When Zelensky made the announcement that his top generals had decided to reinforce Bakhmut, I was pretty shocked. I get that in the beginning, Ukraine had a great strategic position and was basically mowing down Wagner troops, but the current position seems untenable and they also have to deal with the nightmare of urban combat since Wagner has reached the city suburbs.
Why don't they pullback to another line so they aren't surrounded in 3 sides and are in a better position? The US Secretary of Defense also recommended pulling out so it's not it's some crazy vatnik opinion
Militarily there is very little justification for the maneuver
But it is possible Zelensky is engaging in maskirovka or possibly stupidity
As long as they can hold or at least still be able to withdraw when needed, there's no point in withdrawing
Remember
If they pull back, the front will just move somewhere else
Bakhmut is already a rubble
If they can still bleed the Russians there, might as well be there than fight the Russians elsewhere that will also turn into rubble
>Bakhmut is already a rubble
Surprisingly, 4000 civvies are still there. Most of them are probably pro-ru, but still.
>Most of them are probably pro-ru
Old, Soviet-era generation most likely
*Probable stupidity
Simple. To wear down the fucking Vatnik scum.
>False accusations
>Sheer idiocy and nonsense
>False claims of recession and collapse of support
>Attempt at hyperbole
Yep, it's glavset rooster time.
>But it is possible Zelensky is engaging in maskirovka
Kys retard.
Anglofags who use words like "maskirovka" and "vranyo" in any context without knowing what they mean deserve the rope.
The information we get from the front is always late and iccomplete anon. The glowies predictions change not just daily but surely by the hour, at one point it was wise to retreat but now they have supplied info that staying is more favorible. Think of the US as an expert caller
It's twenty twenty-three anon, glowies adjust their projections in real time now, no need for that "by the hour" toff
>real time
>Implying glowies are restricted by causality
They used to be able to operate outside of the normal flow of time, but ever since Russia captured 次元のハイパーフォートレス「PISKY」they have been unable to breach causality.
I'm not sure either. The town's obviously under the very real threat of encirclement. Maybe they're planning a Stalingrad. The Russians have so many of their soldiers in the town proper they left the Chechens and Donbabwe Volksturm to guard the flanks. It'd be pretty amazing if they managed a counter-encirclement. Not saying they will. I'm low key preparing myself to read some sobering news of a big defeat.
If Ukraine somehow breaks the Russian offensive at Bakhmut I honestly think they will shatter morale. I still think they will be forced to withdraw in TWO MORE WEEKS. But I am preparing several images for this contingency.
Well apparently Ukraine is capable of covert ops shenanigans that'd make Ian Flemming diamonds, so I wouldn't be surprised they have an ace up their sleeve too.
theyre capable of big publicity stunts, but im yet to see a large scale use of them with some more direct consequences
>but what about the crimean bridge?
yes this probably had a big effect on the overall operations of the russian army, but this wasnt targeted at any particular battle, THIS should be the bigger ukranian focus imo rather than the random attacks in the rusian heartland
>Western popular support is collapsing as we slide into a recession.
>Not much reason to spend money defending a dirty shithole that was never really ours, when the dollar is dying and nobody can buy a house.
Too right, my fellow American. The dollar is dying and the Yuan or possibly even the Ruble is destined to replace it. It is folly for us to try to resist destiny. Our economic sanctions against Russia have devastated our economies, and deprived us of vitally needed resources. The collapse has already begun. I estimate that in no more than 336 hours, America will be in a state of civil war.
> I estimate that in no more than 336 hours, America will be in a state of civil war.
he didn't even say anything outlandish, gay. we literally are recession-bound, and the support for billions upon billions for ukraine isn't strong, no matter how many flags you see on twitter.
>Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake
The K:D ratio for Ukraine in Bakhmut is somewhere between 5:1 to 7:1 according to Western estimates, so it makes sense to continue bleeding the RuAF to death for as long as possible. Of course, the total casualty rate is somewhat lower since Russia has no medevac capability or infantry plates to speak of, leading to a higher killed-to-wounded ratio among the mobik cannon fodder, but it's still a highly advantageous calculation for Ukraine.
I would bet one enticement is degrading Russian artillery. Ukrainians have been claiming to have destroyed a lot of Russian artillery lately and with more counter battery radars, high tech drones and Excalibur rounds the goal of Bakhmut may be to degrade Russian artillery. Not to mention the Ukrainians are so well dug in they are forced to expend a to of shells and have a large logistics chain that can be targeted.
>Ukrainians have been claiming to have destroyed a lot of Russian artillery lately and with more counter battery radars, high tech drones and Excalibur rounds the goal of Bakhmut may be to degrade Russian artillery.
Could explain the gepards at home Russia is apparently rolling out now.
>gepards
Geptards?
I'm rather fond of a term some anon coined in another thread earlier: blunderwaffens.
Blunderwaffe - Singular
Blunderwaffen - Plural
No need for the s.
I like the term though, it fits pretty well.
No, no look closely. There's a second one behind the first one in that picture, so I think blunderwaffen should still be okay if I understand the rules right. I dunno though my German is pretty much nonexistent.
can we start using the fish approach?
wunderwaffe = mt-lb with a turret
wunderwaffen = 2*mt-lb with a turret
wunderwaffens = mt-lb with a turret + t62 with a cope cage
I've heard the same thing, I considered the report dubious at the time because I couldn't find the source but the claim is that Ukraine may soon or perhaps already has achieved artillery parity with the Russians at Bakhmut which, considering it is currently under fire from the largest concentration of Russian artillery anywhere in Ukraine, would be a pretty big deal where it to be true
If Ukraine achieves PARITY in artillery with Russia, then Russia is well and truly fucked.
>according to Western estimates
Riiight.
If the ratio is actually so much worse for Ukraine, why has it taken Russia so long to (almost) take the city now? Yes yes I know Polish HATO Black super soldier mercenaries and all, but surely you have some other point that would address Russia's inability to capture the city by now.
so far they have been proven actually accurate
>moving by its own power
Tbf I don't think we know enough about the actual situation in the city, I think I went from "yeah they should seriously retreat" to "fuck I think they might actually hold it off" to "nah they should really retreat now" about 6 times in the last month alone.
bleed russia
operation cyclone 2.0
Because it's funny.
The meltdown if Bakhmut holds would be legendary.
If very much being the operative word. Seems unlikely to me, but who the hell knows.
They will probably hold it till the entire west bank is rubble in 2 months and the entire thing becomes as worthless as the flat land around it.
The seethe from Russians for that timeframe will be hillarious to watch.
Alternatively they could pull out tomorrow. I have no idea what Ukraine is thinking honestly.
If Ukraine pours enough bodies into the defense of the city, maybe. I'm still kinda doubtful overall. Seems like they may be doing an okay-ish job of keeping Russia from being able to take full advantage of their forces to the North of the city itself.
I personally don't see the value in wasting the counter offensive there for any reason other than the seethe it would cause. Strategically 2/10, kek value 9/10
>so that they couldn't attack Melitopol. This is clearly a victory for Russia
Not that I don't think you're probably right on what the party line would be, but Melitopol seems like a good candidate for where the Ukrainian counter offensive will probably be targeting.
i think it will be funnier to screencap the celebrations when it falls
on the off chance the remains are liberated in short order
>The meltdown if Bakhmut holds would be legendary.
No, this is what will happen:
"We didn't need to take the city at all. We killed 100 000 khxoxkxhils in Artemovsk and we tied their forces there so that they couldn't attack Melitopol. This is clearly a victory for Russia".
What do they say when Spring comes and with all that donated armor the Ukrainians take Melitopol?
>muh spring counteroffensive
I expect it to go down same way it was last year: promised to do it in summer, didn't liberate anything until October.
My response to that is does it really matter if the offensive occurs in May or in October if lines haven't really shifted significantly by the point either way? Particularly if that counter offensive is anything even remotely close to what happened last year. Best case scenario for Russia right now they capture Bakhmut soon. Okay then what? Where are they going to attack next that they are reasonably likely to actually take before a Ukrainian counter offensive does materialize?
This but in reverse, maybe Zaluzhny is sacrificing a few thousand men in order to pin down Russians in Bakhmut and liberate something else (still questionable, but maybe it's just my theory that's dumb)
The recent attack of Russian partisans in Russia seems to have diverted some orc troops away from Ukraine, so that's a factor too
>Can't even acknowledge rampant USD inflation, the housing market primed to plummet, or the Fed panicking on interest rates, without it being some kind of foreign conspiracy.
Some reading material for you https://www.wsj.com/articles/godot-recession-federal-reserve-powell-d50ba71f
you got brain damage my guy
BECAUSE VIOLENCE IS FUN, JAN
Post feet
What have they got to lose? They can just mobilize to replace any casualties among non elite units and it'll buy at least a few weeks
The Ukrainians have turned it into a fortress and don’t want to leave. The Russians are attacking because that’s where the Ukrainians are holding up. It’s the type of hyper-static positional warfare which has characterized the war.
>What's the point of reinforcing Bakhmut
Killing russians
For a fucking year russians claimed that Bakhmut will be surrounded "in two weeks", but it's the same now: They just can't. Ukraine doesn't have to pull back because russia can't take it.
They are waiting for the mud to go an as they withdraw the will counter punch the Russians elsewhere if the Russians hyperextend
>Can't even acknowledge rampant USD inflation, the housing market primed to plummet, or the Fed panicking on interest rates, without it being some kind of foreign conspiracy.
But if housing prices plummeted, wouldn't that make it so that people could afford them and also mitigate inflation?
>But if housing prices plummeted, wouldn't that make it so that people could afford them and also mitigate inflation?
It also evaporates a huge chunk of wealth and assets that boomers, and more notably investment funds have been dumping into over the past half decade.
Oh no Dolores and Dave won't be able to re-fi for the third time to get a new RV and go to their hot-wifing convention in Scottsdale! Some young people might even be able to start families! This bodes poorly for the so-called Ookraina!
Lemme know when you figure out what happens when companies and banks and big funds become insolvent.
>Lemme know when you figure out what happens when companies and banks and big funds become insolvent.
The government bails them out?
I believe the technical term is "market correction"
If their business model can't handle a downturn then they didn't deserve to exist anyway, such is life under capitalism
>uuuuuooooooh bratty market, needs correction!
Poor Mr Shekleberg is just gonna have to learn to live without the third holiday home I guess
Americans, boomers especially, are going to have to be torn out of this fantasy that all you have to do is buy real estate and then your money just goes UP and UP and UP forever.
Boomers are unironically becoming NIMBY's just to halt housing construction en masse in order to maintain scarcity and continue this insane ETERNAL UPWARDS FINANCIAL MOMENTUM cult. Just sitting on real estate is not a viable option for people anymore and its time to get over it.
With inflation such as it is I expect those numbers to keep going up
>Continued money and support from NATO is conditional upon proving that it will actually stop, not just slow down, the Russians.
yeah this ukraine's whole problem with relying so heavily on outside support, PR and image become hugely important so they're forced to engage in questionable decisions like what they are doing right now.
Ukraine absolutely requires outside support. It started off as a comically corrupt, poor shithole. It barely had an armed forces, and that in name only. They’d have collapsed and had a regime change by now, which was Putin’s calculation going in.
>they're forced to engage in questionable decisions like what they are doing right now.
They aren't forced by anything though. Ukraine could abadoon Bakhmut tomorrow and strategically it probably wouldn't be that impactful to the overall war. They have no real means to capitalize of taking the city and turning that into anything else meaningful, meanwhile Russia's other offensives in Luhansk have floundered. In Vuhledar they've been forced to switch from armor intensive offensive, to one that is amusingly nearly as infantry heavy as Bakhmut has been for months after extensive attrition of their armored forces there.
Big picture not a lot changes whether Bakhmut gets abandoned tomorrow, holds for another week or month then is eventually captured by Russia, or holds for the remainder of the foreseeable future.
Autismo can't spot obvious sarcasm, he's even laying it on thick.
No i definitely spotted it. Good luck reading at a high school level.
No you didn't.
>What's the point of reinforcing Bakhmut
You're probably too stupid to be on the Internets. Or you're a troll shitting out slide threads to compensate for your empty life. G'Bye now.
American here, I am very demoralized and will write to my representative in the Pennsylvania State Duma to request they pressure Biden to stop sending arms to Ukraine.
I for one will continue to write to my state Duma in Missouri encouraging the Biden administration to send even more arms to Ukraine because I'd rather see our tax money go to killing Russians than to publicly funded HRT
Ask them where Fetterman is
Someday your balls will drop, some hair will grow on your face and you will come to realize that the economy being in the shitter is as common as gays on PrepHole.
>the housing market primed to plummet
I wish it would. I have a lot of cash saved up but housing prices right now are utterly insane.
>What's the point of reinforcing Bakhmut
Random justification / cope.
>Prigozhin is in power struggle with Ru MoD
>Prigozhin needs results right fucking NOW
>Wagner throws everything into an unsustainable assault.
>If Bakhmut holds Wagner will become a spent force
>that was never really ours
this whole world belongs to the west, you just live in it
BLOOD FOR THE BLOODGOD!
simply they are trading way too well to give up and any land given to ziggers is land that needs to be taken back later
those russian encirclements have little to no heavy weaponry so there is no artillery crossfire anyway. and their supply woes might be worse than bakhmut's
>without it being some kind of foreign conspiracy
But reality is boring and I have to actually learn stuff to understand it. Why can't I live in my own world where I am one of the few chosen to have access to secret information that requires a higher level of counsciousness to understand?
They probably don't want Kramatorsk bombed to ashes next.
you need to go back
The Kyiv Semite has spoken.
Denying Russia a propaganda victory and piling on the humiliation is worth it. Demoralising the enemy is a proven strategy.
What's the point of reinforcing Bastogne
When Roosevelt made the announcement that his top generals had decided to reinforce Bastogne, I was pretty shocked. I get that in the beginning, United States had a great strategic position and was basically mowing down Waffen SS troops, but the current position seems untenable and they also have to deal with the nightmare of urban combat since Waffen SS has reached the city suburbs.
Why don't they pullback to another line so they aren't surrounded in 3 sides and are in a better position? The US Secretary of Defense also recommended pulling out so it's not it's some crazy kraut opinion
The ukies aren't widening crap, they're openly bragging about the people getting shelled being TDF, National Guard and foreign legion while they're building reserves.
Yeah that's war. Sometimes someone's gotta eat a shit sandwich for the rest of the team.
While Russians are being forced to use Wagner professionals and VDV, and losing elites in large numbers? I'd call that a bargain.
>the dollar is dying
The dollar is THE world currency. There is NO, repeat NO, currency that comes close to it. If it dies, which is it is not btw tovarish, the world dies. Now go suck off a babushka.
>when the dollar is dying and nobody can buy a house
bought an apartment with my US paid salary, so maybe, just maybe the problem is not with the dollar, but with people like you who don't have any skill
Poor wussia is getting defeated by the global homos
you turdies never fail to not stick out like a sore thumb
Yeah there are some bad markers.
I don't see that eroding support for the war in Ukraine. People are fiscal retards.
Giving the Ukrainians our hand me downs that were otherwise going to the trash has no effect on the economy
Here's my theory why ukies so stubbornly keep holding on to Bakhmut:
It is a calculated decision, arising from several different factors.
-It is an effective grinder for russians, who for some retarded reason keep throwing their men into it. Never stop the enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Because of the above, it functions as a bottle-neck. Defense there is effective with minimal use of force, Thermopylae style. This allows them to move other troops elsewhere (especially tanks. Maybe they have a counter-attack coming up).
-They recon they can hold on to it and prevent it from being fully encircled. They will be able to supply the defenders at least to the degree where it is sufficient.
-If they would retreat, this same scenario would just play out again in some other city (most likely Kramatorsk/Slovyansk) and Bakhmut is already rubble. So why damage another city to do it all over again?
-There are those salt mines in Bakhmut. If Russia would manage to capture them, that would give them an effective cover to store their munitions safe from artillery and drone fire. They don't want Russia to have that. (if they have to retreat, they will probably use explosives to collapse the mines).
-Russians are desperate for some kind of win, for propaganda reasons. While Bakhmut really isn't anything to gloat about, they will take ANYTHING at this point. And Ukraine doesn't want to give them that satisfaction. Small Ukraine being able to hold it's own even against human wave tactics is just a big middle finger to Russia.
-Since Russia is desperate to get the town, they are likely to do mistakes. They are already fault-lines opening between the army and Wagner, and the more friction Ukraine can cause between them the more likely they will fall to infighting.
All in all, this calculation yealds result: "It's worth it". They simply gain more out of it than what they lose. Sure, it is costly in men and material, but they get so much more out of it that it's STILL worth it.
So yeah... It's just a cold calculated assesment: "Well, this seems to be working. Let's keep doing it."
russias desperation is also opening opportunities elsewhere. russia is trying really hard to make UA commit reserves in places like Marinka and Vuhledar. And in doing so losing entire fucking armored brigades for nothing while Ukies sit tight and enjoy the show while they wait for new western equipped brigades to show up
Yeah, that should also be highlighted: Bakhmut plays TIME.
Time for Ukies to get the new western toys on the field. They are being delivered, but it's still going to take some time. Just play time until next summer's offensive. For that, Bakhmut will do.
And the closer to Donetsk the battle lines are when those western toys are in use, the better.
Less distance to cover when the offensive starts.
It could be a case of simply buying as much time as possible, it's nearly Spring and Russia is thus far being denied the opportunity to pause, reorganise, and plan a further offensive in the Donbas.
Alternatively it could mean a major counterattack is being prepared around Bakhmut rather than the push to Melitopol everyone is expecting.
Or maybe it's politics and Zelensky is overriding the military who want to withdraw.
>Or maybe it's politics and Zelensky is overriding the military who want to withdraw.
I don't think he has that kind of power over the military. Of course on paper he has, but I can't imagine Zaluzhnyi or Sirsky to accept terrible orders.
If Ukraine successfully counterattacks around Bakhmut, my jaw is going to drop.
This board has been completely overrun by literal redditors who are entirely financially and politically illiterate, you'll never get through to them.
staying there kills 5-7 russians dead for 1 ukranian corpse
LETS GO THERE
>concern trolling by desperate vatniks about ukranian casualties lol
>they wont give you a single inch of shit from their anuses
>even though Kiev has not been targeted in months
The Russians have been launching daily missile strikes against the city for more than half a year now
The last one was in December.
Incorrect, they never actually stopped, just dropped to only one or two missiles/lawnmower drones a day
That's why you hear the sirens but not the impacts, the volleys are small enough now that 100% shootdown rates are commonplace
No, they aren't sending them daily to Kiev.
GWOT survived through a housing crash and recession, I think this infinitely cheaper proxy war will do just fine.
Hey, when you're a globohomo merc, you gotta do what globohomo says, or they cut off your cash flow.
Surely Russia will take the rest of Donetsk, if not everything up to the Dnieper in the coming months now that Ukraine has pointlessly exhausted itself, right?
Russians take this battle to be proof that Russia isn't losing. They've been told that it's worth the cost, that the 7 months of fighting are because this is it, this is the most important place in Ukraine. This is what the feints were for. This is what the repositioning was for. This is their final cope. Defeat the Russians in Bakhmut, and the buck will be broken forever.
What Ukraine needs to do is unleash reinforcements against the Russian encirclement forces outside the city, akin to grabbing an animal's jaws and preventing them from closing.
>be UFA
>have control of this small podunk town with some easily defensible high grounds and surface streets
>no tactical value other than the fact that it's Ukranian clay so there's no reason NOT to occupy it
>one day russia comes along and starts throwing teenagers and alcoholics at your easily defensible positions
>mow them down easily
>the fuck was that?
>then it happens again
>and again
>and again
>6 months later you still control your easily defensible shitty little town but youve killed tens of thousands of retards who are trying to take it for some reason
They can leave any time but its not hard to stay and they're killing thousands of retarded russians. What reason do they have to leave?
Pretty sure that sun tzu guy said something about what to do when your enemy is making a mistake.
>easily defensible high grounds
The ruskies have taken the easily defensible highgrounds and are looking down at the city, continued defense is just folly at this point if they aren't launching counterattacks to take back the flanks and as far as we know they aren't doing that.
I have no doubt the Ukrainians are planning to take the fight to the Russian encirclement attempts.
Don't think so personally, before the reinforcement it looked like they were going to pull out and have slowly started to replace actual units with subpar ones while decreasing the number of soldiers in the city but we'll see.
Yes
Do you know how to read topology on a map?
They very clearly haven't taken the western hills. In fact, it almost appears as if those hills are where the encirclement stops...
I wonder whyyyyyyyyyyy
>The ruskies have taken the easily defensible highgrounds
Have they?
Russia shooting that Ukrainian prisoner for simply praising Ukraine is definitely going to harden Ukrainian rage.
Does Russian MoD really WANT Wagner to win the battle? They hate each other.
I am thoroughly demoralized
Who cares if you're internet demoralized? You're not fighting over there. You're not in any army at all.
Just demoralize whoever you can and sooner or later you'll persuade someone important. Or just enough people to move the needle an inch.
Nice, now lets see Russia's.
>Captcha: AsSb8
I keep seeing this
Is this meant to imply there's a gap because all 20 year olds are dead because of the war rather than soviet degeneration or something retarded?
nope, all 20 year olds left the country. they are in EU.
I doubt reinforcements are going into the heart of the city. Russia’s obsessed with getting an encirclement, just pushing Ukraine out of the town isn’t enough for the amount they’ve invested in it, they must form a kottle even if it only traps a thousand civilians and a couple hundred soldiers they’ll be able to claim it was a brilliant tactical maneuver worth the months of effort. Ukraine just needs to reinforce the flanks, which are absolute Russian magnets right now.
The goal is to attrit the remaining of Russia's combat power through grinding urban warfare.
Might have something to do with Wagner crying about how they're not getting enough ammo.
I wonder if Prigozhin is genuinely schitzo the way he spends one day boasting that he's sent Champaign to Ukraine's widows and is on his way to personally kill Zelenski, then the next is begging for shells and saying the entire front will collapse if he loses.
You're talking to Democrats, who by definition do not inhabit reality. You're talking to people who think inflation went away because the news stopped mentioning it.
There are some rumors, that Ru army does not help wagnerites there(too busy dying near Ugledar and Avdeevka) and without the ability to cover their flangs there is a potential for eliminating all those Wagnerites and launch a counteroffensive on Horlivka with the potential to split Donetsk group and Luhansk group in two.
If there will be a second offense. Let's say on Mariupol. There will be an option to encircle
and liberate Donetsk on a table.
Bakhmut is of immense political value to Putin. If he gets pushed back in Bakhmut, I doubt anyone will believe in the war effort anymore back home. See it in context:
>Russia invades, claiming it's a two day SMO
>two days turns into two weeks
>two weeks turns into a catastrophically overstretched salient and summary massive withdrawal
>Putin hypes up the Donbass, really puts his head to the grindstone by publicly stating a concrete goal
>months later, his forces are STILL stalled at Bakhmut
If you view this event in its entirety, it becomes obvious that even a dictator like Putin absolutely NEEDS Bakhmut to fall—not because it is of supreme strategic import, but because he needs a big political win at home or risk the people turning against him.
Remember that Russia has still a nominally-democratic government. People go to ballots and vote for politicians. While this is mostly ritualistic in Russia, it does serve an important purpose: giving the people an illusion of control to which they can somewhat reasonably suspend disbelief. Without public support, the rigged elections and fraud become more apparent. It follows that even a dictator needs support at home.
I had the feeling Zelenskyy might reinforce Bakhmut. It's nearly unprecedented for any city other than a capital to have this much political significance, but I believe that Bakhmut is just as important to Russia RIGHT NOW as Berlin was to the Soviets.
I think Bakhmut will continue to be an incredibly vicious and bloody battle.
Bruh, at this point the Russian people could be convinced that not only did they not lose, but that there was never even a conflict. All those widows and parents of dead sons? Merely NATO plants to discredit Russia
Please don't respond to me if you use the word "bruh".
>dot com bubble happens
>2008 GFC happens
>covid happens
Still blowing $50b a year in Afghanistan until 2021, for 20 fucking years, totaling to 1.9 trillion dollars. How much do you think we've sent to Ukraine? The answer is 75 billion dollars. And unlike Afghanistan this has some very real geopolitical implications. Doomerfags need a reality check
I don't know what's going on. My guess is that they'll try to intensify this part of the front as hard as they can and then they'll strike russian forces somewhere else. I think that russian MoD knows this and that's why they cut Wagner's supply - they need ammo for all parts of the front in case of breakthrough.
Russia will eventually run out of cannon fodder meatshields to draw fire and before long will either have to suffer casualties to the more important troops (and collapse) or simply stop attacking.
Sure they have a lot of tards to throw away but not an unlimited amount, and it's doubtful the tard wranglers will follow them into the meat grinder when they run out, so their attacks will stall from lack of armour and troops when people start fighting back when faced with the choice of being bullied into suicide attacks or death.