Do these people think
>muh symbolic tanks
will magically unlock the German tank tech tree?
Scholz said Germany won't provide tanks on its own and has consistently followed American policy, but in the last few days I've repeatedly heard delusional weirdos talking about the big brained strategy of
>just send 10 challengers/abrams/leclercs and then Germany will be forced to greenlight 300 Leopards
Who the frick came up with the
>muh symbolism
Approach?
Just send 100 Abrams and be done with it, Jesus
>could
>could
>if
OP here, the way I know Scholz he will absolutely expect real numbers of tanks to be sent by allies instead of falling for the
>5% non leopards will unlock 95% of the tanks sent to be leopards
logic
But we know Britain and France can't send real numbers so it's basically up to America. People have built up really moronic expectations.
>can't send real numbers so it's basically up to America
We can't either really. We haven't produced tank parts since Bug Lung shut down all manufacturers. Getting them restarted would take the better part of 2 years if we started today.
There's no point in producing new abrams when there are thousands left to upgrade.
Scholz sucks.
Honestly, the whole Bundestag sucks. They STILL can’t see the massive threat of Russia. They’re hoping to chip in a symbolic helmet here and there so that when Ukraine comes out the other side Germany can say “we helped :D!”
>the massive threat of Russia.
Russia is proven to be a paper tiger.
>They’re hoping to chip in a symbolic helmet here and there so that when Ukraine comes out the other side Germany can say “we helped :D!”
Only America sent more aid overall and more military materiel than Germany.
What the frick are you talking about? Apologize right the frick now you dumb c**t.
>Honestly, the whole Bundestag sucks. They STILL can’t see the massive threat of Russia. They’re hoping to chip in a symbolic helmet here and there so that when Ukraine comes out the other side Germany can say “we helped :D!”
See
Who told you these lies, anon?
I'm genuinely interested in where low-info posters with strong opinions like you come from. Twitter? Reddit?
Not even kidding, do tell me.
I feel like a bit of a moron here, but I keep hearing about X won't allow Y to send Y.item - on what grounds can X tell Y not to do something? Is it some kind of NATO agreement that everyone has to agree to arms shipments?
You can't send German tanks if you're not Germany without German approval because it's breech of the trade deal. None stops Germans sending anything(besides Gepard ammo because of mountain israelites)
Understood, thank you
I swear the SKs planted Sholz to make their MiC look better by comparison
Why would anyone care about the trade deal. Just threaten to buy all your future tanks form the Americans if Scholz retaliates for sending Leopards.
>without German approval because it's breech of the trade deal
I buy tank. It belongs to me now. Why do i need YOUR approval to do with the tank whatever I want to?
If you dont like it, you will lose a customer.
Not how it works with tanks. Iraq bought Russian tanks because they had to ask the Americans permission to move their tanks around and had to keep telling them where they were. Yeah, you read that right. You are also aware that right now there is someone in the Pentagon who's job it is to keep tabs on Iraqi abrams tanks.
This is only reasonable for your own defense or if interests overlap. If you plan on helping someone out or fueling your own war campaign, the last thin g you want is someone telling you what to do with their tanks
In the western world arms exports always have a clause that includes something along the lines of
>you may not resell or donate these weapons without permission from the original seller
To keep technology out of the wrong hands and bad press away from the originating country.
So countries using the Leopard (or Abrams, Leclerc, Challenger) require permission from Germany (America, France, Britain) to give them to Ukraine.
That's the case for every country.
What's "stopping" Germany is the same thing that moved the line of German deliveries from the very beginning and that's whether other people send the same stuff (Gepard was an exception since nobody really has something similar anyway).
That's why the
>muh symbolic 10 tanks to FORCE German to send stuff
Is so moronic.
Sending a meaningless number of tanks won't "allow" Scholz to send tanks according to the rules he set based on his gay SPD priorities because the number is meaningless.
The solution is to send a number that isn't meaningless but nobody wants to do that, they want others to send their expensive tanks instead.
So what number isn't meaningless, a battalion?
The solution is for Ukraine and Poland to open a corridor for Russia to invade Germany and for everyone to watch as Germany's joke of an army fails in a week and the many Germans who love Russia finally get to live under Putin
>the many Germans who love Russia finally get to live under Putin
They are not Germans they are the 3 million Russian speakers that Russia left behind in east Germany. Literally unwanted mistresses and bastards and morons that did not get a place in the lorry back to Moscow in 1991 because no one cared.
Do you ever speak or think like a normal person or are you constantly blinded by butthurt?
Nobody is sending real numbers of western MBTs to Ukraine the whole
>symbolic 10 tanks teehee
is a transparent political ploy (openly so, even) because people don't understand that it's not about 1 western tank touching Ukranian soil and suddenly 500 Leopards follow.
How many western tanks has your country offered to send?
I hope it's a genuine wish to bleed out the Russian army, the escalation stuff is just gay.
>we won't send tanks until someone else does
>and you can't send the tanks we sold to you either
>ten tanks dont count! (Even though 10 challys is like 5% of the UK's fleet
>America has to send tanks
Germany is such a homosexual state politically, its shown so little leadership yet acts like it runs the EU. Love the country itself though
Most Germans are based, and are right. It's the poolacks that are problem
No nation has ever requested an export of their Leopard 2 tanks. Poland still hasn’t
Didnt Spain try in the summer?
The Leopards Spain wanted to send were so poorly maintained that they weren't worth sending. IIRC they were out in the open for decades with zero maintenance done on them.
>>we won't send tanks until someone else does
And nobody else does. So why are you mad at Germany?
>muh symbolic 10 challengers
Only count if you only want Germany to approve an equally symbolic number of Leopards.
>>and you can't send the tanks we sold to you either
According to whom? Nobody asked.
How come every anti-German post is based on moronic fantasies lately?
>"we won't send tanks until someone else does"
>someone else sends tanks
>NO NOT LIKE THAT
Anon, stop thinking like this is a video game when Scholz says others need to send tanks as well he doesn't mean
>send 1 tank and I will send all of mine
And you know that.
You're just so used to being a disingenuous c**t that you think reality works on rule-lawyering as if you're being an butthole at a DnD table or a israeli lawyer.
>but he said he doesn't want to send tanks alone
>and TECHNICALLY Britain will send (an insignificant number) of tanks
>so he HAS TO send them!!!!!!!
How old are you, 12? That's the israeli way of thinking that made judaism 90% about tricking their own god with moronic loopholes.
>anti-German
I think it's the current russian agenda: turn everyone on Germany and create turmoil inside NATO. I am guessing.
50% that, 50% butthurt poles and brits. The poles are new.
>its shown so little leadership yet acts like it runs the EU.
Germany doesn't want to run the EU, others want it to but without listening to it when they DON'T want to.
Which explains why Germany doesn't want to fricking lead it, you Black folk you just whine for "leadership" (which means money for what you want) or cry about a dictatorship whenever Germany wants you to do something you don't want.
So Germany rightfully has been telling you leeches to go frick yourselves and let the frogs take care of it.
Germany has stupid trade deals, the abuse the fact that the tank without maintenence is useless. You can't do anything with a Leopard without Rheinmetall's consent, otherwise is a breach of warranty or some shit. Poles couldn't even do a proper in-house maintenance without Rheinmetall sperging out. That's why they are so eager to mothball/gift those Leo's to Ukraine.
>in b4 why would you ever by a German tank then
Because nobody else is selling
All of that is untrue and based on fake news/memes/fuddlore.
Jesus Christ, anon.
Also it's KMW, Rheinmetall just supplies the guns.
>Because nobody else is selling
Well, Koreans are eager to provide the technology transfer and the whole maintenance service, unlike the Germans who usually just sell you the tank and call it a day.
>Well, Koreans are eager to provide the technology transfer and the whole maintenance service
To get into the European market. It's not a Korean racial trait in your RPG/RTS, it's them giving countries an unusually good deal to get a foot in the door and won't be the case anymore once they're in.
> unlike the Germans who usually just sell you the tank and call it a day.
Germans and everybody else. You think the US/UK/France is in the habit of just sharing technology with second world nations?
Poles are getting Abrams tanks but guess what they won't be getting (aside from the newest versions).
>Germany has stupid trade deals,
Pretty standard.
>You can't do anything with a Leopard without Rheinmetall's consent, otherwise is a breach of warranty or some shit.
Wrong company and stuff like the Canadian add-on armor is just fine, what you can't do is build a new version with great changes without checking in first, which is also normal and reasonable considering how much you could frick up in the process.
>Poles couldn't even do a proper in-house maintenance without Rheinmetall sperging out.
Wrong and wrong company. Fricking hell anon
>That's why they are so eager to mothball/gift those Leo's to Ukraine.
They aren't eager at all or they would've offered a real number.
yeah krauts are a walking disgrace. they cant just help themselves but keep aligning themselves with vatnik imperialism every fricking century. Previous round it was their land grab imperialism, this time it is some stockholm syndrome level simping for le epic economy block against those burger chuddites.
I laughed my ass off when the news of poles and worst koreas dealings came through. Poland would rather deal with a state on the other side of the planet in building up a viable arnament industry then risk exposing themselves to nazi autism right next door.
>meanwhile in reality
The 30 nations of NATO and the 40 nations supporting Ukraine as well as the EU 27 and G7 are actually working wonderfully together as they generally do in trade, crime and many areas. They made a very definite and smart plan which we have seen two stages of
1)Ukraine gets as quickly as possible ALL the old soviet stuff and ammunition we can get (the twofold purpose being it also prevents the Russians getting it). People who donate old soviet or modernised soviet get newer western shit in return and continue until the entire Russian invasion force is defeated as the Ukrainians are in defense and have the advantage
2)As the Ukranian military expands, entire regiments of Ukranians trained in places like the UK to NATO standards begin to be issued NATO equipment such as light tanks, Bradleys, AMXs etc. On a separate track Ukraines air defense is continually broadened and deepened. Continue this until Russia has run out of combat pilots, experienced tank crews and artillery men, tanks, modern apcs and infantry fighting vehicles, fuel tankers, 4x4s, professional soldiers, bridge laying and fording equipment, engineering vehicles (a lot of this is done).
3)Kill the Russian economy as soon as European winter is over and a complete trade embargo can close. Kill the first wave of mobilised and gauge the effect on the Russian public. Repeat if necessary. Reduce Russian strategic assets like cruise missile capable long range bombers, naval assets, nuclear arsenals etc etc (underway)
4)When the Russians no longer have any APCs or artillery (tanks and combat pilots are already gone as are engineering and modern artillery as well as vast losses KIA/WIA/Deserted/POW) Hit them with the new model army. Hit them hard forcing a complete collapse in the field and mass surrender on the same scale as the collapse of the German army in ww1 in the west. Ideally have destroyed all railheads so they cannot escape.
>The 30 nations of NATO and the 40 nations supporting Ukraine as well as the EU 27 and G7 are actually working wonderfully together as they generally do in trade, crime and many areas. They made a very definite and smart plan which we have seen two stages of
>1)Ukraine gets as quickly as possible ALL the old soviet stuff and ammunition we can get (the twofold purpose being it also prevents the Russians getting it). People who donate old soviet or modernised soviet get newer western shit in return and continue until the entire Russian invasion force is defeated as the Ukrainians are in defense and have the advantage
>2)As the Ukranian military expands, entire regiments of Ukranians trained in places like the UK to NATO standards begin to be issued NATO equipment such as light tanks, Bradleys, AMXs etc. On a separate track Ukraines air defense is continually broadened and deepened. Continue this until Russia has run out of combat pilots, experienced tank crews and artillery men, tanks, modern apcs and infantry fighting vehicles, fuel tankers, 4x4s, professional soldiers, bridge laying and fording equipment, engineering vehicles (a lot of this is done).
>3)Kill the Russian economy as soon as European winter is over and a complete trade embargo can close. Kill the first wave of mobilised and gauge the effect on the Russian public. Repeat if necessary. Reduce Russian strategic assets like cruise missile capable long range bombers, naval assets, nuclear arsenals etc etc (underway)
>4)When the Russians no longer have any APCs or artillery (tanks and combat pilots are already gone as are engineering and modern artillery as well as vast losses KIA/WIA/Deserted/POW) Hit them with the new model army. Hit them hard forcing a complete collapse in the field and mass surrender on the same scale as the collapse of the German army in ww1 in the west. Ideally have destroyed all railheads so they cannot escape.
How the FRICK are there only 1000 prisoners of war?
moderate solution 🙂
Kek
I understand Scholz not wanting to be responsible for 95% of tank deliveries to Ukraine but what's holding Biden back?
>what's holding Biden back?
Probably the usual "muh escalation" bullshit. Kind of hoped they would have grown out of it by now. Maybe once winter is over and we have an official count of civies who've frozen to death, that can then be used to apply some pressure.
>but what's holding Biden back?
Biden has been wrong on basically every foreign policy issue over his entire career.
>How the FRICK are there only 1000 prisoners of war?
There are vastly more. The Ukrainians do not publish the numbers of Russian POWs they have. Even more Russians have deserted
Hololos don't take prisoner
Based if true (but it isn't)
Challengers were sent as a moronic gesture to make up for the lack of IFVs sent when everybody else did it a couple days ago.
Plus
>muh taboo is now broken, Germany will now authorize hundreds of Leopards to be sent
Might have played a part in it due to the currylord being moronic and not realizing that it's not about gestures but actual volume of materiel.
>I assume that Challenger and Leopards are sent because there are Ukrainian soldiers and Maintainers that received a proper training in operating and repairing them on top of Ukraine preparing a proper Logistical lines to keep those tanks functional.
None of that is the case by the way.
> Sending 10 Abrams while there's no crews or proper mechanics to use these would be pointless if Ukies don't have any of that.
They have an equal amount of training and logistics for any of the western tanks right now. So none at all.
>Unless that's exactly what Germas wants.
Don't be moronic on purpose.
You seen the hammer vid?
That's what happens when you get sent back to Russia in a prisoner exchange.
Probably a lot easier to say "yeah they died, here's their tags, body's uh, probably gone by now" and send them off to some western Euro country as a "refugee".
The biggest midwit take is that there’s any kind of plan at all. This is some qanon tier moronation. You troons are all completely unhinged lunatics that are completely out of touch with reality. The American empire was collapsing from internal forces before this war due to the sheer incompetence of its leadership. That trump was an improvement is truly the peak of comedy, and you expect us to believe these incompetent fools that haven’t won a war in twenty years, haven’t been able to address any of their internal crisis, is somehow in control?
>The biggest midwit take is that there’s any kind of plan at all.
>Did you actually believe France, America and Germany all spontaneously decided to send IFVs on the same day?
>false equivalence
Colour me surprised anon, you’re just as dumb as I would’ve expected. And for my next trick I plan to do something that I will immediately back out of or alter because my “plan” is just the whims of the moment
>there is no kind of plan at all
>except for this coordinated effort planned out over weeks/months, that one doesn't count though
okay bro
>Upon adjourning this committee, I hear you motion to have this brought up at the next roundtable to be addressed immediately by the oversight board and to have an action plan put in place to ensure that our policies are deployed according to the process laid out at the last hearing.
I’m sure you’ll figure it out eventually anon
Anon, even if we take your homosexual exaggeration as the literal truth that would still mean there's a plan.
Which means you are categorically wrong.
Kek, guess I shouldn’t be surprised that tourists are all gays. I’m gonna go back to my non-pol /k/ threads now because you guys are too dumb to converse with.
Post guns on engine block before you do.
You've said literally nothing, it's impressive how little value you've managed to deliver with the amount of words you've used. You've just arrogantly asserted some waffle you won't even defend
>I posted something moronic and can't defend it so now I'm going to run away like the pussy I am
Goodbye, moron
You have to go back
The false equivalence of what?
You’ll figure it out anon, I believe in you.
>The biggest midwit take is that there’s any kind of plan at all.
based
If NATO has no plan at all, then doesn't that make this even more humiliating for Russia? They're just absentmindedly throwing table scraps at Ukraine without any clear plan of action, and it's still enough to curbstomp the vatnik meat waves
To be fair, it's not like Russia has any plans beyond the next 3 days either.
What people don't understand is that it really was a 3 day operation.
There have been a lot of 3 day operations ever since.
You're referring to western countries as being bad at war and all being in crisis? Que?
The US finally met its match in an even more incompetent enemy: Russia. Thank you Putin for extending the hegemony of the American Empire.
I hate Russians so much it's unreal. Greetings from Romania.
>The biggest midwit take is that there’s any kind of plan at all.
Pretty much, it's about degrading Russian ability and hopefully keep the Ukrainians strung along long enough to do the job.
It's a corrupt shithole with a rich history and money trail connected to all kinds of fricking bullshit we've seen the last 8 years. But homosexual-wienermongler-shills on /k/ and NAFO trannies desperately don't want to discuss the exact origin how this bullshit came to pass in the first place.
I want to believe
War is a videogame though, where the top players are the ones who are able to stagger the enemy preventing them from doing anything during their turn (EW, decapitation strikes on C2) whilst ganking on them in that state until they're out of HP (See Desert Storm). Only n00bs allow the opponent carry out their actions during their turn without any kind of opposition like chess game (the current war in Ukraine)
it's akin to starting a poker game: everyone is sitting at the table, the pot is empty, no one has put anything in yet. what they're all waiting for is for someone to say okay, i'm going to throw a buck to get the thing rolling. that'll give the excuse for someone else to put in the real money and deal the cards.
That's exactly not how it works, throw in a Franklin if you want to get the game rolling.
Pretty much, 56 would seal the deal. I'd give it a chance around 30 but I wouldn't count on it.
No one on Ukraine's side wants to see this shit carry on into next winter. Irrelevant of what Germany's tankie leadership thinks there will be a frickton of Western MBTs in Ukraine within the next 10 months.
How about people start actually announcing that so Scholz can do his usual social democrat cuck shuffle and do the same?
10 tanks aren't going to cut it.
Sadly we'll probably have to wait until a while after the Bradleys have been fielded. I get the feeling the burgers are hoping they'll be enough and wont send any Abrams until it's definite more is required. Tis a real pain in the arse.
Given that western MBTs have a much greater logistical and training overhead and that by the time they are deployed there will be nothing left to kill that requires them why bother. The APCs, the Bradleys, strikers, AMXs etc can be used to move troops and in reconnaissance for troop advances, the Ukrainians already have huge numbers of soviet design tanks. I'm not sure western MBTs add a lot of value. Russia's capacity to field heavy armour is basically already gone (or 94% there). Russias experienced or skilled tank crews are dead
I don't know enough about military strategy, nor the situation over there, to comment on what's best for Ukraine, but I do know that they're requesting MBTs above anything else. Whether real of not there's definitely a perceived need for them.
>I do know that they're requesting MBTs above anything else.
They are not though, they wanted artillery advantage and they got it. They want offensive capability and they are getting it.
Zelensky has said they need tanks first and foremost.
Zelensky has about as much idea about warfare as you do and isn't a fan of listening to his soldiers or even generals or he would've spent he time before the war preparing for it instead of denying it'll happen and telling the azov boys to stand down and disarm.
Zelensky got elected on a platform of easing tensions with Russia in the hope of improving relations with them; it's pretty safe to assume that he (along with the rest of Ukraine) has given up on that idea by now.
What makes you so sure he's the one making this decision, or that he has such a direct input over military equipment?
>What makes you so sure he's the one making this decision, or that he has such a direct input over military equipment?
Anon was talking about Zelensky's comments.
I don't think anybody here doubts that, anon.
He seems very good at listening to his soldiers and his generals. You're describing the other guy, the one that is scared to be in a church with other people and has meetings with his underlings at a distance of 10 meters.
You are unironically moronic
The post is factually accurate.
Make up new material, vatBlack person.
Why are you defending poolacks. They are always against Germany. If not for them Germany would still prosper while training with Russia. The only thing to do to prevent poolacks killing Germans in pooland just like in 1920s and 1930s is to exterminate each and every poolack on this planet
Objectively true. Pre-war Zelensky was an absolute moron.
well, war changes a man
nta but tanks seem to be among the top on zaluzhny's wishlist too
>Zaluzhny noted that he "does not need hundreds of thousands (of people)." We need tanks, we need armored personnel carriers, mechanized infantry fighting vehicles. And we need ammunition."
>The Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine noted that Russian troops have adapted to the presence of HIMARS systems in Ukraine. "They have gone to a distance unattainable for HIMARS. And we don't have anything long-range," he said.
>"I know I can defeat this enemy. But I need resources. I need 300 tanks, 600-700 infantry fighting vehicles, 500 howitzers. Then, I think, it is quite realistic to reach the frontiers on February 23. But I can't do it with two brigades. I get what I get, but less than I need," Zaluzhny also said.
>nta but tanks seem to be among the top on zaluzhny's wishlist too
Tanks or western tanks?
Because I doubt he's a fan of the literal months of training required to use them effectively.
yes anon, just keep burning out shitty T series instead, I'm sure the Ukrainians prefer that
Better to have shitty russian tanks you can use right now than western tanks that require a few months for you to use them.
So literally, yes.
>what is a short-term time horizon
>what is a long-term time horizon
homosexuals like you are the reason why the US only started training Ukies on Bradlys in the past month despite this war having gone on for a year (and which will most likely go on for multiple more). You joggers are incapable of thinking abstractly. Yeah, Ukies cant run western tanks out of the box right now but we can fricking train them so they can, and we can and should start sooner rather than later.
Ukraine already has the parts, ammunition, and training to operate/maintain soviet tanks, whereas new western designs will require retraining crew/mechanics and keeping additional stocks of materiel specially for them; even if they're objectively better, fielding them will consequently put more strain on logistics, especially when they don't have large numbers of them to work with.
Eventually they will run out of spares or even hulls. Because all machines break when you use them.
The amount of spares available for T-model tanks is limited and most production is on Russia. So operating them is not feasible long term.
Hence Ukraine needs western MBTs anyway.
>but I do know that they're requesting MBTs above anything else.
Why the frick wouldn't they?
I sure as hell would, no matter whether they need them or not. Worst case scenario they get a free tank fleet after the war.
Though actual generals IN the Ukranian military seem to care quite a lot more about ammo, AFVs and artillery than tanks. Tanks just kinda became the big topic on the political stage because, you know...
tanks are cool and big.
>the Ukrainians already have huge numbers of soviet design tanks. I'm not sure western MBTs add a lot of value.
It adds tremendous value. Not only are western tanks just better in general, by giving them more tanks it’s allows Ukraine to outfit another army core and have additional supply to perform offensive actions. Even if Ukraine still has +1000 Soviet era tanks that most likely isn’t enough to sustain offensive operations or outfit another army core due to attrition and repairs needed to maintain the status quo.
It seems dumb to send Bradleys without the Abrams considering they were designed to work in tandem with western MBTs.
>Abrams
thirsty tonk that
It is sad this has to grind on but that is Russias fault for being there. I think you can just watch the millstones mount up and when Russia has 80%+ of its infantry armoured vehicles gone and has lost most of its equipment and taken a million casualties all hell will be let loose on them. Part of this is strategic threats to the UK and USA being erased, like heavy bombers and war ships. Russia is being completely outclassed and outfought. Apparently they have captured (but probably not) some salt mine and only lost 94% of Russia's modern tanks doing it. Why interrupt them too much when they are making such wonderful mistakes?
>could be
>could argue
>if that happens
Why is Visegrad 24 always to stir up drama where there is none?
Visegrad24 is constantly lying, making shit up and intentionally mistranslating German articles for their moronic followers to blindly consume.
But they very well might be right here, Scholz has priorities and one of them is to spread out the blame, just sending 10 tanks isn't going to do anything for him.
What they're doing wrong here is pretending that gaming the system by sending 10 and then expecting Scholz to authorize hundreds of others is somehow reasonable.
>just send 10 challengers/abrams/leclercs and then Germany will be forced to greenlight 300 Leopards
Which is moronic anyway. Nobody pledges even close to that number of tanks. The Poles were talking about 12, the highest number I've heard talked about by the Finnish was 30 2A4s.
Germany is responsible for all of them in the end so you have to see it as a collection.
12 here, 30 there comes up to quite a lot in the end and 10 challengers don't really compare.
Well, the 10 challengers are politically symbolic. Now that the tank taboo has been broken the political pressure on Germany is going to build daily.
Also, the Greeks have ~500 upgraded M60TTS's which for some reason no one is paying attention to.
>Well, the 10 challengers are politically symbolic.
The problem is that they're nothing else and Scholz' policy isn't just based on political pressure but actual materiel being sent or not.
People always pretend Scholz has to get bullied every step of the way to send anything but if you look at the actual deliveries every single one (except the Gepards), was based on what the US sent which he then quickly followed up on (or sent at the same time, as with the Marders).
The only reason he didn't do it with the Gepards is because nobody has any equivalent in the west.
>People always pretend Scholz has to get bullied every step of the way to send anything but if you look at the actual deliveries every single one (except the Gepards), was based on what the US sent which he then quickly followed up on
Anon, that is political pressure - or - its America having to jump first to get Germany to jump first. Either way.
>Anon, that is political pressure - or - its America having to jump first to get Germany to jump first. Either way.
Anon, these decisions aren't made a minute after America sent anything, they talk about what they send before they actually send anything major. They just pretend they don't to not add fuel to Russia's
>muh NATO proxywar
narrative.
Did you actually believe France, America and Germany all spontaneously decided to send IFVs on the same day?
>Did you actually believe France, America and Germany all spontaneously decided to send IFVs on the same day?
No. I do believe that the Germans however lack the political will to be first, hence someone else always has to initiate the transfer.
Huff that hopium lad.
>No. I do believe that the Germans however lack the political will to be first,
What the frick is there to believe? Scholz has explicitly said they will not be first or do some special shit nobody else does (except for Gepards).
>hence someone else always has to initiate the transfer.
Initiate probably isn't quite true as chances are that some of the coordinated deliveries were informally started by Scholz (you can bet your ass he asked anybody else if they wanna send some Gepard-equivalents before sending them himself after he realized nobody has anything fitting), but for public appearances he won't send anything first.
Together with others at the same time like the IFVs, sure, but not first.
If the bongs start dusting off storage Challengers while training ukes, they could theoretically scrounge up 50-60 of them, which would be one brit armor regiment. As well as getting the same amount (if not more) of Challenger 1's from Jordan.
Greeks can frick themselves, israelites of the Mediterranean
God damn the germans and the french are a fifth column
How are the French fifth columnists? They are sending real tanks with wheels
Germany has sent more than France, Poland and Italy combined. Only the US has sent more actual equipment.
have a nice day, you fricking twitterite Black person.
No, it didn't.
It actually did, the UK has sent more military aid due to financial aid being specifically designated to only go to military matters officially being military aid.
But according to the latest updated from November Germany has sent about 2.2 billion in equipment while the UK has "only" sent 1.9 in actual equipment. If we go by all aid (including financial aid and contributions via the EU that includes military aid, humanitarian and financial aid) only the US has sent more than Germany.
It's likely more by now for both though.
Anon's right.
>a thread on /k/
>about Ukraine
>its a sensible, restrained, discussion
WHAT THE FRICK
>hope
>immediately smashed by a butthurt low-info tourist
kek
You just had to open your big fat mouth and summon the tourists from the east, didn't you?
>could
Zisters are we low on hopium?
The US should send crates of AKs, RPG-7s and Toyota Hiluxes. Seemed to work for the Afghans.
>Toyota Hiluxes
Germany unironically did that part though the vehicles obviously weren't Japanese.
typical germany. never trust them
>send the second most aid worldwide
>butthurt slavs say you can't be trusted
If that's Germany not trying, what would be the effect of Germany actually trying?
And what's with the gibsBlack person mentality?
Does it also count takin in millions of refugees? I mean the actual refugees, not Social parasites.
Probably not or the EU aid portion would be more substantial and to quote a bong
>humanitarian aid isn't real aid
>counting EU aid as their aid
where do you think the EU money comes from?
Even if we ignore EU aid (fir which there is no reason at all) Germany is still the third highest contributor overall and second highest for military materiel alone, which begs the question:
Where do all the morons who think Germany hasn't sent anything come from?
Hate the German is easy (you)s.
We should just fricking launch a nuclear first strike on Russia and be done with it.
Enough pussy-footing around the fact that Russia is a degenerate rogue state run by mentally unhinged schizophrenics with the ability to destroy the planet. The most surefire way to make sure they don't do it is to take that ability away from them, permanently.
>fishing for a ban with obvious off-topic /misc/posting
lmao dumb tourists
I assume that Challenger and Leopards are sent because there are Ukrainian soldiers and Maintainers that received a proper training in operating and repairing them on top of Ukraine preparing a proper Logistical lines to keep those tanks functional. Sending 10 Abrams while there's no crews or proper mechanics to use these would be pointless if Ukies don't have any of that.
Unless that's exactly what Germas wants. Waste months to even a extra year before Ukraine can use those Abrams and in the meantime Ukies will have to rely on old post soviet tanks from Ex-Warsaw pact countries.
>Just send 100 Abrams and be done with it, Jesus
you dont get it
weapons are based on hype look at tb2 orders skyrocketed during ukraine war but once that ukranian official came out and basicly told the truth that they have zero tb2s left since early march the major cancellation came from taiwan that instead gonna built an arsena of 3000 smaller drones
same is with tanks if abrams gets blown out here and there its not really good for the market now isnt it and germany has overhyped their leopard series to infinty and beyond
Brainlet take.
And the Abrams and Leopards aren't over hyped, they are simply that good.
thy are overhyped to shit and beyond
remember when the turks used theirs in syria?
yeah it went well didnt it...
usa never published their loses but we know in the first gulf war at least 22 went out of service deemed to costly to repair
and so far 19 from the saudis have being destroyed
I hate Polacks so much
>Haha Ukraine we totally want to send you our Leopard 2 fleet :DDD, but germany wont let us X(( germany is so evil and mean please gig monies
What is the final destination clause, moron? Who makes parts for the tanks?
Sorry we're exposing Offal Shlock for being a cunctator to the German public opinion, breaking his various copes about how it's le dangerous and le impossible to do x, y and z. i guess your side of the argument will have to actually try use merit instead of obfuscation.
see
And be quiet.
So can we finally admit that poolacks are subhuman filth? Can we finally agree that they ought to be exterminated
Just because polish noguns tourists here are bottom of the barrel human filth doesn't mean all of them are, the 2 polish oldgays we had were always just fine.
What the frick did you expect? What kind of person do you think would go on a gun board with no real interest in the actual topic it's supposed to be about just to post about the current slav-war of the decade?
They're not good people and probably only ended up here after getting bullied out of /misc/ due to being too weak to handle the heat there, but they're not representative of poles as a whole.
All poolacks are butthurt nogunz fit only to be exterminated. Dirlechad was right. He should have killed and raped all the poolacks. And after this war Germany should partition pooland between Germany, Ukraine and Russia
>muh official numbers
yeah, the numbers that skip about 300 MBTs and however many fighter jets, kraut moron. Crow more about your shitty contribution, homosexual jingoist shill.
Hint: You're wrong.
You're arguing with poolack. We need to revive dirlegang and exterminate those subhuman Black folk
Wtf is Belgium's problem?
Brussels is the de facto capital of the EU so a lot of the EU money is used by EU institutions there.
>nuh huh! We totes provided more than hundreads fo thanks!
Look at this shitheel and laugh.
My favorite part of incessant kraut shilling is trying to claim Ukrainian victories like kharkiv while not providing any offensive vehicles. Just yeste4rday a kraut links an a Bild interview with Kuleba and I can read the homosexual representing the rag trying hard to pin the offensive on the meager kraut aid. Meanwhile Ukrs had to use a tiny amount of tanks available to make a single breakthrough and pour into a breach and push it all the way over there. But of course krauts can't provide tanks, too risky! Even though they're a fair distance away from the war.
Just a bunch of vultures who still can't decide if they don't want to throw in with Russia like they originally intended but oh boy do they demand praise.
>make up claim with no source
>make up strawman with no basis
Provide your own Leopards if you want ukes to have them so much, until then stop whining.
>inb4 but Poland said they'll send Leopards!
So where's the request to do so?
PS: Gepards were critical in Karkhov.
>PS: Gepards were critical in Karkhov.
No they weren't. Muh drone killing. Wow, it's fricking nothing.
>>make up strawman with no basis
tell us again how gepards won kharkif. In detail.
>Muh drone killing
that's been quite a long saga
>No they weren't. Muh drone killing. Wow, it's fricking nothing.
Do tourists today actually believe the Gepard's main job is killing drones?
>the numbers that skip about 300 MBTs and however many fighter jets,
Are those the fairytale poles tell themselves to feel better?
>we totally sent more materiel than the UK, it's just super secret
Yeah, I don't think so.
>allow
What does he mean "allow"? Poland can do whatever it wants, what is Germany going to do, invade them? The Poles can do whatever they want with their tanks.
In modern arms contracts you need permission to resell or donate weaponry, that clause is part in basically every contract to avoid your enemies getting a look at your technology too easily.
Poland could send German tanks without permission but it will ensure that nobody's going to send them anything again in the future and polish autarky is still about a century off.
Because I don't let my opinions get swayed by a couple of screeching morons on the internet.
I didn't write they shouldn't get western tanks, I wrote soviet tanks are better right now and they are.
Stop being an overly aggressive homosexual. What are you? A mobik?
Who cares what the Germans want. Send them, let Scholz throw a shitfit. They're replacing their tank fleet with Abrams anyway. They should just do it, force Scholz to either capitulate or break from the American bloc and explicitly side with the Russians, hopefully causing Germany to get sanctioned or something.
First of all, see here
You've got a lot of catching up to do before you can complain about German contributions.
Second of all, breaking that clause will make sure you get no Abrams at all because guess what, you stupid tourist Black person, the same clause is in that contract as well as any other contract about foreign weaponry.
I don't care. His objections make no sense. On principle, he shouldn't be listened to, and should be punished for retaliating.
well, Poland is way poorer than Germany, and 40 years of communism stunted Polish abilit to produce domestic AFVs
Cope harder poolack. Germany and Russia will soon partition you Black folk yet again. This time for good
>I didn't write they shouldn't get western tanks, I wrote soviet tanks are better right now and they are.
Excuses excuses you fricking homosexual. Were BM-21 grads the better option for Ukraine instead of HIMARs, I mean they knew how to use them and had ammo for them? Or are you just a fence sitting homosexual who is making excuse for other fence sitting homosexuals?
>Were BM-21 grads the better option for Ukraine instead of HIMARs
No, which is why Germany and Britain sent MARS2 launchers which are basically HIMARS with twice the missile load.
But learning how to use a missile launcher and learning how to use a tank are extremely different challenges.
You're looking at 4-6 months of training time here for competent crews, 2 if you don't want competent crews.
Soviet tanks have a training time of 0 months.
to be fair the biggest problem with training Ukrainians to use Western Tanks would be maitnance and field repairs, since most soviet era tanks use upgraded t-34 engine
>You're looking at 4-6 months of training time here for competent crews, 2 if you don't want competent crews.
Fun facts that you completely pulled out of your ass. You know how I know you made that shit up? I’ll tell you, it’s because it’s not even gonna take two months to train Ukies on Bradlys, a completely different IFV platform than they currently operate, and it only took them one month to learn how to use HIMARs (they had additional training later about how to maintain them later), which was a completely different MLRS platform than what they had used previously. If decision making was left up to homosexuals like you the Ukies wouldn’t even have HIMARs because you’re too moronic to look past a short-term time horizon.
you also didn't took into consideration that some of the ukrainian crews may alrady be trained to operate western tanks.
Source?
it's a speculation. truth is we don't know everything, and what sort of training do AFU recive in NATO countries.
Let's just say I hope you're right.
>Fun facts that you completely pulled out of your ass.
Wrong.
>I’ll tell you, it’s because it’s not even gonna take two months to train Ukies on Bradlys, a completely different IFV platform than they currently operate,
IFVs aren't tanks
>and it only took them one month to learn how to use HIMARs (they had additional training later about how to maintain them later),
HIMARs aren't even close to being comparable either.
Goddamn, anon.
> IFVs aren't tanks
Yeah because tanks are some magical piece of technology that Ukies simply can’t comprehend. You’re a fricking joke.
Sounds like you're arguing out of ignorance and based on wishful thinking.
Why?
You sound like you are trying to create a level of difficulty that simply doesn’t exist out of thin air. Why? Do people suddenly need to go to a 4 year college to learn how to drive a western tank, or to fricking load one? Is it space age technology that the Ukies simple can’t grasp? But then again they grasped the HIMARs and the TOW missiles on the Bradlys, as well as the rest of their electronic suite, fairly quickly. So what the frick makes the tank such an uncrackable nut (other than you being an immense homosexual of course)?
>You sound like you are trying to create a level of difficulty that simply doesn’t exist out of thin air.
I was referring to the statement of a general, either a brit or a slovakian, on it.
It was in another thread.
Also holy shit calm down. Job training for an M1 Armor Crewmember requires 22 weeks of One Station Unit Training. Part of this time is spent in the classroom and part in the field under simulated combat.
Despite what you might want to be true, tanks really are a bit of a different beast.
>this is the bureaucratic bullshit a US serviceman has to go through to be on a tank so it’s a 1 for 1 comparison of what the Ukies have to go through
>vague generic bullshit statement about tanks being a different “beast”
Holy shit you are unironically moronic, like mouth breathing moronic. It also takes several months to years for US servicemen to be “properly” trained on Bradlys, HIMARs, patriots, M109s, etc… but Ukies get the expedited courses on all of them, like they would with tanks (which aren’t levels of complexity different from modern IFVs, SPGs, etc…). You’re a fricking a homosexual. Fencing sitting homosexual. homosexual. homosexual. homosexual. Your death could never come to soon.
>It also takes several months to years for US servicemen to be “properly” trained on Bradlys, HIMARs, patriots, M109s, etc…
No it doesn't.
>but Ukies get the expedited courses on all of them like they would with tanks
That's why I put down 2 months for a crew that isn't particularly well trained.
>(which aren’t levels of complexity different from modern IFVs, SPGs, etc…)
You're a bit of a moron, bro. Tanks are absolutely more complex than IFVs.
>You’re a fricking a homosexual. Fencing sitting homosexual. homosexual. homosexual. homosexual. Your death could never come to soon.
You talk like a russian.
>No it doesn't.
>source: my ass
Lmao. You come out here with “classroom training” and “simulated combat” bullshit in
and act like only tankers get drilled with theory and simulations when training for the US military. You are a fricking joke. This is your last (you).
Anon, it doesn't take years to be properly trained on any of the equipment you mentioned.
You're fricking delusional.
https://www.nationalguard.com/19k-m1-armor-crewman
Here's a source for the national guard.
You have no idea what you're talking about, made shit up and embarrassed yourself.
The guys who come out of AIT/TS/Ect know enough for basic operation but generally take another year or 2 of OJT to be considering skilled on any equipment or job.
Atleast my command would not deploy anyone until they they finished the 5 lvl OJT which is 1 year xp and all 5 level tasks signed off.
The intial training is just to make you compent enough to learn your job from the people who actually know what they are doing.
I only know my branch but its
Lvl 1 Untrained (cant touch anything)
Lvl 3 Finished intial schooling (can only touch shit if a lvl 5 is watching)
Lvl 5 ( can do stuff alone)
Lvl 7 (can certify lower levels and advanced level tasks)
Lvl 9 (Admin desk work dont actually touch things anymore)
No Nonono, just no.
The butthurt polack tourist made very clear that a couple weeks would suffice and he's the expert. I'm sure he has driven lots of tanks in his life.
>Holy shit you are unironically moronic, like mouth breathing moronic. It also takes several months to years for US servicemen to be “properly” trained on Bradlys, HIMARs, patriots, M109s, e
Neverserved noguns moron.
have a nice day, vatBlack person.
>Those screeching morons represent majority of their 120% of their subhuman nation
No they don't.
Anon what the frick are you talking about?
Whose objections?
Scholz hasn't even said no to Poland about the deliveries yet, vice-chancellor Habeck already said he wants to allow Poland to send them.
Poland had a lot of soviet shit they wanted to get rid of anyway, which made parting with it quite easy. Parting with modern tanks and the like is harder, which is why after nearly an entire year Poland's only willing to give away a handful of Leopards as well.
Plus, I don't think Poland's GDP is half the size of Germany's is it?
The repair shops set up in slovakia by the Bundeswehr should be very useful for that. Others will chime in as well I'm sure. Poland is right nearby and has experience with the Leopard as well, among others.
PiS talks about the fourth reich and
>muh heckin evil Germany
every week anyway so nobody has expectations in regards to that when it comes to Poland anymore.
you may talk shit about PiS, but they are way better than konfedeBlack folk
I'm sure there are worse options than PiS for Poland, but the constant hate boner they've had for Germany will have negative consequences for Poland. German media blacked it out completely all those years to ensure people don't get doubts about the "European project" and start listening to those evil eurosceptics, but this week, for literally the first time, I've seen a major publication write an article about what PiS is doing and has done in regards to Germany and how they constantly do the
>muh nazi
thing, which doesn't really bother me, but that's a very quick way to piss a lot of boomers, traditional "conservatives" and leftists off.
Might've been a one time thing, if not Germans will actually start noticing and relations will get frosty, which due to the integrated economies in Europe and the central role Germany has, is going to create a lot of potential for massive issues for Poland.
I expect him to, but I'm willing to let him surprise me. His line has been clear from the start and he doesn't want to be responsible for all western tanks in Ukraine.
To force anything bongs will need to send about a battalion of them, 10 won't do shit.
>I remember a thread a few weeks ago where a German autist who hates Scholz said how Scholz is a bastard who basically holds back support. Then half a dozen German simps jumped in to protect Scholz and called the German autist a liar. German autist then provided sources, both English and German, proving what he claimed
I remember that anon and he did lie, because the sources didn't say what he said they did (in German).
The English sources did because they quoted visegrad24 which lied about the contents.
Also pretty sure he wasn't German.
We both know Scholz will say no. He just has to be ignored.
or maybe bongs will try to upstage his by providing challangers, forcing his hand, just like the Poles did with patriots
I don’t think you are aware, but Scholz doesn’t even make that decision on his own. The decision is made by a council.
That’s not how international arms deals work, anon.
Pshht, don’t tell them.
Yes they do. Because they don’t know where mobile AAA shines compared to large stationary missle batteries.
That one is not exactly new.
Yes they are. Poolacks hate Noble Germans, out of envy and their inherit evil. Those that are kind to you only pretend to like you so they can leech money of you. They despise Based Hitler and cry about "muh generalplan ost". Those su huamn filth need to be exterminated for the good of Germany and the white race.
I remember a thread a few weeks ago where a German autist who hates Scholz said how Scholz is a bastard who basically holds back support. Then half a dozen German simps jumped in to protect Scholz and called the German autist a liar. German autist then provided sources, both English and German, proving what he claimed. They just kept calling him a liar and despite the sources said 'Well Scholz didn't SPECIFICALLY say that tanks were banned he just said there was an agreement not to send tanks and told Spain not to send them!!!" which is apparently different.
It was mega based. There is a huge swathe of Germans and diaspora in Germany who defend Germany by going 'Well we've sent a lot of aid... not military, but our EU contributions are great!' and cite shit like Ukrainian Donation Tracker which covers that shit.
tl;dr Germany is constantly hamstringing shit for some reason and people keep defending them.
>Well we've sent a lot of aid... not military, but our EU contributions are great!' and cite shit like Ukrainian Donation Tracker which covers that shit.
Germany has literally sent the most military materiel worldwide with the only exception being the USA. See
have a nice day vatBlack person.
Just nuke Germany already
To be fair the Leopard 2A4s Polands sending are shitty early batch 1-5 Leopard 2s without the armor packages of titanium and tungsten, so really low armor protection, like 400 or so mm on the frontal turret vs ke, marginally better than waht they've been getting.
way better fcs, reverse speed, and ammo tho.
lmfao, how does nafo defend the smo anymore?
>"how do we 'lose' as slow as possible"
is the official US/EU strategy
its truly an extinction-event for kiev'namese people
Been they're poolacks
>will magically unlock the German tank tech tree?
because once you break a taboo once, it's easier to do it again.
10 challenger 2s could kill 100 T-72s
What if "Russia" attack Germany(car bomb or something) in order Germany go full ape out in Ukraine?
Muh symbolism prevented DDR T55s from rolling into Czechoslovakia in 1968 and left the job to be done by othef Warzaw Pact members.
WW2 broke the krauts.
Read the OP again, moron.
No.
Black person these things already agreed upon. Logistics takes time. A bit of emotional roller-coaster for the herd.
I hate Germany so much it's unreal.
Germans are white while poolacks are Black folk
Tell your president to send 50 tanks then
Poolacks won't do shit. The best option is for Germany to ally with the Victor of this war and exterminate all poolacks
>The most recurent point of dissension between Ukraine's supporters on /k/ is the amount of military equipement send by their countries, not because they think they should send less and be more fair, but because they think they should send even more advanced shit to flex their MIC capabilities and to show that their weapons are better at butchering vatniks than others
It's honestly very funny. It's also hilarious that France's seemed to have baited the UK, Germany, Poland and US into sending heavy tanks by sending light "tanks".
>moron zoomer thinks politicking is videogames
go outside
>moron Black person can't read simple English
Dumb frick,that's the exact mindset OP is criticizing.
those old boomers don't think in terms of stupid video game shit in the slightest, they think about blame and accountability, why do you think they shit out meaningless "Muh escalation" excuses for months on end, you double dumb frick
Anon, it's an allegory.
yeah I know, maybe I wasn't being clear before, so sorry if that's the case. but I'm saying the allegory is inappropriate. less about one thing enabling another and more about being not wanting to be left holding the bag so "oh well it's up to germany, oh it's up to the US, oh it's not finalised we'll talk about it next week"
Poland will be sending Leo's regardless of the decision, we just enjoy seeing Scholz sweating in front of the public/international opinion.
I hope Polaks do send the rusty leos without asking anyone for permission and breach the kraut clause. Kraut scums will be mad but nobody will care. Polaks now have superior Korean toys.
Cope poolack. You'll be split between Germany and Russia yet again.