt they've proven they expand reliably on fur, they don't over-expand (normally just 1.5x so maintains good penetration), and they can be driven pretty hard without breaking up.
                Somewhat related, for guys who are handloading, it's worth looking into vcrowns now if you're trying to make self defense ammunition. If you really want cheap bulk jhp the berry ONLY 147gr at 1000 fps is also incredible.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                > Prove what I stated was wrong.
                Prove what you stated is right. Just to clarify, you are saying a .45 acp FMJ does just as much damage is a FN .45-70. All those people who shot bison with Springfield trapdoors should have stuck with 1873 Winchesters instead?
                >doesn’t even know what an XTP is
                You can google that if you didn’t know. But this proves I’m right and you are an idiot.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        So does a blackpowder spec .45-70 of 405gr at 1350 do no more damage than a .45 acp at 850fps? They are the same diameter and both well below 2000fps. How does a .455 webley at 600fps stack up?
        >inb4 .006” diameter difference matters

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          45-70 will have the potential to do more tissue damage given the projectiles available for it. assuming they're all using non expanding projectiles, the permanent width will be similar, with 45-70 penetrating the deepest, and the Webley will penetrate the least.

          >his only cope about the ammo is something that’s not even ammo related
          Please post any underwood loading that’s not close to the advertised fps with a normal length barrel

          >Developing and testing projectiles with a material that isn't a proper tissue stimulant could never effect the outcome of the product
          It's meme ammo. When did I say you wouldn't get box velocities?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >he thinks .45-70 doesn’t cause more damage than a .45 acp
            Lol. Lmao even
            > When did I say you wouldn't get box velocities?
            When you called it shit while replying to a box of XTPs. When did XTPs become meme ammo? If the bullet isn’t shit, because it isn’t, then what else is there to criticize besides velocity?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        https://i.imgur.com/MiVNzb1.jpeg

        Kneel.

        [...]
        KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLL

        you must kneel, to 2600 FPS

        turn the angel dust tweaker's shoulder into mince meat

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Thunderzap out of the Big Plastic would break mach 3 easily.
          Big Plastic wins again.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            it literally has the range of a spring airsoft gun, at 100 yards it has the force of an airsoft gun

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >if you shoot anyone with this send us pics!
          fricking based.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I feel like it needs a metal core or base or something for some weight. You lose 15% of your velocity at only 7 yards. What happens by 15 or 20? I realize 99% of pistol shootings aren’t that far away but still I’d like more velocity retention.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >unless you get them above 2000 fps the extra velocity is doing frick all for wound width
        you have NO idea what you're talking about, these are small pistol rounds, if you send them at 2k fps... you wont be able to determine what happened

        gel doesn't replicate btw, you don't know how to translate gel data do you?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I'm sure you'll show us how.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      For you

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The normal petal hollow points. Remember to shoot your attacker more than once.

    Also you can always go full boomer and alternate FMJ with hollow point. Don't forget to rack the slide for intimidation.

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    xD

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    anon, you're using Phillips boolits.
    Use safety boolits, they're more better

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    the cope in this thread is extreme, pun intended.
    >I didn't care about expansion anyway
    hehe

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I honestly don’t. Or not enough to care. I usually carry a LCP so it’s FMJ anyways. If I’m ok with that, why would I not be ok with 68gr XDs in my 9mm? I like being able to beat soft armor more than JHP expansion.

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Why not spray the gasoline on them?

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    Or like a dumb monkey he just wasn't aware of the 3D space he was occupying.
    The vast majority of people are either too dumb or too unobservant to genuinely understand how their presence in a space relates to both the space and people around them.

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    There is no verifiable evidence that supports any one kind of projectile being more effective at stopping an attacker than a different kind of bullet from the same gun. I can understand that people would want a hollow point bullet to avoid overpenetration, but despite decades of common use, there is nothing more than theoretical debates about wound channels in gelatin to support the idea that expanding bullets will more effectively stop an attacker.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This is only because there isn't an ethical way to test and/or much attempt to standardize shooting results and documentation.
      1) You can destroy measurably more tissue with X than with Y bullet. That suggests faster blood loss.
      2) If you really need to see results for yourself you can varmint hunt with pistol calibers using fmj versus jhp to prove a trend. Start with the most extreme differences, say a 9mm fmj from a pcc versus a 9mm frangible that only gets 8" of penetration. The frangible will break up and destroy more tissue because of the greater surface area.
      >inb4 someone uses a bad faith jhp like a 147gr xtp for shooting 3" thick bunny rabbits and there is no time to expand let alone enough mass to initiate expansion.

      Even in big game hunting where everyone uses expanding ammunition you can see differences. Copper expanding monos frequently get shit on because they don't kill as fast as a lot of lead bullets. It's not because the copper doesn't expand, sometimes in gel they expand the same amount. It's more likely because the front half of the projectile isn't fragmenting off creating more frontal surface area to disrupt tissue like a lot of lead bullets. Before anyone gets defensive about their copper monos, I do like them, they can kill quickly with good placement, and I respect the massive advantage of no lead in the meat to ruin your brain with.

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >you're pumping 87 octane at 2AM

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Was hoping one of the homeboys would jump in the van, fire a shot, and roman candle their way down the road.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Fun Fact: In the US, you can be sentenced to 10 years in jail and forced to pay a $250,000 fine for doing this, thanks to the EPA.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I'm pretty sure any judge would see that video and opt not to let the EPA assrape him considering he was getting cultural enriched, anon.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I want to see the next 3 minutes when they immediately lit up after driving away

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >all that gas
      still cheaper than if he shot a couple of them with his 5.7

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    in 9mm go hollow points but pick one with good penetration

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      > in 9mm go hollow points but pick one with good penetration
      Thanks for the info fren, didn’t know that.

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    If you live in the hood you're likely also a Black person and deserve to die.

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I didn't know some guns could also be used as screwdrivers.

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Not posting the spiciest tokerev ngm

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Interesting... details? Looks like a hollowed out fmj projectile (orinal tok projo flipped around?) set backwards with a .22lr case stuffed into it. .22 short maybe?

      https://i.imgur.com/LhdYpIh.jpeg

      Which one is actually better at stopping a hoodie from jacking your wallet while you're pumping 87 octane at 2AM, regardless of the caliber?

      Hoodoes are starting to wear gear, chest rigs and the like. I'm starting to carry projectiles that are more penetration focused because of that. Been considering getting a local cnc shop to make some of the 90grn xp projectiles out of aluminum stock (might do with a couple thou" shoulder to prevent setback and act as the primary bearing surface/gas check, while minimizng the bearing surface length to reduce bearing wear on the barrel. They'd be like 35-40 gr in weight. Might hollow them out and add a small lead slug backed up with polyurethane plug so i don't have to worry about the 25/75 ap rule to get them back around 45-60gr. Al would be much harder/deformation resistant than copper.

      https://i.imgur.com/zvfDPPg.jpeg

      anon, you're using Phillips boolits.
      Use safety boolits, they're more better

      Not going with the THV inspired non-hp design.
      >picrel

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Just a drilled out AK bullet with a nailgun charge glued in. If it’s 123 grain it ends up being a 70gr proj. I’ve been using my normal wst ball powder load that I use for the standard 85 grain bullet. So that’s 5.5grain of powder gets it going 1350fps. I’m just single loading cartridges so far. I think a ramp is a bad idea.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Might hollow them out and add a small lead slug backed up with polyurethane plug so i don't have to worry about the 25/75 ap rule to get them back around 45-60gr.
        What rule are you talking about?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Federal AP pistol ammo rule. There's two basic design features that resultnin a projectile being considered a restricted AP round. The first is a series of materials (iron, iron alloys, beryllium copper, tungsten, depelted uranium, brass and bronze alloys), the other is if the projectile is larger than .22 cal if the jacket is greater than/equal to 25% of the total projectile mass. So if the core is two-piece, e.g. a small lead slug backed up by a plug material, the core is two pieces, and also doesn't leave as large a hollow cavity in the base.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >The first is a series of materials (iron, iron alloys, beryllium copper, tungsten, depelted uranium, brass and bronze alloys)
            Which doesn't apply to your idea

            >the other is if the projectile is larger than .22 cal if the jacket is greater than/equal to 25% of the total projectile mass.
            Which also doesn't apply.

            You described a solid Aluminum projectile. Even if you jacketed it, it STILL wouldn't apply.

            So what the hell are we talking about here?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              The 2nd part does. If it's an XP profile, with a hollow base cavity like the THV projectile. Unless I can argue that say a .075" through hole to the cavity counts as not fully jacketed. I would argue thats exactly what it means, but i'm sure some gay at the atf would be slobbering at the chops to argue otherwise.

              >other is if the projectile is larger than .22 cal if the jacket is greater than/equal to 25% of the total projectile mass.
              That's particularly a fully jacketed projectile. As the other anon said, a monolithic bullet is in no danger of violating it, but supposing you wanted to make, let's say, an aluminum-core, copper-jacket design that was otherwise in danger of violating it -- just make it half-jacketed with the core sticking out the tip, and the problem goes away.

              It's weird how people focus on that part of the definition, when it's basically never an issue.

              I was also thinking of getting some libra snail type projectiles made as well out of aluminum, and moly coating them to reduce friction. I'd rather do the xp/xd profile however. Any idea how to sleeve something using few-thou thick copper sheet?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >If it's an XP profile, with a hollow base cavity like the THV projectile
                Black person an XP is monolithic. You described a solid one metal bullet and then said "I'm not allowed to use two metals, better add lead to it!" What in the frick are you taking about.

                for frick's sake just draw a picture of what you're saying and where you think the two DIFFERENT metals go that would violate the 25% rule would go, and why you think putting lead in it changes that.

                You're not making any sense.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                COME BACK AND DRAW ME A PICTURE YOUR DESCRIPTION DIDNT MAKE SENSE IT'S DRIVING ME FRICKING NUTS

                Goddam son. No pics. Refer to image search of your choice and use your imagination. I want to -Start- with an aluminum monolithic copy of an XD/XP projo. Al is much less dense than copper, but harder. I want harder, but can't use brass/bronze etc. So, Al. But I need yo increase the projectile weight. So I will turn a hollow cavity in the base, like that of a THV monolithic, in order to add a small amount of low density material, and then replace it with a smaller chunk of high density mat'l. The issue is if the core mat'l is visibly enclosed to the front of the projo, i have to worry about the 25/75 rule. Hence my comment here

                The 2nd part does. If it's an XP profile, with a hollow base cavity like the THV projectile. Unless I can argue that say a .075" through hole to the cavity counts as not fully jacketed. I would argue thats exactly what it means, but i'm sure some gay at the atf would be slobbering at the chops to argue otherwise.
                [...]
                I was also thinking of getting some libra snail type projectiles made as well out of aluminum, and moly coating them to reduce friction. I'd rather do the xp/xd profile however. Any idea how to sleeve something using few-thou thick copper sheet?

                about drilling a small through hole and thus considering it "not fully jacketed"
                Tldr- moron anon wants to overcomplicate things and waste money for negligible benefit.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >I want to make an aluminum XP
                so far so good
                >because of the advantages Aluminum would have in hardness and speed
                Right, right
                >But I'm afraid this solid aluminum projectile would be illegal because it's made of two metals
                What?
                >So I'm going to add a second metal to it.
                Fricking WHY

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                COME BACK AND DRAW ME A PICTURE YOUR DESCRIPTION DIDNT MAKE SENSE IT'S DRIVING ME FRICKING NUTS

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >other is if the projectile is larger than .22 cal if the jacket is greater than/equal to 25% of the total projectile mass.
            That's particularly a fully jacketed projectile. As the other anon said, a monolithic bullet is in no danger of violating it, but supposing you wanted to make, let's say, an aluminum-core, copper-jacket design that was otherwise in danger of violating it -- just make it half-jacketed with the core sticking out the tip, and the problem goes away.

            It's weird how people focus on that part of the definition, when it's basically never an issue.

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >needing to get gas at 2am
    >not having gotten it the hundreds of opportunities earlier

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I heard the solution to living in the city is just do everything early in the morning be home by 8am and they aren’t up yet so it’s safe. I make sure I’m home from my weekly tendie run no later than 0730

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >being afraid of the dark
        what shithole do you live in, east st louis?

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    if you put 5 to 10 rounds under 2 seconds to the guy it will be dead no matter what type of ammo you are using. Exept blanks

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The one you land a CNS hit with.

  21. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >87 octane
    lol wut
    What sort of third world shithole is this?

  22. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    what about frangible ammo ?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >what about frangible ammo ?
      Super fun to train with, and heavier frangible has actually surprised me in its utility as a vermin round. I was able to shoot a groundhog indoors in a basement for example, 110gr speer took it down in one shot and I had zero concerns if I missed or about overpen then ricochets even in such a small animal.

      But while as a last resort I'd use it and I sure wouldn't want to be shot by one, and the wound would be insanely nasty, the whole point is it has very minimal pen. It's not a defense round at all.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Note talking handguns here. I have some frangible 308 too and I have no doubts that would kill someone unarmored at close range. But so would any other rifle round, that's a whole different class.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >It's not a defense round at all.
        interresting, but since in defense the agressor is usually at very close range with you, wouldn't it be just as good as a typical FMJ round ? or the probability of having contact further than expected make it pointless ?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >wouldn't it be just as good as a typical FMJ round ?
          Have you ever used it? Frangible turns into powder as soon as it hits anything hard. That's the point of it, you can shoot steel nearly point blank and have no issues. It's not anything like FMJ. That's not to say it couldn't kill someone with a luck shot but that's not the reliability I'd be looking for unless, I dunno, some sort of special situation where nothing is more important than avoiding any building penetration.

          eh

          honestly looks kinda wild
          though he didn't try it with any kinda cloth or barrier

          I know it didn't go all the way through a small ground hog, or skunks or other stuff I've used it on. I'm not sure regular gel tests are a good match for frangible. Obviously real bodies have bone and varying densities and typically at least clothing. With normal rounds that doesn't really matter much and is factored into the old FBI standard, they'll pen hard stuff, if they hit heavy bone they'll at least ricochet around and/or break it. "12-18" is supposed to take into account bad angles and statistics. Frangible is so different not sure that applies. But I'm not an expert.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Pistol frangibles are a good bit chunkier than whatever you're popping skunks with, they'll frag on sufficiently thick bone but they're going to make a hell of a mess doing it and something with a bit of give like a rib isn't going to dust them like a plate will, it's sintered metal not a Prince Rupert’s drop.
            In any case think about it, a V-Max isn't getting through a squirrel and you really don't want to catch one of those.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >Pistol frangibles are a good bit chunkier than whatever you're popping skunks with
              I'm using pistol frangibles anon, like I said. Pic related is my favorite of the last 5 years or so, though sadly it's become stupid fricking expensive for some reason. NPA stuff is also good but also expensive though contract overruns sometimes get a little cheaper if you can catch them. The lighter slower really cheapshit is at least cheap but I see a solid 10% fail out of my last batch.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Sorry, meant to add that that said you're right, seeing some gel testing has made me reevaluate a bit. But I still wouldn't use it for EDC unless there was no other choice or it was some special situation, I'm in a rural area and mostly carry due to bears. I don't see any reason not to go with gold dots or underwood. And I did say that absolutely I wouldn't want to be shot with it and it could certainly potentially kill.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                All of these problems go away when you use the normal RN version, not the fart and it disappears along with your wallet HPs or whatever cop--fleecer that is.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                If you can point me at decent 100gr frangible for <30cpr even let alone <25 unironically all ears.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Well, what you do is get in your time machine and go back about 5 years, then you buy a few thousand of the flat points and load them yourself. Bonus points if you also buy so many Murom primers you're laughing like a moron all the way through a pandemic.
                Seriously though there's a Fiocchi loading that might be cheaper. Pretty sure those are the "solids".

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        eh

        honestly looks kinda wild
        though he didn't try it with any kinda cloth or barrier

  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    7.62x51, soon to be .277 f u r y

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >thread about projectile TYPE devolves into caliber wiener riding
    typical.
    No, for you guys there's this video:

    As other anons said, gel is quite a bad representation of the human body and is ONLY meant for having a standard to compare different bullets.
    This channel's setup is still just a gel comparison, keep in mind. What he is doing is removing the initial impact shock and HP expansion to compare projectiles more accurately.

    With that said, typical single block gel tests aren't telling you the real story. That inital shock expansion in bare gel tests is nowhere close to realistic. If your adversary is wearing multiple layers of clothes, and especially if they are a heavy weight person, that initial shock is happening barely more than "skin deep" and is not what is immobilizing them.
    The penetration to a vital spot is the immobilizer, and as the vid shows all typical calibers achieve the same.

  25. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Are G9s even worth buying, or is the gimmick not going to do anything for the average joe?

  26. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >pumping 87 octane at 2AM

    Why?

  27. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >tfw no Dual Purpose rounds from Cyberpunk

  28. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    One is for screws, other is for nuts, simple as

  29. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Just use the petrol

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