What's the point of more powerful cartridge if your enemy doesn't have bullet proof vest?

I understand that US Army needed more powerful pew-pew for next gen bullet proof vests, but it's clear now that Russia doesn't even equip their frontline soldiers with standard vests (and they probably won't be capable of improving anything in that matter in next several years). 5.56 seems to be doing fine in Ukraine, especially that soldiers need smaller weapons in urban environment and more ammo during offensives (I heard from 2 separate sources that guys who are taking part of Donieck offensive are very happy with Grot rifles in 5.56 given to them). So I have 3 questions:

1) Is there a reason for european armies to start switching to 6.8 (I heard that's what UK are planing) when Russian soldiers will be equiped with airsoft vest during next, potential war?

2) Do Chinese really deploy next gen bullet proof vests that require 6.8?

3) Except for Russia and China is there any other hostile army that will require 6.8? IDK next gen army from some rich and evil Arab country that require 6.8 but not 7.62?

  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The harder it kills the better

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      fpbp
      that said, to achieve to goal of a more powerful general use rifle the rm277 is objectively better both logistically and functionally
      >less effort to shoulder and pan side to side
      >shorter
      >lighter ammunition
      >lighter overall package

  2. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Another general needed a place to retire to and Sig pays well.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Couldn't they just make some variant of MCX in 5.56 as replacement for M4?
      They've literally replaced carbine with battle rifle and now they've not only messed up ammo supplies, but tactics at squad level as well.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        they tried this over a decade ago and nothing really justified the cost of switching from the AR, which they have plenty of and will still use aside from certain units/jobs that are expected to use the m5

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >now they've not only messed up ammo supplies
        Ahh yes they "messed" it up by moving the squad from 5.56 to 6.8? Come on. They're keeping squads on the same caliber, it's just larger. That's the exact situation we have with 5.56 on the supply/logistics side.

        5.56/6.8/7.62 it doesn't matter which your squad uses as long as they all use the same caliber at the same time it's just as useful for 5.56 as it is 6.8

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          They messed up ammo supplies by completely switching calibers. The change hasn’t been made yet but now they have to get rid of all the 5.56 and replace it with 6.8.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Nope, they're not even reducing the 5.56 production at lake city ammo plant. They're building an ENTIRELY new building to house the 6.8x51 production line, in the meantime SIG is manufacturing the ammo out of their own factory. Long term the Lake City plant will take over primary production and SIG's facility will be kept around and in-use as backup capacity in case of an attack or similar disruption of lake city.
            Also, they're only ordering ~110,000 M5s and ~15,000 M250s, so the M4/M249 will still be deployed to MOST squads, it's only the primary "tip of the spear" combat force units that are getting the new M5/M250.

            At least that's the plan for the next 10-15 years. We could see changes further down depending how the M5/M250/6.8x51 actually performs when fielded.

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    All this shit looks like solving an imaginary problem just to provide a certain company with an exclusive deal. Are there statistics on losses caused by small arms? War is fought with artillery and aircraft, not with bullets smaller than a machine gun

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The past twenty years were mostly small unit actions in more or less urban areas with a few precision air strikes thrown in.
      So yeah, a little more penetration to shoot through a wall and a plate sounded great, especially because there were no assault moves that lasted three days witho zero cahnces to grab more ammo on the move. Everything was a patrol that lasted maybe a day, with tons of backup on call and an easy way to disengage if you ran low on ammo.
      Then Russia made their 'future armored suit' propaganda vid, and here we are.

      I mean, it's a great idea. But we've been there, half the world uised battle rifles in 7.62 NATO for half a century, and the verdict was 'being able to carry 30% more ammo beats having more bang per rounnd'

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    future enemies might be competent. Good to be prepared, given how long it takes to set up production and logistics for the new rifle, ammunition etc

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      All this shit looks like solving an imaginary problem just to provide a certain company with an exclusive deal. Are there statistics on losses caused by small arms? War is fought with artillery and aircraft, not with bullets smaller than a machine gun

      The future enemy of the US is going to be its own people in the next civil war. Everyone will be running around with kevlar vests.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >the next civil war
        Who's going to be fighting in this said civil war?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Globalists vs Patriots.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Not happening booger bitch, you have wasted your life. Sorry you were too much of a pussy to enlist but your cope that the REAL war will be against the gubbermints is just that: cope

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Why the fuck is the President always threatening to kill Americans then

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It amazes me how successful propaganda can be at melting people's brains. You would think talking to Manichean good versus evil, my team must win or it is the apocalypse, political retards that the US was a fascist country from Jan 2017 to Jan 21, and then immediately flipped to full communism. In reality, little changed, even on the core issues. The biggest bill Trump passed was more supply side tax cuts. He had both chambers and the Court but they didn't hold one (1) vote on migration. Migration hit a 13 year high under Trump because the demand for labor in the US versus degree of shit going off in Latin America dictates migration, not policy really. Meanwhile, communist Obama saw migration plunge because the economy was shit. You'd also think Presidents control the business cycle and gas prices. As if, despite literally every developed economy in the world having record inflation, somehow having a different president would stop this.

            So Biden has to be portrayed as the evil, radical, child rapist warlord. When the reality is that he is a stuttering old man who was a picture perfect Clinton Dem, supporting unions and New Deal policy while trying to outflank Republicans by being more to the right on globalization and migration. He always adjusted his policies to what was popular in order to get support. Now he moves left to keep support from the base.

            He's more an ineffectual man too old for the job, not a power hungry dictator. Dude has already hinted that he won't run again

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >The future enemy of the US is going to be its own people in the next civil war.
        Correct
        >Everyone will be running around with kevlar vests.
        moron any rifle already punches clean through kevlar

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I don't know about russians in the future, but
    I DO have level 4 plates and I DO hate the antichrist. Do the math

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/iRuAlAD.jpg

      [...]

      The future enemy of the US is going to be its own people in the next civil war. Everyone will be running around with kevlar vests.

      >Russia
      >your enemy
      >>>[...]
      lmao

      Very organic posting, I am now demoralized

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        it really is annoying. SHTF addicts are unable to function without believing the government is out to get them.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          They are laying the legal foundation to setup the next domestic which hunt, all in the guise of fighting "racists". Big government can't function without a boogey man to rally against.

          https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s894/BILLS-116s894is.xml

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            That boogeyman is the Chinese if you haven't noticed.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >the DHS will now have an official domestic terrorism office

              bro they probably already DO that but just have another team doing it since islamic terror hasn't been a thing for years.

              No doubt, they are just hedging their bets.
              The semi conductor and related tech embargo against China will cause the next major conflict.
              It's funny when the liberal media made fun of Trump for going against China while now ignoring Biden who continues to push the same policies with the same goals. Funny how the deep state works behind the scenes.
              It doesn't matter who you vote for. The 3 letter agencies, NGO's and think tanks just keep on trucking until full global domination is achieved.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >the DHS will now have an official domestic terrorism office

            bro they probably already DO that but just have another team doing it since islamic terror hasn't been a thing for years.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Dumb shill.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Newfag go back to wherever you came from

          >ur a shill newfag if you notice a pattern

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Your standpoint is "anyone who is distrustful of the US government is a Russian shill," I could genuinely fucking kill you for that

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >anyone who doesn’t love the government is a Russian bot
            I’m calling you a newfag because only someone fresh off the Reddit boat would say something like that in a place like this.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Newfag go back to wherever you came from

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        go eat a bag of foreskins

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It'll see service as a DMR, but I very much doubt we'll see it used outside of that capacity. The real winner of that program is the optics package and the belt fed machine guns that offer meaningful upgrades and weight savings over the M240/M249.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Does this mean we may start to see slurplus 249 and 240 optics hitting civilian markets? Based on my sample size of three units, that means cheap, thoroughly field tested Elcans..

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        The 3.4x M145 Elcan? I guess it's pretty tough but it looks hilariously outdated spec-wise compared to the 4x ACOG and Elcan SpecterDR, I suppose it'd be pretty good if you just need a reliable magnified sight on a budget.

        6.8mm has multiple times the effective range of 5.56, the M5 is also meant to be used in conjunction with an idiotproof ballistic computer optic that shows you exactly where to aim.

        The goal is threefold, to increase feasible ranges of engagement, to increase hit probability at all ranges and to increase the chance of every hit being a kill.

        The real advantage is being able to kill the enemy at distances they can't even fight back from, enhanced armour penetration is just a happy side effect.

        The issue is that the ballistic computer likely only calculates wind at the shooter's position and and not between them and the target's position; if you want the latter then you'll likely have to use a bulky standalone device like the Trijicon Ventus with Doppler technology. Calculating wind speed only at your position is better than nothing because it at least gives you a ballpark estimate, but it is not going to be exact.

        Likewise, unless the point-tracking system (if it even exists) can tag and follow moving targets, it's unlikely to be able to account for the interaction between bullet travel time and target movement, i.e. you still have to lead your shots.

        Its primary effect is probably to autocalc drop but this is the easiest facet of ranging. You still also have to actually be able to shoot a target that small under combat conditions, if you can't hit a 5" target consistently under stress at 300 then you're not gonna be able to consistently hit a 10" target at 600, even with windage, elevation, and bullet travel accounted for.

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Range overmatch.
    5.56 range (14.5" barrel) 200 meters
    Longbow range 300 meters
    7.62*54R aka "Russian" range is 800 meters
    6.8*51 Sig Fury range is 1500 meters.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I don’t know where you are getting these figures. Perhaps you are confusing .338 Norma Mag performance with 6.8x51?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >5.56 range (14.5" barrel) 200 meters
      What? 5.56 even from an M4 is effective well past 200 yards
      >6.8*51 Sig Fury range is 1500 meters.
      bro what? It's half that

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >2) Do Chinese really deploy next gen bullet proof vests that require 6.8?
    unless you re a manlet or a woman
    a 308 will do just fine
    if you re chad go for 30-06

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I prefer my .30-378 with M2APand and M995 projos. Because fuck my shoulder, my ears, and my wallet, but most of all fuck you for stepping foot onto my ranch wearing a plate carrier with an air of authority.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      .308 and 30-06 are practically identical

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Wouldn't it be way cheaper and easier to stick with m4s and just shoot dudes in the hip if they're wearing plate carriers?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I say shoot ‘em in the dick

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Cool it with the antisemitism

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Russia
    >your enemy
    >>>

    [...]


    lmao

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's also a change in philosophy. During the early parts of the cold war, America always tried to one-up their rivals, but in the later days of the cold war up to now, they pursued a sort of "that'll do" strategy. And it worked against angry sand people. But now it's back to one-upmanship because they don't want to be caught off guard by potential new developments in body armor tech

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Unless they can make a 120-135 gr steel core AP bullet traveling at 2850 - 3000 FPS outperform a 163 gr steel core AP bullet traveling at 3300 - 3600+ FPS, they’ve already been caught off guard by plate technology.

      Wouldn't it be way cheaper and easier to stick with m4s and just shoot dudes in the hip if they're wearing plate carriers?

      Yes, trying to reliably penetrate any level IV body armor with a reasonably sized infantry rifle without specialized tungsten AP rounds appears to be a losing game. Even .338 Lapua is probably borderline.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Check out Buffman on YT. He's got a bunch of videos on this topic. It's a big field of interest for me. I've yet to test it, but from the best that I can gather, using hardened steel AP projos, your best bet is a .30-378 Wby Mag. .300 PRC, .300 RUM, and .300 Norma Mag are also a possibility, but honestly, it's kind of a crapshoot. Hardened steel just isn't hard enough.

        On another note, it does appear that it depends on the manufacture of the level 4 plate and the plate composition. Some compositions and manufacturers are a little better than others. Buffman has a video where a .300 Win Mag with an M2AP round makes it through one manufacturer's plate, but not the other. IIRC, they were both fair, clean, comparable shots. I think the surviving plate was a Hesco with a better composition and the failed one was one of the questionable/cheaper manufacturers.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah, I've seen quite a few armor tests. The plates that have demonstrated the highest steel core resistance so far are the Spartan Ares at 3300+ FPS for M2 AP (cheap boron carbide plate), RMA 1189 at 3300+ FPS for M2 AP (discontinued now but obviously the tech exists), and the Militech Boron Carbide at 3500 FPS for M80A1 (ironically a Chinesium plate that can't even be purchased in the USA). XSAPI also does pretty well.

          There are other plates that may be able to resist M2 AP at considerably higher velocities. Adept Armor makes the Colossus that's rated to stop RUAG Swiss P AP, and Shotstop's Duritium IV+ which was tested on Buffman's channel but not against .300 Win Mag threats. Shotstop's test results claim it can withstand M2 AP at over 3600 FPS.
          https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0559/6600/7488/files/v50-.30-06-cal._166-grain_APM2_IV.pdf?v=1626891095

          Funnily enough several of these plates really seem to be B/C tier construction wise, I suspect stuff like the Hesco 4800/4801 and LTC 26300 may be able to obtain similar performance more consistently at a lower areal density courtesy of better materials, manufacture, and QC.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            I havent seen all the ones you said but that video on Xsapi showed it's good af

            Also why does m193 pen steel but not uhmwpe and m855 doesn't pen steel but does pen UHMWPE

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              So here's what I know.

              The issue with M855 is not so much the speed as commonly believed, it's because the steel core partially penetrates into steel armor and seemingly makes a pretty deep indent but then slows down a lot and acts like a "plug". The lead behind it flows around instead of continuing to penetrate effectively.

              With M193, the nose of the bullet just sheds itself off to the side once it's spent and the rest of the bullet keeps on going.

              UHMWPE to my knowledge works primarily by increasing the frictional resistance or w/e (I'm not a physicist so I'm probably not using the correct term here) of the bullet as it passes through. However the steel core on M855 has relatively low resistance in such a medium, which allows it to glide though unless it's damaged and/or its angle of attack is altered by a ceramic strike face first.

              It might be worth pointing out that M855 is only *relatively* effective against UHMWPE, most pure level III UHMWPE plates can resist it pretty well at 2500 FPS (weaker loadings out of a 10.5") and a couple do okay even against proper 5.56 loadings out of a 16", probably not foolproof by any measure but good enough that I suspect 2900 FPS is around or below the v50 threshold. Likewise M193 really only works against steel at close ranges with minimal angle, spall not withstanding. Neither bullet type is really reliable against either type of armor.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >why does m193 pen steel

              M193 from a long barrel and at close range goes fast enough to cause adiabatic shearing in cheap potmetal plates.

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    think about submachine guns.
    how come they don't use the mp5 in counterterrorism anymore?
    prevalence of soft body armor lead to their replacement with SBRs.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I think that's much more due to people figuring out how to make reliable SBRs possible.

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It was made when we thought Russia was still a real military with body modern armor, and under the still current erroneous belief that the Chinks are too.

  14. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    A lot of civilians in America have level IV plates

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Not “a lot” .. maybe <5% of the most hardcore gun guys

      I don’t think that’s the justification for the new round and rifle.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Bingo. NY just banned body armor and they’d love to do federally for this reason.

  15. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It can't get through steel plates anyway. I guess it's more accurate out to longer ranges though.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Nah, full steel plates will probably still be dead even without the potential issue of bullet spall. It’s impractical to wear steel armor that’s heavy enough to resist serious full power AP rounds, hence why there aren’t any accessible Level IV steel plates to my knowledge.

      Make no mistake, the 6.8x51 standard issue round will probably still be pretty potent, enough to easily slot almost every III and III+ plate out there. But I doubt it’ll be drastically superior to NIJ spec M2 AP, which makes the tougher level IVs relatively safe.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Checkmate reddit!

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >octopoxho mojito

          as yes enlightening

  16. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    6.8mm has multiple times the effective range of 5.56, the M5 is also meant to be used in conjunction with an idiotproof ballistic computer optic that shows you exactly where to aim.

    The goal is threefold, to increase feasible ranges of engagement, to increase hit probability at all ranges and to increase the chance of every hit being a kill.

    The real advantage is being able to kill the enemy at distances they can't even fight back from, enhanced armour penetration is just a happy side effect.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >, the M5 is also meant to be used in conjunction with an idiotproof ballistic computer optic that shows you exactly where to aim.
      It doesn't hold the gun steady and pull the trigger for you. It can't account for wind effect at 800m and pvt rameriz won't understand it.

      >heavy bullet that travels further
      >smart scope with aim assist
      It's anti drone tech you retards

      Think about it

      See above. Also how fuck dumb are you that you think it's an aimbot?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Sure but if it's 90% of an M4 in close quarters
        Says who. Yeah she's a tiny chick but Lena has better recoil control than any of us.
        >and 300% of an M4 at 700 meters, then why not switch to it?
        Because 99.9999% of engagements aren't at 700m
        >but it's just speculation based on the M14 and similar older battle rifles.
        It's not speculation. It's recognizing the gun is at least 13.25lbs. Ammo is heavier and you can carry less. The criticisms of the M14 and battle rifles aren't because they suck shoot, it's because all rifles that size and weight suck to carry. You can't change physics and weight with a new fancy round.

        Wait are there anons reading my posts or are people coming to the same conclusions separately? Either way I’m glad to see people have the critical thinking skills to realize that this isn’t just an “I win” button against armor and long range targets, and that rapid firing watered down practice rounds isn’t necessarily indicative of combat performance. So many NPCs seem to think it’s some fucking guided recoilless launcher.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >It doesn't take account of wins
        It does actually.
        >It doesn't fire for you.
        This is true of the current optic but the US has deployed a full fire control system to combat zones for testing that does. You just hold down the trigger and guide it on target, it fires a round on a guaranteed hit.

        Literally all the opposition to this technology was put forth when tanks and artillery started using ballistics computers.

        >"But they won't know how to shoot without it."
        >"But it can't know when a hit will occur... because it just can't ok!"

        No one would think of not using a ballistics computer for tanks now. This is the same technology getting small and energy efficient enough for rifles.

        I am not convinced the technology is all the way there yet, but it's also dumb to think it would be a huge benefit once it is ready, and that will likely be in the next 20 years.

        Nogunz journalists outshoot trained marksmen at distance with smart scopes from almost a decade ago. The problem was making it robust and efficient enough for the field.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >It does actually.
          That's not what Vortex is implying.

          That picture is a basic recreation of the scope image, made by Vortex themselves. (Not actually picture through the real scope so we have no idea what the glass quality is like.) When you activate the ballistic calculator, it illuminates the corrected drop point and ALL the wind holds to the left and right of it. Not a wind hold, not THE wind hold, the wind HOLDS.

          That means it is still expecting you to figure out which one of the wind holds is actually correct, because the scope doesn't know the wind speed or direction, only the distance of the target.
          >This is true of the current optic but the US has deployed a full fire control system to combat zones for testing that does.
          This is presumably the tracking point scope you're talking about. It also doesn't measure wind, you have to figure this out yourself and input it into its calculator. This is why stuff like the Trijicon Ventus is a big, unprecedented deal, and needs a massive rangefinder unit to accommodate it, it hasn't been done before on the individual rifle level and is still in its early stages.

          Likewise the moving target tracking feature of the Tracking Point scope is primitive, if the target changes speed or direction and/or hides behind concealment then it needs to retag.

          Why? Because in all likelihood, this is what it does: You have to aim at the target directly yourself, then you press the trigger in order to designate it with a laser. The ballistic calculator tracks how fast and in what direction you have to move this laser in order to keep it on target, and creates a projected aiming point.

          This is not an intelligent target identification system as we might see on planes, it is just you manually tracking a point with a laser and then the system says, ok based on how fast the target was moving before, this is gonna be where it is now. It is very much more an NLAW than a Javelin.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Either that or what it's doing is tracking a single point in space, like a point of skin, which is a somewhat more sophisticated system as it doesn't require shooter involvement past having to aim and designate this point, and can better account for changing target velocity and direction. However it still carries the issue that you must accurately hold the crosshair directly over and set the target, and if the laser's "LOS" to that single point in space is broken for any reason, then the tracking system gets confused or stops tracking.

  17. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >heavy bullet that travels further
    >smart scope with aim assist
    It's anti drone tech you retards

    Think about it

  18. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    https://twitter.com/Boba12340769066/status/1582977773630464001
    Apologize

  19. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    5.56 has done admirably but it was designed with a mindset of shooting small brown people in the jungle. Shooting larger people, people equipped over open distances means a more snipery round may be called for. Although I would think in an urban setting 5.56 would still have the advantage thanks to benefits in volume of fire.

    I can only imagine the decision making went something like, "Shit the 5.56 is super old and old is bad. We need new, new is shiny."

  20. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Its to be able to suppress the RPK from 700m. 5.56 was failing to do so.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Why not just issue AR-10s when you're in a wide open valley of Afghanistan? Then issue M4s when kicking in doors of urban areas?
      Trying to use one rifle for every purpose ends up being "jack of all trades, master of none".

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Sure but if it's 90% of an M4 in close quarters and 300% of an M4 at 700 meters, then why not switch to it?

        Everyone is assuming it's a TERRIBLE gun compared to the M4 at average engagement distance, but it's just speculation based on the M14 and similar older battle rifles.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Sure but if it's 90% of an M4 in close quarters
          How? It's bigger, heavier, has less mag capacity and more recoil

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Again, you think it's an M14 and react accordingly

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >Objective metrics
              >"You're pretending"
              Are you pretending to be dense?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It's not objective metrics though, how much does it recoil in an objective measurement?
                How much heavier is it when fully kitted out compared to an M4 with the same level of attachments?

                Its not even really that much bigger than the M4. The M5 is only 4 inches longer.

                Again, it's a gun you've never shot, never seen shot in person, and have no experience with it outside of a handful of YouTube videos using non-military loads and mostly semi-auto only.

                To pretend we know how the M5 will perform in actual combat compared to an M4 is retarded.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                We know it recoils more. We know exactly how much it weighs compared to a typical kitted out M4 (protip it's in excess of two pounds). We know it's bigger and longer. We know it has 66% of the mag capacity. So again, how is it 90% of the M4 in CQB?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >To pretend we know how the M5 will perform in actual combat compared to an M4 is retarded.
                >Proceeds to pretend to know how the M5 will perform in actual combat compared to an M4

                We're at the level of cope now where SIG shills claim a pissing hot 6.8x51mm doesn't recoil more than 5.56x45mm.

                I'm feeling second hand embarrassment reading this.

                If paper specs translated directly to actual combat effectiveness Russia and China would be a lot more effective militarily.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Poor bait.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                https://i.imgur.com/pORynfL.jpg

                Just stop my guy

                Kek I can't wait to see you retards seethe when the US actually buys 100,000+ M5s.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Just stop my guy

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Just quit. If Russia and China had what they claim they have they would be effective. But they don't. That's why they suck. Just like Sig can claim a 10k round barrel life despite the fact the barrel is nothing remarkable, and similar barrels with similar rounds at similar velocities don't have anything close to that barrel life. And those aren't at a retarded 80k PSI either.

                Oh wait please tell us it's a LMG program. Oh wait no it's for penetrating armor isn't it? It's hard to keep up with your current narrative.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >To pretend we know how the M5 will perform in actual combat compared to an M4 is retarded.
                >Proceeds to pretend to know how the M5 will perform in actual combat compared to an M4

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                We're at the level of cope now where SIG shills claim a pissing hot 6.8x51mm doesn't recoil more than 5.56x45mm.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I'm feeling second hand embarrassment reading this.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                God I hate Siggers so much

                >how much does it recoil in an objective measurement?
                Yes that is a mathematical calculation and is objective. It has more than a 10% increase in recoil
                >How much heavier is it when fully kitted out compared to an M4 with the same level of attachments?
                Also objective. It's 3-4lbs heavier, excluding extra mags
                >Its not even really that much bigger than the M4. The M5 is only 4 inches longer.
                Absolute lie. The length isn't the big issue, it's the weight.
                >Again, it's a gun you've never shot
                Neither have you, so why are you praising it?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Motherfucker the gun weighs 10lb with just the gun and suppressor, not counting ammo, mag, optics, etc. probably weights over 13 lb. They shoulda went bullpup to save weight, the Lonestar entry was the better one.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            he thinks the RPK is the PKM and is regurgitating talking points from antiquated power point pitches for overmatch, don't assume he knows what he's talking about

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >90% of an M4 in close quarters
          I thought ammo was going to weigh more, and troops would vary 50% less.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            We're at the level of cope now where SIG shills claim a pissing hot 6.8x51mm doesn't recoil more than 5.56x45mm.

            To be completely honest, I would not be surprised at all if this thing ends up being the sequel to the m14. If it ends up getting deployed as is, I'm fully expecting a carbine version and some fucky 6.8x45 or other mid sized round to be developed within like 5 years. The weight and ammo issues really can't be ignored

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It will weight more but it's 40% more weight not 50%. Loaded mags are 1.4lbs vs 1lb. They'll carry 140 rounds instead of 210 so it's a 33% reduction in ammo per soldier at the cost of 40% more weight. Or you could say sticking with 5.56 increases ammo carried by 50% and cuts weight 30%

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Sure but if it's 90% of an M4 in close quarters
          Says who. Yeah she's a tiny chick but Lena has better recoil control than any of us.
          >and 300% of an M4 at 700 meters, then why not switch to it?
          Because 99.9999% of engagements aren't at 700m
          >but it's just speculation based on the M14 and similar older battle rifles.
          It's not speculation. It's recognizing the gun is at least 13.25lbs. Ammo is heavier and you can carry less. The criticisms of the M14 and battle rifles aren't because they suck shoot, it's because all rifles that size and weight suck to carry. You can't change physics and weight with a new fancy round.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Its to be able to suppress the RPK from 700m.
      RPKs are not effective at 700m. PKMs sure. Not RPKs. 7.62x39 drops like a rock after 300m and the longer barrel doesn't matter. 5.56 can outdistance 7.62x39

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I meant PKM anom thanks for correction

  21. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The US military is pivoting to China and they brought 1.2 million plates in the last couple of years.
    Also if the new sight works as advertized even basic riflemen should be landing hits at 600m so better ballistics and energy are nice.

  22. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Just use a 20 inch bullpup in 556 already and stop being such fucking huge homos about it. Slap some p90 mag system on top and call it a day.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Just use a 20 inch bullpup in 556 already
      Yes
      >Slap some p90 mag system on top and call it a day.
      Wouldn't work. 5.56 is tapered and making that mag work with a tapered case would suck. Plus it would be pretty fat.

  23. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >what is MIC corruption
    The US Army shouldn't be allowed to procure a single thing. There needs to be a oversight agency, completely separate from the military and MIC.
    MARS
    Military Acquisition Review and Selection.
    This agency has final say in every acquisition or upgrade that the military gets, not the generals or senators.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      It doesn’t preclude the possibility of lobbying it just shifts the target. Instead of bribing generals they’ll bribe MARS officials

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >lobbying
        Dosen't work on unelected officials, think police officers.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Well yeah, because "lobbying" is just legal bribes. Now they'll just resort to normal bribing.

          Nothing changes.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            >normal bribes
            So easily traced crime?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Lmao are you a child or a naive college student?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >thinks police are easily bribed
                Wew kiddo.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Police departments are unironically some of the most well-armed and trained gangs in the US.
                I have zero doubt they willfully accept bribes, plant evidence, or look the other way depending on individual circumstances.

                The fact you honestly think the police are the good guys and not just hired thugs by the wealthy and powerful to keep the poors in their place is fuckin hilarious. The US police LITERALLY formed from union-busting private security services.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Seriously, I shouldn't be surprised but seeing bootlickers on k of all boards is really something.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It's Russo-Ukrainian war tourists. Once it's over they will leave. A lot of them are communist/marxist/globohomo gays that would normally be posting other gay shit are jumping on Ukraine and are posting about Ukraine exclusively and are hiding amongst the legit nationalists who are against Russia in a patriotic sense.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >So easily traced crime?
              Lol who is prosecuting. Man somedays I wish I could go back to believing in equality and the law

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        You're assuming MARS isn't a bunch old retired generals and political bureaucrats. The MIC is too ingrained in our government to be stopped.

  24. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Everyone ITT is talking out of their ass

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      You mean the gun that barely anyone knows about because it's all top secret? Who would've thought that from people spamming MIC corruption this and SIG bribing yada yada.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >because it's all top secret?

        wat? every big name guntuber has had their hands on it.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          No, they've shot the civilian semi-auto version with civilian load ammo.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Nah, flannel daddy had the select fire one

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Still had civilian ammo

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Is anyone other than sig making 6. 8

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >every big name guntuber has had their hands on the latest service rifle that hasn't even seen widespread issue yet
          lol what a fucking dumbass you are

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        What the flying fuck are you talking about? We have all sorts of hard specs and access to feedback from civilians.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Doesn't prevent us from making a reasonable guess. We can assume with a high degree of confidence that it's not gonna fire marshmallows. We can posit with a somewhat lower degree of confidence that it will not match .50 BMG API for armor piercing performance.

      No, they've shot the civilian semi-auto version with civilian load ammo.

      Bruh we've seen people use it on full auto, there is nothing to suggest that it would recoil meaningfully less or weigh less.

      ?t=6
      https://youtube.com/shorts/WSz0xAL4v6Y?feature=share
      Kicks like a fuckin 12 gauge.

      (Before you say "ummm tiny wimmin" about the second one, I assume Lena Miculek still handles recoil better than the average retarded grunt. There are videos of her firing shotguns, she does fine.)

      And yeah it's the civilian hybrid rounds there, by Sig's own admission the military rounds are at least as hot. So how is that supposed to change things?

      >But Garand Thumb and Karl handled it fine!
      Weaksauce brass case loadings, not the hybrid rounds. That shit's barely M80 level.

      We know it recoils more. We know exactly how much it weighs compared to a typical kitted out M4 (protip it's in excess of two pounds). We know it's bigger and longer. We know it has 66% of the mag capacity. So again, how is it 90% of the M4 in CQB?

      Just 2 odd pounds? Thought it'd be way more than that.

      M4A1: ~6.7 lb base + 1.1 lb loaded mag + 0.9 lb ACOG/RMR + 0.4 lb Surefire M600/mount + 0.3 lb NGAL + 0.1 lb pressure pad

      ~9.5 lb total give or take

      NGSW: 8.4 lb unloaded mag + ~0.9 lb bullets + ~1lb suppressor + ~2.5 lb optic +0.1 lb pressure pad + 0.2 lb illuminator (scope doesn't have a fucking IR illuminator kek) + 0.4 lb Surefire M600/mount

      Total: ~13.5 lb, and I might be being a bit conservative on the suppressor (one article claimed it was 1.4 lb)

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >scope doesn't have a fucking IR illuminator kek
        yes it does

        > 1-8x LVPO
        > etched reticle
        > laser rangefinder
        > atmospheric sensors
        > compass
        > ballistics calc
        > visible + infrared lasers

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          bro

          I said IR ILLUMINATOR

          not IR LASER

          you want both

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Considering it's replacing an IR laser/illuminator combo, do you not think it can ALSO do both?

            The big box on top is where the lasers are, it's got PLENTY of room for an illuminator laser.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >Considering it's replacing an IR laser/illuminator combo, do you not think it can ALSO do both?
              Considering no one has said it has an IR illuminator including Vortex themselves, doubt it.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I mean, all the recent higher end stuff is combined visible/IR aiming lasers AND IR illuminator in one, so i don't see why it'd be a SHOCK that a massive brick of a laser range finder and IR/Visible aiming laser box couldn't also fit an IR illuminator in there.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Because no one has said they did even though they listed a bunch of the other features, Vortex themselves made a video. And that box is probably also having to run ballistic calculations.

                What's the tactical advantage to leaving out this single unclassified capability and mentioning all the other ones?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Oh good you watched the video, so you ALSO know it has an expansion slot to add additional capability, AND the laser box on top is an attachment that can be independently updated/upgraded and changed out.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah and unless they do some fancy schmancy technology upgrade, guess what adding IR illumination is gonna do to that module? Add weight.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                lmao not much at all, a handful of ounces at most.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I literally said 0.2 lb in the weight estimation, that was acknowleged

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >He cant put an illuminator on the barrel like a normal person

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                bro I said that they would have to add an 0.2 lb IR illuminator to compensate for the fact that the optic doesn't have it in the weight roundup. That potentially includes an IR illuminator on the front rail.

                Then this guy decided to jump me for it and declare that it totally had an IR illuminator, now he's backtracking I guess

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Dmr shit.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            at least it's got a cool red-dot mode at 1x instead of all the ballistics calc and mildots and shit.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Okay, but when can I buy one?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Leaning forward more than Naruto

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Heavier and less ammo. Great combo.

  25. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >I heard that's what UK are planing
    Where di you hear this? I haven't heard of anyone outside of the US planning this

  26. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The only reason they switched is cause sig is sucking off the people who make the decisions. Even if China has level 3 vests, the marine corps gonna be the ones fighting them and they have 416's in 556

  27. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    to make some garden gnomes richer, same reason as always

  28. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Since when are the bongs planning on it? I know they tested 6.5 but that was before the spear was even adopted.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Australia has been developing a 6.8 gun

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        6.8 Grenel or 6.8 Creedmoor?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          6.8x51, same as the US.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Standard pressure or extra pressure?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              They haven't said AFAIK, the gun wasn't even shown off much except for some magazine article like a year or two ago and then a gun show 2 or 3 weeks ago.

              But yeah, they saw the NGSW program and decided to run their own concurrent program using the same ammo size, hard to say if they're going for 80k PSI or not though.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              I think it would be a huge liability to make a gun that can not handle the high pressure rounds. I don’t think anybody will ever make one like that.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              I think it would be a huge liability to make a gun that can not handle the high pressure rounds. I don’t think anybody will ever make one like that.

              the thing is you simply don't need the insane pressure in a bullpup. the XM5 is basically forced to use a more violent burn because its barrel is so short.

  29. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Get hands on MCX Spear that's uses the civilian meme cartridge
    >Guiz I shot the XM5 XP

  30. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    So when your enemies do have armor, you're not sitting there with your dick in your hands as your bullets are bouncing off their chests.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >he thinks 6.8x51 defeats rifle plates without tungsten

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Our enemies have had access to body armor since the 80’s. Why is it only now an issue?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Body armor isn't a new technology and no one outside of western nations field it. Also you are deluded if you think the standard 6.8 bullet can beat level IV

  31. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >The Army plans to procure a total of 107,000 rifles over a 10 year contract
    Is it just me or is that INCREDIBLY inadequate to be the new "service rifle"?
    I can't find concrete numbers but it looks like there's anywhere between 2 and 10 million M4s and M16s floating around Pentagon armories?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      It's not the new primary service rifle, it's the new primary rifle ONLY for frontline combat units.

      EVERYONE else is still getting M4s for the next 15-20 years.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I thought it was still in field trials like XM8 or SCAR

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          XM8 never got an official XM designation, it was simply CALLED the XM8 before reaching XM status.

          The XM5 is ACTUALLY an XM-designated rifle. When it gets fielded in late 2023 or early 2024 it'll officially get changed to the M5.

          Also, they've ordered more M5s already than SCARs were EVER ordered by the US. The XM5 has gotten far closer to full fielding than either the SCAR or XM8 ever were.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Wouldn't a SCAR in 6.5C or 7mm08 weigh less and have just as good ballistics?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Not without modifying those cartridges to do ~80k PSI.

              Also the SCAR is garbage, I'm really not sure why people keep creaming over them. It's been out for YEARS and FN still wont even put an adjustable gas block on, just fucking retarded and non-sensical. Fuck the SCAR.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                The SCAR has an adjustable gas regulator you absolute retard

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Stock one is complete and utter dogshit and basically ANYONE that runs a SCAR with a suppressor has an aftermarket one.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Where you going with those goalposts buddy? It works for USSOCOM.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >It works for USSOCOM
                ...you mean the organization that bought 850 Mk 16s and 750 Mk 17s before cancelling production? Then started removing them from their inventory?

                > SOCOM began removing the Mk 16 from its inventory at the end of 2011, and most units have had the rifle removed from service post-2013.

                Mk 17s were converted to 5.56 and used in Afghanistan.

                But still, the SCAR was never a hugely successful weapon for the US military.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                80kpsi. Do you trust sig after all their qc issues?

  32. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    American civilians don't have bulletproof vests ?

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I only have class II and class III vests, I was ngmi

  33. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's not designed for shooting Russians, it's designed for shooting Americans.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Retarded take

  34. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    There's no such thing as a "bullet proof" vest. Only bullet resistant vests, you have things like kevlar and aramid for slower and lighter projectiles or shrapnel and things like ceramic and steel for faster or heavier projectiles. You also need backers so your sternum/rib cage etc doesn't get caved in even if your armor "stops" the projectile. You also need something on the front for spalling, which can turn your neck and arms into shrapnel catching mince meat. The general direction that armor is heading in is lighter and more agile so that you can carry more bullshit and gadgets. Some units are foregoing flak protection completely and using the smallest plates for protecting the thoracic cavity and JUST the thoracic cavity. Even going for high cut helmets to fit more gadgets and have "better visibility" and less injuries for long term use. Congruently, the lighter armor and high cut helmets as well as the gadgets that go on them favor the profit margins for the military industrial complex, and without the ceramic attachment something like the IHPS reaches fatal blackface deformation from even handgun calibers. I assume the same would happen with shrapnel.

    To punch through older and even more light and up to date armor and gear, you actually do need a rifle like this. Armor is more plentiful it ever had been and a decision like this is geared more towards suppression of regular American citizens then it is fighting Russian or Chinese conscripts with barely any kit.

  35. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Future proofing. On top of that it is going to preform better than 5.56NATO vs unarmored targets as well. 5.56 sits directly on the line between deadly and survivable against an unarmored target, it's exactly enough and nothing more.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Better bullet technology bro, there was a thread here that hung around for a while

      Pic related, that's a 5.56 exit wound on a deer

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I'm glad the guy's petting the wounded deer to make it feel better, hope they took good care of it at the hospital

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Personally I want to see a 60 something grain .22 projectile loaded with the Hispanicy stuff they're using in the 6.8 fury. At that point can doesn't it need a new name? When I'm thinking of "5.56 NATO" a .22 pill roided out the ass isn't really what comes to mind.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          It's such a no-brainer that the Army will adopt a hybrid-cased 5.56 round along with the inevitable M4-A2.
          It'll likely be the same 62gr bullet as the current M855A1, but at some ridiculous 3200+fps velocity from a 14.5" barrel.
          Give the M4-A2 the same stock and pistol grip as the M5, make it tan, ambi-lower and a free-float M-Lok handguard. Boom, new service rifle for another 20 years of Third-World conflicts.

  36. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It was never for Russia. They would have pushed for NATO standardization if they had reason to believe it would be fielded in Russia.

    This is a rifle built for defeating Chinese body armor. I'm willing to bet it has similar properties to AR500 armor; strong enough to stop M80A1 or M855A1 at range, but not something slightly faster with slightly higher SD.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Depends on the body armor, this Chinese plate stops M80A1 @3500 FPS, ~450 FPS faster than the muzzle velocity with a 24.8" M240.

      ?t=453
      In practice I doubt this kind of armor will actually be available to PLA troops in any notable quantity, for the most part they'll probably just have a bunch of rice conscripts with some aramid if anything. But as Russia has demonstrated the US military enjoys being a doomer, and overestimating opponents might do you well if it weren't for the fact that it might actually cause you to perform worse in this case.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Depends on the body armor, this Chinese plate stops M80A1 @3500 FPS

        You keep linking that video (of a plate that got penetrated by 5.56 AP) as though M80A1 is AP ammo.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          And since you don’t get it, I’ll explain it to you again.

          The M995 shot was right on the edge of the ceramic strikeface where it would have been much weaker. This is also boron carbide which is uniquely vulnerable to tungsten penetrators compared to silicon carbide or alumina, not that B4C strikefaces aren’t often still capable of stopping M995 and low velocity M993 when fresh.

          Said ceramic strikeface was in fact not fresh and was already badly shattered by taking .300 Win Mag rounds and M993. Damage a plate enough and even M193 will go through. Unfortunately relying on shooting someone multiple times in the chest with .300 Win Mag just to have a chance of penetrating your shots is not that great of an idea.

          Tungsten rounds like M995 are not viable for mass deployment. Can NGSW tungsten AP rounds penetrate most if not all wearable plates at close range, yeah no shit. That’s going to be difficult to capitalize on when China controls most of the world’s supply, to say nothing of the costs associated with tungsten carbide.

          That is why there are 2 kinds of 6.8 NGSW rounds that have been outlined for combat use, General Purpose and Special Purpose (very likely tungsten AP). Is M80A1 technically proper AP, no, it is being referred to as such by shorthand because it has a large steel penetrator and performs close enough to M2 AP out of the same cartridge and barrel length. But technically no it is not a full-blooded AP round just like the 6.8 General Purpose is ALSO not full-blooded AP. M80A1 is however a steel arrowhead EPR design, just like 6.8 GP will also probably be.

          inb4 you don’t read any of this again

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      The Chinese can do the math and their not tied down to the traditional thought leaders that the western MIC has about body armor. You know, gadget functionality, modular proprietary pieces just to maximize profits. It's planning for the best case scenario.

      Western military analysts be like
      >we will always be able to conduct SEAD
      >there's no point in protecting the forehead, shoulders, extremities or lower body
      >just provide barely enough protection for the thoracic cavity, side plates are unnecessary and make the helmet smaller and lighter so we can fit more expensive NODS and thermals on it
      >soldiers in the future need a Halo HUD that costs a quarter million dollars the effect on the battlefield will be worth it just trust me bro
      >keep making expensive IFV's and APCs that don't actually protect infantry in transit, yeah trucks and lighter vehicles are more mobile and cheaper and keep you alive about as long but we need to make sure we get those companies that produce these things their billions in tax payer dollars
      >No those cheap Russian drones nee their own anti drone countermeasure, stop trying to bring cheap old school AA that's just as effective back into relevance when it's perfectly suitable for the role

      It's all about the damn MIC and I'm just sick of it. By the way, I hate the fucking chicoms but come on- when are actual nationalists going to make military decisions again?

  37. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The primary reason for adopting 6.8mm is not to defeat body armor. It is to be able to engage targets at a greater distance, because the more powerful round will have more power further out and will have better ballistics over a greater distance. This is why DMRs generally use 7.62mm and why sniper rifles often have even more powerful rounds. The idea of using .50 BMG dates back to the Vietnam War, when guys would use single shots from heavy machine guns to pick off VCs seen scouting off in the distance.

    The complaint about this is generally:
    >But most engagements don't take place at greater distances
    Supported by data on past engagement distances. The problem is that, part of the reason engagement distances tend to be shorter is that hitting a moving target that is trying to evade fire a greater distances is extremely difficult. The adoption of the new rifle comes with a new smart optic/fire control system which is supposed to make hitting targets at those distances much easier. There is a big difference between the claim that X% of engagements don't occur beyond Y yards, and the claim that soldiers do not ever see the enemy outside Y yards. The latter is not true (although it holds more true in urban settings).

    Simply, it is too difficult to hit people moving between cover a long distances to make it worth engaging. Obviously people can be hit in these situations, since snipers can be quite effective, including in urban battlefields.

    Full smart fire control systems work such that you hold down the trigger and it only fires a round when it is calculated to hit. These have been deployed by the US in combat but won't be standard for a while. Once they are though, they will obviously have a huge impact on accuracy and the number of rounds needed. This is very similar to what happened with tanks when ballistics computers were added, the tech has just finally shrunk enough.

    There is a reason vehicle weapons use 7.62mm or .50 caliber. Cont.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      We use more powerful rounds, pretty much whenever we can (if mounted on drones or vehicles) because your field of fire is much larger. This is more important for indirect fire though.

      The beaten zone is the area in front of a gun that will strike a human target. It is from the top-close area where a bullet will strike a standing man in the head, to the far end where a bullet will strike a man in the foot. 6.8mm has a flatter trajectory, making this easier to figure out and a larger field of fire. Flatter trajectories also let you cover your own positions 's dead zones easier with overlapping FOF.

      Obviously, defeating armor and cover matters too. More powerful rounds are more likely to penetrate armor. Importantly, even if a plate can stop 5.56mm and 7.62mm, on average, 7.62mm will get through in fewer hits. The more powerful round degraded plates more on average. You also have to consider behind armor blunt force trauma. Non-penetrating rounds can break ribs and cause internal bleeding. They can be fatal (most studies that kill animals with non-penetrating rounds are shooting them with 7.62mm or .30-06 out of long barrels at very close distances, but multiple hits increases the risk of incapacitation even without penetration.

      It isn't a binary where a plate just stops a given round and makes one invulnerable to it. It's a gradient of risk as plates degrade. BABT isn't a main goal of using a more powerful round, but it's a nice add on.

      The trade off is that more powerful rounds are heavier and so you can carry less of them, which reduces volume of fire. But then heavier supressing fire also keeps heads down better, so it is a balancing act.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        I should add, part of the new gun selection is new doctrine stemming from new technology. Drones offer significantly enhanced recon capabilities. Aside from supporting drone assets you have drones going down to the squad level. You also have better interconnectivity, with IVAS and other tools making it easier and quicker for different components to share real time intelligence. All of this will make it easier to locate and engage the enemy at greater distances.

        The United States has every reason to try to get engagements at greater distances. It normally has a large indirect fire advantage. It tends to have air superiority and CAS that can be brought to bear. Now it has rifle fire control systems and a rifle that also is superior at distance.

        Obviously it's ideal to engage the enemy way out if you can accurately hit targets at that range and they cannot, even more so if you can use your rangefinder to call in mortars or have your ground drone light an area up with an M2 or 40mm air burst.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      You can't apply the logic of actual infantry tactics to this swap. What the fuck is a field of fire or beaten zone? What matters is if the price of having the latest copy of what ebin special forces use goes up too much. It messes with consoomers' ability to fully equip themselves in top tier tactical larp for the incoming Boog! You have to consider the weight and how much obese 60 year olds can carry on their 1.5 mile protest marches with friendly police escorts. They need to be able to carry the top tier operator gear for that. How else will they show off how much they want to fight a war they are too old to fight and their readiness to ruin the grandkids futures?

  38. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Retardation list:
    >Round is heavier so soldiers carry 70 less rounds of ammo
    >Mag cap is smaller so will have to reload more often
    >Training rounds and full powered rounds handle completely different
    >Full powered rounds make full auto uncontrollable
    >13 inch barrel requires use of suppressor otherwise big fireball and too much noise
    >Full powered round will cause severe wear and tear on parts
    >Rifle weighs UNLOADED12lbs with magic optic
    >Magic optic to shoot out to 800 yards at stationary targets not running around
    >Heavy ass rifle with more recoil and less mag cap when fighting under 300 yards and CQB
    >Design to pierce level IV plates not mass issued by any nation

    Lol. Lmao. The sooner this gets battle tested and canned the better.
    >

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      PrepHole could design a better next gen rifle than the xm5, cartridge and everything.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >every infantryman is issued an SKS

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          i mean it. PrepHole autists > conceited military boomers

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        What is PrepHoles design criteria? Urban? Long range? Both?

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          Specialized weapons exist for both urban and long range engagement, I believe a good general purpose infantry rifle should be capable of both but optimized for somewhere in between.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Hispanicy 277wolverine / 6mm SAW / 6.8 SPC at 62/65kpsi.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              None can address the issue of weight/total ammunition capacity on the soldier. This is one of the biggest reasons the AR platform is so successful. I came up with a solution for this and if I had a fraction of SIG's budget I would make them suicidal.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                277wolverine has same parent case as 5.56. Pressure it up to brass working limit. Maybe enlarge the magwell if needed.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Maybe I'm confused, is 277wolverine the hybrid case version of 277fury? I hate how they insist on naming new calibers confusing things and giving multiple names for the same thing.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Nah. All that those 2 rounds have In common is bullet diameter.

                277 wolverine is 5.56 necked up to .277. It is a wildcat cartridge with no factory ammo. I don’t think it’s SAAMI certified.
                277 fury (metric designation 6.8x51) is a 7.62NATO necked down to .277, and uses a 2 part case - brass body and steel case head to support 80kpsi pressure

                Energy and performance wise, they are leagues apart.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                But my confusion is that 277 fury is sold as both all brass and as hybrid cases. Shouldn't they be considered different calibers with different designations, since one day at some point assuming these cartridges get popular you may not necessarily be able to shoot the hybrid case stuff in guns designed just to handle the all brass stuff? Maybe for safety reasons people simply won't do that or won't allow for that, but hypothetically it seems like there might be a market for people who are interested in 277fury but only plan on using the all brass stuff anyway and might like their gun to be built a little lighter? In any event it's confusing when people like Ian of forgotten weapons say "actually 277fury recoil isn't as bad as everyone says it is" but in the video he's obviously using the all brass stuff and not the full power pissin hot hybrid case ammo.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It would be less controllable than 5.56nato and it would make a full loadout heavier. You would get 2 less magazines in a 10kg load. In my mind a next gen rifle should be a direct upgrade not a tradeoff.
                My pick beats 7.62x39 up close, rivals .277 fury at longer distance, increases total ammunition compared to a 10kg 5.56 loadout, and has slightly less recoil than 5.56.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                So what's your idea, smart guy?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >INB4 .280 British chad

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Similar diameter as 308 and 6.8x51. Ammo capacity

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                anyone who unironically advocates .280 British is just letting everyone know how little they actually know about it

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                What cartridge would that be?

                It exists on a sheet of paper in my room, I haven't given it a name. Call me an idiot if you want but it's not something that depends on advancements in any field, only readily available materials/powder and it's possible to mass produce with current technology.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Post pics or it’s .280 british with a 5.56 projectile, slightly slimmer case, and polymer

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Give us the basic concept or you're just some retard making shit up on the internet. I've developed rounds on paper that do some crazy shit, but I'm not claiming to completely change the game like you're implying.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Well you said yourself you'll never get the money to make it happen, so why not share it?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                The rifle is what I need the real cash for. I'm making the cartridge.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                What cartridge would that be?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >rivals .277 fury at longer distance
                >increases total ammunition compared to a 10kg 5.56 loadout
                >has slightly less recoil than 5.56
                You can pick two unless you have developed something game-changing on your own that nobody knows about. I've theory-crafted designs that would do that, but they require shit like electronic actions and magazines that just aren't there in R&D yet.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >

                [...]


                It exists on a sheet of paper in my room, I haven't given it a name. Call me an idiot if you want but it's not something that depends on advancements in any field, only readily available materials/powder and it's possible to mass produce with current technology.
                Currently dealing with legal stuff including patents. once that's done I'm ready to go to prototypes and I'll make a thread about it and let is speak for itself.

                Post pics or it’s .280 british with a 5.56 projectile, slightly slimmer case, and polymer

                swing and a miss, I promise you there is nothing like it on the market.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                I am waiting with bated breath. I'm keeping pic related so I can laugh at you if you under-deliver, so just remember that your reputation with a stranger on the internet is on the line.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                When you look at it like that, it does seem to defy physics. How could it possibly be as good as 277 for long distance but also lighter and less recoil than 5.56?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Maybe he has some 5mm super narrow projectile that's heavy and slow for diameter with some stupidly fast twist rate, idk.

                Problem is these concepts usually result in a compromise in at least 1 of 3 areas: Cartridge & action length, Terminal Ballistics, Parts Life.

                But who knows. Maybe he made the golden bullet. Maybe he never even came up with anything at all and is just posting for b8. We're all PrepHole anons after all.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Aluminum core super long projectiles like the CETME.

                Maybe he has some 5mm super narrow projectile that's heavy and slow for diameter with some stupidly fast twist rate, idk.

                Problem is these concepts usually result in a compromise in at least 1 of 3 areas: Cartridge & action length, Terminal Ballistics, Parts Life.

                But who knows. Maybe he made the golden bullet. Maybe he never even came up with anything at all and is just posting for b8. We're all PrepHole anons after all.

                Above would solve all of this except for cartridge length, which may be solved by simply reducing case length, since you're going to make shit go FAST without much issue.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Why dont we have loads like that shape today? wtf

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                If the cetme shit was so good, why isn't anyone else still doing it?

                Short answer: I don't know.
                Long answer: Because the low weight made it have poor effect at long range, even if it was capable of hitting at those ranges. This also made wind drift affect it more even with the high BC. On top of all that, the manufacturing process was kind of a pain with the copper driving band.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                If the cetme shit was so good, why isn't anyone else still doing it?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Aluminum core super long projectiles like the CETME.

                The aluminum core CETME ammo had terrible accuracy if there was even a slight wind, it is a fundamental flaw of using such a low density projectile.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Cause it's bait

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Not the laws of physics, just shit we know how to make. A highly efficient coil gun could be way lighter than an M4, pen tank armor, let alone body armor, and have ammunition lighter than virtually all fire arms, with a faster ROF if you wanted it possible. It would also be far quieter, with just the sonic boom of the 3mm projectile moving, and create no smoke.

                Armor we can make now would be pretty useless and range would be a non-issue since coil guns could accelerate things to several times speed of bullets (hell, it's a proposed way to hurl shit into orbit).

                It's just that taking EM and fully turning it into momentum is hard, and we are nowhere near the potential for energy storage in a block of matter as far as batteries go, not even close.

                Actually, in theory you could have a 3mm pellet from a properly powered coil gun so far more damage than a nuke, since slamming atoms into each other at relativistic speeds causes insane explosions and tears the atoms involved apart, while also generating heat high enough to fuse heavier atoms. It's just that we can only accomplish this right now by firing just a single nucleus, using a massive particle accelerator with tons of energy to get it up near light speed. It's also impossible to track high relativistic fire since nothing in the universe can bounce off it and back to you quick enough for a reading.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Thanks for the schizo rant.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Round is heavier so soldiers carry 70 less rounds of ammo
      On top of that, get this: Even with the reduced ammunition capacity, a combat loadout of 6+1 20 round 6.8 mags still weighs more than 7x 30 round 5.56 mags.

      About 1/3 of a lb per mag difference, times 6, and the NGSW indirectly tacks on another 2 lb for much less ammo. For the same weight you could carry another 2 mags for an M4.

      >Design to pierce level IV plates not mass issued by any nation
      ESAPI and co. are functionally level IV but they probably also fall into the "Can't pierce without tungsten" category lol

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      You arm up for the worst case scenario, which is facing a modernized force that issues armor, e.g., China.

      The US focused on conventional war for decades. Yes, this hurt it when doing COIN in Afghanistan and Iraq, but in two decades of wars our dead were measured in the single digit thousands. A major ground war with the Chinese, even if nuclear restraint is somehow managed, could easily result in deaths in the hundreds of thousands or higher.

      You don't plan for the likely event you can handle easily even if you aren't optimized for it, you plan for the potentially existential event that would dramatically change US interests in the world if we lost and could kill millions.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        China doesn't even issue armor outside of it's special forces. Furthermore, the first thing the Chinese will do is come up with an analog round to simulate the .277 Fury AP and will come up with a plate that can stop it. You wanna plan for a war with China? Figure out how to keep them in china. Figure out how to sink their joke of a navy. Figure out how to make their economy collapse and supply chains collapse, foment internal strife and unrest, make their currency deflate and prices inflate, destroy their food supply. China hasn't won a single war since the 1940's and has no troops with any sort of combat experience, no seasoned CnC structure, hardened NCOs, and is facing a rapidly declining population along with an aging crisis.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >China hasn't won a single war since the 1940's
          Not only that but I don't think they've ever won a war against an outside party. All Chinese military victories are against other Chinese.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          China intervened when the US had conquered all but the empty northernmost reaches of Korea, routed the US and UN forces, and pushed them back more than halfway down the peninsula. Sure, this is mostly because MacArthur was retarded, but it's definitely not a loss.

          They also achieved their war aims in Vietnam, even if they had embarrassing struggles while doing it. Doing something badly doesn't negate a victory. The Soviet did win the Winter War after all.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Honestly korea was one of the only good displays on the chink’s part. But that was with a corps of veterans of the chinese civil war. They dont have such veterans today.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          China has the same median age as the US and a similar population structure.

          The only way the US stays ahead of them in future decades is by importing so many third worlders that they continue to make up a larger and larger share of the country. But they came to the US for economic reasons, they won't fight for it, they didn't in their last countries.

          1 in 7 Americans are foreign born and close to 1:4 are either foreign born or have one foreign born parent. By 2040 this will be 1:4 foreign born and 1:2 with a least one foreign born parent according to Pew, hardly a right wing conspiracy group.

          As for stability, lol. The current most likely thing to happen in the US election is for Donald Trump to run as the nominee again and to lose again by several million votes. But state legislatures have since passed laws to allow them to overturn unfavorable elections and multiple candidates for secretary of state in key states are running on the platform of overturning future "fraudulent" elections. Hell, the Arizona one claimed her primary was rigged early this year until it turned out she had won. This will cause complete chaos, and plenty of American LARPers are chomping at the bit for muh ebin Boog.

          Next most likely thing is that Trump wins the EC on narrow margins but loses the vote count by 7-10 million votes. The GOP will have their 4th term in 9 despite having won more votes in just one national election in 36 years, and that with an incumbency from an election where they got less votes. The Court seems ready to grant state legs massive ability to overturn elections despite the GOP majority being all from POTUS who became POTUS with fewer votes. And yet the migrant share of the population that will be yolked under minority rule only grows while the minority rulers will shrink rapidly.

          Instability? I think you're looking at the wrong country for that hitting the fan.

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            All these years and you are still obsessed with Trump. Cope, seethe, and dilate.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >which is facing a modernized force that issues armor, e.g., China.
        If you're truly fighting a modernized force where hundreds of thousands of deaths occur it's doubtful they're going let you spam recon drones in unrestricted fashion for individual firefights, they're going to have some countermeasure. Likewise you are not going to always have airstrikes and artillery on tap. If you have all of these advantages then what was the likelihood that they are actually a near peer threat or can field armor for everyone?

        >Yes, this hurt it when doing COIN in Afghanistan and Iraq
        In Afghanistan the insurgents deliberately tried to leverage their long range advantage with full power rounds, and often had the initiative - which means the existence of an engagement was determined less by whether the coalition troops wanted to engage and more by whether the opfor did. Couple that with very favorable geography, it was in all likelihood not remotely representative of the average combat environment.

        In spite of this, an estimated ~50% of engagements still occurred within 300m, I can only assume more than 50% of casualties did.

        Frankly, Afghanistan seems to be precisely what the NGSW was made for. This sort of combat was the same thing that made troops bitch about their 4x ACOGs when they had little issue in Iraq, I am inclined to believe that it is also driving other developments.

        If China is again truly a near peer force, which I am highly skeptical they actually are in practice, then they will likely also be inclined to leverage their own range advantage at CQB distances. A more astute commander might think to use cover and concealment to move troops into closer ranges where their intermediate calibers can achieve fire superiority, and arty/CAS has to be careful about hitting friendly troops.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >BABT
        If you have seen those studies then you are likely also aware of ballistics reviews which have commented that real world incapacitating injuries appear to be rare even when BFD considerably exceeds NIJ standards from rounds considerably more powerful than service caliber handguns. Confirmed fatalities from nonpens are practically nonexistent unless the threat vastly exceeds the armor rating.

        Usually I would accord substantial weight to live animal studies, however, if there is a large (even if tentative) discrepancy between field results and lab results, that would suggest there is some variable unaccounted for.

        Now can a single nonpen to a rated plate (or close to it) incapacitate every now and then, sure, there is naturally going to be some random variation. Can multiple hits cause incapacitating injury, sure. But these situations are likely to be highly unreliable, especially when small numbers of actual penetrating shots from handgun rounds often do not incapacitate at the kinds of ranges where such phenomena might reasonably occur.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      It's because optics and a better cartridge let you get hits faster, farther, and more consistently. Troops aren't going to need 200+ rounds in a firefight because there will be a massive uptick in rounds fired per casualty. Suppressive effect will also be higher with a lower fire rate when each shot lands closer and peeking is responded to faster.

      Remember that the assault rifle was created at a time when magnified optics were absolute dogshit, so the prevalent tactic was to increase hit probability through brute force by firing thousands of rounds per firefight. Now, we have LPVOs that are useable from 8 to 800 yards with crystal clear sight picture. Combine that with a ballistic compensating computer and you can do in 5 shots what an M16 was doing in 100 or more.

  39. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Range.

  40. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    rigged competition

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      I unironically believe this. Sig was chosen before the competition was even created.
      >RM277 exceeds all competition parameters in both the rifle and ammo
      >TV cartridge even allows for M240b compatibility with the option to completely replace 7.62x51
      >Sig's exactly meets requirements down to the letter

      >"B-but much belt-fed"
      Belt-feed was not a requirement with an emphasis that the AR was second to the rifle. I don't care how good the machine gun was. There should have been a second trial if they were dead-set on one.

      Here's what I think happened.
      >Sig wants to sell all US small arms at the squad level
      >shows rifle, SAW, and cartridge to generals
      >bribery highly possible
      >bullshit competition is tailor-made for Sig weapon parameters
      >Sig is selected immediately after testing concludes

      There is zero precedent of packaging three separate components into one competition. Sig had all 3 from the start, so they tested all 3 at once to keep the barrier to entry high. I bet Textron figured this out early, so they pulled their shit out before the competition was over. TV likely found out after they filed a protest over the results and were told behind closed doors, which is why they withdrew the protest without a word.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Sig is selected immediately after testing concludes
        testing concluded like a year ago, SIG wasn't selected until a few months ago.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        If I was a board member at Textron or TV I would 100% sell their guns on the open market as a fuck you to Uncle Sam.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          TV announced theirs within days of the competition conclusion, but they haven't said a single thing about it since February. It's not even on their website anymore.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >bullshit competition is tailor-made for Sig weapon parameters
        While this may seem to get into conspiracy territory, and I can't personally comment on whether it has any truth, this sort of deal isn't unheard of.

        Look at the desired specs for the Marines' new optic competition, it basically fit the VCOG 1-8 to a T. Like almost everything about the scope.

        Which optic got selected? The VCOG 1-8.

        Now it's a good scope don't get me wrong but as with the NGSW, I question its mass deployment.

        Even the optic is a retarded idea. Afghanistan is uniquely clear of vegetation and tall expansive city settings and shit. Almost nowhere else in the world is so accommodating for engaging at 300 to 600 or more yards in any realistic meaningful way. And they want to put tens of thousands of dollars in gear on each guy just to have this capability so they can probably just die in a peer war and lose it all. It's the epitome of preparing for the last war.

        That's what I'm saying. Well not exactly, strictly speaking, the technology could certainly have significant utility in certain applications and could be more universally useful if developed further. But it comes off as overhyped as it stands.

        Also, an interesting video:

        %26Purpose

        This is L3 Harris' entry to the NGSW competition. Worse than Vortex's? Probably. Vastly worse? Idk, it's still the same competition and L3 Harris doesn't lack resources.

        Note the heavy blue tint ("unnoticeable outside" - yeah right). I wonder if this is how they accomplish decent battery life, by giving you a VR simulator of an assault on Atlantis.

        Another bit of conjecture, now that I look at the actual Vortex scope again I'm not sure the atmospheric sensor even calculates windage data at the shooter's position much less the target's. When you activate the calculator so it displays your aimpoints, it illuminates ALL of the windage holds to the side of the drop reference point. Not just a few specific suggestions, ALL of them.

        That says to me that they're still expecting you to figure out the wind speed and resultant POA by yourself, and the ballistic computer only provides a distance rangefinder to help you out for the latter.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >I unironically believe this. Sig was chosen before the competition was even created.

        NGSW was created so the Army could buy Textron's rifle but Textron fucked up by basing their rifle on patents they didn't own.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          That gun also seems to rival the mechanics of anything german

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            It was barely more complicated than an AR-15.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              I highly doubt that

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                It uses a push-through mechanism, which is pretty simple. The only reason the G11 was so complicated was the 2100rnds/min hyper burst mechanism.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                How are you supposed to hold that?
                Is the hot brass supposed to dispense directly into your palm?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                You could use the front of that lump as a handstop, also it uses plastic cases so heat isn't a problem. Wonder if the ever though to put the chamber behind the mag and feed rounds back?

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Idk man, a lot of people naturally grip a rifle right where that ejection port is. Even if it isn't burning your hand I can't imagine obstructing the ejection port would be a good thing. I think textron did a much better job on their LMG.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                The ejection port is the biggest oversight in this entire god damn gun. I mean come on that's where people are gonna put their hands every time. Even when holding without thought they'll hold it there.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          I really believe this gun represents the future of firearms technology but it'll probably take 10-30 years of iterating on it and improving it before it's truly ready to take over.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >ugh, bullpup

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      As far as I'm concerned it's not a matter of if but when the US adopts a bullpup design for its service rifle and never goes back. It's a fucking travesty SIG bribery will hold weapons design back for years. Once widespread adoption finally occurs, the interest will be there to iron out what QOL features are holding private consumers back on bullpups

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Most of the complaints people have against bullpups are fucking stupid anyway. A mushy trigger doesn't matter to the average infantryman cause he's not takin 800m bench rest shots, a 1/10 second slower speed reload doesn't matter cause he reloads from a chest rig behind cover, and he's never going to blow his jaw off because he's using factory ammo and not bubbas pissin hot moose decimators. But a smaller rifle with a high muzzle velocity for its size does matter to the infantryman.

  41. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's moot point because in 20 years we will barely use small arms. You'll sight a target with you optic, provided an autonomous drone hasn't first, and tap a button. Depending on the target, an appropriate munition will be sent in, be it a grenade from a nearby drone for a person, a 60mm mortar for some guys behind cover, or a smart shell that fires an EFP for an armored vehicle or drone.

    Conventional wars will increasingly be drone swarms and autonomous ground vehicles blasting each other with smart shells from multiple miles away as interceptor screens try to take out incoming spotter drones and munitions.

  42. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Reaching out further. Turning intermediate barriers into questionable concealment. Being less affected by wind or very smol obstacles between point A and point B.
    It may not be strictly necessary, but think of it as a min/max optimization kind of move.

  43. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Allows the military to take advantage of the new computerized optics they are purchasing to their maximum effect.

  44. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Reminder that the adoption of this rifle has nothing to do with armor penetration and everything to do with boneheaded “overmatch” memes from late stage GWOT.

    It is the new M14 and is an objectively bad idea, which is a shame because a lighter weight rifle with lighter weight ammunition and the same quality of optic could have been a significantly better option.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >a lighter weight rifle with lighter weight ammunition
      If only we had solved this issue in the 80's....

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Even the optic is a retarded idea. Afghanistan is uniquely clear of vegetation and tall expansive city settings and shit. Almost nowhere else in the world is so accommodating for engaging at 300 to 600 or more yards in any realistic meaningful way. And they want to put tens of thousands of dollars in gear on each guy just to have this capability so they can probably just die in a peer war and lose it all. It's the epitome of preparing for the last war.

  45. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    What if I told you we can spend money on 'defense' even if no entity presents any credible threat? What would you think then?

  46. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    No chance in hell the brits swap to 6.8 or the rest of NATO.

  47. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    There’s a need for a heavier hitting infantry rifle when your next target is your citizenry that just so happen to have an abundance of body armor that can defeat your current round.

  48. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The bullet will penetrate things more gooder

  49. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The only armies that equip rifle body armor on all their troops are Americans and Western Europeans. Maybe they think we'll fight the French soon. More likely it's to be used on American citizens since the governments getting worried about losing control and the peasants getting uppity.

  50. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >when you need to kill the guy hiding behind the first guy

  51. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Distance you fucking imbecile. Turning cover into concealment you imbecile. The current weapons have been in rotation for you don't even know how many fucking yours you imbecile and they're pretty clapped out, time to replace them. Also the gov probably doesn't want to use a caliber that citizens can use too. Based sig selling the spear to anybody with money or the will to throw it on a credit card though.

  52. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    you aim at the single file then.

  53. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    its for the aliens

  54. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I've said it before;
    The U.S. got all butthurt when the Chinese said their 5.8 round had decent ballistics and range. The egos of America took over and they went full retard

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