Unironically better than the stuff Russians and Ukrainians are currently using in this the war. >thermal optics >thermal cloak >new comms and satellite nav >better situational awareness thanks to the new optic/sensor suite and rear-facing external camera >improved passenger comfort >storage compartments and standoff plates that act as lightweight spaced armor
But 1st tier FDF units of course have CV90s. The point of the upgrade was to extend the life of the BMP-2 fleet and bring them closer to the CV90 and Leo 2 units in terms of optical and electronic performance.
Lol OK grandpa. You don't think swapping out the Bradley for any other IFV with an ATGM would have achieved the same if not better? Dumb fuck kek
>le hypothetical vehicle swap
It is ok to admit that the Burgers made the best IFV known to man
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The burgers >talking about yourself in 3rd person
Schizo lmao
Meanwhile in reality you cannot refute the point, I'd argue most would have done better given Euro IFVs are generally better protected and faster.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>trust me
It’s very likely T54/55 and the various copies. Vietnam, India-Pakistan and the middle eastern Wars alone have more tanks killed by that model than Abrams has killed in total. Go add the numbers yourself. Then we still have to count Africa, which will likely grant us another 500-1000 kills. As the T55 is technically still in service in some countries, it’s the most successful current MBT by your metric.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Abrams
I doubt the Abrams (M1a1) has many kills given the Bradley did most of the work and the M1a2 doesn't have any tank on tank kills I don't think or can't find a source for?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Great now do it by k/d metrics
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Guy said most kills was the metric. The entire point is that kills alone are a shit metric, because it would make T54/55 a better tank than Abrams.
But thank you for your service.
>trust me
It’s very likely T54/55 and the various copies. Vietnam, India-Pakistan and the middle eastern Wars alone have more tanks killed by that model than Abrams has killed in total. Go add the numbers yourself. Then we still have to count Africa, which will likely grant us another 500-1000 kills. As the T55 is technically still in service in some countries, it’s the most successful current MBT by your metric.
>the most successful current MBT
Here I am thinking that this discussion was about IFVs, strange
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Warriortard is the American manchild from florida who has brits living in his head rent free.
Does anybody know what kind of CV90 Ukraine is getting? I've read that export versions don't usually have the 40mm cannon but usually something else like a 30mm Hägglunds E-series turret
I like the CV90 aloy but i fond it really strange that it wasn't initially designed with an integrated ATGM like the brad considering that Sweden's entire doctrine for the last 70 years was blasting russian tanks from prepared ambush positions.
Most of Sweden is in the boreal zone, with thick taiga forests. Not ideal ATGM terrain. They experimented with CV90s equipped with Bill-2 ATGMs but found the concept to be less than ideal in their environment. Finland also bought its CV90s without ATGMs and when the AT-4s and AT-5s that it's BMP-2s were equipped with reached the end of their shelf life, they decided not to replace them with anything.
Desert or tundra are of course different and vehicle-mounted ATGMs are more useful there.
The idea is probably that since the environment a CV90 operates in is so packed with foilage, handing the ATGM to smaller, easier-to-hide, low-profile infantry makes more sense. Anywhere the CV90 operates it will basically clog a road in Sweden. That's why the ATGM variants are mostly foreign
Is Sweden's terrain the reason why they opted for 40mm as the CV90's main armament?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Its a combination of factors.
The main threat that the Cv90 was made to defeat was soviet invasion forces in northern Sweden. Due to the terrain, such a force would consist of airborne troops w/helicopter support, and light/medium armor like the MTLB, BMP, some MBT's etc moving along somewhat constricted axis of advance.
So the Swedes wanted a vehicle with high mobility, decent armor and a gun that were a decent combination of HE power (for AA and infantry) and with a potent enough AT capability. Given the terrain, most engagements would be at somewhat close range and preferably from a flanking position.
They spent a few years trying out different turrets and guns, even going as high as the Bofors 57mm and as low as reusing the 20mm from the Pv302.
In the end, the 40mm was chosen as it gave good AA firepower and AP power using new shells, was an "in-house" system for Sweden with regards to development, and allowed them to pack it into a IFV within their desired weight-class.
The test-vehicle with the 25mm turret went on to become the prototype for the CV9030N for Norway, where they basically slapped on a bit more armor and a 30mm instead.
Most of Sweden is in the boreal zone, with thick taiga forests. Not ideal ATGM terrain. They experimented with CV90s equipped with Bill-2 ATGMs but found the concept to be less than ideal in their environment. Finland also bought its CV90s without ATGMs and when the AT-4s and AT-5s that it's BMP-2s were equipped with reached the end of their shelf life, they decided not to replace them with anything.
Desert or tundra are of course different and vehicle-mounted ATGMs are more useful there.
The cv-user most likely to integrate atgm's on their current fleet (bar the recent MKIV-users and the dutch MLU) would be Norway, due to the terrain found at the Finnmark plateau, but they've mostly looked at putting javs on their RWS. The idea has been floated a few times, but never gone any further than studies.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Finland also has/had TOW-2s on BV206s in Lapland, but I'm not sure if those are in service anymore or if they've been Ukraine'd. IFVs are in the south of the country, which is very forested, and do not have ATGMs. There are plenty of man-portable ATGMs, however.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yeah kinda same with Norway, they had the M113 w/Tow and CV90 with infantry and Eryx. The Tow is now gone (shame really) and the Eryx has been replaced with Javelin
The idea is probably that since the environment a CV90 operates in is so packed with foilage, handing the ATGM to smaller, easier-to-hide, low-profile infantry makes more sense. Anywhere the CV90 operates it will basically clog a road in Sweden. That's why the ATGM variants are mostly foreign
How many kinds of CV90 does Sweden use? Everywhere I look mentions CV9040 but nothing from Swe military or Gov it just states CV90.
It has a worse K/D than warrior. Go make a thread and cry about it.
The Bradley and Warrior are the only two western IFVs with lots of combat history. CV90 Marder and VCBI obviously have much less but did well. Its hard to judge by just K/Ds but it must also not be overlooked.
How many kinds of CV90 does Sweden use? Everywhere I look mentions CV9040 but nothing from Swe military or Gov it just states CV90.
[...]
The Bradley and Warrior are the only two western IFVs with lots of combat history. CV90 Marder and VCBI obviously have much less but did well. Its hard to judge by just K/Ds but it must also not be overlooked.
According to Oryx, they're getting 50CV9040s, so definitely will have the 40mm cannons
[...]
Yeh I saw that but that still doesn't provide a source directly from the Swedes it's just his blog post...
I think [...] answered it better by saying Sweden only has 40s so they must be 40s donated.
[...]
Ah did not see that, why is it 3rd? Ascod being 3rd must mean when the Ajax is finally fixed it will be pretty good then I guess.
have the ukies even started training on the CV90 yet? hope it doesn't miss out on the action..
They are going to be Swedish army service CV9040B and will be upgraded to CV9040C standard with additional armor and 3p munitions. This means the 40mm gun. My understanding is that they will serve in units with the Challenger 2.
The reason export versions don't use 40mm is because they to don't have tons of obsolete 40mm AA guns around. Originally Sweden was supposed to arm half of their CV90's with 25mm Bushmaster cannon. Then the cold war ended and their budget got slashed. 40mm gun on CV90 was a cost cutting measure.
>Jenkins made a radio call to relay the problem, saying the optics inside their Bradley weren’t working. The issue wasn’t unique to them. Before the fatal roll over, another Bradley crew, also experiencing troubles with their optics, accidentally drove into the woods. Multiple troops reported that their vehicle optics were “flaring out" and “fogging up,” or simply “going out," according to summaries of witness interviews.
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/09/28/problems-plagued-bradley-crews-before-mishap-killed-3-soldiers/ >Shit opinion
That's the problem with people like you, blissfully clueless to reality too busy tounging the ass of what you think is good without ever daring to check for yourself you dumb mother fucker.
>One (1) accident makes a combat vehicle unusable because well just because ok
How can you be this stupid and still figure out how to post on a Swiss board game collecting website?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>first he complains it only happened in combat >then he complains the optics aren't bad >Is given examples of both and still continues to post shift
Thanks for proving me 100% right. You are a fool arguing in bad faith.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You still can't provide any evidence for your outlandish claims Warriortard
what's up with borsuk having completely trash rating? it looked alright from what I saw of it
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The ratings also included shit like production logistics and financial benefits. Borsuk is not even produced right now, still only prototypes, and CV90 is an old as fuck platform that's just getting upgraded.
Though Borsuk got 0 (zero) points for "The security and protection of information and communication systems".
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
How can you have 0 (zero)??? It's as unrealistic as having 100.
Something is going on here.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
When you don't have any, you get nothing. You lose. Good day sir.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Borsuk didn't show up on trials, 30 pkt only because of amphibious skills. We need to wait little more time to comprare with others
>odd take
tracks and wheels are complementary, the prevalence of wheeled IFVs is due to the types of war western nations plan to fight, namely quick reaction forces to hot zones in eastern Europe and expeditionary operations abroad the require a lightweight chassis with high mobility that can fit into transport planes more easily. It's about getting to the fight while heavier slower forces follow on later. Wheels also are easier to maintain and operate at the expense of never get the performance that tracks get in uneven terrain or mud, not to mention in the arctic regions which makes it more attractive for poorer nations and/or nations focused on COIN. Ask the Russian's how maneuvering it's mechanized forces along paved roads has gone for them lol, you need both systems to conduct maneuver warfare successfully in all conditions.
>Germany's armed forces, the Bundeswehr, has been experiencing serious technical problems with its Puma infantry fighting vehicles, according to a report in Der Spiegel magazine on Saturday. >After a training exercise involving 18 state-of-the-art Puma infantry fighting vehicles, not a single one was left operational, the report said. >not a single one was left operational
Sure thing Hermann
They're all pretty mid that said ascod as long as the build quality isn't bad. People who like the Lynx are just retards who irrationally love kraut shit.
>A modified 2005 golf gti is the same as a 2023 gti
It's an old vehicle retard.
You still can't provide any evidence for your outlandish claims Warriortard
I gave you a source, you read it and got mad. Not my problem. Warriortard is the guy who spams warriorthreads upset about its armament then gets upset when people laugh at the M2 is that you?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>One (1) incident in training is enough to make an IFV useless
Are you pretending to be dumb?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You told me
>driver rolls it >all other IFVs cannot be rolled in combat
how are you this stupid?
here it rolled in combat (1) then I sourced you it happening again in training (2) and here in picrel (3) rolling off a truck because the optics are shit, just like the source provided states. That's without even searching for more examples so please stop moving goal posts and rage posting it's cringe and warriortard tier. The fact you came to this thread to post about it is telling enough you schizo sperg.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Three (3) accidents are just too much for a combat vehicle ok??!!
Sure buddy. Keep on coping about accidents. Fact is that your countries IFVs haven't seen any combat yet and probably never will. Once your army pops its cherry you can come back here
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>(1) >(2) >(3)
Oh no that's 3 times you shifted now!
Here's the 4th (2second google) https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/taskandpurpose.com/news/army-bradley-fighting-vehicle-rollover-investigation/%3famp?espv=1 and here's a 5th https://www.army.mil/article/1992/training_pays_off_soldiers_escape_bradley_rollover
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Still posting accident copes
It's all so tiresome. You still can't provide any evidence of your claims
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>It was one (1) incident! >OK maybe two (2) incidents! >3 >4 >5 >Now 6
Here's another
https://kdhnews.com/news/local/deadly-rollovers-fort-hood-brigade-had-2-soldiers-die-in-bradley-crashes-last-year/article_3c54df8e-f565-11ea-b01b-b748fdd574b2.html >Can't provide evidence
6 examples is plenty, every one had a fatality which is probably why they were so easy to find. Imagine how many are rolled that we don't know about.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Six (6) accidents is just too much for a combat vehicle ok!!?
Still moving the goal posts are we? I guess you really are autistic. Let me know when you can make a real argument backed up with real evidence
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>6 accidents, each resulting in multiple fatalities
Heh warriortard you are so easy to spot, simping around the Bradley in every thread.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>6 accidents, each resulting in multiple fatalities >6 examples is plenty, every one had a fatality
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
well honestly NTA but when you have over 10 times the amount of active IFVs than germany you are actually significantly more likely to have accidents with them, so saying "oh i can keep finding these examples" doesnt mean much because what you should be looking for is statistics for like, accidents per hours driven and stuff to compare them
Best one is the Puma.
Too bad it's so expensive not even the germans can really afford it.
Next is the Lynx.
Too bad it's so expensive you can buy 2-3 other IFVs for the cost of 1.
So the "best one that you can/should actually afford" is probably the CV90
CV90 competed against the Ajax IIRC. There's a few people that believe the decision to get the Ajax came down to politics though I'm not super solid on what all they think went down. It might have had something to do with production based in the U.K. with ajax. Ajax is based on the ASCOD they just royally fucked up the chassis and suspension apparently. Luckily for the Americans the MPF is different enough from the Ajax that it isn't suffering the same issues.
So they heavily modified the original chassis, much like the GDLS did with the MPF and Griffin 3 only they really dropped the ball. I did some digging and apparently the excess vibrations and noise have caused injuries and some troops even had to be discharged with hearing loss.
Specifically the issues are both electrical and mechanical. There's issues with the sprockets and the way the engine is mounted and some serious quality control issues like shitty welding etc. You can read the full report here
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11625545/Trouble-hit-Ajax-tank-finally-given-clear-pressed-service.html
according to this it's apparently working better now but given what I read in the report it sounded to me like a pretty significant redesign was needed, course I'm not a engineering fag so I'm assuming
>Quality control is understood to be especially poor throughout the first 100 hulls manufactured in Spain, but the issue has not been entirely eliminated in subsequent batches. Problems have included sections being inconsistent lengths, the sides of the hull not being parallel, and substandard welding. Fittings and furnishings have not had their attachment points drilled using jigs, resulting in the spacing of holes being uneven. >The significance of the shortcomings in quality control is that the vibration issues are not manifesting themselves in the vehicles in a uniform manner. Some hulls produce disproportionately poor performance.
It's the Spanish quality control that's causing the issues then the subsequent fixes for that are causing issues themselves. Hopefully the first batches of hulls (200+) will be fixed and the remaining 390 made correctly.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I hope they do fix it, the ajax is cute and the bongs really need this modernization to work if they're gonna keep downsizing their army
wasn't the chally 3 upgrade calling for only like 148 units? I'd hate to imagine it running into similar problems as the jax
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Me too I like the Ajax and it's capabilities are amazing. The 148 Challenger 3 is being done by Rheinmetall and BAE so it "Should" be fine. I think the total upgraded to 3 is likely to be increased but depends how many are sent to Ukraine and what is said later this week with the new budget.
Should've just gone with the Boxer.
We are the biggest user of the Boxer what do you mean? We should have used the Boxer in place of the Ajax and had no tracked recon or tracked ifv at all? No that's retarded and French.
>Fittings and furnishings have not had their attachment points drilled using jigs
imagine eyeballing the construction of a $10 million vehicle. hahaha oh wow this is Africa tier.
Have you ever been to Spain? We're do you think the Mexicans get there retardedness from.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>that's retarded and French
The British Army would give its right arm right now to have the Scorpion programme instead of this current mess
too many billion pounds have been spent for too goddamn little
the good news is that there's a way out, the bad news is that it means spending more: the Army has to develop, buy and procure yet another IFV to replace the Warrior, and hope to God that this programme doesn't fuck up the way they've fucked everything up for the past 2 decades
>Army would give right arm for scorpion
No they wouldn't, in no way would they ever deem all wheeled is better than tracked otherwise they would have just upped the Boxer order and scrapped Ajax. They are expeditionary and plan to fight anywhere unlike the French who only play in Africa (Only if the British take them though) >Army has to develop, buy and procure yet another IFV to replace the Warrior
Your speaking very confidently for somone who is completely wrong.
1. The Boxer is and always was the Warriors replacement.
2. You armoured division layout is wrong.
Ajax family replaces cvrt family
CR3
Boxer IFV
Mastif is an Mrap kek the FV series Bulldog is the APC also the Boxer will be used in this role
The Army has fucked up everything with procurement but let's not get carried away with hysteria like you seem to be.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>they would have just upped the Boxer order and scrapped Ajax
error 404: pounds not found
>The Boxer is and always was the Warriors replacement
gee, whatever happened to >no way would they ever deem all wheeled is better than tracked
also, there aren't enough Boxers at the moment
more MAY be purchased of course
but at that point, why not buy actual tracked IFVs?
>You armoured division layout is wrong
it's identical to >Ajax family replaces cvrt family >CR3 >Boxer IFV
>Mastif is an Mrap kek
Heavy Protected Patrol Vehicle
like it or not, this is what the Army has available >the FV series Bulldog is the APC
lmao
well I'll accept a few
but if we're going to mix tracks and wheels, it makes more sense to have the APC and the IFV have similar mobility, so the Boxer's cannon can support the dismounts
otherwise you have a tracked battlegroup of [Ajax + Chally 3 + Bulldog]... fuck me.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Pounds not found
Wew lad they just bought an extra 100 last year, plenty of pounds around. >gee whatever happened to all wheeled sperg out
Boxer + Ajax isn't all wheeled you have two IFVs one is tracked one isn't. >It's identical
No it isn't lol you said interm meaning temporary to be replaced the CR3 replaces the CR2 the Boxer replaces the Warrior and the Ajax replaces the CVRT which isn't here yet so it's not interim at all that's the future. >b-but mastif is apc
Again the Bulldog is the UK APC the Mastif is an MRAP. >Like it or not it's what the UK has available
Your English is wierd, again the UK has available and uses the FV432 for its APC there are nearly 1000 of them, plenty AVAILABLE kek >Well I'll accept a few
I'll accept your a wierd cunt that thought a Mastif was the UKs APC lol
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>plenty
if you know anything at all about UK defence you ought to know how very pinched the budget is >Ajax
isn't an IFV >you said interim
because I was FANTASISING that it would be interim, instead of what we are going to get, most likely >APC, MRAP, APC, MRAP
is there any real difference tho >Your English is wierd
ironic >FV432, FV432, FV432
do you know how old this fucking thing is? >your a wierd
stay in school lad
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Nta but he has a point the Mastif is definitely not the apc and the Bulldog or FV432s replacement is ARES just incase you both didn't know as it wasn't mentioned in your tiff.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Ares is not the IFV either; it's for carrying a recon team like the M3 Bradley, so it can only carry four dismounts >Mastiff is definitely not the apc
Both Mastiff and Bulldog will be used in the APC role
[...]
Isn't the French military filled with HIGH SPEED LOW DRAG MOBILE WARFARE nerds who don't even want MBTs anymore because they're not mobile enough compared to their HotWheels shit?
The French logic goes like this: >we will only fight in European cities and African desert >we don't need tracks for that >we can't afford both tracked and wheeled IFVs >pass le baguette honhonhon
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Ares isn't an IFV
Quote me where I said it was retard
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
so what did you mean by
https://i.imgur.com/TScxN49.jpg
Nta but he has a point the Mastif is definitely not the apc and the Bulldog or FV432s replacement is ARES just incase you both didn't know as it wasn't mentioned in your tiff.
>the Bulldog or FV432s replacement is ARES
eh, mong?
Bulldog is fulfilling the APC / IFV role in armoured battlegroups. Ares is NOT going to replace it in that role. Suck my dick.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
https://i.imgur.com/TScxN49.jpg
Nta but he has a point the Mastif is definitely not the apc and the Bulldog or FV432s replacement is ARES just incase you both didn't know as it wasn't mentioned in your tiff.
neither of you know whats fucking replacing the bulldog they arent even STARTING procurement till 2025
>plenty
if you know anything at all about UK defence you ought to know how very pinched the budget is >Ajax
isn't an IFV >you said interim
because I was FANTASISING that it would be interim, instead of what we are going to get, most likely >APC, MRAP, APC, MRAP
is there any real difference tho >Your English is wierd
ironic >FV432, FV432, FV432
do you know how old this fucking thing is? >your a wierd
stay in school lad
>is there a difference between apc and mrap
role is all there is really, apcs are a massively broad category that doesnt really mean anything anymore
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The boxer was not meant to replace Warrior, Warrior was supposed to get a new turret with 40mm cannon but it got cancelled.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>We should have used the Boxer in place of the Ajax and had no tracked recon or tracked ifv at all?
French IFVs at least work, the Scorpion program was very successful.
Also they make a tracked Boxer.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Post a modern French tracked AFV.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
https://i.imgur.com/tCDg9qT.png
>We should have used the Boxer in place of the Ajax and had no tracked recon or tracked ifv at all?
French IFVs at least work, the Scorpion program was very successful.
Also they make a tracked Boxer.
Isn't the French military filled with HIGH SPEED LOW DRAG MOBILE WARFARE nerds who don't even want MBTs anymore because they're not mobile enough compared to their HotWheels shit?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
That's right.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
That's always been the french way. Look for instance at their navy during the Age of Sail. While, say, the brits focused on having the cheapest good-enough boats (for instance using lower quality cannons) because they thought the most important part of naval warfare was coordination between boats, so their core motivation was to ensure their boats were practically never alone, and the spaniards just overgunned their boats to a frankly comical degree (the most egregious case being the Santisima Trinidad, the largest boat of its time, which was overgunned so hard it basically became a port defense because trying to sail it to high seas caused it to start twisting. And when the spaniard noticed this they decided what they should do is take advantage of the fact it wouldn't need so much storage if it wasn't going on long trips to just add even more cannons.), the French on the other hand focused on having the fastest boats possible with the longest range they could so they could keep "tactically retreating" while pelting at the enemy from afar.
The white flag memes aren't even jokes, if french baguette history tells us anything is they WILL retreat no matter what. Even when they win they do it by fleeing and then shooting at you from further away. They're spineless through and through.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>the brits focused on having the cheapest good-enough boats
That was more of an operational requirement due to their global defence commitments
Also, British build quality was a meme (Forty Thieves' notwithstanding) and French build quality overhyped, RN boats were actually more resilient due to using properly seasoned wood and French boats suffered due to long stays in port under blockade
This is borne out by the higher maintenance and repair costs of captured French 74s versus domestically-built British 74s in Admiralty records
Also, the French cheaped out on boat supplies while the British were nearly autistic about quality control. Memes about bad shipboard food in this era are most likely attributable to poorer navies like the French and merchant ships
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I always thought France's APC and IFV philosophy stemmed from their heavy usage of armored cars.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>French IFVs work
Did I say they didn't? Don't be fragile. >Also they make tracked Boxer
They do but we haven't ordered any 'yet' so it was irrelevant to bring it up.
Tl:Dr wasn't having a dig at the quality of the French vehicles just how they choose/plan to use them and how wheeled only doesn't work for everyone.
https://i.imgur.com/JvXPDmA.png
I'm all for shitting on the Spanish, but can we sppreciate how the Spanish Ascod has performed above average, and not only do they consistently rate above average every time Iron Spear comes around, but indeed they tend to be above the Austrians using nominally the same vehicle.
And yet somehow only the chassis sent to UK to be turned into Ajax are poor quality and yet the whole batch is indeed africa tier eyeballing shit? And only the UK is reporting this.
Just saying, it seems like excuses are being made by those who know they can pass the responsibility onto someone else. Something bonglanders excell at.
>And only the UK reporting this
If your familiar with how criticism works in the UK you would realise that GOV and Industry do not sing the same tune and will eagerly blame each other when given the opertunity. The fact the Gov is saying this, GDUK and RUSI whom I quoted directly from are saying the same thing means it's literally shit Spanish workmanship. Hardly unbelievable is it? >Something bonglanders excell at
Such as? Sounds like you had a genuine question then ruined it with bad faith retardism at the end.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I'm all for shitting on the Spanish, but can we sppreciate how the Spanish Ascod has performed above average, and not only do they consistently rate above average every time Iron Spear comes around, but indeed they tend to be above the Austrians using nominally the same vehicle.
And yet somehow only the chassis sent to UK to be turned into Ajax are poor quality and yet the whole batch is indeed africa tier eyeballing shit? And only the UK is reporting this.
Just saying, it seems like excuses are being made by those who know they can pass the responsibility onto someone else. Something bonglanders excell at.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Should've just gone with the Boxer.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Fittings and furnishings have not had their attachment points drilled using jigs
imagine eyeballing the construction of a $10 million vehicle. hahaha oh wow this is Africa tier.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
is there a reason other than cost that they do not just rebuild the 100 hulls properly and remount all the engine/equipment on the correctly constructed hulls.
The hulls are expensive, but not he majority of the costs of the complete vehicle.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The hulls are expensive, but not he majority of the costs
it would still be a third again the cost at least, making a 10 million pound vehicle a 13 million pound one
the design team (at least) aren't retards, they'll want to find a solution that's cheaper
besides, the problem with the vibration and noise is a design problem, not a build quality problem
Ajax IS the ASCOD 2 >why not CV90
possibly because CV90 is a BAE product and BAE and the MOD were/are at loggerheads over past shit like the Rivers
how could they fuck up the ASCOD? It's already a working system in the Spanish and Austrian armies
Because despite the branding, Ajax and ASCOD are hugely different. Same with CV90 - you think CV90 build in 1991 and new-build CV90 Mk4 is the same? Hah lol. Maybe only the hull form and some ancillary systems are. Ajax is very different from ASCOD, it would in fact take major redesigning to change an Ajax Scout Vehicle back into an IFV.
Anyway, rumour has it that all the secret gizmos the MOD stuffed into the ASCOD hull to make the Ajax the epic armoured scout of the future overburdened the suspension.
wheeled IFV, I guess
but for me, a proper IFV is tracked
IMO its purely doctrinal/situational. You can make a wheeled IFV work if it's equipped to stay and fight and support the dismounts and vice versa.
Though there is some argument to be made that tracked is just gonna perform better in all conditions concerning terrain, for expeditionary armies like the U.S. that's worth the added complexity and cost of maintenance.
If you're some mid east or African sahel nation plinking militants in vast open plains/deserts then you could probably get away with a pressing what would be considered an underarmed and armored APC to most armies who are built for peer conflict, into an IFV roll. Shit could probably get away with an unarmored Hilux at that point.
wheeled IFV, I guess
but for me, a proper IFV is tracked
>a proper IFV is tracked
The difference is increasingly academic, especially as fighting revolves around holding cities
https://i.imgur.com/U7n43ZH.jpg
[...]
IMO its purely doctrinal/situational. You can make a wheeled IFV work if it's equipped to stay and fight and support the dismounts and vice versa.
Though there is some argument to be made that tracked is just gonna perform better in all conditions concerning terrain, for expeditionary armies like the U.S. that's worth the added complexity and cost of maintenance.
If you're some mid east or African sahel nation plinking militants in vast open plains/deserts then you could probably get away with a pressing what would be considered an underarmed and armored APC to most armies who are built for peer conflict, into an IFV roll. Shit could probably get away with an unarmored Hilux at that point.
>roll
ROLE, dammit >chart
good one >tracked is just gonna perform better in all conditions concerning terrain
wrong
these days it appears the only advantages a tracked IFV offers is on mud
Yeh I guess but its not a good one or anywhere near the best Euro ifv.
Finnish BMP-2
Unironically better than the stuff Russians and Ukrainians are currently using in this the war.
>thermal optics
>thermal cloak
>new comms and satellite nav
>better situational awareness thanks to the new optic/sensor suite and rear-facing external camera
>improved passenger comfort
>storage compartments and standoff plates that act as lightweight spaced armor
But 1st tier FDF units of course have CV90s. The point of the upgrade was to extend the life of the BMP-2 fleet and bring them closer to the CV90 and Leo 2 units in terms of optical and electronic performance.
Jeep wrangler with a BMG and ERA
>ERA
??
BMP-2
Volkswagen Passat
Underrated
CV90
>He has only twenty-four (24) round ready to fire
Literal bong-tier retardation
>Laughs in American
>Has one of the worst IFVs in service
Nice self own kek
>one of the worst IFVs in service
The Bradley has more kills than all euro IFVs combined. cope, seethe, prostate you dumbass
Kraut IFV by far superior
>Kraut IFV
The Krauts have zero (0) seconds of combat experience since 1945. Try again sweetie
How many countries are using it?
How many are in existence?
How many hours of combat has it seen?
How many kills does it have?
And either T54/55 or T72 has the most tank kills of all in service tanks. Doesn’t make it the best tank, though.
>Trust me bro
>le hypothetical vehicle swap
It is ok to admit that the Burgers made the best IFV known to man
>The burgers
>talking about yourself in 3rd person
Schizo lmao
Meanwhile in reality you cannot refute the point, I'd argue most would have done better given Euro IFVs are generally better protected and faster.
>trust me
It’s very likely T54/55 and the various copies. Vietnam, India-Pakistan and the middle eastern Wars alone have more tanks killed by that model than Abrams has killed in total. Go add the numbers yourself. Then we still have to count Africa, which will likely grant us another 500-1000 kills. As the T55 is technically still in service in some countries, it’s the most successful current MBT by your metric.
>Abrams
I doubt the Abrams (M1a1) has many kills given the Bradley did most of the work and the M1a2 doesn't have any tank on tank kills I don't think or can't find a source for?
Great now do it by k/d metrics
Guy said most kills was the metric. The entire point is that kills alone are a shit metric, because it would make T54/55 a better tank than Abrams.
But thank you for your service.
Lol OK grandpa. You don't think swapping out the Bradley for any other IFV with an ATGM would have achieved the same if not better? Dumb fuck kek
It has a worse K/D than warrior. Go make a thread and cry about it.
Hello Warriortard. Staying up a bit late tonight?
>the most successful current MBT
Here I am thinking that this discussion was about IFVs, strange
Warriortard is the American manchild from florida who has brits living in his head rent free.
At least the chain gun fires continuously
Until somone throws a rock at it and it explodes or the driver rolls it
>driver rolls it
>all other IFVs cannot be rolled in combat
how are you this stupid?
>rolled in combat
>rolled in training
>known for rolling because of bad optics
Again, you have a fragile ego arguing without logic.
>has the best service record
>Is the most destroyed western ifv
Cherry picking facts doesn't help your case only your fragile ego
>is the most destroyed because it's seen the most combat by far
Hurrr fucking durr
Cmon mate, ya didnt even defend your bongmobile
>euros are reduced to just making shit up
>all those seething mutt replies
Does anybody know what kind of CV90 Ukraine is getting? I've read that export versions don't usually have the 40mm cannon but usually something else like a 30mm Hägglunds E-series turret
I like the CV90 aloy but i fond it really strange that it wasn't initially designed with an integrated ATGM like the brad considering that Sweden's entire doctrine for the last 70 years was blasting russian tanks from prepared ambush positions.
>here's your ATGM terrain, bro
ATGM tards btfo
Bofors chads rejoice
Is Sweden's terrain the reason why they opted for 40mm as the CV90's main armament?
Its a combination of factors.
The main threat that the Cv90 was made to defeat was soviet invasion forces in northern Sweden. Due to the terrain, such a force would consist of airborne troops w/helicopter support, and light/medium armor like the MTLB, BMP, some MBT's etc moving along somewhat constricted axis of advance.
So the Swedes wanted a vehicle with high mobility, decent armor and a gun that were a decent combination of HE power (for AA and infantry) and with a potent enough AT capability. Given the terrain, most engagements would be at somewhat close range and preferably from a flanking position.
They spent a few years trying out different turrets and guns, even going as high as the Bofors 57mm and as low as reusing the 20mm from the Pv302.
In the end, the 40mm was chosen as it gave good AA firepower and AP power using new shells, was an "in-house" system for Sweden with regards to development, and allowed them to pack it into a IFV within their desired weight-class.
The test-vehicle with the 25mm turret went on to become the prototype for the CV9030N for Norway, where they basically slapped on a bit more armor and a 30mm instead.
>rubs hands in hebrew
Most of Sweden is in the boreal zone, with thick taiga forests. Not ideal ATGM terrain. They experimented with CV90s equipped with Bill-2 ATGMs but found the concept to be less than ideal in their environment. Finland also bought its CV90s without ATGMs and when the AT-4s and AT-5s that it's BMP-2s were equipped with reached the end of their shelf life, they decided not to replace them with anything.
Desert or tundra are of course different and vehicle-mounted ATGMs are more useful there.
The cv-user most likely to integrate atgm's on their current fleet (bar the recent MKIV-users and the dutch MLU) would be Norway, due to the terrain found at the Finnmark plateau, but they've mostly looked at putting javs on their RWS. The idea has been floated a few times, but never gone any further than studies.
Finland also has/had TOW-2s on BV206s in Lapland, but I'm not sure if those are in service anymore or if they've been Ukraine'd. IFVs are in the south of the country, which is very forested, and do not have ATGMs. There are plenty of man-portable ATGMs, however.
Yeah kinda same with Norway, they had the M113 w/Tow and CV90 with infantry and Eryx. The Tow is now gone (shame really) and the Eryx has been replaced with Javelin
The idea is probably that since the environment a CV90 operates in is so packed with foilage, handing the ATGM to smaller, easier-to-hide, low-profile infantry makes more sense. Anywhere the CV90 operates it will basically clog a road in Sweden. That's why the ATGM variants are mostly foreign
all swedish cv90 have 40mm.
How many kinds of CV90 does Sweden use? Everywhere I look mentions CV9040 but nothing from Swe military or Gov it just states CV90.
The Bradley and Warrior are the only two western IFVs with lots of combat history. CV90 Marder and VCBI obviously have much less but did well. Its hard to judge by just K/Ds but it must also not be overlooked.
sweden has tons of different variants.
a/b/c are the normal cv90s. i would assume they sent the cv90a to ukraine since they are the most numerous.
CV9040C
According to Oryx, they're getting 50CV9040s, so definitely will have the 40mm cannons
50+ CV9040s*
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html
Yeh I saw that but that still doesn't provide a source directly from the Swedes it's just his blog post...
I think
answered it better by saying Sweden only has 40s so they must be 40s donated.
Ah did not see that, why is it 3rd? Ascod being 3rd must mean when the Ajax is finally fixed it will be pretty good then I guess.
have the ukies even started training on the CV90 yet? hope it doesn't miss out on the action..
They are going to be Swedish army service CV9040B and will be upgraded to CV9040C standard with additional armor and 3p munitions. This means the 40mm gun. My understanding is that they will serve in units with the Challenger 2.
No, they are the 50 or so CV9040C / E variants already in swedish stock
Source?
The reason export versions don't use 40mm is because they to don't have tons of obsolete 40mm AA guns around. Originally Sweden was supposed to arm half of their CV90's with 25mm Bushmaster cannon. Then the cold war ended and their budget got slashed. 40mm gun on CV90 was a cost cutting measure.
hopefully they give Ukrainians a shit load of ammo
you want to belt feed these?
Yes
>known for rolling because of bad optics
Got a source besides your ass for that shit opinion?
>Jenkins made a radio call to relay the problem, saying the optics inside their Bradley weren’t working. The issue wasn’t unique to them. Before the fatal roll over, another Bradley crew, also experiencing troubles with their optics, accidentally drove into the woods. Multiple troops reported that their vehicle optics were “flaring out" and “fogging up,” or simply “going out," according to summaries of witness interviews.
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/09/28/problems-plagued-bradley-crews-before-mishap-killed-3-soldiers/
>Shit opinion
That's the problem with people like you, blissfully clueless to reality too busy tounging the ass of what you think is good without ever daring to check for yourself you dumb mother fucker.
>One (1) accident makes a combat vehicle unusable because well just because ok
How can you be this stupid and still figure out how to post on a Swiss board game collecting website?
>first he complains it only happened in combat
>then he complains the optics aren't bad
>Is given examples of both and still continues to post shift
Thanks for proving me 100% right. You are a fool arguing in bad faith.
You still can't provide any evidence for your outlandish claims Warriortard
>Yes
You're gonna have three separate feeds for three different shell types?
>three different shell types?
An IFV only need two types of ammo
Damn i thought soldier were more buffed, this motherfucker is so thin it would even look good in a dress and make up
Military favors stamina over strength.
look for some photos from vietnam war, only guys like 65-75 kg. Muscles above some lvl are useless and only use oxygen
The rounds for the L70 are even longer.
>needs more than 6(x4) rounds to hit his target
ngmi pistol fag
>needs more than a dozen shots to destroy an enemy
25mm moment
CV90 / Strf 9040
ZE GERMANS. Only 20 million per pop. More than an Abrams.
Puma
Obviously Lynx
I wish this trend would fuck off already
That camo looks like jpg artifacts.
That's the point of that cammo.
>British tank in Mexican camo
Wat
Best In service? CV90
Best coming into service? Lynx
Best combat record? Warrior unironically
Lynx looks hot in that image tho CV90 'zoomer' camo makes it look retarded.
CV90 hands down
CV90 let no one tell you otherwise
Doesn't even Matter. Every one of These are By lightyears better what the russisands or the chinks can field
>his IFV doesn't even have integrated APS
Lmao.
Depends. Where do you want use it, and what are you fighting?
Answer the questions
How many destroyed 0
How fast 70kph
How protected very
Now you
Just answer them anon, it can't be that hard
1.CV90
2.Puma
3.Boxer
Lynx will be number 1. When in service.
>Lynx will be number 1. When in service.
lmao
BORSUKBROS...
Why did Borsuk do so bad?
They didnt even have for testing since its a prototype, they just randomly gave it 30 points because it can swim and thats it
what's up with borsuk having completely trash rating? it looked alright from what I saw of it
The ratings also included shit like production logistics and financial benefits. Borsuk is not even produced right now, still only prototypes, and CV90 is an old as fuck platform that's just getting upgraded.
Though Borsuk got 0 (zero) points for "The security and protection of information and communication systems".
How can you have 0 (zero)??? It's as unrealistic as having 100.
Something is going on here.
When you don't have any, you get nothing. You lose. Good day sir.
Borsuk didn't show up on trials, 30 pkt only because of amphibious skills. We need to wait little more time to comprare with others
>the retarted slovak point meme appears
What modern IFV's are currently active against Russia today ?
Bradley, that's about it I think.
Bore Suck never made it to the tests iirc, it got 30 points for bothering to sign up.
WHY EVEN GIVE US POINTS NOW OUR APC LOOKS LIKE MONKEY CACA WHEN NUMBERS ARE COMPARED LIKE THAT WITHOUT CONTEXT
It's definitely going to be used as shitposting material for the next 50 years at least.
https://mncne.nato.int/newsroom/news/2020/iron-spear-2020
According to Iron Spear competition, the nords take the prize with the CV90.
Not a nord myself nor do I particularly like the cv90, but that's the closest we'll get to hard data.
It's British now lol
Boxer is great
>Wheeled is future
Dumb statement. You need both to be effective.
Boxer. Wheeled IFVs are the future.
A challenger appears
>25mm
>Worse protection
>Worse sensors
Nice but not a Challenger better than the Dragoon for sure though.
>odd take
tracks and wheels are complementary, the prevalence of wheeled IFVs is due to the types of war western nations plan to fight, namely quick reaction forces to hot zones in eastern Europe and expeditionary operations abroad the require a lightweight chassis with high mobility that can fit into transport planes more easily. It's about getting to the fight while heavier slower forces follow on later. Wheels also are easier to maintain and operate at the expense of never get the performance that tracks get in uneven terrain or mud, not to mention in the arctic regions which makes it more attractive for poorer nations and/or nations focused on COIN. Ask the Russian's how maneuvering it's mechanized forces along paved roads has gone for them lol, you need both systems to conduct maneuver warfare successfully in all conditions.
Guys plz stop getting baited by the amerimutt schizo OP said yuro so he's not even in the race he's just derailing.
>Germany's armed forces, the Bundeswehr, has been experiencing serious technical problems with its Puma infantry fighting vehicles, according to a report in Der Spiegel magazine on Saturday.
>After a training exercise involving 18 state-of-the-art Puma infantry fighting vehicles, not a single one was left operational, the report said.
>not a single one was left operational
Sure thing Hermann
The CV9040C will be the same vehicles they sent to Afghanistan. Meaning the air-conditioned gucci variants.
they dont have 50 of those
Marder
They're all pretty mid that said ascod as long as the build quality isn't bad. People who like the Lynx are just retards who irrationally love kraut shit.
Lynx is the newest Euro-made IFV.
Wrong. That's the Dragón, made amongst others by Ascod.
>Mowag with a new turret
Imbecile he said new ifv not turret
>Different internals
>Different armor
>Modified structure
>ItS JusT A MoWag
Cope and seethe, wehraboo. Your wunderwaffe isn't even good.
>A modified 2005 golf gti is the same as a 2023 gti
It's an old vehicle retard.
I gave you a source, you read it and got mad. Not my problem. Warriortard is the guy who spams warriorthreads upset about its armament then gets upset when people laugh at the M2 is that you?
>One (1) incident in training is enough to make an IFV useless
Are you pretending to be dumb?
You told me
here it rolled in combat (1) then I sourced you it happening again in training (2) and here in picrel (3) rolling off a truck because the optics are shit, just like the source provided states. That's without even searching for more examples so please stop moving goal posts and rage posting it's cringe and warriortard tier. The fact you came to this thread to post about it is telling enough you schizo sperg.
>Three (3) accidents are just too much for a combat vehicle ok??!!
Sure buddy. Keep on coping about accidents. Fact is that your countries IFVs haven't seen any combat yet and probably never will. Once your army pops its cherry you can come back here
>(1)
>(2)
>(3)
Oh no that's 3 times you shifted now!
Here's the 4th (2second google) https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/taskandpurpose.com/news/army-bradley-fighting-vehicle-rollover-investigation/%3famp?espv=1 and here's a 5th https://www.army.mil/article/1992/training_pays_off_soldiers_escape_bradley_rollover
>Still posting accident copes
It's all so tiresome. You still can't provide any evidence of your claims
>It was one (1) incident!
>OK maybe two (2) incidents!
>3
>4
>5
>Now 6
Here's another
https://kdhnews.com/news/local/deadly-rollovers-fort-hood-brigade-had-2-soldiers-die-in-bradley-crashes-last-year/article_3c54df8e-f565-11ea-b01b-b748fdd574b2.html
>Can't provide evidence
6 examples is plenty, every one had a fatality which is probably why they were so easy to find. Imagine how many are rolled that we don't know about.
Six (6) accidents is just too much for a combat vehicle ok!!?
Still moving the goal posts are we? I guess you really are autistic. Let me know when you can make a real argument backed up with real evidence
>6 accidents, each resulting in multiple fatalities
Heh warriortard you are so easy to spot, simping around the Bradley in every thread.
>6 accidents, each resulting in multiple fatalities
>6 examples is plenty, every one had a fatality
well honestly NTA but when you have over 10 times the amount of active IFVs than germany you are actually significantly more likely to have accidents with them, so saying "oh i can keep finding these examples" doesnt mean much because what you should be looking for is statistics for like, accidents per hours driven and stuff to compare them
Based. Ascod's toys are kino af and perform above average in competitions.
CV90. There's no question anything else from euroland is retarded
Best one is the Puma.
Too bad it's so expensive not even the germans can really afford it.
Next is the Lynx.
Too bad it's so expensive you can buy 2-3 other IFVs for the cost of 1.
So the "best one that you can/should actually afford" is probably the CV90
Borsuk.
Borsuk is best IFV.
clearly not
The ajax is never going to be finished is it bros...
why isn't Britain just getting the ASCOD or CV90?
CV90 competed against the Ajax IIRC. There's a few people that believe the decision to get the Ajax came down to politics though I'm not super solid on what all they think went down. It might have had something to do with production based in the U.K. with ajax. Ajax is based on the ASCOD they just royally fucked up the chassis and suspension apparently. Luckily for the Americans the MPF is different enough from the Ajax that it isn't suffering the same issues.
how could they fuck up the ASCOD? It's already a working system in the Spanish and Austrian armies
So they heavily modified the original chassis, much like the GDLS did with the MPF and Griffin 3 only they really dropped the ball. I did some digging and apparently the excess vibrations and noise have caused injuries and some troops even had to be discharged with hearing loss.
Specifically the issues are both electrical and mechanical. There's issues with the sprockets and the way the engine is mounted and some serious quality control issues like shitty welding etc. You can read the full report here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ajax-noise-and-vibration-review/ajax-noise-and-vibration-review
Interesting stuff.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11625545/Trouble-hit-Ajax-tank-finally-given-clear-pressed-service.html
according to this it's apparently working better now but given what I read in the report it sounded to me like a pretty significant redesign was needed, course I'm not a engineering fag so I'm assuming
>Quality control is understood to be especially poor throughout the first 100 hulls manufactured in Spain, but the issue has not been entirely eliminated in subsequent batches. Problems have included sections being inconsistent lengths, the sides of the hull not being parallel, and substandard welding. Fittings and furnishings have not had their attachment points drilled using jigs, resulting in the spacing of holes being uneven.
>The significance of the shortcomings in quality control is that the vibration issues are not manifesting themselves in the vehicles in a uniform manner. Some hulls produce disproportionately poor performance.
It's the Spanish quality control that's causing the issues then the subsequent fixes for that are causing issues themselves. Hopefully the first batches of hulls (200+) will be fixed and the remaining 390 made correctly.
I hope they do fix it, the ajax is cute and the bongs really need this modernization to work if they're gonna keep downsizing their army
wasn't the chally 3 upgrade calling for only like 148 units? I'd hate to imagine it running into similar problems as the jax
Me too I like the Ajax and it's capabilities are amazing. The 148 Challenger 3 is being done by Rheinmetall and BAE so it "Should" be fine. I think the total upgraded to 3 is likely to be increased but depends how many are sent to Ukraine and what is said later this week with the new budget.
We are the biggest user of the Boxer what do you mean? We should have used the Boxer in place of the Ajax and had no tracked recon or tracked ifv at all? No that's retarded and French.
Have you ever been to Spain? We're do you think the Mexicans get there retardedness from.
>that's retarded and French
The British Army would give its right arm right now to have the Scorpion programme instead of this current mess
too many billion pounds have been spent for too goddamn little
the good news is that there's a way out, the bad news is that it means spending more: the Army has to develop, buy and procure yet another IFV to replace the Warrior, and hope to God that this programme doesn't fuck up the way they've fucked everything up for the past 2 decades
>British armoured division (interim)
Ajax "scout"
Challenger 3
Boxer IFV
Mastiff APCs
>British armoured division (future)
Ajax "scout"
Challenger 3
Future IFV (tracked)
>Army would give right arm for scorpion
No they wouldn't, in no way would they ever deem all wheeled is better than tracked otherwise they would have just upped the Boxer order and scrapped Ajax. They are expeditionary and plan to fight anywhere unlike the French who only play in Africa (Only if the British take them though)
>Army has to develop, buy and procure yet another IFV to replace the Warrior
Your speaking very confidently for somone who is completely wrong.
1. The Boxer is and always was the Warriors replacement.
2. You armoured division layout is wrong.
Ajax family replaces cvrt family
CR3
Boxer IFV
Mastif is an Mrap kek the FV series Bulldog is the APC also the Boxer will be used in this role
The Army has fucked up everything with procurement but let's not get carried away with hysteria like you seem to be.
>they would have just upped the Boxer order and scrapped Ajax
error 404: pounds not found
>The Boxer is and always was the Warriors replacement
gee, whatever happened to
>no way would they ever deem all wheeled is better than tracked
also, there aren't enough Boxers at the moment
more MAY be purchased of course
but at that point, why not buy actual tracked IFVs?
>You armoured division layout is wrong
it's identical to
>Ajax family replaces cvrt family
>CR3
>Boxer IFV
>Mastif is an Mrap kek
Heavy Protected Patrol Vehicle
like it or not, this is what the Army has available
>the FV series Bulldog is the APC
lmao
well I'll accept a few
but if we're going to mix tracks and wheels, it makes more sense to have the APC and the IFV have similar mobility, so the Boxer's cannon can support the dismounts
otherwise you have a tracked battlegroup of [Ajax + Chally 3 + Bulldog]... fuck me.
>Pounds not found
Wew lad they just bought an extra 100 last year, plenty of pounds around.
>gee whatever happened to all wheeled sperg out
Boxer + Ajax isn't all wheeled you have two IFVs one is tracked one isn't.
>It's identical
No it isn't lol you said interm meaning temporary to be replaced the CR3 replaces the CR2 the Boxer replaces the Warrior and the Ajax replaces the CVRT which isn't here yet so it's not interim at all that's the future.
>b-but mastif is apc
Again the Bulldog is the UK APC the Mastif is an MRAP.
>Like it or not it's what the UK has available
Your English is wierd, again the UK has available and uses the FV432 for its APC there are nearly 1000 of them, plenty AVAILABLE kek
>Well I'll accept a few
I'll accept your a wierd cunt that thought a Mastif was the UKs APC lol
>plenty
if you know anything at all about UK defence you ought to know how very pinched the budget is
>Ajax
isn't an IFV
>you said interim
because I was FANTASISING that it would be interim, instead of what we are going to get, most likely
>APC, MRAP, APC, MRAP
is there any real difference tho
>Your English is wierd
ironic
>FV432, FV432, FV432
do you know how old this fucking thing is?
>your a wierd
stay in school lad
Nta but he has a point the Mastif is definitely not the apc and the Bulldog or FV432s replacement is ARES just incase you both didn't know as it wasn't mentioned in your tiff.
Ares is not the IFV either; it's for carrying a recon team like the M3 Bradley, so it can only carry four dismounts
>Mastiff is definitely not the apc
Both Mastiff and Bulldog will be used in the APC role
The French logic goes like this:
>we will only fight in European cities and African desert
>we don't need tracks for that
>we can't afford both tracked and wheeled IFVs
>pass le baguette honhonhon
>Ares isn't an IFV
Quote me where I said it was retard
so what did you mean by
>the Bulldog or FV432s replacement is ARES
eh, mong?
Bulldog is fulfilling the APC / IFV role in armoured battlegroups. Ares is NOT going to replace it in that role. Suck my dick.
neither of you know whats fucking replacing the bulldog they arent even STARTING procurement till 2025
>is there a difference between apc and mrap
role is all there is really, apcs are a massively broad category that doesnt really mean anything anymore
The boxer was not meant to replace Warrior, Warrior was supposed to get a new turret with 40mm cannon but it got cancelled.
>We should have used the Boxer in place of the Ajax and had no tracked recon or tracked ifv at all?
French IFVs at least work, the Scorpion program was very successful.
Also they make a tracked Boxer.
Post a modern French tracked AFV.
Isn't the French military filled with HIGH SPEED LOW DRAG MOBILE WARFARE nerds who don't even want MBTs anymore because they're not mobile enough compared to their HotWheels shit?
That's right.
That's always been the french way. Look for instance at their navy during the Age of Sail. While, say, the brits focused on having the cheapest good-enough boats (for instance using lower quality cannons) because they thought the most important part of naval warfare was coordination between boats, so their core motivation was to ensure their boats were practically never alone, and the spaniards just overgunned their boats to a frankly comical degree (the most egregious case being the Santisima Trinidad, the largest boat of its time, which was overgunned so hard it basically became a port defense because trying to sail it to high seas caused it to start twisting. And when the spaniard noticed this they decided what they should do is take advantage of the fact it wouldn't need so much storage if it wasn't going on long trips to just add even more cannons.), the French on the other hand focused on having the fastest boats possible with the longest range they could so they could keep "tactically retreating" while pelting at the enemy from afar.
The white flag memes aren't even jokes, if french baguette history tells us anything is they WILL retreat no matter what. Even when they win they do it by fleeing and then shooting at you from further away. They're spineless through and through.
>the brits focused on having the cheapest good-enough boats
That was more of an operational requirement due to their global defence commitments
Also, British build quality was a meme (Forty Thieves' notwithstanding) and French build quality overhyped, RN boats were actually more resilient due to using properly seasoned wood and French boats suffered due to long stays in port under blockade
This is borne out by the higher maintenance and repair costs of captured French 74s versus domestically-built British 74s in Admiralty records
Also, the French cheaped out on boat supplies while the British were nearly autistic about quality control. Memes about bad shipboard food in this era are most likely attributable to poorer navies like the French and merchant ships
I always thought France's APC and IFV philosophy stemmed from their heavy usage of armored cars.
>French IFVs work
Did I say they didn't? Don't be fragile.
>Also they make tracked Boxer
They do but we haven't ordered any 'yet' so it was irrelevant to bring it up.
Tl:Dr wasn't having a dig at the quality of the French vehicles just how they choose/plan to use them and how wheeled only doesn't work for everyone.
>And only the UK reporting this
If your familiar with how criticism works in the UK you would realise that GOV and Industry do not sing the same tune and will eagerly blame each other when given the opertunity. The fact the Gov is saying this, GDUK and RUSI whom I quoted directly from are saying the same thing means it's literally shit Spanish workmanship. Hardly unbelievable is it?
>Something bonglanders excell at
Such as? Sounds like you had a genuine question then ruined it with bad faith retardism at the end.
I'm all for shitting on the Spanish, but can we sppreciate how the Spanish Ascod has performed above average, and not only do they consistently rate above average every time Iron Spear comes around, but indeed they tend to be above the Austrians using nominally the same vehicle.
And yet somehow only the chassis sent to UK to be turned into Ajax are poor quality and yet the whole batch is indeed africa tier eyeballing shit? And only the UK is reporting this.
Just saying, it seems like excuses are being made by those who know they can pass the responsibility onto someone else. Something bonglanders excell at.
Should've just gone with the Boxer.
>Fittings and furnishings have not had their attachment points drilled using jigs
imagine eyeballing the construction of a $10 million vehicle. hahaha oh wow this is Africa tier.
is there a reason other than cost that they do not just rebuild the 100 hulls properly and remount all the engine/equipment on the correctly constructed hulls.
The hulls are expensive, but not he majority of the costs of the complete vehicle.
>The hulls are expensive, but not he majority of the costs
it would still be a third again the cost at least, making a 10 million pound vehicle a 13 million pound one
the design team (at least) aren't retards, they'll want to find a solution that's cheaper
besides, the problem with the vibration and noise is a design problem, not a build quality problem
Ajax IS the ASCOD 2
>why not CV90
possibly because CV90 is a BAE product and BAE and the MOD were/are at loggerheads over past shit like the Rivers
Because despite the branding, Ajax and ASCOD are hugely different. Same with CV90 - you think CV90 build in 1991 and new-build CV90 Mk4 is the same? Hah lol. Maybe only the hull form and some ancillary systems are. Ajax is very different from ASCOD, it would in fact take major redesigning to change an Ajax Scout Vehicle back into an IFV.
Anyway, rumour has it that all the secret gizmos the MOD stuffed into the ASCOD hull to make the Ajax the epic armoured scout of the future overburdened the suspension.
The latest CV90, probably
does Stryker Dragoon count as an IFV?
wheeled IFV, I guess
but for me, a proper IFV is tracked
IMO its purely doctrinal/situational. You can make a wheeled IFV work if it's equipped to stay and fight and support the dismounts and vice versa.
Though there is some argument to be made that tracked is just gonna perform better in all conditions concerning terrain, for expeditionary armies like the U.S. that's worth the added complexity and cost of maintenance.
If you're some mid east or African sahel nation plinking militants in vast open plains/deserts then you could probably get away with a pressing what would be considered an underarmed and armored APC to most armies who are built for peer conflict, into an IFV roll. Shit could probably get away with an unarmored Hilux at that point.
So the kaiten torpedo is the best APC.
Yeh I guess but its not a good one or anywhere near the best Euro ifv.
It should
>a proper IFV is tracked
The difference is increasingly academic, especially as fighting revolves around holding cities
>roll
ROLE, dammit
>chart
good one
>tracked is just gonna perform better in all conditions concerning terrain
wrong
these days it appears the only advantages a tracked IFV offers is on mud
Shit opinion discarded, retard
nah it's a dire APC
CV90 30/35
BAE<3
Hägglunds*
Panhards and Toyota Hiluxes with automatic cannons on the back.
>Toyota Hiluxes
>Euro
Moron
They ship globally anon.
Toyota Europe records 28,000 Hiluxes sold in H12022
CV90 by sales and provenance, but the Lynx has more potential imo
What's that camo on the left supposed to be blending into? A pile of Mountain Dew bottles?
Puma is fucking soulless, we need to return to the Marder.
There isn't a Puma in that image anon