What's the point of designing a caliber to be short and stout?

What's the point of designing a caliber to be short and stout? And why do I not see these more often, seems like most of the time the case is long and slender

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  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Case capacity and commonalities with the parent cartridge case

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Why does every modern cartridge seem to be based on a parent case
      Don't engineers sit down anymore and come up with new dimensions from scratch? Everything is just lengthed x or necked down y

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        5.7 uses a novel case not based on any parent case. Which is unusual nowadays.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          why didnt it just use 223

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Great question, I have no idea.

            If I had to guess, FN wanted a straight wall case without any taper so it would function more reliably in the P90’s unusual magazines.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              why didnt it just use 223

              NATO wanted a standardized cartridge (Not 9mm) for PDWs. It got down to FNs 5,7x28mm and H&Ks 4,6x30mm
              NATO loved the 5,7x28mm and wanted that, H&K threw a hissyfit and it got halted untin 2021 when NATO STANAG'd 5.7

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                4.6x30 is STANAG too. 4820.
                Bruh

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            that's called .22TCM

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              TCM is a meme. The real play would've been a 9mm bullet in a trimmed and de-tapered 5.56 case. Oops, that's pretty much 9mm Win Mag.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              doesnt have pointy fmj bullrts

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It could, though, if you loaded it long to suit a 7.62x25 platform. Complete the family -- .22 TCM, .22 TCM-9R, and now .22 TCM-7.62L!

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The p90 had to be soft shooting enough for administrative and logistical personnel who also didn't carry spare mags and needed the sole mag to have as much volume as it could.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        why waste time coming up with special snowflake case dimensions when you could just start with something that's already good and work from there

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Has to fit existing firearms and magazines, to some extend. Full proprietary shit still exists, but consistently fails to sell or kills the responsible company. Any engineer understands money is the end-all, be-all.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        A lot of it has to do with fitting into current cartridge production lines. Yes there are companies that can make batches of boutique brass for enthusiasts but a lot of them use methods that aren't easily scalable to mass production. Meanwhile its way easier to take a case already in production and modify its dimensions slightly. Also being based on a pre-existing case can open up compatibility with pre-existing magazines, bolts, and other expensive components that can make developing a gun for your wildcat way easier and giving it a better chance to catch on (see 300 Blackout if you want an example)

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        it's probably cheaper to take existing brass from a common caliber and convert it.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        assembly line factoring

        easier to use standard parts than have to establish whole new production lines

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Why does every modern cartridge seem to be based on a parent case
        Because it needs to function in existing guns...so action length, action diameter, magazines, etc. Very few companies have the funds to stand up a whole new everything and be successful and almost no militaries want to change everything over at once. The portion of the civilian market that will is minuscule.
        We are 150ish years into the development of the metallic cartridge, the room to innovate around it has been pretty well explored. There isn't much to gain by starting with a blank piece of paper. What room there is to improve can be done with existing brass, which is mostly around accommodating today's longer-for-caliber bullets within existing mag and action length limits.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          If you're doing ammo development it's just easier to wildcat ammo coming off your line than designing an entire production line for ammo you're not sure will pan out.
          When it comes to action length and magazines that's more about OAL and you can always pick an OAL from a cartridge above without having to use it as a parent case.
          But if you want ammo, you either start from scratch or you wildcat. And starting from scratch will cost millions.

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It’s an engineering trade off. Short stout cases burn faster and more consistently, giving ideal performance. However fat cases pack less efficiently, and reduce capacity. So it’s a performance vs. logistics problem.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      *capacity in box magazines

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >posting literal fuddlore
      >nobody pointing it out at all

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        are these fudds in the room with you now?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Wider cases do burn more efficiently, numbnuts

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I think the main engineering trade off isn't in mag capacity, but it everything else in the gun needing to be bigger. If you say, use a .50BMG case cut down to 2 inches and a 30 cal bullet. Everything in the gun still has to be dimensioned for that BMG case. Bolt face has to be frick off huge, barrel has to be bigger to support the extra large case, which means the receiver has to be even bigger. Guns are still made with subtractive manufacturing, so all this will dramatically increase the cost of the gun.

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >What's the point of designing a caliber to be short and stout?
    Fits in a magazine that fits in a grip that fits in a hand.

    And I believe you've got your picture mislabeled -- that's .224 Boz, some British inventor's PDW cartridge that never went anywhere. The first version (right) was derived from 10mm, the later (left) from 9mm.
    .22 Reed Express is derived from 7.62x25 Tok for use in a converted CZ-52 pistol, and is longer than either of them.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      .224 Boz's development was moronic and it deserved better.
      >10mm version had 10" 5.56 ballistics out of a 6" barrel
      >designer can't into gun design so needs it to fit in an MP5
      >gimps the shit out of his round by nearly halving the case capacity and turning it into a worse .22 TCM
      >as a final nail in the coffin, he moralgays and rabidly defends the patent to keep it off the civilian market
      I hate the British so much it's unreal

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I want my .1 caliber mach 3 pistol rounds and I want them NOW.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It's an engineering nightmare, bro. The more taper your cartridge has, the less efficiently it accelerates the bullet. You may be able to overcome it with insane pressure, but you'll need an extremely robust locking mechanism like a rotating bolt, and now your handgun is the size of a Desert Eagle.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I'm willing to go up to anything shorter than the Buntline, and up to any weight that can be aimed and fired in one strong hand.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >anything shorter than the Buntline
              For just a tiny bit more, you can do an AR bullpup conversion that would probably hit 3k fps with .223 WSSM.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                .223 WSSM uses a magnum bolt face, it's too big around even for an AR-10.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Olympic Arms developed a WSSM upper. D-tech used to build them with their parts, but when OA departed, they stepped up, sourced their own parts, and still continue to offer them:
                http://www.dtechuppers.com/ar-15-wssm-upper-receivers.html

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Holy shit I wouldn't trust a bolt with a paper thin web of material between the lugs like that thing to stand up to firing WSSMs for long. 7.62x39 bolts are bad enough about breaking.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                does anybody sell an "AR-10 bolt in an AR-15 sized package" upper at all? CMMG used to have "powerbolt" but they basically went out of business and started from scratch a few years ago

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I know, right? I want to believe it's made of some miracle alloy that can actually hold up to a steady diet of 65k; one of the full-pressure .458-.510 wildcats would make for a pretty neat thumper. But it sure looks sketchy.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The problem with taper isn't efficiency, it's because it increases bolt thrust and case elongation since the pressure pressing the case walls outwards presses the case back. This means that you need a much stronger and heavier bolt and receiver than for an untapered cartridge of the otherwise same design. The tradeoff is that taper makes extraction easier, since the case is released by the chamber when it moves back slightly; you don't have to drag the case along the chamber walls like an untapered cartridge.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Why "now" anon? Old man Eichelberger did this shit decades ago. I think there's a few .12/.222 barrels up on Gunbroker right now. Pic semi-related.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Those can reach outrageous velocity, but not 3k out of a 10 inch barrel or lower.

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Worth mentioning that a lot of cartridges start as a wildcat.. and it’s a lot easier for a motivated enthusiast to modify an existing case, than figure out how to produce a brand new one..

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Length are related to the action and magazine and has to trade with diameter in order to keep case capacity.

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I will add that short and fat cases are thermally more efficient bc less heat loss

  7. 2 weeks ago
    OC

    I'M A LITTLE CARTRIDGE
    SHORT AND STOUT
    HERE IS MY POWDER
    WATCH IT SPOUT!

    WHEN I SEE DANGER
    I SCREAM AND SHOUT
    I HAMMER MY PRIMER
    AND DEATH COMES OUT

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Look at 300blk

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You better concider your next words more carefullu

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    fat case: better for stuffing powder inside
    slim case: better for stuffing cartridge into magazine

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What about long and stout?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >17 Beyond Moon's Gravity

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >What's the point of designing a caliber to be short and stout?
    I dunno but we used, I believe they were, 9mm bullets in necked up 7,62 casings OR 7,62 bullets in necked down 9 mil casings, to shoot from an inner barrel in an M72 LAW (or KES88 as the enlightened call them). Idea was for the bullet to travel slower so you could see it fly as if it were a grenade
    So I'm thinking something similar is afoot here, or just funny oddball rounds

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >So I'm thinking something similar is afoot here
      Why would you think this?
      A spotter-tracer cartridge is meant to mimic the trajectory of some larger cartridge. The shape is immaterial. OP needs to fit into a handgun magazine. Why are you seeing a connection between these two radically different things?

  13. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    ah, 224 Boz, the most British pdw round
    I like the 10mm case version

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