Do you think you could fit an EFP capable of taking out an armored vehicle (from the top) into an 81mm mortar? Maybe with rocket assistance?
With drones, it seems like it could be a killer option. Small drone spots, slaps on a laser late in the trajectory to guide in the EFP. The EFP allows for rapid change in trajectory to hit moving vehicles, sort of the way the fancy new Excalibur's work (or older BONUS shells).
Because this way you don't need line of sight and can reach out like 6.5 kilometers, longer with a loitering munitions.
I would imagine 60mm would be too small, but they also now have fully autonomous ones which sound like they would be great on an IFV. Just send stuff in via drones, or even using networked rifle scopes
Mortar thing aside, small quad with laser indicators would make them too dangerous to ignore, that is, the drone interceptors or similar.
designators*
that means*
>slaps on a laser
Why?
You need to hit the tank in the roof and it might be moving.
But that's what the new 155mm shells do, they get fired into the area, roughly above the target (drone in huge here) and then fire the EFP down once overhead. This way small variances in ballistics and movement are accounted for.
Instead of trying to hit a tank miles away with a mortar, you are just trying to get a mortar roughly above a tank so it can fire the EFP down at a proper angle.
BONUS, a much older system, accomplishes this by deploying a parachute so the munitions have time to search for targets, ID them, and fire. Now, a drone (also fired in with artillery if needed) can do that from greater distances, making it hard to intercept.
It sort of takes advantage of the fact that fast moving munitions and event faster moving EFPs are hard to intercept, while spotter drones fired in can spot targets from a lot farther away, and thus are harder to intercept than some parachute deploying munition.
>You need to hit the tank in the roof and it might be moving
Merlin could do that, yes
The tech went on to be used in Brimstone
See
Merlin was a pretty big deal in the 90s I recall
Didn't go through in the end, cause the Wall went down instead, and why not just pack a Javelin instead of faffing around with mortar tubes
>why not just pack a Javelin instead of faffing around with mortar tubes
Almost double the range, possibly more depending on how rocket assist could work, ability to rapidly reload and fire more munitions, possibly cheaper, and the ability to get the lock via a drone that you also lobbed overhead using the mortar system.
This allows various other recon elements to tell you "the enemy is roughly here," to then fire a spotter in, get locks, and then potentially eliminate multiple vehicles.
Plus, the mortar can also be used to hit infantry and softer targets by simply loading a different munition.
With loitering munitions, the range absolutely crushes the Javelin, going several times further, although payload is a problem. But light vehicles can move 120mm mortars and those could probably deliver long range, appropriate payload munitions.
Loitering munitions are easier to intercept, but the ability to make your artillery reach out many more miles? That will be a game changer once they are mature.
You pretty easily could, the SLAM was an EFP that could go through 40mm at 8 meters range. It was slightly smaller than 81mm iirc and most tanks don't have much roof armor. The hard part would be hitting anything
A mortar would use a HEAT round. Look up Strix.
Handy shaped charge RHA pen guide:
copper EFP pens half its diameter in RHA
tantalum pens full diameter
standard/older copper HEAT pens 5-7x diameter
cutting edge HEAT with all the gimmicks pens 10, 12, or 14x diameter
>cutting edge HEAT with all the gimmicks pens 10, 12, or 14x diameter
That would need CL-20 besides the current multi layer lining and multi tandem. The best HEATs in service have 8-9 for triple tandem with multi layer lining (iirc).
>Do you think you could fit an EFP capable of taking out an armored vehicle (from the top) into an 81mm mortar?
yes dummy
the 40mm can penetrate 50mms of steel, that alone is enough for most tanks, an 81mm HEAT would be very capable
>Weapon ideas
Disposable Mini quadcopter in a 40mm launcher, when deployed gives gives an instant 3600 video of the area and continues along the trajectory it was fired in. No loiter time, no retrieval, no sitting around setting it up, just a quick recon device.
Why not just bring back flak mortaring/ artillery to deal with drones?
Unguided flak is worthless against drones so if you're going to invest in the sensors to be aware of the sky there's no reason not to buy a guided weapon.
Just toss in some EM chaff into them flak cloud mixtures
They already are, Russia has been sticking 57mm turrets on a bunch of stuff with air target tracking and proximity fuzed airburst shells to kill drones.
This but go full retard, if you can create an AI based algorithm to compile all of the frames into a 3D space, then shove it in some AR glasses and squads would be able to plan in physical space in front of them.
That's dumb. Put it on a drone.
Hit and run motor tactics would be hell to deal with. They were annoying in Iraq
A drone that has to hold and fire the munitions has to be way larger. This also means it will be significantly more expensive and have a significantly shorter flight time (all else equal vs the lighter drone).
A bigger drone can't be fired from a tube to help it get over a target quickly and avoid interception long enough to actually spot.
And a drone carries significantly less weaponry than a ground based tube can.
Of course, there will be tube launched loitering munitions, we already have them. But these add range at the cost of price and payload. A smart shell that can be internetworked to work off other drones has many benefits.
Plus, as interception gets better, slow moving suicide drones will be the first shit to become ineffective. But spotting can be done with way smaller target, from much further away, and then fast moving, smaller shells are much harder to intercept.
Has it been proven that a tandem-top-attack missile can destroy a tank equipped with NERA and APS?
Or basically can a javelin destroy a Merkava without any trouble?
Merkava's APS (Trophy) can't defend against attacks coming from the top. Yeah, seriously. The Israelis israeliteed themselves.
well you already have stuff like Bofors STRIX but thats 120mm and 81 might be a bit limiting since you need radius
Do any of these currently synch directly to spotter drones? It always seemed to me like we're still at the point of having to have someone fly the drone, get the target location, then pass this on to the arty team, then they have to aim, then the munition can correct a bit, but if the data wasn't passed on right, it'll be a miss.
Seems like you should be able to eventually make the spotters autonomous, and just have them flash a report back when the AI recognizes a target. Then all a commander needs to do is approve a fire mission, and the autonomous battery gets sent the data feed directly from the drone, aims itself perfectly, and fires. It doesn't seem like it should require massively more tech then we already have to make so that a human is just in the loop to approve missions. Hell, AI could even help prioritize active fire mission options.
Then, if interception ever gets significantly better, this will also help with firing volleys designed to overwhelm that umbrella.
Weapon idea: lighter than air drones that stay up persistently above armored vehicles to provide constant 360 degree video, which is the fed into an AI program that looks for threats, targets, and ATGM launches for interception systems, etc.
You could possibly put other sensors in them too. The idea is to always have eyes ahead, allowing things like autonomous mortars on vehicles to engage targets extremely rapidly and AP to get early warnings.
They could also be used to set up an open space coms network and broadcast from not directly over the vehicles. Yes, they would be vulnerable, but you still get information when someone has to fire at them and creating decoys would be cheap too.
In general, I think we are moving to a place where ground clashes will increasingly occur beyond visual range, and this helps with that. It will be about whose interception umbrella fails first, and then super rapid, super accurate indirect fire will crush whoever has their AD systems go first. Why use infantry and line of sight optics to find targets in 2035+, you have smaller, faster options. Drones can be delivered by MLRS and arty, making them the faster way to get targeting data. Then, batteries that load and aim themselves, already a thing, make the delay between spotting and missions very short.