>integrally suppressed with subsonic, integrally-suppressed, armor-piercing round
Armor piecing of what lvl 1a vests? These were meant for hosing down unarmored terrorists and hostages
>The Vintorez is chambered for 9x39 mm cartridge. This rifle uses the SP-5 and SP-6 subsonic ammunition. Primary is the SP-6 armor piercing round. It has a hardened steel penetrator. It penetrates 6 mm steel plate at a range of 200 m and 2 mm steel plate at a range of 500 m. This round penetrates most military body armors at ranges of 300-400 meters. The SP-5 is a ball round, fitted with heavy bullet.
That's cap 100% there's plenty of vids of this shit round failing to pen helmets at 25 yards, let alone lvl 3-4 plates which is what "most" soldiers now use. Event full power 308 flying at 2700fps fails to pen lvl 3, let alone some vatnig round flying at a snails pace
>6mm steel plate
5.56 M193 routinely clears 7-8mm of RHA at that distance, with ~8mm also being the average thickness of steel plates advertised as "Level III" """armor""".
With that said, it will easily blow through any soft armor vest and then some, which was the design intent.
I can personally say that I have had trouble penning 10mm of bum ass industrial stainless steel at 25yd with m193 so I really doubt that it can penetrate 8mm of RHA at 200
M855 wasn't much better it just left a cool plug in the divot
Lmao out of what barrel, 5"?
M193 pens even some "level III" steel plates, it eats mild steel for breakfast.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
12.5 at 25 yd
it was about as mild as mild steel comes
maybe 5.56 isn't as good at penetrating steel as you think
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>maybe 5.56 isn't as good at penetrating steel as you think
Yeah it's not like I specifically tested this exact same thing before or anything lmfao
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
i'm gonna have my buddy send me a picture of the plate we lit up so you can see what i'm talking about
there were a couple penetrations but they appear to be due to multiple strikes in the same place
>500m
you'll be aiming at the sun to hit anything that far away with this subsonic turd round. The gun is a meme, like most Russian junk. The concept of .300blk where you can be sneaky and then switch to supersonic ammo if you need to and then have an actual rifle is way more practical
>The Vintorez is chambered for 9x39 mm cartridge. This rifle uses the SP-5 and SP-6 subsonic ammunition. Primary is the SP-6 armor piercing round. It has a hardened steel penetrator. It penetrates 6 mm steel plate at a range of 200 m and 2 mm steel plate at a range of 500 m. This round penetrates most military body armors at ranges of 300-400 meters. The SP-5 is a ball round, fitted with heavy bullet.
Congratulations, retards. You fell for the meme.
The military 9x39 loads will penetrate Russian GOST 3 armor (capable of stopping 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 ball). That's somewhere between IIIA and III.
The equivalent of NIJ lvl III would be GOST 5 (capable of stopping 7.62x54R ball).
That is what they were designed for. That is what they can do.
>This round penetrates most military body armors at ranges of 300-400 meters.
No it doesn't.
>250gr piece of tool steel flying at subsonic velocity >armor piercing
Pick one and only one, anon. The Russians don't get a pass on physics, except perhaps with how far tank turrets can fly. Also, you should know better than to take Russian performance claims as factual at this point.
The impression I've gotten from talking to ukrainian soldiers who have fought guys using them is that the bullet is slow as fuck and drops like a motherfucker, to the point where whoever is shooting at them with one can't hit shit.
from what i remember for herreras vid it was 3 angled baffle wall basically,
overall its kinda silly concept to try to have both ap and subsonic and a large diameter heavy bullet, 300 blackout is a better idea cause of the option of choosing a load
Theoretically it might a decent idea as a concept for counter-terrorism and hostage shenanigans where you won't realistically be taking shots past 50 meters. At least assuming that it works as intended.
Yeap, but 3
It's still supposedly quite af
And understandably so, i mean look at the size of that thing, with so much volume, you really don't need a complex system of baffles
The average retard tradie here can design a can 1/4th the size with the same amount of silencing capability, a weapon made solely for cqb should not be wasting space that retardedly
>a weapon made solely for cqb should not be wasting space that retardedly
good to know we can agree on some things
But I think it's equally retarded to claim that VSS or VAL were designed "solely for CQB" (or CQB in general for that matter)
Why Russian special police forces loved posing with one in CQB scenarios is another matter, retardnes might be involved, but it's definitely not the engineers' fault
tldr
it's a specialized weapon for taking out sentries and it can afford a large volume suppressor, which allows a simple design of one
People rip on this every time it gets posted, but how bad is it actually when it comes to performance? The MP5SD also used a design that really wouldn't fly by today's standards.
Its performance in terms of noise is not that great, it's louder than most suppressed western guns, however the main problem with the suppressor is just the fact that the inefficient design makes the thing so heavy and huge. For example, the actual useful barrel length of the VSS is only 4.7", about the same as a full size 1911. The rest is just porting and the suppressor which along the stock and the receiver make the gun closer to an AK in size.
>neuron activated
if im remembering correctly there are more updated versions of the VAL. i have no clue how good they work but im 99% sure they have made a model that fires properly without the can on it.
Why do you feel that's an issue? Guns in .300 BLK designed for subsonic use commonly have 6" barrels. You don't need that much barrel if you aren't driving a bullet to supersonic velocities.
because all things considered, the VSS doesn't seem that great. Sure you get a compact profile and integral suppression, but four baffles, a barrel that doesn't even reach the aforementioned 6", and the combined weight just seems laughable when you can easily configure something non import banned that does a better job in just about every measure
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I would sure hope that an AR in a round less than 15 years old and a modern flow-through suppressor would be able to outperform a rifle from the late 80s. I don't think anybody is interested in these guns for the sake of peak efficiency.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
That's fine but that goes back to my original point - to hell with wanting a VSS when there's more efficient options made with less unobtainium
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
so what are these out of the factory options?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
same reason people want a Ferrari even though they get shit mileage and have poor ground clearance, because they're cool. I don't know why you're being so obtuse about this, even the most robotic autist understands that guns have never just been tools and there's always been a romantic attachment to some designs over others.
Holy shit anonymous I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to like the VSS I'm saying this for myself and have been the whole time.
I will never understand why people get so attached to their favorite bang stick from call of duty
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
same reason people want a Ferrari even though they get shit mileage and have poor ground clearance, because they're cool. I don't know why you're being so obtuse about this, even the most robotic autist understands that guns have never just been tools and there's always been a romantic attachment to some designs over others.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
you don't have to be so defensive about some mediocre russian prototype from the 80s either
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I wasn't being defensive, its just weird you think its insightful that a modern gun is going to be better than a 40 year old gun. Like yeah, that's how linear time works; older things are less developed than newer more developed things.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I never said anything of that sort. You don't have to be so defensive of a gun you'll never get to hold in your hands so as to constantly bring this up.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>a barrel that doesn't even reach the aforementioned 6",
Again, why do you feel this is a problem? Besides that, the appeal of the VSS for most people has always been its aesthetic. If you're just interested in performance, suppressor design and precision shooting has come a very long way since the VSS was designed, considering work started on it before Chernobyl happened.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You're saying it like VSS had been up to par with recent tech when it was designed.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Explain why you feel it wasn't.
>there's plenty of vids of this shit round failing to pen helmets at 25 yards
Never saw a single video like that. Post it?
Subsonic rifle ammo basically performs like pistol ammo except for being more aerodynamic, so unless they had the AP ammo for it, there's no reason for a modern kevlar helmet (which are commonly NIJ IIIa rated and will stop .44 magnum) not to stop it.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
this pic here says all
https://i.imgur.com/ASKPmVs.jpg
It's actually worse than that.
1920s state of the art
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
And the finest Teutonic craftsmanship at the time looked like this:
https://i.imgur.com/PUNf8Jo.jpg
[...]
People rip on this every time it gets posted, but how bad is it actually when it comes to performance? The MP5SD also used a design that really wouldn't fly by today's standards.
. Suppressors were a lot more primitive a few decades back. Especially ones designed to stand up to military use.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
you must be braindead if you think these two are in any way comparable
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>zoom zoom can't believe that the 80s weren't just like today
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
you must be braindead if you think these two are in any way comparable
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>posts something that didn't see near the level of adoption as the VSS and was for people with more than just designated marksman level training
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>the level of adoption as the VSS
200 rifles got sent to rot in the warehouses of some corrupt police warehouse/garbage dump?
we're reaching cope levels never seen before here
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I accept your defeat
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
and I accept yours
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I accept your defeat
and I accept both of yours
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>posts vatmoron fantasy to cope with them being irrelevant, uncreative and technologically backwards monkeys
You lost and you will never not eat shit.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>that minimal baffle spacing with flat baffles
That thing probably performs like shit.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Subsonic rifle ammo basically performs like pistol ammo except for being more aerodynamic
What the fuck am I reading?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP >230 gr (15 g) FMJ, Double Tap 960 ft/s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Blackout >220 gr (14 g) OTM 1,010 ft/s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x39mm >16.1 g (248 gr) SP5 290 m/s (950 ft/s) >16.2 g (250 gr) SP6 305 m/s (1,000 ft/s)
Do you not realize that rifles get their higher muzzle energy and improved terminal performance over handgun ammo from higher velocities, and that subsonic ammo sacrifices that? All you're left with for advantages over handgun ammo is a more aerodynamic bullet shape.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Again, why do you feel this is a problem? Besides that, the appeal of the VSS for most people has always been its aesthetic.
That's fine but that goes back to my original point - to hell with wanting a VSS when there's more efficient options made with less unobtainium
Why do you feel that's an issue? Guns in .300 BLK designed for subsonic use commonly have 6" barrels. You don't need that much barrel if you aren't driving a bullet to supersonic velocities.
To add, the military 9x39mm loadings use a 250 grain bullet and .300 BLK subsonic loadings are int the 200-220 grain range, vs the 230 grains of .45 ACP ball.
The longer cartridge length means you get a more aerodynamic bullet with smaller baffle holes but pretty much this. Subs cuck a cartridge ridiculously even the heaviest and fastest subsonic 9x39 loads are about the power of .30 carbine supers. 9x39 in terms of most common bullet weights is comparable to .44 magnum but .44 mag at least doubles the muzzle energy with supers.
It's fine for its age and niche but probably became a status symbol because the intended spec ops use that everyone wanted em, like middle east krinks except even less effective. It's also a ridiculous amount of effort towards making it armor piercing because only FSB and spetnaz can afford stuffing tungsten into a round going 1k fps.
A .45 acp suppressed pcc would be pretty neat to have. I was wondering about shit like .450 bushmaster but what's the point if velocity is the same and you can get 400 grain .44 mag and .45 acp.
Who knows? They were designed for a narrow specialist purpose that it's questionable if Russia was actually able to use them in. Most of the bitching about their performance comes from people comparing them to guns that would be completely off the table for any situation where you'd specifically want a suppressor and subsonic ammo, and retards who think popular video games actually portray guns accurately.
Idk but they look pretty cool, and I hanged a man or two in my time but that don't make me a judge, so I don't presume to judge no Ruskies, but you gotta be fuller'an a tick on stump liquor to think subsonic only is a great idea!
I imagine they were good for role they were made for, counter terrorism and anticriminal activity, not so much for real warfare and long distance combat.
Who knows? Its a weapon for short ranges and unsuspecting targets, so it shouldn't have been widely issued in this war; but it seems like they've been handed out to whole squads in some units and so its understandably not performed very well. It was always a doctrinal counterpoint to an MP5SD or suppressed 10/22, so its really weird to see them being used in protracted firefights in flat open ground. IMO, they should have been putting their few thermals on them and using them as night-fighting rifles for troops in the cities; so as to play to the rifles strengths.
>Were these actually effective?
I'd much rather have a decent bolt acftion 22 witha silencer and match grade subsonics. more accurate, range about teh same, more silent and it has to be dime accurate spine, medula, ear etc to instakill with either of them on someone wearing kevlar
I used them to great effect in STALKER. I took down a whole lot of mercs, monolith, and military stalkers with them, I didn't even bother with the dragunov
You want something to fill the space in the first baffle to absorb the heat of the gasses a bit more. Steel wool or wire is often used but in this case they used something that was at hand.
you must be braindead if you think these two are in any way comparable
a) look brah not everyone disagreeing with you or liking vss is a vatnik
b) how is it better? Is it better because 'more baffles = better'?
it looks so much heavier. and how do you even clean this shit?
It's better because it's more advanced and thought out than 3 flat baffles made of sheet metal. A piece of junk like the VSS looks like a garage project some teenager did and some fuckwits compare it to something actually designed by humans.
If you look at the cope morons go througn to defend their piece of shit video game peashooter there's no way they aren't vatniks.
>It's better because it's more advanced and thought out than 3 flat baffles made of sheet metal.
Yes, we get it, but how does the actual performance compare?
>it's more advanced and thought out than 3 flat baffles made of sheet metal
define "more advanced" and "thought out"
putting whatever number of baffles that can physically fit in a can will probably get the job done
but I just don't see how this approach is high-tech, sorry
if you can achieve the same results with less baffles while not sacrificing anything of importance isn't it a more advanced and thought out solution?
I'm not even claiming those cans achieve the same effect
In fact other than having anecdotal 3rd hand evidence from youtube and articles I have no idea how good vss noise suppression is, although I've yet to hear a single complaint about it in that department
I'm just arguing because I'm really annoyed by your pigheaded relentless
by any chance you aren't the same anon that claimed that vss/val is designed solely for cqb, are you?
>it's bad... because it just is, don't question it
You can cope all you want but VAL is a shit gun with the worst suppressor design of the last half a century. It's just bad and you're only saved from eating shit by the fact that this gun was never made in meaningful numbers.
>and how do you even clean this shit?
You don't. A lot of older suppressors (excluding models that used wipes) weren't intended to be disassembled and regularly had parts welded in place. Cleaning would be done by bringing it to a shop that would dip it in some really nasty chemicals that you definitely don't want to get on you (one of them for lead removal converts the lead into a form that can be readily absorbed through your skin).
These guns where used by recon squads and some swat teams due to the lack of suppresed firearms
If you look at the pics of elite russian forces from the last 10 years they are using ak 74s
We have like 5 pics of as val and vss from ukraine
it's made for kgb to help the free and non enslaved people of the soviet union to die of natural causes. It's only practical use it excels at is shooting down icicles that are formed thanks to awful insulation of commie blocks.
It's basically an oversized pistol that needs to be fully disassembled for cleaning after a dozen rounds because of the shitty design and dirt ammo. Better than a pointy stick but not by much.
>needs to be fully disassembled for cleaning after a dozen rounds because of the shitty design and dirt ammo
This adequately describes how my FAL reacted to me putting a can on it.
Went from being a gun that never jammed to total pile of unreliable moron's shit.
Sold it.
>ITT: PrepHole pretends that the VSS and VAL werent designed in the early 80s and werent replaced by pic related in the 90s and the design hasnt continued iterative improvements like the SR3MP since
Seems like they're mostly issued to domestic police and anti-terror units which is consistent with the design philosophy behind the gun and round.
The VSS is maybe one of the coolest-looking guns of all time but it was the first generation of a design that's now on gen 5-ish.
Honestly do feel bad for the dudes issued them for frontline open combat tho it aint for that.
>werent replaced by pic related in the 90s and the design hasnt continued iterative improvements like the SR3MP since
No they were not.
Since the VSS/VAL nothing has gotten enough traction to appear anywhere outside of a select few MVD units.
Russians dont throw anything away, there are photos of VDV units in Syria w Type 1 AKs. The fact that newer systems have superceded older ones doesnt mean they're going to continue their long-established practice of "cleaning out the fridge" by cannon fodder units older weapons.
Especially given the primary fielding of the SR3 and SR3M is relegated to basically swat teams and domestic antiterror teams, and their military procurement and production infrastructure is so corrupt and dysfunctional that they probably did try to procure newer weapons (and optics and armor and tents and food and ammunition) only to be greeted w8th apathetic shrugs and supplies 15+ years older than the average russian soldier.
My point stands that the design weakpoints of the meme gun people are bitching about ITT have been addressed for nearly 30 years and seemingly to at least some success.
....bitch are you just reading the first sentence of every post then replying?
There are units from donbabwe using mosins from WW2 right now lol. The situation in your pic is addressed pretty comprehensively by >their military procurement and production infrastructure is so corrupt and dysfunctional that they probably did try to procure newer weapons (and optics and armor and tents and food and ammunition) only to be greeted with apathetic shrugs and supplies 15+ years older than the average russian soldier
They didnt throw that shit away, it was fuckin sold to terrorists and autistic americans for rock-bottom prices by NCOs who didnt give a shit and realized they could make a quick buck.
The same reason VDV guys are using VSSs instead of SR3MPs: each discreet department has a "fuck you, got mine" attitude and if they have nice shit they're keeping it. That doesnt mean the fucking guns don't exist, it just means that russians have supply chains that make 3rd world militias look like the DoD.
>werent replaced by pic related in the 90s
LMAO
>ITT: vatmorons pretend russia can innovate or make anything modern again
VAL is a 90s gun that had one batch of them made and dumped into police warehouses for special police to ransack on occasion if there is a guy who's willing to use that shit
That's not a VAL retard, and I literally said the Vikhr variants are largely relegated to police and counterterror use.
The fact that you tourist gays see me saying something that can be interpreted as even remotely positive about Russian engineering (that the VSS and VAL are designs from the early 80s that have a lot of problems that have been addressed in leter iterations of the platform) and take this to be me saying "mother russia stronk" is a real testament to how fucking retarded this place has gotten.
You are a shit slupring slavaboo moron jerking off to fictional guns and lying about things you'll never get to own because you're a subhuman manchild with 0 working braincells.
have a nice day, preferably by drowning yourself in sewage.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Ok retard. Dont forget to tell everyone at r/ukraine how hard you owned me
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I'll be sure to tell your mom this evening. We'll be sure to enjoy watching vids of your countrymen blown to bits like lab rats together.
>VDV guys are using VSSs instead of SR3MPs
They don't, you absolute moron shill. Russia never develops, never fields anything. It's all your stupid fantasy, it's made up. You're making shit up just to jerk off to a videogame gun that's never been meaningfully used.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Ok lol
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>some nobodies robbed a scrapyard russians call a warehouse therefore it's totally a legit decision guise
you just pictured an average VSS "enjoyer"
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>ukrainian uniform holding VAL >VDV guy on the ground with his brains painted all over the street
Sure man >"you just pictured an average VSS "enjoyer""
Based ESL retard lmao the fuck are you even trying to say
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You're just to stupid to understand coherent speech, vatmoron.
Literally a moron brain, that's why you're juerking off to a shit gun like vss.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I hope you and your family will get beaten to death soon. You shills running around shitting PrepHole for so long is a travesty.
Yeah for sure big dog I'm posting photos of dead russians and saying that the VSS and VAL had significant engineering issues and that I pity the men who have been issued the guns for general fighting because I'm a russian shill you definitely habe a working brain and havent been huffing paint fumes since the day you were born.
You need more english lessons by the way, it's honestly very easy to tell you're not a native speaker.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I-i'm not a vatmoron shill i swear! Why you no believings me i even posted some dead russians in between my obvious russian dicksucking!
Get out and never come back.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Rangebanning all non-American IP addresses to do away with retards like you would do so fucking much to improve this place lmao.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Copying things directed at you will not make you look smarter, vatmoron.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
How does posting dead Russian = vatnik?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Dont try to engage man once you get these morons riled up there's no calming them down until it's out of their system.
It's honestly a shame but the odds that he's had lead pipes in his home his entire life seem to be about 300%
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>VSS is of superior slavic engineering, totally betters than anything built decades before it that i'll claim as contemporary tech and newerst totally fielded variants make this the betterest things ever fellow westerners. What do you mean it's not good i just told you it's the goodest thing ever! >No i'm not a vatnik, here's a post of dead russian, you trust me now, da?
Very inconHispanicious.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>you are not allowed to think anything the soviets made was cool or you are vatnik
fuck off lad >I don't even need arguments, I call you a vatnik = I win
this has some strong race-card/gender-card vibes, and I don't like it
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You’re arguing with retards Anon, just move on.
On the other hand, this photo was unironically where I realizes Russia was going to lose. On the first day. >try to take hostomel >alfa and vympel running all over kiev the day/night before marking drop zones and targets >immediately get spotted and chased throughout the city by police >slaughtered to a man on a bridge trying to escape kiev in cars >vdv operation totally blown, launch anyways next morning >immediately losing choppers >VDV slaughtered to the last man on tarmac
And then there was Magomedev getting drone’d that night too, pucciya literally lost all of their “elite” units in about 48hrs. >Hostomel will be used as an example of one of the absolute worst attempts to seize an airfield for decades
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>You’re arguing with retards Anon, just move on
You're right lol as soon as he started dropping articles and trying to call me a vatnik I should've just quit (You)ing him >this photo was unironically where I realizes Russia was going to lose. On the first day.
Same lol
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
yay, got anything more about this?
somehow I missed all the Vympel shenanigans happening.
Also I believe at least part of the VDV managed to fuck off to woods.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Hostomel will be used as an example of one of the absolute worst attempts to seize an airfield for decades
on a tactical level they did great, it's just that the operational and strategic plans were garbage.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
This. Essentially they had no plan B when plan A failed, plan C?
Well plan C turned into a 10 mile long traffic jam.
Light airborn infantry and special forces shit the bed without support.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
This. Essentially they had no plan B when plan A failed, plan C?
Well plan C turned into a 10 mile long traffic jam.
Light airborn infantry and special forces shit the bed without support.
lol what a fucking retard take. >your recon and forward observers are spotted before operation even begins >launch operation anyways knowing you haven’t accomplished sead >lose multiple chalks en route >barely control tarmac for more than 2hrs and fail to land a single plane >send in the remainder of your glorious VEH DEH VEH to die with their comrades on tarmac
Pure fucking retard vatnik cocksuckers.
Let’s take a look at the American side where the airborne forces are competent and not a bunch of try hard (dead) gays. >Operation Rhino >RRD infiltrates before mission, doesnt get spotted, identifies all AA capabilities >AC-130s and B52s btfo all AA before operation >75th drops >airfield + permieter secured in less than 2hrs >land planes before dawn
And to really give ‘em the ol’ razzle dazzle? We ran the whole fucking operation at night under NODs.
And this was 20 years before Pucciya even ran this shit show of an airborne op.
Absolute fucking embarrassment.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
A retarded take is what happened?
The russians captured the hostomel airport, but they couldnt support the VDV soon enough before ukrainian regulars arrived and annihilated them.
The entire plan for the russians around kiev hinged on hostomel.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The russians captured the hostomel airport
That’s a funny way of saying they didn’t land a single support aircraft before the runway was cratered and they were butchered to the last man by a ragtag force of city cops and conscripts, but you know, keep going off or whatever. >at least they fought and died gloriously for a few hours! >if only OMON had arrived!
lmao, the most third place finish cope I’ve heard in a minute.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
So what you're saying is that they didn't take the airport, and the entire operation was a failure?
Sorry for tiggering your autism you fucking imbeciles. I suppose the germans on the eastern front never took anything either since they ultimately lost the war.
airborn infantry and special forces shit the bed without support
>That’s a funny way of saying they didn’t land a single support aircraft before the runway was cratered and they were butchered to the last man by a ragtag force of city cops and conscripts, but you know, keep going off or whatever.
Seems like thats exactly what anon said.
Salty euros rope asap pls.
>Operation is blown before it even begins >Let’s send men to their death anyways and hope for the best! >Oh boy we should have had better support!
Weird, it’s almost like forethought and planning are central to military success. Something pucciya has yet to grasp.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>muh muh goalpost shifting
You see anon, that is whats known as a comparative example, not goal post shifting.
I know english is your second language but thats not an excuse to be wilfully ignorant.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>comparison
You haven’t made any comparisons. All you’ve done is reposted inaccurate info on hostomel.
Back to your containment board, tourist.
How is it a retarded take to point out that their failures were strategic and operational in nature? Do you think any of those stupid things that you mentioned were the fault of the VDV guys on the ground? There was no possibility that they could have taken that airport, and the VDV gave their best shot at accomplishing something that wasn't possible, with realistic results. They weren't even in a position to mutiny, since they weren't told they were invading Ukraine until they were on the ground. >look at the American side
every success you describe was the result of good operational planning and giving the airborne forces an operation they could handle. Asking airborne forces to take an airfield from the Taliban with heavy air support, at night, when you have NODs and the enemy doesn't, is something those forces were very able to do. This is like if Bush had personally demanded that the Rangers take Saddam International Airport on day 1 of OIF. If the Rangers had failed to pull that off, it wouldn't have been a sign that the Rangers sucked, it would have been a sign that Bush shouldn't have been allowed to tell the Rangers what to do.
>There was no possibility that they could have taken that airport >They weren't even in a position to mutiny
Do you realize just how pathetic this sounds? Your most elite units wasted on day 1 and your cope is that someone else is to blame, that they couldn’t “mutiny?” >blah blah blah if Bush had
Yeah, but he didn’t, did he?
So here we sit watching pucciya shit the bed day after day while you make vague, sad, comparative “what if” excuses.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Its not an innaccurate statement anon, im just not framing it how youd like so youre having a bit of a fit about it.
The vdv did defeat the defenders of the airport, but were counter attacked and destroyed before support could arrive.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The vdv did defeat the defenders of the airport, but >but
There is no “but,” Anon. You either took the airport or you didn’t. >we were in control of it for a few hours!
lol
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Your most elite units wasted on day 1
I'm not Russian and I don't support the Russians, I'm saying that the VDV were being sent into such an obviously suicidal situation that their only real chance of surviving was to mutiny. I'm amazed by your inability to conceive of the possibility that anyone who points out that the VDV guys on the ground weren't bad at their jobs is anything but a Russian who is unable to emotionally deal with the cream of their military being destroyed in a stupid operation that wouldn't have happened if smarter people were in charge. >you make vague, sad, comparative “what if” excuses.
no, I pointed out why your analogy was a bad fucking analogy and gave an idea of what an actual equivalent operation would have been. You are about as fucking dumb as the Russians you hate so much.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Nobody has once accused you of being a vatnik, I know well that you’re just a deluded gay so stop with the self victimizing. >were being sent into such an obviously suicidal situation that their only real chance of surviving was to mutiny.
If someone as moronic as you knows this and is stating it, what does that say about the pucciyan military in general?
And why try to defend it?
lol >VDV guys on the ground weren't bad at their jobs
If their job as pucciya’s supposedly “elite” airborne troops was to die at the hands of police and conscripts, sure, they were great at their jobs. >VDV was gud bois, they dindu nuffin >shoigu is to blame!
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Nobody has once accused you of being a vatnik
You said your, I quoted your post directly where you accused me of being Russian. Why are you even trying to lie about this? >what does that say about the pucciyan military in general?
That they should mutiny wholesale and overthrow their government? I don't see why you are so obsessed with the idea that I'm some Russian nationalist because I think the VDV did the best they could at Hostomel given the circumstances. >If their job as pucciya’s supposedly “elite” airborne troops was to die at the hands of police and conscripts, sure, they were great at their jobs.
Their jobs were to land at the airfield and make it be full of Russians with guns instead of Ukrainians with guns. They were able to do this for about as long as it would take to actually start landing troops there if the Russians could actually have landed troops there at all. Unfortunately for them it was a dumb fucking idea to use the airport to land troops to occupy Kiev, especially when it's within range of a of AA systems and artillery from the city itself. There was really no reason to try and take the airport unless there wasn't any meaningful resistance after the first day or two. >VDV was gud bois, they dindu nuffin
no, they were probably involved in some of the war crimes in Bucha, but that doesn't mean they were bad at doing air assaults. >shoigu is to blame!
Shoigu was put in charge by Putin to basically enable corruption, so he is mostly to blame for the poor state of the Russian military alongside Putin himself. The guy before him got sacked because he tried to institute more meaningful reforms that would have rocked the corruption gravy train.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>opperation goes poorly >Is ultimately a failure >therefore events that transpired, uh, didnt transpire
Im sorry anon, should I bracket my posts with vatmorons getting droned so you can believe someone could possibly have a discussion on this board in good faith?
Ive literally said m exactly what youre saying, please try to control yourself.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
airborn infantry and special forces shit the bed without support
>That’s a funny way of saying they didn’t land a single support aircraft before the runway was cratered and they were butchered to the last man by a ragtag force of city cops and conscripts, but you know, keep going off or whatever.
Seems like thats exactly what anon said.
Salty euros rope asap pls.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
So what you're saying is that they didn't take the airport, and the entire operation was a failure?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
How is it a retarded take to point out that their failures were strategic and operational in nature? Do you think any of those stupid things that you mentioned were the fault of the VDV guys on the ground? There was no possibility that they could have taken that airport, and the VDV gave their best shot at accomplishing something that wasn't possible, with realistic results. They weren't even in a position to mutiny, since they weren't told they were invading Ukraine until they were on the ground. >look at the American side
every success you describe was the result of good operational planning and giving the airborne forces an operation they could handle. Asking airborne forces to take an airfield from the Taliban with heavy air support, at night, when you have NODs and the enemy doesn't, is something those forces were very able to do. This is like if Bush had personally demanded that the Rangers take Saddam International Airport on day 1 of OIF. If the Rangers had failed to pull that off, it wouldn't have been a sign that the Rangers sucked, it would have been a sign that Bush shouldn't have been allowed to tell the Rangers what to do.
Shamefully I am phonefagging rn and can't find the specific photo I'm talking about but it's a VDV guy manning a checkpoint in Syria directing a line of civilians in probably 2016 or 2017 with a type 1 AK slung across his chest.
>Shamefully I am phonefagging rn and can't find the specific photo I'm talking about but it's a VDV guy manning a checkpoint in Syria directing a line of civilians in probably 2016 or 2017 with a type 1 AK slung across his chest.
thx anyway anon, I knw there was a pic taken last year after ukraine had kicked off of a guy with a UF ak and I was wondering if you were talking about that one
>ITT: vatmorons pretend russia can innovate or make anything modern again
VAL is a 90s gun that had one batch of them made and dumped into police warehouses for special police to ransack on occasion if there is a guy who's willing to use that shit
Ok now that this thread has apparently riled up a suffient pack of ESL retards it's time to dip. Peace, gays, this board is a leddit colony now and you'll never know what you missed out on
I haven't seen a single proof that Vintorez was any good posted, ever. It always seem to be people who have never even looked at it outside of a video game that obsess over it.
I've read russian accounts on it and it doesn't look impressive at all.
9x39 and 300blk subsonic has similar ballistics out of one of those things as .45acp so I imagine it'd be pretty good for assassinations, which is what this was intended for.
be subsonic and still punch through captured soviet soft armor. it was a gun designed to shoot guard dogs in afghanistan, all other uses with CT and police came well after the fact.
I don't understand this thread. Who said guns had to be current meta to be cool? If that were the case, nobody would care about Wa2000s or spas 12s or any cold war battle rifle. The whole mindset is some boring ass lucas botkin ar+glock gayry. I thought it went without saying that the VSS was a rough and unimpressive piece of engineering, I remember people used to always obsess over how gougy the machining marks were in those receiver internal pics from the kuzmin VSS photoset; back in maybe 2013-14.
Specifically the claim of the Barrikada slug being able to "destroy the engine block of a car at up to 100 meters". Then you also have the claims of it being actually underpowered for its size and being in practice a small-caliber riot grenade launcher instead of some sort of elephant gun.
Specifically the claim of the Barrikada slug being able to "destroy the engine block of a car at up to 100 meters". Then you also have the claims of it being actually underpowered for its size and being in practice a small-caliber riot grenade launcher instead of some sort of elephant gun.
The buckshot rounds are roughly equivalent to mild 12ga loads. Magnum 12 or 10ga loads completely mog it.
It annoys me how much gays fellate the Russian meme shotgun while nobody talks about local actual heavy hitters.
Specifically the claim of the Barrikada slug being able to "destroy the engine block of a car at up to 100 meters". Then you also have the claims of it being actually underpowered for its size and being in practice a small-caliber riot grenade launcher instead of some sort of elephant gun.
https://i.imgur.com/2kk7NAe.jpg
[...]
[...]
It annoys me how much gays fellate the Russian meme shotgun while nobody talks about local actual heavy hitters.
The more I look at this shit the more I think a .45 acp pcc is peak subsonic, which would be the first time I ever considered a pcc.
>fuck up so many 23mm barrels you have to find something to do with them >make a rifled meme shotgun
Russia: We need a riot grenade launcher but 40mm VOGs are a piece of shit, let's try 23mm, that'll give us quick follow ups and still let us use larger shells as a rifle grenades/muzzle cup grenades. We even have barrels for it!
America: >HOLY SHIT >OH MAMA >HOLY SHIT >4 GAUGE SHOTGUN >HOLY SHIT BASED RUSSIA SHOT 4 GAUGE SHOTGUN AT PEOPLE >WISH I HAD A 4 GAUGE SHOTGUN TO SHOOT AT THE RANGE (he can but too stupid to realize) >HELLUVA BOOMSTICK >NOT LIKE OUR WEAKSAUCE 12 GAUGE SHOTGUNS >WHAT'S THAT? 37MM RIOT GUNS? NEVER HEARD OF THAT >NOW THIS BOOMSTICK
Given how often 7.62x39mm gets compared to .300 Blackout, it surprises me that the Russians never tried to use it for their sneeky breeki rifles instead of developing a brand new unicorn round.
It's not so much this as it was the other engineering constraints around the round. 7.62x39 subs are (or were I havent tried to buy any since russian ammp got b&) pretty easily available and works great in modern guns and modern suppressors. The reality though is that AKs kinda suppress like shit. Piston pop alone is above ear safe levels and most of the rifles are overgassed as fuck. Now combine that w 1980s soviet tech and the specific design constraints of the gun (essentially an urban extreme CQ gun that's ALSO super quiet and ALSO punched through (at the time) likely body armor threats, and the design decisions make sense, according to their goals, tech knowledge, and engineering constraints at the time.
Also worth pointing out that they absolutely did utilize cans with 7.62x39 guns, the suppressor in
https://i.imgur.com/jy0V7Rx.jpg
Russians dont throw anything away, there are photos of VDV units in Syria w Type 1 AKs. The fact that newer systems have superceded older ones doesnt mean they're going to continue their long-established practice of "cleaning out the fridge" by cannon fodder units older weapons.
Especially given the primary fielding of the SR3 and SR3M is relegated to basically swat teams and domestic antiterror teams, and their military procurement and production infrastructure is so corrupt and dysfunctional that they probably did try to procure newer weapons (and optics and armor and tents and food and ammunition) only to be greeted w8th apathetic shrugs and supplies 15+ years older than the average russian soldier.
My point stands that the design weakpoints of the meme gun people are bitching about ITT have been addressed for nearly 30 years and seemingly to at least some success.
is 1960s tech (and as a result kinda shitty) but they wanted something quieter that could also pen the armor they were worried about, the logic behind slowing the bullet down and making it bigger to compensate does make sense.
In a modern context, yeah lol just run subsonic 7.62x39 in a suppressed ak104-sized package. You'd get probably similar suppression performance, the AP properties of 9x39 are kinda questionable in current year esp for the drawbacks etc.
>Now combine that w 1980s soviet tech and the specific design constraints of the gun (essentially an urban extreme CQ gun that's ALSO super quiet and ALSO punched through (at the time) likely body armor threats[)]
It's nice to see this put so well. >the AP properties of 9x39 are kinda questionable in current year esp for the drawbacks
what drawbacks are there to 9x39 compared to 7.62 subsonic aside from cost? I'd figure the little bit of extra armor piercing capability would be nice, especially if you're doing sneaky shit in the rear lines where your opposition might not be wearing the best body armor.
>it surprises me that the Russians never tried to use it for their sneeky breeki rifles
well do I have good news for you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBS-1_silencer
they actually did, but suppressed aks are a hell of a drug, so they tried making a better option
which, for the role, vss/val is undoubtedly is
[...]
is it though? I think you are confusing it for 5,45 which in fact has these issues
as far as I understand this was the reason to keep 7,62 akms in inventory for military even up to today, You can find plenty of photos with russian soldiers equipped with akm pattern rifles with pbs1 all the way through 2010s
7.62x39 has too much case capacity, they cant make bullets heavy enough to get subsonic. well, at least while still being powerful enough to cycle a gas gun
i experimented with brown bear subsonic and it was still super out of a 16" barrel
Yeah I guess I never shot it with a decibel meter my dumb ass just put it through my gun+can and went "yeah that's definitely quieter but still loud as fuck" lol but the rounds work well. I'll defer to your experience there.
>Now combine that w 1980s soviet tech and the specific design constraints of the gun (essentially an urban extreme CQ gun that's ALSO super quiet and ALSO punched through (at the time) likely body armor threats[)]
It's nice to see this put so well. >the AP properties of 9x39 are kinda questionable in current year esp for the drawbacks
what drawbacks are there to 9x39 compared to 7.62 subsonic aside from cost? I'd figure the little bit of extra armor piercing capability would be nice, especially if you're doing sneaky shit in the rear lines where your opposition might not be wearing the best body armor.
>what drawbacks are there to 9x39 compared to 7.62 subsonic aside from cost?
Again no firsthand experience with the former obviously just going off footage and testimonials but it drops like a motherfucker, which doesnt matter in within it's intended use parameters but even in the city fighting we're seeing in ukraine apparently it's significant enough to create issues. This isn't something I experienced w 7.62 subs but if the anon above is correct and they werent actually subsonic it definitely subverts what I'm talking about.
What is the sr3m
Careful anon if you bring up the SR3M an ESL retard might start screaming about how you're secretly a russian
>it drops like a motherfucker
that's mostly a matter of velocity, and I think the more massive projectile would be less effected by air resistance when moving at the same velocity.
>it surprises me that the Russians never tried to use it for their sneeky breeki rifles
well do I have good news for you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBS-1_silencer
they actually did, but suppressed aks are a hell of a drug, so they tried making a better option
which, for the role, vss/val is undoubtedly is
it's challenging to make 7.62x39 reliably subsonic
is it though? I think you are confusing it for 5,45 which in fact has these issues
as far as I understand this was the reason to keep 7,62 akms in inventory for military even up to today, You can find plenty of photos with russian soldiers equipped with akm pattern rifles with pbs1 all the way through 2010s
Never really thought about it but knowing how Russia tried to one-up the US on alot of equipment during the Cold War imma say its their answer to Mk22 Hushpuppy, that slide lock single shot pistol from 'Nam.
Also hated how the Stalker games were built around VSS. Gun was OP as fuck. Lvl 4 penetration? Ya ok..
karden was mid-tier police sf, if he posted that shit 10+ years ago that means even his shit underfunded unit got some of them. comparing those shitty sekrit meme guns to jet fighters is just retarded
> light
> integrally suppressed with subsonic, integrally-suppressed, armor-piercing round
> left over from the real GRU
What do you think?
>integrally suppressed with subsonic, integrally-suppressed, armor-piercing round
Armor piecing of what lvl 1a vests? These were meant for hosing down unarmored terrorists and hostages
I mean, there is google, right?
>The Vintorez is chambered for 9x39 mm cartridge. This rifle uses the SP-5 and SP-6 subsonic ammunition. Primary is the SP-6 armor piercing round. It has a hardened steel penetrator. It penetrates 6 mm steel plate at a range of 200 m and 2 mm steel plate at a range of 500 m. This round penetrates most military body armors at ranges of 300-400 meters. The SP-5 is a ball round, fitted with heavy bullet.
http://www.military-today.com/firearms/vintorez.htm
That's cap 100% there's plenty of vids of this shit round failing to pen helmets at 25 yards, let alone lvl 3-4 plates which is what "most" soldiers now use. Event full power 308 flying at 2700fps fails to pen lvl 3, let alone some vatnig round flying at a snails pace
if there was a video you'd have posted one.
inb4 coping with "muh spoonfeeding"
>there's plenty of vids of this shit round failing to pen helmets at 25 yards
Never saw a single video like that. Post it?
>6mm steel plate
5.56 M193 routinely clears 7-8mm of RHA at that distance, with ~8mm also being the average thickness of steel plates advertised as "Level III" """armor""".
With that said, it will easily blow through any soft armor vest and then some, which was the design intent.
The "steel" in that context is mild steel, not RHA. Russians call their mild steel ST3 in such testing.
I can personally say that I have had trouble penning 10mm of bum ass industrial stainless steel at 25yd with m193 so I really doubt that it can penetrate 8mm of RHA at 200
M855 wasn't much better it just left a cool plug in the divot
Lmao out of what barrel, 5"?
M193 pens even some "level III" steel plates, it eats mild steel for breakfast.
12.5 at 25 yd
it was about as mild as mild steel comes
maybe 5.56 isn't as good at penetrating steel as you think
>maybe 5.56 isn't as good at penetrating steel as you think
Yeah it's not like I specifically tested this exact same thing before or anything lmfao
i'm gonna have my buddy send me a picture of the plate we lit up so you can see what i'm talking about
there were a couple penetrations but they appear to be due to multiple strikes in the same place
Not all steel is 1:1 for RHA
>almost no steel is 1:1 for RHA
FTFY
>500m
you'll be aiming at the sun to hit anything that far away with this subsonic turd round. The gun is a meme, like most Russian junk. The concept of .300blk where you can be sneaky and then switch to supersonic ammo if you need to and then have an actual rifle is way more practical
also the VSS only has like 10 or 20 round magazines because the rounds are so thicc
>subsonic ammunition
but why?
>armor piercing
>subsonic
Doubt
Congratulations, retards. You fell for the meme.
The military 9x39 loads will penetrate Russian GOST 3 armor (capable of stopping 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 ball). That's somewhere between IIIA and III.
The equivalent of NIJ lvl III would be GOST 5 (capable of stopping 7.62x54R ball).
That is what they were designed for. That is what they can do.
>This round penetrates most military body armors at ranges of 300-400 meters.
No it doesn't.
It does when most military body armor is PASGT without ISAPO like when it was invented.
Considering the quality of russian body armor...
It's surprising russians haven't tried making tungsten cored 9x18 yet with all the expensive ammo fsb and spetznaz apparently can afford to shoot.
You are a dumbass, that's old Soviet police knife-proof armor, it's not meant to stop bullets
>low velocity armorpiercing
Mhm, sure thing kid.
>250gr piece of tool steel flying at subsonic velocity
>armor piercing
Pick one and only one, anon. The Russians don't get a pass on physics, except perhaps with how far tank turrets can fly. Also, you should know better than to take Russian performance claims as factual at this point.
>"""armor-piercing"""
No. I actually served with a guy who survived a headshot from 130 meters (no helmet).
Story?
The impression I've gotten from talking to ukrainian soldiers who have fought guys using them is that the bullet is slow as fuck and drops like a motherfucker, to the point where whoever is shooting at them with one can't hit shit.
what Brass Pro Shop does he work at?
Aren't their suppressors just fitted with like 2 washers?
from what i remember for herreras vid it was 3 angled baffle wall basically,
overall its kinda silly concept to try to have both ap and subsonic and a large diameter heavy bullet, 300 blackout is a better idea cause of the option of choosing a load
Theoretically it might a decent idea as a concept for counter-terrorism and hostage shenanigans where you won't realistically be taking shots past 50 meters. At least assuming that it works as intended.
Every video comparing the two shows 9x39 coming out on top.
Yeap, but 3
It's still supposedly quite af
And understandably so, i mean look at the size of that thing, with so much volume, you really don't need a complex system of baffles
The average retard tradie here can design a can 1/4th the size with the same amount of silencing capability, a weapon made solely for cqb should not be wasting space that retardedly
>a weapon made solely for cqb should not be wasting space that retardedly
good to know we can agree on some things
But I think it's equally retarded to claim that VSS or VAL were designed "solely for CQB" (or CQB in general for that matter)
Why Russian special police forces loved posing with one in CQB scenarios is another matter, retardnes might be involved, but it's definitely not the engineers' fault
tldr
it's a specialized weapon for taking out sentries and it can afford a large volume suppressor, which allows a simple design of one
It's actually worse than that.
People rip on this every time it gets posted, but how bad is it actually when it comes to performance? The MP5SD also used a design that really wouldn't fly by today's standards.
Its performance in terms of noise is not that great, it's louder than most suppressed western guns, however the main problem with the suppressor is just the fact that the inefficient design makes the thing so heavy and huge. For example, the actual useful barrel length of the VSS is only 4.7", about the same as a full size 1911. The rest is just porting and the suppressor which along the stock and the receiver make the gun closer to an AK in size.
a modern suppressor and no barrel porting would fix that though
Yeah, they would if they did this. But they don't.
>neuron activated
if im remembering correctly there are more updated versions of the VAL. i have no clue how good they work but im 99% sure they have made a model that fires properly without the can on it.
They do. SR3M Vihkr.
pointless varpoware
That's what your mom said about you.
i actually appear outside way more often than your failed abortion of a gun
We really wish you wouldn't.
i wish i could make you subhumans feel even less comfortable here too
???
???
>4.7", about the same as a full size 1911
fuck lusting over a VSS, seems I'd be better of paying one or two tax stamps and becoming a .300 blk fag
Why do you feel that's an issue? Guns in .300 BLK designed for subsonic use commonly have 6" barrels. You don't need that much barrel if you aren't driving a bullet to supersonic velocities.
because all things considered, the VSS doesn't seem that great. Sure you get a compact profile and integral suppression, but four baffles, a barrel that doesn't even reach the aforementioned 6", and the combined weight just seems laughable when you can easily configure something non import banned that does a better job in just about every measure
I would sure hope that an AR in a round less than 15 years old and a modern flow-through suppressor would be able to outperform a rifle from the late 80s. I don't think anybody is interested in these guns for the sake of peak efficiency.
That's fine but that goes back to my original point - to hell with wanting a VSS when there's more efficient options made with less unobtainium
so what are these out of the factory options?
Holy shit anonymous I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to like the VSS I'm saying this for myself and have been the whole time.
I will never understand why people get so attached to their favorite bang stick from call of duty
same reason people want a Ferrari even though they get shit mileage and have poor ground clearance, because they're cool. I don't know why you're being so obtuse about this, even the most robotic autist understands that guns have never just been tools and there's always been a romantic attachment to some designs over others.
you don't have to be so defensive about some mediocre russian prototype from the 80s either
I wasn't being defensive, its just weird you think its insightful that a modern gun is going to be better than a 40 year old gun. Like yeah, that's how linear time works; older things are less developed than newer more developed things.
I never said anything of that sort. You don't have to be so defensive of a gun you'll never get to hold in your hands so as to constantly bring this up.
>a barrel that doesn't even reach the aforementioned 6",
Again, why do you feel this is a problem? Besides that, the appeal of the VSS for most people has always been its aesthetic. If you're just interested in performance, suppressor design and precision shooting has come a very long way since the VSS was designed, considering work started on it before Chernobyl happened.
You're saying it like VSS had been up to par with recent tech when it was designed.
Explain why you feel it wasn't.
Subsonic rifle ammo basically performs like pistol ammo except for being more aerodynamic, so unless they had the AP ammo for it, there's no reason for a modern kevlar helmet (which are commonly NIJ IIIa rated and will stop .44 magnum) not to stop it.
this pic here says all
1920s state of the art
And the finest Teutonic craftsmanship at the time looked like this:
. Suppressors were a lot more primitive a few decades back. Especially ones designed to stand up to military use.
you must be braindead if you think these two are in any way comparable
>zoom zoom can't believe that the 80s weren't just like today
you must be braindead if you think these two are in any way comparable
>posts something that didn't see near the level of adoption as the VSS and was for people with more than just designated marksman level training
>the level of adoption as the VSS
200 rifles got sent to rot in the warehouses of some corrupt police warehouse/garbage dump?
we're reaching cope levels never seen before here
I accept your defeat
and I accept yours
and I accept both of yours
>posts vatmoron fantasy to cope with them being irrelevant, uncreative and technologically backwards monkeys
You lost and you will never not eat shit.
>that minimal baffle spacing with flat baffles
That thing probably performs like shit.
>Subsonic rifle ammo basically performs like pistol ammo except for being more aerodynamic
What the fuck am I reading?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP
>230 gr (15 g) FMJ, Double Tap 960 ft/s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Blackout
>220 gr (14 g) OTM 1,010 ft/s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x39mm
>16.1 g (248 gr) SP5 290 m/s (950 ft/s)
>16.2 g (250 gr) SP6 305 m/s (1,000 ft/s)
Do you not realize that rifles get their higher muzzle energy and improved terminal performance over handgun ammo from higher velocities, and that subsonic ammo sacrifices that? All you're left with for advantages over handgun ammo is a more aerodynamic bullet shape.
>Again, why do you feel this is a problem? Besides that, the appeal of the VSS for most people has always been its aesthetic.
To add, the military 9x39mm loadings use a 250 grain bullet and .300 BLK subsonic loadings are int the 200-220 grain range, vs the 230 grains of .45 ACP ball.
The longer cartridge length means you get a more aerodynamic bullet with smaller baffle holes but pretty much this. Subs cuck a cartridge ridiculously even the heaviest and fastest subsonic 9x39 loads are about the power of .30 carbine supers. 9x39 in terms of most common bullet weights is comparable to .44 magnum but .44 mag at least doubles the muzzle energy with supers.
It's fine for its age and niche but probably became a status symbol because the intended spec ops use that everyone wanted em, like middle east krinks except even less effective. It's also a ridiculous amount of effort towards making it armor piercing because only FSB and spetnaz can afford stuffing tungsten into a round going 1k fps.
A .45 acp suppressed pcc would be pretty neat to have. I was wondering about shit like .450 bushmaster but what's the point if velocity is the same and you can get 400 grain .44 mag and .45 acp.
MP5SD is over 10 years older than the VSS
Who knows? They were designed for a narrow specialist purpose that it's questionable if Russia was actually able to use them in. Most of the bitching about their performance comes from people comparing them to guns that would be completely off the table for any situation where you'd specifically want a suppressor and subsonic ammo, and retards who think popular video games actually portray guns accurately.
Idk but they look pretty cool, and I hanged a man or two in my time but that don't make me a judge, so I don't presume to judge no Ruskies, but you gotta be fuller'an a tick on stump liquor to think subsonic only is a great idea!
I imagine they were good for role they were made for, counter terrorism and anticriminal activity, not so much for real warfare and long distance combat.
probably not but they look cool so i want one in 300blk
This. All that matters. Looking good is 9/10 of the battle.
Just imagine if the Fuhrer looked like this, we'd all be speaking German right now.
>Looking good is 9/10 of the battle.
Explain why dressing everyone in Hugo Boss didn't work.
they lost the 1/10th of the battle (fighting a war)
Who knows? Its a weapon for short ranges and unsuspecting targets, so it shouldn't have been widely issued in this war; but it seems like they've been handed out to whole squads in some units and so its understandably not performed very well. It was always a doctrinal counterpoint to an MP5SD or suppressed 10/22, so its really weird to see them being used in protracted firefights in flat open ground. IMO, they should have been putting their few thermals on them and using them as night-fighting rifles for troops in the cities; so as to play to the rifles strengths.
I've seen a few with thermals and night vision scopes. The modernized versions of the VAL and VSS are usually issued with a Russian Elcan knockoff.
>The modernized versions of the VAL and VSS are usually issued with a Russian Elcan knockoff.
Got any pics of those?
The optic is called the 1P86. Switches from 1x to 4x just like an Elcan.
eyecups are gross
there is also more rare specter copy called "narodovolets"
>"narodovolets"
>"nation's choice"
>it's a fucking knockoff of a popular Canadian optic
Russia holy shit
Ukrainians captured a shitton but you only see them used once in a blue moon these days. IIRC they weren't too keen on their captures.
>Were these actually effective?
I'd much rather have a decent bolt acftion 22 witha silencer and match grade subsonics. more accurate, range about teh same, more silent and it has to be dime accurate spine, medula, ear etc to instakill with either of them on someone wearing kevlar
I used them to great effect in STALKER. I took down a whole lot of mercs, monolith, and military stalkers with them, I didn't even bother with the dragunov
dont care
i want one of each
is there a modern replacement?
What is the sr3m
posting some more pictures to make vatniks seethe
are those... pop rivets? what the fuck?
You want something to fill the space in the first baffle to absorb the heat of the gasses a bit more. Steel wool or wire is often used but in this case they used something that was at hand.
>pop rivets
I don't know if this is brilliant or just lazy.
Like all true great Americans, both
a) look brah not everyone disagreeing with you or liking vss is a vatnik
b) how is it better? Is it better because 'more baffles = better'?
it looks so much heavier. and how do you even clean this shit?
It's better because it's more advanced and thought out than 3 flat baffles made of sheet metal. A piece of junk like the VSS looks like a garage project some teenager did and some fuckwits compare it to something actually designed by humans.
If you look at the cope morons go througn to defend their piece of shit video game peashooter there's no way they aren't vatniks.
>It's better because it's more advanced and thought out than 3 flat baffles made of sheet metal.
Yes, we get it, but how does the actual performance compare?
You know how. Russian gun sucks, but it isn't in stalker so slavaboo teens cream themselves over it.
>it's bad... because it just is, don't question it
>it's more advanced and thought out than 3 flat baffles made of sheet metal
define "more advanced" and "thought out"
putting whatever number of baffles that can physically fit in a can will probably get the job done
but I just don't see how this approach is high-tech, sorry
if you can achieve the same results with less baffles while not sacrificing anything of importance isn't it a more advanced and thought out solution?
I'm not even claiming those cans achieve the same effect
In fact other than having anecdotal 3rd hand evidence from youtube and articles I have no idea how good vss noise suppression is, although I've yet to hear a single complaint about it in that department
I'm just arguing because I'm really annoyed by your pigheaded relentless
by any chance you aren't the same anon that claimed that vss/val is designed solely for cqb, are you?
You can cope all you want but VAL is a shit gun with the worst suppressor design of the last half a century. It's just bad and you're only saved from eating shit by the fact that this gun was never made in meaningful numbers.
>and how do you even clean this shit?
You don't. A lot of older suppressors (excluding models that used wipes) weren't intended to be disassembled and regularly had parts welded in place. Cleaning would be done by bringing it to a shop that would dip it in some really nasty chemicals that you definitely don't want to get on you (one of them for lead removal converts the lead into a form that can be readily absorbed through your skin).
You could just fill it with gasoline and let it sit for some quick maintenance.
A yes, wipes, the height of silencer technology.
wipes are great
what is the factory modern replacement of this? why can no cunt answer this?
The ASM is the direct modernized AS Val, the AMB-17 is the modern replacement.
forgot pic
>bottom pic
jeesus christ that's fucking ugly
These guns where used by recon squads and some swat teams due to the lack of suppresed firearms
If you look at the pics of elite russian forces from the last 10 years they are using ak 74s
We have like 5 pics of as val and vss from ukraine
the bullet's so slow and weak that you could probably catch them if you had kevlar gloves
it's made for kgb to help the free and non enslaved people of the soviet union to die of natural causes. It's only practical use it excels at is shooting down icicles that are formed thanks to awful insulation of commie blocks.
ammo is unobtanium so you're better off sticking with the 5.45 groza until you can get the railgun
It's basically an oversized pistol that needs to be fully disassembled for cleaning after a dozen rounds because of the shitty design and dirt ammo. Better than a pointy stick but not by much.
it basically looks cool so it's top tier gun
>needs to be fully disassembled for cleaning after a dozen rounds because of the shitty design and dirt ammo
This adequately describes how my FAL reacted to me putting a can on it.
Went from being a gun that never jammed to total pile of unreliable moron's shit.
Sold it.
Now consider the fact that the VAL/VSS gas system is non adjustable and the ammo is corrosive.
to be fair, I found my AK keeps running and running and running with a can on it.
What you have there is overgassed to all shit, it will keep running until it beats itself to death.
no, cunt face. I have an extra heavy spring in there and the recoil is very light.
No signs of wear on the back trunion, moron.
>After I put a can on it
>Sold it
>Put a can on
>Sold
Anon... just take the can off and it's fine again?
what's with the pool noodle handguard
blessed hush puppy
if you have an infinite supply of them? yes, and doubly so if you're doing squirrely shit behind enemy lines
but for joe schmoe wet baffles are good enough
it makes ukronibbers seth and that is all that counts
I truly don’t understand the obsession with these. It’s a worse suppressed AK
>ITT: PrepHole pretends that the VSS and VAL werent designed in the early 80s and werent replaced by pic related in the 90s and the design hasnt continued iterative improvements like the SR3MP since
Seems like they're mostly issued to domestic police and anti-terror units which is consistent with the design philosophy behind the gun and round.
The VSS is maybe one of the coolest-looking guns of all time but it was the first generation of a design that's now on gen 5-ish.
Honestly do feel bad for the dudes issued them for frontline open combat tho it aint for that.
>werent replaced by pic related in the 90s and the design hasnt continued iterative improvements like the SR3MP since
No they were not.
Since the VSS/VAL nothing has gotten enough traction to appear anywhere outside of a select few MVD units.
Russians dont throw anything away, there are photos of VDV units in Syria w Type 1 AKs. The fact that newer systems have superceded older ones doesnt mean they're going to continue their long-established practice of "cleaning out the fridge" by cannon fodder units older weapons.
Especially given the primary fielding of the SR3 and SR3M is relegated to basically swat teams and domestic antiterror teams, and their military procurement and production infrastructure is so corrupt and dysfunctional that they probably did try to procure newer weapons (and optics and armor and tents and food and ammunition) only to be greeted w8th apathetic shrugs and supplies 15+ years older than the average russian soldier.
My point stands that the design weakpoints of the meme gun people are bitching about ITT have been addressed for nearly 30 years and seemingly to at least some success.
>Russians dont throw anything away
moron.
....bitch are you just reading the first sentence of every post then replying?
There are units from donbabwe using mosins from WW2 right now lol. The situation in your pic is addressed pretty comprehensively by
>their military procurement and production infrastructure is so corrupt and dysfunctional that they probably did try to procure newer weapons (and optics and armor and tents and food and ammunition) only to be greeted with apathetic shrugs and supplies 15+ years older than the average russian soldier
They didnt throw that shit away, it was fuckin sold to terrorists and autistic americans for rock-bottom prices by NCOs who didnt give a shit and realized they could make a quick buck.
The same reason VDV guys are using VSSs instead of SR3MPs: each discreet department has a "fuck you, got mine" attitude and if they have nice shit they're keeping it. That doesnt mean the fucking guns don't exist, it just means that russians have supply chains that make 3rd world militias look like the DoD.
That's not a VAL retard, and I literally said the Vikhr variants are largely relegated to police and counterterror use.
The fact that you tourist gays see me saying something that can be interpreted as even remotely positive about Russian engineering (that the VSS and VAL are designs from the early 80s that have a lot of problems that have been addressed in leter iterations of the platform) and take this to be me saying "mother russia stronk" is a real testament to how fucking retarded this place has gotten.
You are a shit slupring slavaboo moron jerking off to fictional guns and lying about things you'll never get to own because you're a subhuman manchild with 0 working braincells.
have a nice day, preferably by drowning yourself in sewage.
Ok retard. Dont forget to tell everyone at r/ukraine how hard you owned me
I'll be sure to tell your mom this evening. We'll be sure to enjoy watching vids of your countrymen blown to bits like lab rats together.
>VDV guys are using VSSs instead of SR3MPs
They don't, you absolute moron shill. Russia never develops, never fields anything. It's all your stupid fantasy, it's made up. You're making shit up just to jerk off to a videogame gun that's never been meaningfully used.
Ok lol
>some nobodies robbed a scrapyard russians call a warehouse therefore it's totally a legit decision guise
you just pictured an average VSS "enjoyer"
>ukrainian uniform holding VAL
>VDV guy on the ground with his brains painted all over the street
Sure man
>"you just pictured an average VSS "enjoyer""
Based ESL retard lmao the fuck are you even trying to say
You're just to stupid to understand coherent speech, vatmoron.
Literally a moron brain, that's why you're juerking off to a shit gun like vss.
Yeah for sure big dog I'm posting photos of dead russians and saying that the VSS and VAL had significant engineering issues and that I pity the men who have been issued the guns for general fighting because I'm a russian shill you definitely habe a working brain and havent been huffing paint fumes since the day you were born.
You need more english lessons by the way, it's honestly very easy to tell you're not a native speaker.
>I-i'm not a vatmoron shill i swear! Why you no believings me i even posted some dead russians in between my obvious russian dicksucking!
Get out and never come back.
Rangebanning all non-American IP addresses to do away with retards like you would do so fucking much to improve this place lmao.
Copying things directed at you will not make you look smarter, vatmoron.
How does posting dead Russian = vatnik?
Dont try to engage man once you get these morons riled up there's no calming them down until it's out of their system.
It's honestly a shame but the odds that he's had lead pipes in his home his entire life seem to be about 300%
>VSS is of superior slavic engineering, totally betters than anything built decades before it that i'll claim as contemporary tech and newerst totally fielded variants make this the betterest things ever fellow westerners. What do you mean it's not good i just told you it's the goodest thing ever!
>No i'm not a vatnik, here's a post of dead russian, you trust me now, da?
Very inconHispanicious.
>you are not allowed to think anything the soviets made was cool or you are vatnik
fuck off lad
>I don't even need arguments, I call you a vatnik = I win
this has some strong race-card/gender-card vibes, and I don't like it
You’re arguing with retards Anon, just move on.
On the other hand, this photo was unironically where I realizes Russia was going to lose. On the first day.
>try to take hostomel
>alfa and vympel running all over kiev the day/night before marking drop zones and targets
>immediately get spotted and chased throughout the city by police
>slaughtered to a man on a bridge trying to escape kiev in cars
>vdv operation totally blown, launch anyways next morning
>immediately losing choppers
>VDV slaughtered to the last man on tarmac
And then there was Magomedev getting drone’d that night too, pucciya literally lost all of their “elite” units in about 48hrs.
>Hostomel will be used as an example of one of the absolute worst attempts to seize an airfield for decades
>You’re arguing with retards Anon, just move on
You're right lol as soon as he started dropping articles and trying to call me a vatnik I should've just quit (You)ing him
>this photo was unironically where I realizes Russia was going to lose. On the first day.
Same lol
yay, got anything more about this?
somehow I missed all the Vympel shenanigans happening.
Also I believe at least part of the VDV managed to fuck off to woods.
>Hostomel will be used as an example of one of the absolute worst attempts to seize an airfield for decades
on a tactical level they did great, it's just that the operational and strategic plans were garbage.
This. Essentially they had no plan B when plan A failed, plan C?
Well plan C turned into a 10 mile long traffic jam.
Light airborn infantry and special forces shit the bed without support.
lol what a fucking retard take.
>your recon and forward observers are spotted before operation even begins
>launch operation anyways knowing you haven’t accomplished sead
>lose multiple chalks en route
>barely control tarmac for more than 2hrs and fail to land a single plane
>send in the remainder of your glorious VEH DEH VEH to die with their comrades on tarmac
Pure fucking retard vatnik cocksuckers.
Let’s take a look at the American side where the airborne forces are competent and not a bunch of try hard (dead) gays.
>Operation Rhino
>RRD infiltrates before mission, doesnt get spotted, identifies all AA capabilities
>AC-130s and B52s btfo all AA before operation
>75th drops
>airfield + permieter secured in less than 2hrs
>land planes before dawn
And to really give ‘em the ol’ razzle dazzle? We ran the whole fucking operation at night under NODs.
And this was 20 years before Pucciya even ran this shit show of an airborne op.
Absolute fucking embarrassment.
A retarded take is what happened?
The russians captured the hostomel airport, but they couldnt support the VDV soon enough before ukrainian regulars arrived and annihilated them.
The entire plan for the russians around kiev hinged on hostomel.
>The russians captured the hostomel airport
That’s a funny way of saying they didn’t land a single support aircraft before the runway was cratered and they were butchered to the last man by a ragtag force of city cops and conscripts, but you know, keep going off or whatever.
>at least they fought and died gloriously for a few hours!
>if only OMON had arrived!
lmao, the most third place finish cope I’ve heard in a minute.
Sorry for tiggering your autism you fucking imbeciles. I suppose the germans on the eastern front never took anything either since they ultimately lost the war.
Jesus christ you people are something else.
>muh muh germans
>muh wwii
Pure, unadulterated, goal shifting tourist cope.
>Operation is blown before it even begins
>Let’s send men to their death anyways and hope for the best!
>Oh boy we should have had better support!
Weird, it’s almost like forethought and planning are central to military success. Something pucciya has yet to grasp.
>muh muh goalpost shifting
You see anon, that is whats known as a comparative example, not goal post shifting.
I know english is your second language but thats not an excuse to be wilfully ignorant.
>comparison
You haven’t made any comparisons. All you’ve done is reposted inaccurate info on hostomel.
Back to your containment board, tourist.
>There was no possibility that they could have taken that airport
>They weren't even in a position to mutiny
Do you realize just how pathetic this sounds? Your most elite units wasted on day 1 and your cope is that someone else is to blame, that they couldn’t “mutiny?”
>blah blah blah if Bush had
Yeah, but he didn’t, did he?
So here we sit watching pucciya shit the bed day after day while you make vague, sad, comparative “what if” excuses.
Its not an innaccurate statement anon, im just not framing it how youd like so youre having a bit of a fit about it.
The vdv did defeat the defenders of the airport, but were counter attacked and destroyed before support could arrive.
>The vdv did defeat the defenders of the airport, but
>but
There is no “but,” Anon. You either took the airport or you didn’t.
>we were in control of it for a few hours!
lol
>Your most elite units wasted on day 1
I'm not Russian and I don't support the Russians, I'm saying that the VDV were being sent into such an obviously suicidal situation that their only real chance of surviving was to mutiny. I'm amazed by your inability to conceive of the possibility that anyone who points out that the VDV guys on the ground weren't bad at their jobs is anything but a Russian who is unable to emotionally deal with the cream of their military being destroyed in a stupid operation that wouldn't have happened if smarter people were in charge.
>you make vague, sad, comparative “what if” excuses.
no, I pointed out why your analogy was a bad fucking analogy and gave an idea of what an actual equivalent operation would have been. You are about as fucking dumb as the Russians you hate so much.
Nobody has once accused you of being a vatnik, I know well that you’re just a deluded gay so stop with the self victimizing.
>were being sent into such an obviously suicidal situation that their only real chance of surviving was to mutiny.
If someone as moronic as you knows this and is stating it, what does that say about the pucciyan military in general?
And why try to defend it?
lol
>VDV guys on the ground weren't bad at their jobs
If their job as pucciya’s supposedly “elite” airborne troops was to die at the hands of police and conscripts, sure, they were great at their jobs.
>VDV was gud bois, they dindu nuffin
>shoigu is to blame!
>Nobody has once accused you of being a vatnik
You said your, I quoted your post directly where you accused me of being Russian. Why are you even trying to lie about this?
>what does that say about the pucciyan military in general?
That they should mutiny wholesale and overthrow their government? I don't see why you are so obsessed with the idea that I'm some Russian nationalist because I think the VDV did the best they could at Hostomel given the circumstances.
>If their job as pucciya’s supposedly “elite” airborne troops was to die at the hands of police and conscripts, sure, they were great at their jobs.
Their jobs were to land at the airfield and make it be full of Russians with guns instead of Ukrainians with guns. They were able to do this for about as long as it would take to actually start landing troops there if the Russians could actually have landed troops there at all. Unfortunately for them it was a dumb fucking idea to use the airport to land troops to occupy Kiev, especially when it's within range of a of AA systems and artillery from the city itself. There was really no reason to try and take the airport unless there wasn't any meaningful resistance after the first day or two.
>VDV was gud bois, they dindu nuffin
no, they were probably involved in some of the war crimes in Bucha, but that doesn't mean they were bad at doing air assaults.
>shoigu is to blame!
Shoigu was put in charge by Putin to basically enable corruption, so he is mostly to blame for the poor state of the Russian military alongside Putin himself. The guy before him got sacked because he tried to institute more meaningful reforms that would have rocked the corruption gravy train.
>opperation goes poorly
>Is ultimately a failure
>therefore events that transpired, uh, didnt transpire
Im sorry anon, should I bracket my posts with vatmorons getting droned so you can believe someone could possibly have a discussion on this board in good faith?
Ive literally said m exactly what youre saying, please try to control yourself.
airborn infantry and special forces shit the bed without support
>That’s a funny way of saying they didn’t land a single support aircraft before the runway was cratered and they were butchered to the last man by a ragtag force of city cops and conscripts, but you know, keep going off or whatever.
Seems like thats exactly what anon said.
Salty euros rope asap pls.
So what you're saying is that they didn't take the airport, and the entire operation was a failure?
How is it a retarded take to point out that their failures were strategic and operational in nature? Do you think any of those stupid things that you mentioned were the fault of the VDV guys on the ground? There was no possibility that they could have taken that airport, and the VDV gave their best shot at accomplishing something that wasn't possible, with realistic results. They weren't even in a position to mutiny, since they weren't told they were invading Ukraine until they were on the ground.
>look at the American side
every success you describe was the result of good operational planning and giving the airborne forces an operation they could handle. Asking airborne forces to take an airfield from the Taliban with heavy air support, at night, when you have NODs and the enemy doesn't, is something those forces were very able to do. This is like if Bush had personally demanded that the Rangers take Saddam International Airport on day 1 of OIF. If the Rangers had failed to pull that off, it wouldn't have been a sign that the Rangers sucked, it would have been a sign that Bush shouldn't have been allowed to tell the Rangers what to do.
>by NCOs
Oh you sweet summer child.
>there are photos of VDV units in Syria w Type 1 AK
pics?
Shamefully I am phonefagging rn and can't find the specific photo I'm talking about but it's a VDV guy manning a checkpoint in Syria directing a line of civilians in probably 2016 or 2017 with a type 1 AK slung across his chest.
>Shamefully I am phonefagging rn and can't find the specific photo I'm talking about but it's a VDV guy manning a checkpoint in Syria directing a line of civilians in probably 2016 or 2017 with a type 1 AK slung across his chest.
thx anyway anon, I knw there was a pic taken last year after ukraine had kicked off of a guy with a UF ak and I was wondering if you were talking about that one
>werent replaced by pic related in the 90s
LMAO
>ITT: vatmorons pretend russia can innovate or make anything modern again
VAL is a 90s gun that had one batch of them made and dumped into police warehouses for special police to ransack on occasion if there is a guy who's willing to use that shit
They’re going to be great trophies
Ok now that this thread has apparently riled up a suffient pack of ESL retards it's time to dip. Peace, gays, this board is a leddit colony now and you'll never know what you missed out on
I hope you and your family will get beaten to death soon. You shills running around shitting PrepHole for so long is a travesty.
(You)'ve never belonged here and you're just a 4chanedditor shitskin tourist shilling russian.
I haven't seen a single proof that Vintorez was any good posted, ever. It always seem to be people who have never even looked at it outside of a video game that obsess over it.
I've read russian accounts on it and it doesn't look impressive at all.
9x39 and 300blk subsonic has similar ballistics out of one of those things as .45acp so I imagine it'd be pretty good for assassinations, which is what this was intended for.
I think the VSS looks cool and I still want one despite it not being the greatest weapon ever designed.
What do these accomplish that a suppressed 74 variant can’t? I call bullshit on the magic armor piercing subsonic vatnik super round as well.
be subsonic and still punch through captured soviet soft armor. it was a gun designed to shoot guard dogs in afghanistan, all other uses with CT and police came well after the fact.
This alleged soviet soft armor is equivalent to what? Two t-shirts? A pair of jeans?
a crusty cum rag
>cum rag
my cum towel can stop 54r
Have a much heavier bullet. That’s because (and why) it’s 9mm and not 5.45mm
I don't understand this thread. Who said guns had to be current meta to be cool? If that were the case, nobody would care about Wa2000s or spas 12s or any cold war battle rifle. The whole mindset is some boring ass lucas botkin ar+glock gayry. I thought it went without saying that the VSS was a rough and unimpressive piece of engineering, I remember people used to always obsess over how gougy the machining marks were in those receiver internal pics from the kuzmin VSS photoset; back in maybe 2013-14.
Kind of. Biggest issue is the range.
This thread has made me wonder if the actual KS-23 might have an inflated reputation.
I mean, it's just a shotgun in a big ass round, what about it?
Specifically the claim of the Barrikada slug being able to "destroy the engine block of a car at up to 100 meters". Then you also have the claims of it being actually underpowered for its size and being in practice a small-caliber riot grenade launcher instead of some sort of elephant gun.
>Destroy an engine block at 100m
Perhaps if the engine block is Russian-made.
The buckshot rounds are roughly equivalent to mild 12ga loads. Magnum 12 or 10ga loads completely mog it.
It annoys me how much gays fellate the Russian meme shotgun while nobody talks about local actual heavy hitters.
3.5" 12 gauge is no joke either. I think Benelli once even made a Super Black Eagle tactical with a shorter barrel and extended magazine tube.
The more I look at this shit the more I think a .45 acp pcc is peak subsonic, which would be the first time I ever considered a pcc.
>fuck up so many 23mm barrels you have to find something to do with them
>make a rifled meme shotgun
Russia: We need a riot grenade launcher but 40mm VOGs are a piece of shit, let's try 23mm, that'll give us quick follow ups and still let us use larger shells as a rifle grenades/muzzle cup grenades. We even have barrels for it!
America:
>HOLY SHIT
>OH MAMA
>HOLY SHIT
>4 GAUGE SHOTGUN
>HOLY SHIT BASED RUSSIA SHOT 4 GAUGE SHOTGUN AT PEOPLE
>WISH I HAD A 4 GAUGE SHOTGUN TO SHOOT AT THE RANGE (he can but too stupid to realize)
>HELLUVA BOOMSTICK
>NOT LIKE OUR WEAKSAUCE 12 GAUGE SHOTGUNS
>WHAT'S THAT? 37MM RIOT GUNS? NEVER HEARD OF THAT
>NOW THIS BOOMSTICK
The kicker is that 23mm is something like 6.2 gauge. I'm not sure where the 4 gauge meme got started.
Overrated trash
Given how often 7.62x39mm gets compared to .300 Blackout, it surprises me that the Russians never tried to use it for their sneeky breeki rifles instead of developing a brand new unicorn round.
it's challenging to make 7.62x39 reliably subsonic
I wish somebody made an armor piercing subsonic 9x45 round based on 5.56x45. .300 blackout just seems like it's half way between one and the other.
It's not so much this as it was the other engineering constraints around the round. 7.62x39 subs are (or were I havent tried to buy any since russian ammp got b&) pretty easily available and works great in modern guns and modern suppressors. The reality though is that AKs kinda suppress like shit. Piston pop alone is above ear safe levels and most of the rifles are overgassed as fuck. Now combine that w 1980s soviet tech and the specific design constraints of the gun (essentially an urban extreme CQ gun that's ALSO super quiet and ALSO punched through (at the time) likely body armor threats, and the design decisions make sense, according to their goals, tech knowledge, and engineering constraints at the time.
Also worth pointing out that they absolutely did utilize cans with 7.62x39 guns, the suppressor in
is 1960s tech (and as a result kinda shitty) but they wanted something quieter that could also pen the armor they were worried about, the logic behind slowing the bullet down and making it bigger to compensate does make sense.
In a modern context, yeah lol just run subsonic 7.62x39 in a suppressed ak104-sized package. You'd get probably similar suppression performance, the AP properties of 9x39 are kinda questionable in current year esp for the drawbacks etc.
>Now combine that w 1980s soviet tech and the specific design constraints of the gun (essentially an urban extreme CQ gun that's ALSO super quiet and ALSO punched through (at the time) likely body armor threats[)]
It's nice to see this put so well.
>the AP properties of 9x39 are kinda questionable in current year esp for the drawbacks
what drawbacks are there to 9x39 compared to 7.62 subsonic aside from cost? I'd figure the little bit of extra armor piercing capability would be nice, especially if you're doing sneaky shit in the rear lines where your opposition might not be wearing the best body armor.
7.62x39 has too much case capacity, they cant make bullets heavy enough to get subsonic. well, at least while still being powerful enough to cycle a gas gun
i experimented with brown bear subsonic and it was still super out of a 16" barrel
Yeah I guess I never shot it with a decibel meter my dumb ass just put it through my gun+can and went "yeah that's definitely quieter but still loud as fuck" lol but the rounds work well. I'll defer to your experience there.
>what drawbacks are there to 9x39 compared to 7.62 subsonic aside from cost?
Again no firsthand experience with the former obviously just going off footage and testimonials but it drops like a motherfucker, which doesnt matter in within it's intended use parameters but even in the city fighting we're seeing in ukraine apparently it's significant enough to create issues. This isn't something I experienced w 7.62 subs but if the anon above is correct and they werent actually subsonic it definitely subverts what I'm talking about.
Careful anon if you bring up the SR3M an ESL retard might start screaming about how you're secretly a russian
>it drops like a motherfucker
that's mostly a matter of velocity, and I think the more massive projectile would be less effected by air resistance when moving at the same velocity.
>it surprises me that the Russians never tried to use it for their sneeky breeki rifles
well do I have good news for you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBS-1_silencer
they actually did, but suppressed aks are a hell of a drug, so they tried making a better option
which, for the role, vss/val is undoubtedly is
is it though? I think you are confusing it for 5,45 which in fact has these issues
as far as I understand this was the reason to keep 7,62 akms in inventory for military even up to today, You can find plenty of photos with russian soldiers equipped with akm pattern rifles with pbs1 all the way through 2010s
Never really thought about it but knowing how Russia tried to one-up the US on alot of equipment during the Cold War imma say its their answer to Mk22 Hushpuppy, that slide lock single shot pistol from 'Nam.
Also hated how the Stalker games were built around VSS. Gun was OP as fuck. Lvl 4 penetration? Ya ok..
actual answer are mak pb developed around the same time and later stechkin apb
Only for hitman, against some non-armored target
pretending to be retarded to get (you)'s?
>more photoshoots
I'm sure every T-14 and Su-57 will have an SR3M issued when they are deployed.
karden was mid-tier police sf, if he posted that shit 10+ years ago that means even his shit underfunded unit got some of them. comparing those shitty sekrit meme guns to jet fighters is just retarded
Lol, i'm sure some retards will believe this bull.