what is the urbanmech of the modern world? >a goofy looking machine that is also a realiable and cheap city fighter

what is the urbanmech of the modern world?
>a goofy looking machine that is also a realiable and cheap city fighter

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  1. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Ukraine is working in mechs as it turns to old men and 17yr old kids bc Ukraine is winning so hard..

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      Hey man, idk if you know this, but this war was completely optional for Russia. No one had to die or be maimed, all Russia had to do was not invade.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        NATO sponsored Ukrainian troops were planning on committing a genocide.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          Russia is not the world's police, they don't have a duty to invade every country planning a genocide.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            frick off

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              Nah

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              söy answer, ruski genocide is good for everybody

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          Even if that had been true (which it wsn't), Russia could just have issued an invitation along the lines of 'come, lost Sons of Russia, return into the borders of your great motherland'. Building some Russian new towns and resettling some unsettled places within Russia would have been far cheaper and more productive.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            no they'd rather plant agitators among russian enclaves and have them complain about learning the language of the country they live in

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              Don't you know that making Russians learn banana Russian is genocide?
              Next they will remove vodka from schools and transition children

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                No joke anon, under UN code I think that does count as genocide. You and I tend to think of it as "brutally murdering thousands of people in an effort to exterminate them and their culture," but when I was reading one of the ISW updates last week they threw that chunk of the code in there, and to them, "genocide" applies to a great deal more than just Holocaust-tier antics.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Well taking children from another country and force relocating them within your country has always been genocide. Insisting that you use the national language in a public school is not. Arresting someone for using a foreign language AT ALL is a form of genocide.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          Which Russia could have thwarted by reinforcing its existing holdings in Ukraine instead of bumrushing Kiev then sending the same people into the meatgrinder to get slaughtered anyway.
          500,000 civilians dead is genocide. 500,000 conscripts dead is peacekeeping.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        That's sort of the case with every war. No war in the history of mankind would have happened without the aggressors aggressing.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        Ukraine is full of Nazis, bro.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Average zigger can't afford neither tabletop or vidya from the franchise, instead tries to derail the thread.

          Go away, don't you have some DOTA 2 server to high ping to brasilians or something?

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        Hey man IDK if you know this but Ukraine had a bio weapons lab and as soon as it was captured Covid ended and they had to build new bio weapons labs for their poison vaccines

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      Reminder that currently Ukraine has a population of 20 million still in its non-occupied borders. Typically a nation can conscript around 15% of its population under a war economy. This would mean Ukraine has a recruitable population of 3 million people. After 2 years of fighting, Ukraine has been estimated to take about 100,000 casualties. This means that at its current rate of losses, Ukraine will run out of manpower in only 60 years of continuous fighting at the same level of intensity as right now.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        >to take about 100,000 casualties
        EU admitted to 100k+ KIA
        back in Sept of 2022. And that was a conservative estimate
        just saying..

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          Even if we double that number, Russia will still take 30 YEARS to even begin draining Ukraine of manpower.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          >EU admitted to 100k+ KIA
          They didn't. Von der Leyen, the incompetent fool that she is, read killed and injured as KIA. Stop trying to twist the past, it might work in Russia but here it just makes you look stupid.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          They've probably taken 400K like that fundraiser accidentally admitted a month ago. Maybe it's up to 500K by now. That still gives AT LEAST 5 more years of this. Probably more because they'll switch to more conservative tactics

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        >100,000
        Try 250,000.
        >reeeeeee
        >completely ignores Russian artillery supremacy since day 0
        /k/ry more.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          Okay, so Russia will take 30 years to deplete Ukraine's manpower. Whoop-dee-doo.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            >30 years!
            Already prepping the new /k/ope?

            Russian artillery can't hit the broad side of an oblast.

            >it can't hit-ACK

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              Holy shit, Russians are actually proud of being able to defeat Ukraine after 30 years. What the frick.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Ukraine is winning!
                >it will take 30 years, but they're winning
                Wew lad.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I mean...yeah? Russia has 4 times the population and 25 times the GDP. The fact that Ukraine is beating them at all is a miracle on the part of Russian incompetence.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Ukraine has received more than x3 Russias defense budget
                >is STILL losing territory
                How much cope are you on right now?

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                The Russian defense budget is 9 times larger than what Ukraine has received

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Think of how many incredible gold toilets and awesome prostitute orgies on yachts that bought though

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                All those extra millions aren't doing much good in the war after being spent on yachts and 80 year old German tank engines

                >10% for the big guy
                Yeah. Which is why the current regime is so hellbent on throwing money at Ukraine.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Russian defense budget
                >2022
                >86 billion
                >Ukrainian military aid from the US
                >113 billion
                And that's JUST the US.
                >2023!
                2023 isn't over yet.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                and If I don't want to send 100 billion to Ukraine that makes me automatically pro-russia, according to /k/

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >100 billion
                Would be pretty fricking nice if we could defend our own borders as viciously as we allow Ukraine to defend it's own, but if someone even TRIED to form a "Azov Battalion" on the Mexican border the feds would come down on them so hard it would make Waco look like a liberal DA when dealing with Antifa.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >imagine how much I could have benefitted from those weapons sitting in storage until they eventually are no longer useful.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Russian defense budget on average over the past 30 years = 60 billion * 30 years since the USSR fell = 1.8 trillion

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Soviet Union
                Anon...I....

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Are you seriously going to try to claim that Russia is the same entity as the USSR?

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                No, I thought he was.
                >30 years of funds
                >on equipment that was used or outright scrapped
                Bruh.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                RUSSIA has had 30 years of funding, not the USSR. The fact that Russia is so incompetent that 90% of it probably went to corruption is their own problem.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >muh 30 years of funding
                COPE

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                By that logic the USA has only sent a few million to Ukraine then.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >the funds aren't real because I say so
                Really.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >If I just pretend like Russia has the budget of luxembourg everything makes sense

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >muh 30 years of funding
                COPE

                Anon that is quite literally what you just did

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                All those extra millions aren't doing much good in the war after being spent on yachts and 80 year old German tank engines

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >is STILL losing territory
                They've been steadily retaking territory, with Russia's last territorial gain being Bahkmut, which has already had most of the area around it retaken.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          Russian artillery can't hit the broad side of an oblast.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        Conscripting females is a sign of sufficent manpower

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          I mean Ukraine is about to have, what, a 2-3 million man army while Russia is still stuck with half a million because Putin is deathly afraid of mobilization?

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            Russia has all the shitty aspects of the Inner Sphere and none of the good, no literally, think about.
            >Cargo cult and incapable to create new technological breakthroughs
            >Nepotism and defacto corrupt aristocracy making power plays
            >High inequality to the point you have extremely different technological levels
            >moronic nationalism and larping historical figures
            >Population used as slave labor and cannon fodder
            >Both mercenaries and military committing warcrimes
            >Kill their own military and mercenaries because yeah, can't let them be better than me.

            But I guess they feel even more identified with 40ks IoM.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              Tbf Battlemechs are basically the F-35's of the setting while conventional vehicles are more like Russian armor. The former have a high initial costs, but can perform a ton of different roles and ultimately save money in the long-term on maintenance and storage. The latter is what you build when you want to save on initial costs, but you'll be paying for it later on storage and maintenance costs (assuming you don't let them rust into oblivion) and it'll cost you in manpower and lives.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah, that would make sense.

                It's not that no one is incapable of making new stuff, it's just that Comstar kept everyone else from figuring stuff out until the Helm Memory Core let the cat out of the bag.

                I was pointing out more to the incapability itself more than the reason why.

                Is mechwarrior 5 worth a damn yet?

                It's good with mods, I got a huge surplus of cash with tens of mechs bot battle ready and in cold storage and a battle harem to pilot them.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Tbf Battlemechs are basically the F-35's of the setting
                Can't go too fast for interceptions else they'll get damaged?

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              It's not that no one is incapable of making new stuff, it's just that Comstar kept everyone else from figuring stuff out until the Helm Memory Core let the cat out of the bag.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      Humvee with a TOW launcher

      Hey man, idk if you know this, but this war was completely optional for Russia. No one had to die or be maimed, all Russia had to do was not invade.

      >No one had to die
      But this is a win for us. Slavs die on both sides.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      >having to tie guns to your troops
      ???

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        He's lost his trigger fingers or is crippled by arthritis

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      I applaud this guy and the dozens of his comrades he accidently killed while sneezing

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      This would have been credible if you had not been caught lying about it 30 times since 2022. And for some reason you always come out spamming whenever Shoigu asks for another meat wave for the front.

  2. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Fricking trashcan ass looking mother fricker

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      And a cappie to that.

  3. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    I feel like even in its own setting the battlemechs only exist because everyone is stupid and too busy LARPing as knights to just use a fricking tank.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      In-setting everyone uses a bunch of conventional forces as well as mechs. Rules-wise aircraft and infantry can absolutely shit on mechs.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        i feel like battlemechs are a way to reliably transport heavy weaponry, long distance, over rough terrain at high speed.
        yeah the atlas only goes 50 km/h and it's a fat frickin target, but what other system do you have that can carry
        >1x autocannon/20
        >1x LRM-20
        >1x SRM-6
        >4x medium laser
        at that speed over land?
        and light mechs are even fasterer

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          >but what other system do you have that can carry
          If the factions in Battletech would stop LARPing as knights and apply the technology they already have to their tanks they could easily make one to do that.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            They have terrain restrictions, and other issues like 50% heavier engines and no double heat sinks.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              >They have terrain restrictions, and other issues like 50% heavier engines and no double heat sinks.
              Yeah, see, that's all bullshit though that they could easily fix. Heavier engines? Just use those myomer muscles to power the tanks driveshaft. Terrain restrictions? Either add jump-jets to hop over them, make a bigger tank to plow through the trees, or make a smaller tank that's easier to maneuver. No double heat sinks? Just...make a tank with double heat sinks, this isn't hard.

              It's not that they don't have the technology in Battletech to make good tanks. They just don't, because they're all a bunch of Russia-tier monarchist LARPing warlords.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                No, this military science fiction is built specifically for giant stompy robots.
                It doesn't matter what actual physics dictates, in Battletech, the Battlemech is king.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Just make Lostech lmao why is this so hard

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Just make Lostech
                So nobody ever makes mechs anymore?

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                They downgraded 'mechs and made them with worse components (weapons, armor, heatsinks) because the technical specifications, engineers, and factories to make things like ER PPC's, double heatsinks, and XL engines are gone.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                If that's true then the vast majority of mechs won't even have these advantages

                They have terrain restrictions, and other issues like 50% heavier engines and no double heat sinks.

                and so there's still no reason not to use tanks.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Mobility, utility, and agility are the big things with mechs since they're neurohelm-controlled and generally multipedal. They can go where no tanks can, like climb mountains, step over obstacles that would stop even a hover vehicle, they can jump (including DFA), pick things up with touch precision which is good for supply raiding, and dodge/move around in a fluid, organic fashion unlike ground/air vehicles. Can you slap an equivalent engine in a tank and have superior armor/firepower? Yes. Can you have a tank dodge and weave like a boxer while firing its weapons by angling the arms around buildings/obstacles, full weeaboo fightan style, which mechs can canonically do if the pilot's good enough? No.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Just because a weapon has a niche that doesn't mean it's a good niche. Case in point, tank destroyers.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Tank destroyers had a great niche right up until helicopters stole their jobs.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Technically I'd say it was more ATGM vehicles that stole their jobs. Notably though, rather than slap ATGM's on tanks, the military prefers make their own dedicated vehicles typically. Usually specialization is preferred over trying to do everything, which is the big weakness of mechs.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I guess the ATGM ultimately was the more important development. ATGM equipped infantry replacing TD's in ambush positions, and ATGM equipped helicopters replacing TD's in the tank hunter role.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                backing up your digital design data is lostech in the grimdark future.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >just use the myomer to drive the driveshaft
                IT CAN'T. Myomer is very clumsy without a neurohelmet and would rip the driveshaft and transmission apart, nevermind any sort of meaningful locomotive power.
                >jump jets
                >without a gyro
                Bruh.
                >adding a gyro
                So you're already cutting into your already limited tonnage by adding shit to do what a Mech already does by DEFAULT. By the time you're done you've got a vehicle with armor that makes a M113 look like a Challenger 2, at most a small laser or a machine gun, and moves at best Urbanmech speed while costing much more than the most expensive light. Congratulations you've built a expensive coffin for 3 or 4 men.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Myomer is very clumsy without a neurohelmet and would rip the driveshaft and transmission apart
                Then how the hell do they use it without ripping the joints off a mech?

                >jump jets
                >without a gyro
                Then put a gyro in the tank.

                >So you're already cutting into your already limited tonnage by adding shit to do what a Mech already does by DEFAULT
                A tank has far more tonnage to spare than a mech so this isn't a problem. In fact, the reality is the opposite. A mech with a jump jet and a gyro is cutting into its valuable tonnage that it can't afford compared to waste compared to a tank.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >how the use it
                The neurohelmet takes the natural movements and fine motor control and applies it to the myomer. Battlemechs in universe are SCARY agile, they don't move "mechanically", which is why it takes practice just to walk without pulling a Shinji Ikari Evangelion EP1 but a skilled user can quite literally dance and everything a human can do.
                >jump jets
                >waste
                Not on tabletop, especially for flankers and snipers to get positioning or evasion.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >The neurohelmet takes the natural movements and fine motor control and applies it to the myomer.
                Okay. Just put that on a human, and have him power the drive shaft then manually.

                >Not on tabletop, especially for flankers and snipers to get positioning or evasion.
                Sounds great, we'll use it on a tank to make them flankers and snipers then.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Okay. Just put that on a human, and have him power the drive shaft then manually.

                Please point out where on the human body we have a driveshaft anon?

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Human legs already power driveshafts IRL, they're called bicycles.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Than the muscles would be turning the drive shaft with a seperate, leg-like mechanism, they wouldn't be used in the drive shaft itself.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Okay. Then do that.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Anon the problem was the drive shaft itself, not the engine that uses it.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                How is the problem the drive shaft?

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Than the muscles would be turning the drive shaft with a seperate, leg-like mechanism, they wouldn't be used in the drive shaft itself.

                How is the problem the drive shaft?

                >tfw the mental image of vehicles being glorified Flintstones powered vehicles
                I'm fricking crying.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Even more hilarious is that there are vehicles to carry the mechs. The fricking mechs have their own fricking APCs to protect the mechs.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >mech APC's
                Anon those are recovery and mobile repair and refit stations. Mechs are transported by rail or ocean vessels for both speed and to give time for pilot rest/repair. Usually mechs either walk or hitch a ride on a dropper for speed.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Behold the creation of the greatest minds of Clan Smoke Jaguar!
                >Is that a Raven with training wheels?
                >...frick you.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              >They have terrain restrictions, and other issues like 50% heavier engines and no double heat sinks.
              Yeah, see, that's all bullshit though that they could easily fix. Heavier engines? Just use those myomer muscles to power the tanks driveshaft. Terrain restrictions? Either add jump-jets to hop over them, make a bigger tank to plow through the trees, or make a smaller tank that's easier to maneuver. No double heat sinks? Just...make a tank with double heat sinks, this isn't hard.

              It's not that they don't have the technology in Battletech to make good tanks. They just don't, because they're all a bunch of Russia-tier monarchist LARPing warlords.

              easiest way to end the
              >just put it on a tank
              question would be to make the smallest fusion engine gigantic and have fusion engine tech plateau for the next century and a half in terms of size. then insert layered electric reactive armor that's not a meme into the setting so even if you build a superheavy tank to accommodate the massive engine with the justification that it's still smaller than a mech then you get less layers of electric reactive armor and less all-terrain mobility this time for real as superheavies have demonstrated in the past. all we need is a excuse for air power to be reduced and some sort of protection from artillery, maybe something based off that shockwave resistant plasma barrier boeing patented a while back. it's still meme tech but it's plausible enough for battletech.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >question would be to make the smallest fusion engine gigantic
                Just use Myomer to power the tanks driveshaft.

                Mobility, utility, and agility are the big things with mechs since they're neurohelm-controlled and generally multipedal. They can go where no tanks can, like climb mountains, step over obstacles that would stop even a hover vehicle, they can jump (including DFA), pick things up with touch precision which is good for supply raiding, and dodge/move around in a fluid, organic fashion unlike ground/air vehicles. Can you slap an equivalent engine in a tank and have superior armor/firepower? Yes. Can you have a tank dodge and weave like a boxer while firing its weapons by angling the arms around buildings/obstacles, full weeaboo fightan style, which mechs can canonically do if the pilot's good enough? No.

                Well actually you can drive tanks into mountains, hence why we had them in Afghanistan, but more importantly while you could give a single pilot pilot a tank, we don't because that's a disadvantage. A tank can aim, fire, reload, move, change direction, look where to move next, and acquire a new target all at the same time. Tanks have a large advantage in reaction time, actions, and speed because of this.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >thinks a tank can climb a 70 degree incline like a mech can by using its hands and feet like a rock climber

                wew lad

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I mean...yeah? We had this shit figured out a long time ago.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                as in frick huge big. almost as big as the tank itself.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                No? The Locust is only 20 tons. Even a modern M1 Abrams is 80 tons. If you can power Myomer in something as tiny and light as a Locust, which has 1/4th of the mass of a modern tank, you can easily stick it into a Battletech tank.

                But it still has a driveshaft. Mechs only have myomar. Their limbs are moved by bundles of muscles wrapped over joints. There's no hydraulics or anything. Making the driveshaft turn is not the tank's problem. Having a driveshaft and wheels is the problem.

                >Having a driveshaft and wheels is the problem.
                And that's a problem...why?

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Treads and wheels are more vulnerable to mobility kills no matter what's powering them. A mech can hop on one leg or crawl with no legs at all. A busted tread is done.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Treads and wheels are more vulnerable to mobility kills
                Uh...no? Just split up the tracks into multiple segments if that's such a huge concern, a tank with four tracks could still drive with 3.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I'm talking hypothetical writing solutions to the problem not the actual lore. Numbers would have to be adjusted for my proposed bigger fusion engines that take up more space so tanks can't reliably use them.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I mean obviously the writers will find some excuse to not use tanks, but ultimately it all comes down to the factions in Battletech being moronic warlords LARPing as knights.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                The bigger that you make the engine, the more sense that it makes to put the engine on a tank and the less sense that it makes to put it into a mech.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                You'd only need stronger materials so the legs don't shatter from carrying the bigger engine and heavy overburdened legs are better than heavy overburdened tracks because at least a leg can step over a muddy incline vs the heavy tracks cutting straight through it then sliding or worse.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >at least a leg can step over a muddy incline
                If it's a puddle maybe, but as soon as you have even a small region that's muddy you're way better off with tracks.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                But it still has a driveshaft. Mechs only have myomar. Their limbs are moved by bundles of muscles wrapped over joints. There's no hydraulics or anything. Making the driveshaft turn is not the tank's problem. Having a driveshaft and wheels is the problem.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                What you just described sounds like Heavy Object

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          The USS enterprise would annihilate any mech by any metric

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            yes. because battletech's tech level is at least 1k years behind starfleet. and there's no aliens in the setting to compete against.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              Sucks for them cos enterprise can time travel.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yet the Crew of the enterprise gets fricked up by the dumbest shit

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          did they name the jenner after bruce jenner lol?

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yes.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            There is also the Owens.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Rules-wise aircraft and infantry can absolutely shit on mech
        But not tanks, curiously enough. Also, infantry only shit on mechs in the right circumstances, which can be vanishingly rare depending on what mechs your enemy brings, especially if they bring Infernos.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          >But not tanks, curiously enough
          Can tell you've never played Battletech.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            >He doesn't know
            The fricking MACKIES shit all over tanks in their first encounter with them, a single lance destroying an entire tank company and their infantry support without any damage or casualties.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              You're doubling down on your ignorance. The tanks the Mackie fought had outdated weapons unsuited to combat the Mackie's advanced new armor. Soon these techs trickled down to vehicles.

              Vehicles in Battletech do tend to be weaker then mechs, but they have advantages over them in their niches, too. This is a lesson players either puzzle out for themselves, or learn the hard way when a combined arms guy or a pure treadhead decides to take them to school.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                And regular vehicles already weren’t using these weapons because…

                And the niches for vehicles don’t really matter much when Bsttlemechs are good for 95% of jobs.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >And regular vehicles already weren’t using these weapons because…
                They didn't exist in common use. The Mackie was a testbed for a wide variety of technologies either seeing their first debut or just beginning to enter common production. Again, please brush up on your setting knowledge. This isn't an attack, you're just misinformed.
                >And the niches for vehicles don’t really matter much when Bsttlemechs are good for 95% of jobs.
                You can absolutely run pure-mech just fine, in-setting this is often done by expeditionary forces because they're super-flexible and that's highly desirable. But vehicles can do things mechs cannot or should not do, because they have better things to do. Things like the Pegasus, Warrior VTOL, Manticore, Schrek, missile carriers and later stuff like the Regulator can make mechs' lives miserable or free them up for more important duties.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I can’t think of a single thing a conventional vehicle can do that a mech can’t do better. And the best part is, aside from the initial cost of building it, the mech is even cheaper too since it doesn’t have the same fuel and crew costs of a conventional vehicles and a ton of space on spaceships is saved by using the mechs.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                mechs suck for heavy and long range artillery. try mounting anything bigger then a sniper to a mech

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >mechs suck for heavy and long range artillery
                Are you kidding? They can mount heavy long-ranged artillery just as good as any conventional vehicle since Myomer is basically a godlike material, fire off rounds, and then scoot far faster than any conventional vehicle. Any conventional vehicle trying to match a mech's firepower would be far too slow to properly shoot and scoot.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                he's right, it a waste of a mech and a mechwarrior to sit miles away lobbing shells when you could just put that gun on a cheaper vehicle instead. that's why the Helepolis was a flop

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                That's very much a Russian view of things. Focusing on just producing cheap artillery that they know will get destroyed by a mech and get all of its crew killed, but hey, at least it was cheaper to build, even if using this method strains their logistics far more.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                That's very much a Russian view of things. Focusing on just producing cheap artillery that they know will get destroyed by a mech and get all of its crew killed, but hey, at least it was cheaper to build, even if using this method strains their logistics far more.

                In other words, mechs are the HIMARs of artillery, conventional vehicles are the Russian tube artillery of artillery.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Show me a single mech with a long tom. There is only one mech that mounts a proper artillery piece

                he's right, it a waste of a mech and a mechwarrior to sit miles away lobbing shells when you could just put that gun on a cheaper vehicle instead. that's why the Helepolis was a flop

                Its also a piss poor platform to do it with, too light to carry enough ammo, not small enough to take advantage of the terrain or carry proper weapons for the roll

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Show me a single mech with a long tom
                The Pillager comes with two.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                hmmmm
                no

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                It's a long-tom. It's artillery.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                -Same number of critical slots (15)
                -Same ammo (5 shots per ton)
                -Artillery piece has a range of 30 hexes, mech-mounted snubnose maxes out at 26

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I'm pretty sure the main artillery version measures its range in how many map grids it fires across, not how many hexes.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                That's 30 *mapsheets* for the artillery, and 26 *hexes* for the cannon. A mapsheet is 17 hexes (~500m), whereas a hex is 30m.

                So, 15,000m vs. 780m. The only reason to use a cannon is because it can hit anything within that 780m without a 1-turn delay, doesn't have to deal with artillery skills and the massive artillery to-hit penalties.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Artillery takes up too many crit slots on a 'mech, which is a problem that vehicles don't really have.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >I can’t think of a single thing a conventional vehicle can do that a mech can’t do better
                Sit around cheaply on garrison duty, not have outrageous maintenance costs, etc.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Actually the opposite, while mechs have a higher initial costs, they're ultimately cheaper in the long-run for both garrison and maintenance, since a single crewman requires fewer wages and resources than an entire tank crew for example, and the complicated tracks, driveshafts, and transmissions of a tank are far more prone to breaking and requiring of maintenance than the Myomer muscles of a mech, additionally since the mech is powered by a fusion reactor it requires less fuel and fewer resupplies, and on top of all that even if it runs out of ammo it can engage in melee combat just as effectively.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Complete bullshit considering only a few industrial worlds can even produce 'Mechs. There's a reason, pre-Invasion, that many 'Mechs are decades to centuries old, carefully maintained and preserved by bloodline nobility.
                >inb4 Fedrat scum

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Because they're expensive to produce and the capacity is largely lost, that doesn't mean they're not the better option logistically though.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Work your way through that sentence of yours again.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Producing =/= Maintaining something, otherwise the USA would've lost the ability to maintain its own fleet a long time ago.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Dude, you need to read some of the Battletech novels to get a handle on this.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I did. They're pretty clear on mech supremacy, unsurprisingly.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                And rarity, outside core worlds.

                Combined arms exists even with purely mechs. You got the mechs that are doing long-range artillery shooting, the mechs that are close range urban fighters, the mechs providing air support, the mechs that are breaching enemy lines and flanking, etc.

                While it would be more expensive to produce such a force initially, in the long-run it would save on maintenance and crew costs while being more effective and modular than any conventional vehicle. If the setting had an equivalent to the USA I guarantee you they'd be using an all mech vehicle force for that reason.

                >in the long-run it would save on maintenance and crew costs
                You're completely ignoring canon.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                No, you're ignoring canon by ignoring how expensive space travel is in the setting.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                What?

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >On spacecraft, 1 ton of food and water covers the needs of 200 people for 1 day if they are assigned to quarters. Bay personnel (including infantry bay personnel) who do not receive separate quarters have simpler life support and facilities, and thus use 1 ton of consumables (food, water, air, and so on) per 20 people for 1 day. Personnel transported in cargo bays use 1 ton of consumables per 10 people per day.
                People use a lot of tonnage just through consumables in the lore. You want to cut down on transportation costs and thus want smaller crews, hence mechs with a crew of one, which can perform multiple jobs, are preferred. A mech can fight at most ranges, dig entrenchments, perform repairs, travel in any terrain, all with a crew of 1. You would need like a dozen different conventional vehicles with like 50 people to do the job of a single mech, and they wouldn't do it as well, and the transportation and maintenance costs alone would quickly make them an even more expensive option.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                By this logic, every interstellar assault should consist of a single, 10,000 ton 'Mech piloted by one guy.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                A single 10,000 ton mech can't be everywhere, and it can't occupy a planet. But if you have to choose between a repair vehicle, a transportation vehicle, four tanks, four artillery vehicles, an IFV, and the fuel trucks to supply said vehicles, as well as the 100 or so soldiers required for all this..or a single mech which can do all their jobs by itself while taking up only a single tank's worth of space on board the ship and weighing as much as a single tank with only a single crewman required, you're better off going with the mech.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Thanks for demonstrating my point. And again, not every action in Battletech is an interstellar assault.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Indeed, and if you want to do basically any action in Battlemech, you're best off doing it with a non-mech.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                You're mostly right, but taking it to an extreme. Mechs are generally preferred, but vehicles *are* moved across systems. The AFFS RCTs and SLDF/CS/WoB Divisions are excellent examples of combined arms units in regular service.

                For a small mercenary unit that has to pay for its transportation, going all-'mech has some serious advantages. However, when you get out into the Periphery, sometimes there aren't enough 'mechs to get the job done, so vehicles get brought along despite their larger crews.

                Also, don't forget Techs and AsTechs. While they mostly cancel out--a Mech Tech and their team can maintain just as many 'mechs as a Vehicle Tech and their team can maintain vees--they do add to your transport costs. Hence the preference by small units for hiring local AsTechs during the depths of the 3SW.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                ...and that reason is ComStar (mostly).

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >dude fission engines are way cheaper overall than a technology we've had for 1000 years!
                are you talking out your ass on purpose for (You)'s or are you just stupid?

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Why do you think we use nuclear-powered carriers instead of diesel powered? Much simpler logistics.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                mass production, FAR simpler to produce on a local level, lower EM and IR emission than mechs by a frick ton, idiotically easier to use compared to mechs and easier to refit for missions. VIC's in battletech take the second seat in the series purely because the big stompy robots ARE better, but they also tend to be a great deal more expensive to maintain and produce in the long run.
                >but an urbanmech ONLY costs as much as two vedette tanks!
                yes, some mechs and cheap and ideal for garrison duties, but you also have to remember that you must maintain a fission engine alongside more complicated movement systems over a tanks diesel engine and tracks. On the defensive, mechs are ideal for defending important strategic targets and affording a counter offensive capability, but are surpassed in usefulness on the whole by vehicles, bar none. On the offensive, they provide an operation reserve that mechs simply can't fill due to their lower numbers or battlefield role importance. Is the enemy hq open? Send the mechs. Is the enemy opening another front to your left? Send vehicles. Is the enemy making a breakthrough? Send mechs. Is the enemies left flank weak? Send vehicles. It doesn't matter how big the mech you pilot is, a tank with an AC/10 can still ruin your day. Vehicles, infantry, aerospace, they all matter in battletech, they just don't matter in the same way mechs do,

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >idiotically easier to use compared to mechs
                Wrong, mechs are as easy to use as your body. You want to shoot something with a mech, just aim and shoot. You want to shoot something with a tank, the commander has to acquire the target, tell the gunner to aim, tell the loader to load, tell the gunner to shoot, wait for the gunner to aim, wait for the loader to load, and wait for the gunner to shoot. And this is assuming the driver isn't also driving and people aren't talking on the radio and other stuff is happening.

                >On the offensive, they provide an operation reserve that mechs simply can't fill due to their lower numbers
                The problem is that, on the offensive, space on the spaceship is at a premium, and crewmen use a lot of resources, so you want to reduce the crew as much as possible to save space and tonnage, as well as use vehicles that can perform multiple roles, which the mechs do.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Have I got a solution for you.

                mass production, FAR simpler to produce on a local level, lower EM and IR emission than mechs by a frick ton, idiotically easier to use compared to mechs and easier to refit for missions. VIC's in battletech take the second seat in the series purely because the big stompy robots ARE better, but they also tend to be a great deal more expensive to maintain and produce in the long run.
                >but an urbanmech ONLY costs as much as two vedette tanks!
                yes, some mechs and cheap and ideal for garrison duties, but you also have to remember that you must maintain a fission engine alongside more complicated movement systems over a tanks diesel engine and tracks. On the defensive, mechs are ideal for defending important strategic targets and affording a counter offensive capability, but are surpassed in usefulness on the whole by vehicles, bar none. On the offensive, they provide an operation reserve that mechs simply can't fill due to their lower numbers or battlefield role importance. Is the enemy hq open? Send the mechs. Is the enemy opening another front to your left? Send vehicles. Is the enemy making a breakthrough? Send mechs. Is the enemies left flank weak? Send vehicles. It doesn't matter how big the mech you pilot is, a tank with an AC/10 can still ruin your day. Vehicles, infantry, aerospace, they all matter in battletech, they just don't matter in the same way mechs do,

                Exactly. Combined arms are the way to go.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Combined arms exists even with purely mechs. You got the mechs that are doing long-range artillery shooting, the mechs that are close range urban fighters, the mechs providing air support, the mechs that are breaching enemy lines and flanking, etc.

                While it would be more expensive to produce such a force initially, in the long-run it would save on maintenance and crew costs while being more effective and modular than any conventional vehicle. If the setting had an equivalent to the USA I guarantee you they'd be using an all mech vehicle force for that reason.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >If the setting had an equivalent to the USA
                It *did*, actually... the Terran Hegemony itself. It (well, together with the major Western powers) grabbed a bunch of the best worlds near Terra early on.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >It *did*, actually... the Terran Hegemony
                Eh, not really, it was just more European style monarchism/dictatorship.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                There are fewer MechWarriors out there than vehicle crews. That's why mechwarriors are treated as knights, and often granted titles of nobility. It takes several years of training, and not everybody can use a neurohelmet.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >I can’t think of a single thing a conventional vehicle can do that a mech can’t do better.
                Hovertanks are vastly superior to mechs as high-speed skirmishers and recon platforms. Less so since the drifting rules changed, but still comfortably better. Vehicles make a better platform for 'carriers,' LRM and SRM carriers are typically much more efficient to use than their mech equivalents in volume. Vehicles can mount more armor for their tonnage, though this comes with the tradeoff of being vulnerable to crits in a way mechs aren't and having fewer armor facings so that tonnage doesn't necessarily go as far - still, it's very possible to build extremely difficult-to-extract armored fighting vehicles. Vehicles are also usually better in cities, especially wheeled platforms. A Hetzer parked in a garage at head height is an old trick and still a nasty one. If you want to transport infantry or later battle armor, or spread sensor beacons, or deploy mines - all of these are better done by vehicles than mechs. Another quirk of them is that they only track energy weapon heat, another factor that favors them as missile launch platforms.
                >fuel
                Depends on the vehicles. Vees can and do use fusion tech. They use fuel cell engines too, which use water, which in its non-potable form is basically 'free.'
                >transpo space
                I already commented on this and acknowledged it's one of the reason mechs are preferred for expeditionary use. Still, especially when packing fusion or fuel cell vehicles, their dropship space can be justified. If you're capable of securing an LZ, then you can also use slower-to-unload dropships to pack them in bulk. They're usually a defender's toy, though.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              Always take some tanks, hovers and infantry if you're playing tabletop. Always. The extra firepower at such a cheap cost is indispensable.

              You're doubling down on your ignorance. The tanks the Mackie fought had outdated weapons unsuited to combat the Mackie's advanced new armor. Soon these techs trickled down to vehicles.

              Vehicles in Battletech do tend to be weaker then mechs, but they have advantages over them in their niches, too. This is a lesson players either puzzle out for themselves, or learn the hard way when a combined arms guy or a pure treadhead decides to take them to school.

              >earn the hard way when a combined arms guy or a pure treadhead decides to take them to school
              This.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Pure treadhead tries to take him to school
                >Gets demolished by a single lance of mackies

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Now do it by BV.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Tanks cost more than mechs based in transportation costs. When a single mech is worth 4 tanks at minimum, and each mech only requires 1 crewman while each tank requires 5 or more, you’re saving a lot of money and resources using a mech.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Crew doesn't cost anything in BV except for veteran pilots, unless the rules changed.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Talking lore, not rules.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                LOL lmao even.
                >gets mogged by 50 Savannah Masters
                Not saying I invented the SM bumrush but I was doing it against my buddies in 1990. Credit for credit it's the best platform in the BT universe.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Gets killed by a lance of Mackies

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >doubting intensifies
                I'm going to see if I can run this in MegaMek just to show you.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Still referring to the lore, not your rules.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                They're not my rules, buddy. Take it up with FASA or whoever owns the property now.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                It's not your lore either.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                ????

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                My guy...you're going to have to come up with something more recent than 600 years ago in lore if you want to make a point. That's like saying mounted cavalry are the be all, end all because some fat Polish guy led a charge against some durkas at some point.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Mechs have only gotten even better since then, they've gotten LAMs, jump-jets, double heat-sinks, and their designs have gotten more refined beyond the shitty bucket mechs, while tanks haven't really had any developments. Hell, most conventional vehicles are still ICE powered.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >LAMs
                Yeah you just destroyed any credibility there buddy. Double heat sinks and even jump jets fit into tanks too if for some reason you want a jumping tank

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Point to a single tank in Battletech that can turn turn into a fricking FIGHTER JET you moron

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                No one likes LAM mechs because in addition to capping out at 55 tons, they can't use XL engines, endo steel internals, or FF armor, so they end up suckibg at both jobs.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                You basically have to use them like VTOLs or hovers, as skirmishers and harassers. A LAM's job is to grief an opponent into doing something moronic.

                It's too bad the Screamer LAM never entered serial production, because it was actually good. for a VTOL. Amaris did literally nothing wrong, btw. If anything he should've genocided more Hegemony citizens.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                What we need is an ASF with beefed-up landing gear and a ground mode. ASF already have VTOL capability (it's how they operate on airless worlds), but a few extra tons for ducted fans would solve the problem of running out of fuel. Call it a LAT.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Post examples of tanks with double heat sinks and jump jets then. You need a gyro for the jump jet, tanks don’t have one.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Mate, battletech lore is gigamoronic from every possible technical standpoint. There is a reason fasanomics is a term.

                Mechs have only gotten even better since then, they've gotten LAMs, jump-jets, double heat-sinks, and their designs have gotten more refined beyond the shitty bucket mechs, while tanks haven't really had any developments. Hell, most conventional vehicles are still ICE powered.

                >LAMS
                >Tech white elephants even in the lore you worship
                Dumbass

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      To ignore how fricking dangerous Battlemechs are in universe would have you put against a wall for gross incompetence, in the first real battle involving 'Mechs the Terran Hegemony and the Draconis Combine a lance (4) of Mackies destroyed a entire armored company with no casualties.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        The people in Battletech have all the technology they need to make tanks better than mechs, they just don't bother to use it. It's like putting a Sherman tank up against a modern Bradley helicopter and claiming that IFV's have rendered tanks obsolete.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          >up against a modern Bradley helicopter
          *Bradley IFV

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            The people in Battletech have all the technology they need to make tanks better than mechs, they just don't bother to use it. It's like putting a Sherman tank up against a modern Bradley helicopter and claiming that IFV's have rendered tanks obsolete.

            You have the answer already. The mech is a tank that moves with legs. The fire control system is good enough, the utility is there and it goes as fast as tracks off road. Unless your fighting in the polygon forest in Ukraine, final destination long range combat behind pitcher mound hills, the change in profile may not be as much of a disadvantage. The real test is to build working prototypes and run them in trials and tests to develop doctrine.

            Tracked vehicles actually wear out their tracks relatively quickly. Wheeled armored vehicles are popular because they're cheaper and need much less maintenance. However tanks still remain because they can be much heavier and better off road (but we have plenty of 8x8 off road armored vehicles too!).

            Think it more like armored core, where it is the same thing you just swap the legs for a tracked hull, or wheels, or a helicopter hoverboat.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              >Tracked vehicles actually wear out their tracks relatively quickly
              Then make them out of the same stuff they make the armor from. Hell, apply that shit to the planes too. The setting wants to have its cake and eat it too, it wants to say "oh our mechs work because we have this hyper-durable but super-lightweight material!" but it doesn't want us to apply that material to anything but mechs.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Construction rules use the same armor and structure on vehicles as on mechs. Stop being wrong. Vehicles can be extremely strong and cheap in battletech. The major advantage of battlemechs is their ability to melee, save on heatsinks by overheating and damage sponge a little better.
                Vehicles in battletech often have thicker armor than battlemechs because it is on fewer sections.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >save on heatsinks by overheating and damage sponge a little better.
                These two both being moronic. Why is a mech able to overheat but a vehicle can't? And saying that a mech is a better damage sponge than a tank is like saying it's better for you to stand outside of cover because if you get hit while you're in cover you're guaranteed to get hit in the head if you get hit, but outside of cover it might hit you in a non-lethal body part. It's technically true but also ignoring the fact that the alternative to getting hit in the face in cover is just not getting hit at all, something which tanks are way better at with their compact frames.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Tanks don't need heatsinks for cannons or missiles. Literally just energy weapons. If you wanted to play battletech with vehicles only you would be generally successful.

                The SRM carrier and LRM carrier are two examples of a no-heat glass cannon that are very cheap. You clearly have not been reading the vehicle TROs.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I don't play battletech. I'm not a fan of mecha anime.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >battletech
                >mecha anime
                Try again, fren

                It is a custom setup. Although humidors are usually pretty small.

                It needs to hold a lot of smokes.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Battletech is inspired by mecha anime like Macross and Robotech.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Sort of, not really.
                Battletech started when the two founders passed a bong around in 1981 and thought
                >what if you could wargame all of these japanime robots together

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I mean yeah but if you're using Japanese mecha robots in your setting is it not a mecha setting? Especially given how the whole feudalism in space thing the setting has going seems like something ripped straight from a bunch of mecha shows.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                It is a fantasy wargame in a dieselpunk scifi setting. The depth of mechanics and the way that the units degrade before they die makes it different from the usual exploding into red salsa at zero hp. It is the same reason why in war thunder or world of tanks you can get tracked or lose crew and keep fighting. (No repairs in battletech mid-combat)

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                The vehicles sponge damage on the three sides and turret that are facing the enemy with the majority going to the hull facing the enemy. It is dice-roll hit locations so that's the variance. If you do change the exposed armor you can peel like an onion and use almost all of your armor before dying. But vehicles die if they lose one of their four hull sections.

                Mechs die on loss of center torso or head. Loss of limbs and side torso pushes the damage inward to the next section leading to the gladiator combat feature of the game where damaged mechs get progressively disarmed but never quit the fight until they're exhausted. Heat is also a stamina-like system where the gladiators overexert in dramatic risk and reward. Mechs can also hobble on one leg.

                Overall the game is focused on mechs and have simplified rules for vehicles, because you're expected to focus on the mechs and flavor with vehicles. But vehicles are still very strong in battletech.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          >why have attack helicopters?
          >why no just make tanks fly?
          That's literally your whole argument.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            No, that's the argument you're making for mechs. You're trying to justify a jack-of-all trades vehicle that's supposed to be a helicopter/tank/infantry, when we've already proven IRL that specialization is preferred.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              It's not tho, baytletech is just mechs, there's still tanks, helicopters, jets, and infantry at play. They're just another part of warfare.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah but the whole argument in favor of mechs is that they supplant 95% of battlefield roles. They're the "do almost everything" vehicle of the battlefield.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                No? The are a new role like aircraft. They aren't replacing tanks or aircraft anymore than tanks or aircraft replaced infantry.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >They aren't replacing tanks
                Uh, they kinda are though? The lore has them demolishing tanks and basically turning tanks into a purely defensive weapon. The mechs in the setting fill the role of troop transports, armored pushers to break through enemy lines, combat engineers, vehicle repairers, logistics vehicles, air support, flankers, long-range artillery, snipers, bunker-clearers, anti-infantry, anti-tank, anti-aircraft, space-combat, etc.

                In fact, it's easier to list the things mechs can't do:
                They can't clear out buildings room by room like infantry and occupy a town after a war like infantry.

                That's about it. Everything else in the setting can be done by mechs and mechs are always the higher quality option for doing so. Conventional vehicles are basically the cheap option done by Russia-tier shitholes because they don't want to pay for the good stuff.

  4. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    i'd say infantry
    >slow as shit
    >easy to kill
    but don't make the mistake of underestimating them or you'll fricking die

  5. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    urbies are sick. anything that makes elitists seethe is great.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      I love ac20 sniper urbie like you wouldn't believe

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        How do you snipe with an Ac20? It's practically a melee weapon

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      Based Urbie splashing Phoenix Hawks and Griffins like a boss.

  6. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Lust provoking image
    >Irrelevant question
    Imagine walking around in an egg when you could walk around in a Crab.

  7. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Reminder that purple bird strong

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      NEG

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous
  8. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    A-10

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      too good to be an urbie, maybe the super tucano.

  9. 10 months ago
    Anonymous
  10. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Technical

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      A technical.

      They can balance themselves and recover themselves better than a mech could.

      This.

  11. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    M50 Ontos

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      The Ontos already exists in battletech, except it mainly carries lasers.

  12. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    A gigantic slow target that wcould be fricked by one hit to the leg?

  13. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    You, anon. You.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      that is the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me

  14. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >play battletech
    >vanilla cause I can't be assed downloading RT or BTA
    >load up one of my campaigns
    >Shadow hawk, hunchback, Enforcer and a trebuchet
    >load a difficulty 3 mission to kill Fed's
    >encounter enemy lance
    >two black knights, a Warhammer and a flea
    >mfw
    Sometimes this game just never ceases to amaze me in what it thinks I'm capable of

  15. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    The Sherichad is a good contender

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      if your scout doesn't have a light cruiser gun you're doing it wrong

  16. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    ONCE THE BIG ZAM IS MASS PRODUCED WE'LL PUT AN END TO THE (insert enemy) IN NO TIME.

  17. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    I feel like this is a good place to make my argument about how this is not merely a rickshaw with an MG3, but a Danish FAV. It has mobility, it has durability, it is load bearing and versatile. It has a low profile and stealth capability. It could potentially be equipped with communications systems. It is extremely easy to maintain. In a country like Denmark with many canals and narrow alleyways a vehicle like that with an ATGM might be more maneuverable, and therefore more valuable in a city like Copenhagen. If they are outdoors, this is a European country. Much of it is developed land. There could be trails dedicated to smaller vehicles or infantry where they can potentially maneuver away from something like a BMP through a densely wooded area. I also assume they wouldn’t be working alone. It is a Danish FAV.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      Id hate to be in that little cab in combat though, open top or.get some 10mm plates at least

  18. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Sending cold war stockpiles to Ukraine
    sure why not
    >Sending brand new equipment to Ukraine
    uh... we have to pay for those tho-
    >Sending billions in straight up cash to Ukraine with no accountability
    wait stop
    >Blocking a measure in congress that wouldn't even cut funding, just require transparency on WHERE the billions in cash was going
    frick go back

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Sending billions in straight up cash to Ukraine with no accountability

      Source me up chief (you won’t)

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-us-aid-ukraine-money-equipment-714688682747#:~:text=Between%20January%202022%20and%20January,Economy%2C%20a%20German%20think%20tank.

  19. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    EVERYONE FRICKING QUIT WITH UKRAINE AND GET BACK ON TOPIC

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      >create a barely disguised battletech thread
      >fricking rashid over there had to intervene

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      I hate capellans

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        Capellans, or as I like to call them, "targets," should all be subjected to nuclear, chemical, and biological holocaust.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          >not killing FedRats
          They honestly deserve it more, you KNOW a Capellan will stab you in the back, but the Federated Suns will do the exact same while loudly proclaiming they'll never do such a thing.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            The Capellans invaded the Concordat using NBC weapons because the Taurians rightly pointed out that the Area Accords massively favored the great states with their much larger industrial capacity, while the weapons the accords sought to ban were useful force multipliers for smaller nations.

            The Capellans did end up seizing some low-value worlds, but at enormous cost because the Taurians gave no quarter in response to Capellan hypocrisy and spared no cruelty. The loss of materiel was so immense that it had lasting and disastrous effects on the Cappie military.

            Some would call that put paid. Me, I humbly submit that any enemy left alive is a problem for tomorrow best solved today.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              >Taurian-Star League war
              The Star League literally tried a "special 3 day operation" on the Taurians which turned into a TWENTY FRICKING YEAR slaughter in which the Taurians were winning until resorted to outright genocide and blatant plot armor (commanders outright breaking protocol on communications for no reason) in order to win. Yeah the last fleet action had the Star League admiral use a civilian diplomatic channel instead of military coms (the Taurians cracked SLDF codes even though they didn't know this) so out of the blue a commander violates coms in a active warzone, not even on suspicion or a hunch.
              >New Vandenberg Uprising
              The SLDF was so brutal in their treatment of the Taurians that they had SLDF units outright DEFECT to the rebels over disgust at their treatment.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          Honestly all sphereoids (except, Rasalhage they cool) deserve to suffer. Tho not all to the same extent.

          Clannies are cringe too

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            >the Inner Sphere
            I wouldn't be surprised that there was some sort of Terran Hegemony/Star League secret eugenics program to turn everyone into sheepeople, the fact that there hasn't been dozens of American/French/Russian Revolutions that tear apart the great houses. NONE of the Scavenger Lords are innocent in being monsters, the Davions are just as, if not worse than the Liao's or Kurita's. The Federated Suns has the worst quality of life in the Inner Sphere, with many worlds not even having SCHOOLS at maxing out at the 18th century tech level. The Capellans have the highest lireracy rate, general quality of life and fanatical patriotism. For all the memes about Lyran wealth they aren't that better than the FedSuns, the Draconis Combine is at least willing to improve their civilians quality of life.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        https://i.imgur.com/oGce9mU.png

        Capellans, or as I like to call them, "targets," should all be subjected to nuclear, chemical, and biological holocaust.

        Always remember, it's not a war crime if it's being committed upon a Capellan.

  20. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Looks like an easy target for air support.

  21. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    What blew up lately? Lots of seethe in every thread.

  22. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Probably the T-55; a pretty shitty, pretty cheap tank that has been the butt of jokes ever since the first one jobbed to an M4 Sherman and even the Soviets knew it wasn't hot shit and tried to sell them all to its client states, but every once and a while they run into a situation where the enemy doesn't have any anti-tank weapons and solo a city, like the ones in Somalia.

    They also have a ton of meme variants, just like the Urbie, and both share the dome turret.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      >That fricking paintjob
      Imagine seeing this coming towards you around a corner, and there's a little old babushka poking her upper torso out of it drinking sunflower tea from a little china cup while she yells in ukranian "Fire, son! Make mama proud!"

  23. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >what is the urbanmech of the modern world?

    Turkish M60s. Or perhaps DJI mavic drones

  24. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    How many battlemech engineers do you think kill themselves every year? Just imagine the stress of that job.
    >Okay we need you to design a mech.
    >It has to be as well armored as a tank, and be capable of handling infantry, armor, and airborne threats.
    >It also needs to be very fast and capable of leaping over rough terrain.
    >Oh, and it has to be bipedal. Also, we want it to be able to handle the vacuum of space.
    >It also needs to be able to function as a utility vehicle and perform repairs on other vehicles.
    >Also we want all the weapons and tools on the mech to be easy to swap out with others.
    >It should be capable of electronic warfare and EW to a reasonable degree as well.
    >Everything on the mech needs to be able to be done by a single person.
    >Finally, make sure that it's within a reasonable budget, and fits in a compact space, cause we're gonna mass produce...and he killed himself.
    >Frick, now who are we gonna get to design the mech that we need to fly like a jet?

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      >It has to be as well armored as a tank, and be capable of handling infantry, armor, and airborne threats.
      Armor is ablative, so that's easy. Handling various threats is loadout dependent. It makes less sense to use your 30 million c bill custom assault mech against infantry than it would to just send a Firestarter, same with a Rifleman against aircraft.
      >It also needs to be very fast and capable of leaping over rough terrain.
      Only lights need to be fast
      >Oh, and it has to be bipedal. Also, we want it to be able to handle the vacuum of space.
      Most mechs aren't vacuum hardened, but can do it in a pinch. Also, quad mechs are a thing.
      >It also needs to be able to function as a utility vehicle and perform repairs on other vehicles.
      Hands
      >Also we want all the weapons and tools on the mech to be easy to swap out with others.
      Omnimech tech in a nutshell
      >It should be capable of electronic warfare and EW to a reasonable degree as well.
      Oddly enough, even in the tech collapse of the Succession Wars allbmecha could do that to an extent. It's why LRMs roll on a cluster table even with a spotter
      >Everything on the mech needs to be able to be done by a single person.
      Neurohelmets
      >Finally, make sure that it's within a reasonable budget, and fits in a compact space, cause we're gonna mass produce...and he killed himself.
      Client may have to scale back their ambitions a bit.
      >Frick, now who are we gonna get to design the mech that we need to fly like a jet?
      Oh, should have just said you wanted a LAM design. We got a Pheonix Hawk for that.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Also, quad mechs are a thing
        Yeah but they suck.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        >all mechs EW
        >has to make a entire tech for that
        The Mechwarrior games (especially the new ones) pretty much give out free C3 and BAP by how you're just able to target share and detect things beyond LOS. It's not because of mass jamming that makes LRM's scatter it's simply due to a combination of cheap missiles (overwhelm AMS) and BT computers sucking so much. Older (MW2 and MW3) had LRM/SRM's as fire and forget with the TAG acting like the modern LRM's.
        >MWO ECM
        Clan ECM has made missile boats virtually useless, and the XPulses makes battlefields look like dubstep concerts.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        >LAM
        Please let those die. They were, and are utterly goofy and is a detriment to the entire franchise.
        >Phoenix Hawk
        Make JJ's default. They're literally built into the endo and to take them out would destroy the mech. As they are built in they cost NO tonnage. The Phoenix Hawk should be a expensive, VERY DANGEROUS and mobile energy based killer whose only flaws are heat and maintenance costs (time and c-bills) cause Mechtechs and commanders to want to suck start a shotgun when it gets broken.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          You don't like your Unseen designs, anon?

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            >unseen
            Battletech has a NASTY habit of plagiarism, they shamelessly steal others intellectual property all the time, here's a list.
            >Star Wars
            >Lord of the Rings
            >Macross
            >The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai
            There are probably more, but I hope they don't run into Games Workshops legal team because they make Harmony Gold look like Magpul.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              >Macross
              And yet they left out the best part of Macross. Combat giants are unironically probably more practical for war than mechs are tbh.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >BUT THEN SHE TURNS INTO A e-girl WHEN SHE GETS MICLONED! WHY? BECAUSE FUNNY!
                THIS SHIT PISSES ME OFF SO MUCH THAT I AM WRITING MY OWN GIANTESS MECHA BOOK!

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              Remember kids, you can always argue it's plagiarism when it's a series you don't like, but cry inspiration when it is

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >literally copy artwork 1:1
                >droids
                >Fighting Urkhai
                >Buckaroo Banzai
                Anon there's inspiration, and then there's outright theft.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                And they acted in good faith thinking that they had bought the rights to those designs after they found out that the guy who drew them for them took more than a little inspiration from his previous works.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >bought
                That's the problem, they didn't buy the rights from Harmony Gold, who had exclusive rights to North America they went around them which was a stupid mistake. Though it worked out for the better as it forced Battletech to create honestly better designs than the inspirations. Macross is virtually a dead franchise while Battletech is thriving.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Didn't HG acquire the NA rights *after* FASA had already purchased what they thought was the rights?

                The crazy part of the story is that the whole HG thing began when they started selling an almost exact duplicate of the Mad Cat under their ExoSquad line (note that this design never even made it into the ES cartoon), and FASA objected to that. HG then started using lawfare, deliberately trying to run FASA out of money so they'd win by default. Wasn't the only time that HG did that sort of thing, either.

                Oh, and I forget the details, but it turned out, many years later, that HG didn't actually own half the rights that they had been claiming the whole time.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Most mechs aren't vacuum hardened
        Then how do they do drops from space?

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          Dropships.
          Literally nobody but insane morons do hot drops due to how risky and expensive it is. Usually, you try to stealth-drop on a remot location and start your ground campaign from there. Or you bribe the local troops. Or, as a desperate measure, you bombard some area and then try to secure it with Aerospace and winged dropships before you send the rest of your forces down.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yes, except that canonically, Battlemechs can, and do, drop from space. Also, there are scenes in many of the books with battles on airless moons.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          Drop capsules. Same thing used in Starship Troopers (the book), but scaled up. They come standard with a Dropship's mech bays.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            Still doesn't answer how they hang out on airless moons, nor maintain integrity inside the drop capsule. That troll from earlier seemed to think 'Mechs implode in space.

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              True enough. Yes, 'mechs can operate in a vacuum or underwater just fine as long as their armor is not breached. Their internal components do not react well to water or vacuum, however, making them extra squishy in either environment.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                All battletech vehicles (except maybe boats) get disabled sections from a breach underwater. Mechs just automatically have environmental sealing and other vehicles need to add it as a trait.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                My favorite thing about Inner Sphere 'Mechs is the kitchenette and toilet in the back of the wienerpit. How else are you going to stay sane doing picket duty on some airless rock?

                ...and that reason is ComStar (mostly).

                ComStar needed the purging, and probably needs another.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Don't forget the Cyclops double wienerpit with the minibar, king-sized bed and prostitutes.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                Does it have a humidor, or can I get that as an extra?

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                It is a custom setup. Although humidors are usually pretty small.

  25. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    The newest armored core game made me realize how much I prefer battlemech

  26. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Reliable and cheap city fighter
    M113. That little fricking metal box just refuses to go away.

  27. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >mfw new kickstarter pushes an assload of vehicles and flyers to dunk on me**gays through combined arms

  28. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >replying to 2/10 bait

  29. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Okay but the real question is:
    What are the advantages of bio-engineered combat giants over a mech?

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      A technical.

      They can balance themselves and recover themselves better than a mech could.

  30. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >30 tons
    >That tall
    hmmmm

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      Battlemechs have unique ultralight ultradurable armor, and the Myomer itself is also ultralight. Some of the mechs are even capable of flying like a jet.

  31. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    In the future, there will be one vehicle that does everything.

    We're already moving away from specialization in the air. The F-35 is capable of air superiority, close air support, bombing enemy industry, conducting electronic warfare, reconnaissance, mid-air refueling, and VTOL flight.

    IFV's are already capable of scouting, reconnaissance, anti-tank activities, infantry support, transportation, delivering supplies, and commanding troops. The concept is continuing to be refined to encompass even more roles.

    Someday, all vehicles will be condensed down into a single vehicle that can float, submerge, fly, and drive across all terrain, and do every feasible role. Warfare will be entirely down to who can produce more of this weapon.

    That is what the Battlemech is. It is the "do everything" vehicle.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      >go submerged
      >get dunked on by dedicated submersibles because designers had to sacrifice something to have a vehicle that does everything

      >go airborne
      >get dunked on by dedicated aircraft because designers had to sacrifice something to have a vehicle that does everything

      >go to space
      >get dunked on by dedicated spacecraft because designers had to sacrifice something to have a vehicle that does everything

      >etc

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        >because designers had to sacrifice something to have a vehicle that does everything
        That's where you're wrong. Not only does the Battlemech do every job, it does every job better than conventional vehicles. Long-range artillery? Conventional vehicles are too slow and don't carry as much ordinance, only a mech can shoot and scoot with heavy firepower. Submersible combat? Only a mech can punch through a dozen submarines, rapidly swim though the water using jump jets, and tank any torpedo it is hit with. Space combat? Only a mech can agily dodge shots from a spaceship, breach into the ship itself, and go room by room killing soldiers.

  32. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    There’s been a rash of battletech threads lately.

    I’m happy about it.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      yeah, I don't see any issues with it. they are good fun.

  33. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    This shit jumped the shark with clan wolf

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      Battletech jumped the shark with the invention of the battlemech, everything since then has been doing triple wheelie backflips off of the sharks tail and reveling in it.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Jumped the shark

      Why jump us? We're just your friendly neighborhood harjel merchant

  34. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Every time I dome one of these poor bastards with my double guass cannons in MW5 I feel so guilty.

  35. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    didn't know they were still making Toyota Previas in 3025

  36. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Is mechwarrior 5 worth a damn yet?

  37. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    What is the point of such a vehicle if we have tanks, planes, trucks, and so on?

    To equip the vehicle with tactical nuclear devices, and essentially make the vehicle a walking nuclear bomb itself if targeted, then maybe it is practical.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      We have those biped and quadruped robots from Boston Dynamics.

      It is possible to manufacture similar devices at both smaller and larger scales.

      At what point is a bipedal robot practical for warfare? Either as a large crewed device or the military grade android soldiers they are researching.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      >What is the point of such a vehicle if we have tanks, planes, trucks, and so on?
      That vehicle can perform the job of those tanks, planes, trucks, and so on, all by itself. It's basically the multirole vehicle of all multiroles, able to perform almost any task.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      modularity. You have the same exoskeleton hauling crates in the warehouse and shooting a big exoskeleton sized gun. The reason we'd choose them over tanks is they're intuitive to pilot

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      in BT terms? Due to the way FTL and space travel works they are great tools for raids and low level conflict because dropships are fairly limited on bays. But in massed attacks and defensive operations you really just can't beat tanks and areospace assets

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        Tanks just don’t have the armor, speed, or firepower for really punching through enemy lines line mechs do in the BT universe.

  38. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >common issue people bring up irl, in gameplay, and in lore is that bipedal mechs and their pilots take catastrophic damage from falls
    maybe the japs were on to something designing their version of the stalker.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      That's not really an issue in the lore or game though because mechs are going out there with jump jets and pulling off all kinds of stunts in their mechs.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        yeah but what about all the designs without jump jets or the poor lights taking a gauss round to the chest?

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        anon, there is a huge difference between a pilot preforming a maneuver and having an uncontrolled fall to the ground

  39. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Bring back battleTroops

  40. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >what is the urbanmech of the modern world?
    A useless piece of trash that has no reason to exist even in its own setting?

  41. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Realistically speaking even with all the concessions BT gives to its mechs just to make them kinda of viable if you squint hard enough, aircraft would still be the kings of the battlefield. They already pretty much are today, this would go even moreso in BT.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      Lasers and advanced targeting systems tend to even the playing field a bit, but mechs tend to win out mostly because they can take and hold ground.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        Infantry are for taking and holding ground, mechs are just bigass walking targets for missiles. Tanks already struggle in modern combat without air superiority because of drones and ATGMs and artillery, mechs are an even bigger target.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          The ablative armor used in setting, along eith the widespread proliferation of AMS systems, did a lot for reducing how good those sorts of attacks were. Also, they're still around in setting in the form of SRMs.

          • 10 months ago
            Anonymous

            Oh no, ablative armor? Whatever shall we do...

            • 10 months ago
              Anonymous

              Oh no, missles? Whatever shall we do...

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                >have to put "do not paint" on the radar for your CIWS
                Damn, grunts really are the dumbest of the dumb.

              • 10 months ago
                Anonymous

                I think that's more so for the mech jocks and their maintenance team so they don't try to paint flames on it.

  42. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    I just picked up MW5 and tried it, and I've gotta say that the only reason 'Mechs still exist is that artillery seems to be super rare and mechs seems to have some sort of system that instantly pinpoints where shells are going to land the moment the artillery is fired, even when it's not in line of sight. I feel like given that this is the space future, it'd be more plausible if I had a tracked vehicle with a big C-RAM system on it following me around to defend against indirect fire than the psychic counter battery radar.

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      >C-RAM
      Thats AMS (Anti-Missile System) and it's really only effective against (surprise) missiles and was up until the Helm core LosTech.

  43. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    Gepard.

  44. 10 months ago
    Anonymous

    >tanktard thinks he's so smart that tanks and aerospace fighters can't use the same armor as battlemechs when they do use the same

    • 10 months ago
      Anonymous

      The problem isn't that the designs of Battlemech are bad (though many of them are), it's that the factions are all Russia-tier moronic.

      • 10 months ago
        Anonymous

        In fairness, most of the bad mechs are either that way because they were designed when the government had infinite money to blow on R&D but were so bad no one used them until they had almost no other options, like the Charger, or are just so cheap you almost can't not use them, like the Locust.

        It's honestly a shame the clanners and the hoods nabbed all the cool stuff.

        • 10 months ago
          Anonymous

          >charger
          The frame itself wasn't bad, and CAN be a pretty good heavy once you downgrade the engine and put some good guns on it.

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