Virginia-Class in the USA=$3.5 billion per unit
Cost of 8 Virginia-Class/SSN(X)=$268-$368 billion???
Why is Australia getting ripped off?
Preparedness & self-sufficiency community
Virginia-Class in the USA=$3.5 billion per unit
Cost of 8 Virginia-Class/SSN(X)=$268-$368 billion???
Why is Australia getting ripped off?
It's not just the subs, there's infrastructure and personnel
Damn. Maybe we ought have developed a proper nuke power industry first.
No, that wouldn't have helped unless we started when the US started.
I mean, you still should, just because it's a good thing to do. All western nations should go hard on nuclear power to base load their grids.
It's "green" and provides tons of really well paying jobs.
The reactors are going to be literally welded shut so Aussies cannot access them. Yes really, it’s a nuclear treaty thing
That's normal for sub PWRs isn't it?
The entire reactor is a modular assembly that can just be pulled out and replaced.
>problem with the reactor while at sea
Seems like periodic inspections would make more sense. The non-proliferation treaty concerns are retarded since we could just give them nukes if we wanted to and nobody would know.
>The reactors are going to be literally welded shut so Aussies cannot access them
Give me two hours and i will have access to them.
with the reactor while at sea
>like periodic inspections would make more sense.
Imagine your friends are trustworthy and even though they're fully trained on how to operate, check, and maintain the reactor, they simply keep out of reapirs with a 2-Party key system and street-level honesty.
If you can possibly imagine such a world, it's called The West.
Hey dipshit, nuke guy here, you don't know what you're talking about and should stop while you're behind.
This was rude of me and unhelpful to lurking anons. Allow me to expand on it constructively.
Western naval reactors are a pressurized light water design (commonly abbreviated to "PWR".) This means they must remain sealed to maintain a high boiling point of the reactor coolant (extremely, laboratory grade, pure water.)
This is also the design used in many commercial power reactors, in fact, the first nuclear power plant was a naval ship reactor in a building hooked up to the grid.
Now, the only reason you ever open a PWR is to refuel, or remove damaged fuel (usually caused my foreign material that got into the system. An item as small as the ball point from a pen can completely fuck a fuel rod as it flies through the reactir at hundreds of thousands of gallons per minute flow.)
A naval reactor, however, uses weapons grade 98%+ pure U235. This means it can run fir decades without refueling, and by the time you need to replace the uranium, the reactor is two or three generations obsolete.
It is also completely impractical to remove the neutron absorbing control rods from the reactor, because it could lead to spontaneous fission geometry of the extremely pure fuel. You would also need somewhere to place the fuel on board that could handle waste heat removal, which you simply do not have room for in a submarine. (Commercial reactors transfer all the fuel to a spent fuel storage pool during shutdown.)
For this reason, navy reactors are sealed containers, with no intention of refueling or service.
This does not, however, mean the system is not serviceable. While the reactor pressure vessel is permanently sealed, the systems and valves are not, and are routinely refurbished and inspected.
The reactor room is NOT welded shut, the reactor pressure vessel IS. This appears to be the point of misunderstanding.
Have a look at my job for reading this far.
everytime I think about something this complex, I feel way too retard and at the same time wondering how could a bunch of sack of meats desing and build such a piece of technology. truly amazing
aha, like that natural reactor in africa
>The natural nuclear reactor formed when a uranium-rich mineral deposit became inundated with groundwater, which could act as a moderator for the neutrons produced by nuclear fission. A chain reaction took place, producing heat that caused the groundwater to boil away; without a moderator that could slow the neutrons, however, the reaction slowed or stopped. The reactor thus had a negative void coefficient of reactivity, something employed as a safety mechanism in human-made light water reactors.
>tfw an African sinkhole had more modern safety features than an RBMK nuclear reactor
PS: btw, thanks for the post
I used to practice foil fencing with a woman in the Navy, she had recently finished a deployment on a sub and was being sent to do a nuclear physics PhD with the promise of some higher level positon once done, she was already a lieutenant commander at the time, so no idea exactly what she was up to. She enjoyed talking about the science behind nuclear reactions more than anything navy related.
You run into a lot of weird military types in the DC area though.
What happens if you dive in?
You get a lethal dose of radiation if you get too close to the core.
As long as you stay more than ~8' away from anything radioactive, you're fine. If you get closer than that, you can potentially go from safe to dead within inches.
>It is also completely impractical to remove the neutron absorbing control rods from the reactor, because it could lead to spontaneous fission
You have triggered my autism. Well done.
t. works in the nuke industry
He worded it in a weird way but he isn't wrong
I understand what he's saying, but spontaneous fission is a decay mode. It's not the rights term to use.
I'm a field tech, we're more alcoholic than science. But you are correct.
I should have said critical geometry or something similar.
In my defense, I was describing the situation for people on PrepHole
What do you do in nuke?
Please note that the VA is the first US sub class specifically designed to never be refueled. All previous classes required at least one refueling in order to last their expected service lifetime.
>Opening a nuclear reactor on a sub
>Opening it ever
>Opening it AT SEA
You are the dumbest fucking gorilla moron, the dargest blackest fucking spookacoon on planet fucking earth. I hope being this stupid is fucking painful.
the reactors are built for the life of the sub, and if they DO get a life extension program, they just pop the reactor module out and install a new one.
It doesn't make any sense to ever "open" one up.
>It doesn't make any sense to ever "open" one up.
What if the spirits inside of it get restless, how are you gonna exorcise them?
That's the other thing I don't like about us buying nuclear subs, it revisits the tired nuclear debate. Sure the costings don't work. So it will take us years to build up the necessary infrastructure and personnel on top of the cost of storing spent rods for a millenia. Every politician will be pushing it onto someone else cause they don't want one slapped down in their backyard. But even though this gov decided against civil nuclear we are okay with investing in nuclear subs? Okay.
>storing spent rods for a millenia
chang do you not realise the sheer amount of uninhabited desert we have? we can basically dump that shit anywhere we wish
Just so we are clear in spite of the risk and the cost in burying glowy greenshit, I would not mind civil nuclear power.
But politically, it seems odd that Albo goes 'yeah nah we're doing solar power and no nuclear' only to say 'nuclear subs are fine.'
the fossil fuel industry has and has always both parties (plus and especially the greens) in their pockets. i consider us to be very lucky to get nuclear subs at all instead of 10 years of government fuckabouts trying to source modern diesel subs
>has and has always both parties
has and has always had. i can't write for shit it seems
Then leave Australia if you don’t like it.
When you retire the subs, just send them back to the US for decommissioning. What's so hard about that?
we need to put one up on blocks at the maritime museum to conduct tours through. we have an oberon for that right now
We well and truly know that nuclear power is pointless, but it doesn't stop people from talking about it and saying "lol just build a power plant".
Power plants take 30 years to build and never make their money back.
In an age of growing amount of renewables, increasing efficiency and decreasing demand for gas and coal, nuclear power has no place. Who the fuck wants to spend 50 billion on one nuke plant that will take 30 years (without delays) to build and run? Not a country of 26 million people.
This has to be bait. I refuse to believe you're actually this stupid or wilfully ignorant.
You forgot half your post. The more important part.
The part where you actually respond to any of the points brought up.
You literally made numbers up from thin air, nothing, not a single thing you said, was accurate or factual.
>in b4 anon finds a plant that got legislated to hell and back by anti-nuke greens and took 30 years to finish
You said without delays moron, don't be a gay.
So you disagree, that's fine. My numbers of 50 billion and 30 years are estimates that I've heard more than once in relation to building Australia's first nuclear reactor designed for electricity supply.
There is simply no worth in it for any of the eight states and federal government. You are welcome to respond to my points at any time, or express your own opinion on the value of building a power plant, somewhere. Maybe at the very least, you could say where YOU would have it built.
Nah, you're a cunt and you're making shit up. Go be clinically retarded somewhere else.
Wow, rude and ignorant, thanks for nothing. You couldn't even answer a simple question on where you'd place your imaginary power plant, pathetic.
>OMG you're not playing my game that I made up the rules to and started by spewing a complete lack of knowledge on the topic?! How DARE you! I have clearly won.
Try that on someone that hasn't had to deal with you gun grabbing disingenuous gays before. All your arguments are made in bad faith and you demonstrated you don't have enough kindergarten basic knowledge on the topic to even bother trying to address your totally ridiculous ramblings.
Why yes, I will grab one of the three guns I own, come and take it you ignorant prick.
Hey anon, I just wanted to come back and apologize for the whole shit interaction. It was pretty childish.
I don't think the data you're basing your opinions on is valid, and I really think you should do some independent research on plants in countries like France that have embraced nuclear power and the recycling of spent fuel to get a wider picture on the subject.
>Heat dome moves over 800 square mile region
Can solar function properly in 115F+?
Can wind generate energy when a heat dome leads to stagnant air currents?
These conditions can last for weeks.
Conditions that increase demand for renewable energy are causally linked with degradation of energy output.
Nuclear has to be a portion of the energy pie.
>I mean, you still should, just because it's a good thing to do.
It's a completely stupid thing to do. No answer to the waste problem. We are going to export solar power internationally within a few years. That's how stupid of an idea nuclear is for Australia.
I fucking hate you, being this opinionated while simultaneously being this stupid should be fucking punishable by public violence.
Yeah you got nothing, as per everyone pro nuclear.
Fucking weird cargo cult mother fuckers.
Unlike you, I happen to have knowledge in this area. Senior Radiological Technician, nice to meet you.
Based. Ignore the chineman
It just scuffs my nuts when people with absolutely no knowledge on the topic start speaking out against nuclear power.
They read a bunch of totally BS propaganda, don't know enough to fact check it, and then go around on some retarded crusade like a gun grabber.
Don’t I fucking know it. Had to work with a German girl recently….
I'm sorry for your burden.
I work at my plant with a Swedish guy.
Wouldn't someone working at a nuclear plant be pro-nuclear regardless of ethnicity?
Common sense doesn't factor when talking about swedes. They're the most arrogant race of motherfuckers on the planet.
It's literally hot rocks that boil water and make electricity you stupid fucking cunt what the fuck don't you understand? God, I fucking despise Australians.
We don’t bother engaging you
You literally fell for coal baron propaganda.
Nuclear waste is EASILY contained. Coal spews out literal fucking mercury that fucked up an area in my state so bad only poor nogs with no money don’t leave.
We don’t talk to you because you’re so ignorant and retarded. It is like talking to a flat earthier. No amount of numbers or any other type evidence will ever change your mind.
Every mining operation produces tailings that need to be buried forever.
Not to mention the heavy metals used in solar that become toxic waste in three years when the solar cells are trash and need replaced. And the fact that current "recycling" of solar panels is basically "I dunno, it's clean and green, just bury it I guess?"
Remember those planes we loaned you in WWII you never payed for and then pushed them into the sea so you could claim they don't exist? It'll be like that, I wouldn't worry.
Greens will chuck a fit and probably murder whoever tries.
This probably would have significantly reduced the total program coat.
Australians are notoriously anti-Nuclear. Right wing hates it because muh coal, left wing hates it because muh Chernobyl muh waste.
Not completely true. Right wing cares about coal export the most, since it's a cash cow for the economy.
Using nuclear power over coal power domestically is not that sensitive an issue for the right as it is for the left.
I thought Australia already had it.
Even fucking Brazil has it, how Australia didn't?
shipping/handling and tax
Plus tip. They are American, after all 🙂
like we selling them bros?
No, personnel to man and maintain them
More like training courses and teachers.
Don't forget building a shipyard that can produce them in the first place.
Total program lifecycle. It's an estimate of how much will be paid over the entire service life of the platform. It's what competent militaries do instead of just buying a ton of shit they can't afford to ever actually run
Exchange rate. Wankerbucks are worth less than burger certificates.
It's quite annoying to know Keating got sublimated. He was a very good PM.
This will be the first time in a long time our submarine situation will actually be stable, predictable and permanent. It is one hell of an investment. Also: Anglo-gang.
Keating was a subhuman and so are (You)
Keating has always been pro Asia anti-US. It's no surprise he became a PRC shill in his dotage.
>Keating has always been pro Asia anti-US. It's no surprise he became a PRC shill in his dotage.
China is not about to Australia let's get real here. How exactly do the submarine protest us?
Holy mega esl
how long until B-21s are announced
if they are that serious about procurement then B-21s will be the next step. plus they are way cheaper than submarines, more numerous and with the right missiles just as good or better at deterring/btfoing surface ships
nuclear submarine tech is more classified than stealth tech so shouldnt be an issue. it will also help the US with more funds being pumped into the project and thus reducing unit costs over time. there was already real talks of it happening
doubt we'll have the shekels now, subs were the big ticket deterrent
Whatever the US thinks we need, we'll get. Economic situation doesn't look good enough? Suddenly it will.
Porcupine, long quills. That means air too.
2-300 odd billion over the next 3 or 4 decades. That's about 10 billion a year, maybe less. We'll surely have enough room to fit in a couple B-21s.
>Chinese spy landing in Australian missile base gets jumped on by security teams.webm
Why are kangaroos such cunts?
They are one of the few mammals on this continent that’s able to defend itself from retarded introduced species, they have a right to be cunts. That and to my knowledge they are the only animal that’s able to put you in a headlock
We could do a silly amount of damage with xorcet type missiles in kyacks and limpet mines. China isn't even ready for third world naval warfare.
The backbone of China's navy is converted fishing ships with deck guns and mines, Chinese shore based missiles are really very advanced but the issue for China is more in stopping American strategic bombers and ICBN- they can't. Nuclear engagements at sea are expected and this means doom for China because the Chinese rely on shipping lanes staying open
As other anons have said, there's more costs than just the subs. There's the whole lifecycle of the subs (annually they cost a pretty penny to maintain and keep running) but there's also all the facilities required for their maintenance, and also the shipyards for building the future subs.
I actually live near Port Adelaide, only a few kilometres from where the Osborne Shipyards are located. This announcement is quite exciting for our area as it's historically been quite economically depressed since the advent of containerisation.
Local people do see the benefits of our area getting a nice chunk of the sub money but much like OP many of them are myopic morons who can't help but cluck their tongue at the $368 billion figure while complaining about muh mortgage stress or ambulance ramping, without considering the fact that $368 billion over the course of 30+ years works out at only about $12 billion per year. Meanwhile many of the same idiots cheer on policies like negative gearing or the stage 3 tax cuts, the latter of which is projected to result in something like $240 billion worth of lost tax revenue over the span of a decade.
ITT: Chinese tears.
The Chinese will spend the next ten years trying to stop this project and it won't even matter because the Americans already have the submarines they need.
Reminder that China controls 80% of the worlds commercial shipping, but cannot control even a single shipping channel between an oil producing region (any) and China.
One is in Indonesia, one in Malaysia, one between Indonesia and Australia, wild card antarctic route.
Australia or any other western power could block all of these with only 4 submarines and all China can do is cry.
This isn't ww2, torpedoes are submerged and fully guided. A single sub could sink 20 Chinese bulk carriers before needing to resupply. Submarine warfare is somthing white people are very good at, and something Chinese people threaten but have never actually attempted.
The big immediate news is a sub fleet based in Perth with US/RN subs. The Indian Ocean is full China, fuck off
china is run by literal retards who think its a good idea to antagonise and pester the entire world in peacetime
when youre an economic power the absolute last thing you want to do is antagonise your trading partners and instead you want to bring them under your economic sphere of influence
japan was on the verge of signing a bunch of juicy trade deals with china until they went full schizo in the south china sea and around those japanese islands
india, all of south east asia, australia, and japan are now all eager to make china defacto landlocked if ever a real conflict broke out
What's the point of getting nucular subs if you don't have nukes to equip them with? Did aussies just want to lick America's balls again?
>cost of purchase
8 x 3.5 billion = 28 billion
>cost of operation
(268-28) to (368-28) / 240 to 340 billion over 30 years x 8 subs
1 billion per annum to operate an SSN
>Why is Australia getting ripped off?
It's cheaper than what the fucking frogs asked for their shitty diesel sub that don't even exist in a nuclear variant and can't stay underwater for more than 20 minutes
Frogs wanted 90 billion per Attack class sub
A Virginia would cost 46 billion maximum according to your numbers or as low as 33 billion
Checkmate Pierre you lost
Deal with it cunt
Fuck this frog thread
>shitty diesel sub that don't even exist in a nuclear variant and can't stay underwater for more than 20 minutes
Is specifically what the ~~*Aussies*~~ asked the French to build for them instead of just buying nuclear off the French like they're doing now with AUKUS. It was a deliberate Anglospheric plot to waste the French military industrial complex's time and money, the French should sell nuclear subs to Malaysia and Indonesia in retaliation.
situation is more complicated and has more context than just the french acting like victims
Stop lying. Anyone can look up that contract and see that France didn’t even put pencil to paper in terms of designing anything. They’ve received a lot of money for nothing.
It would be impossible to buy nuclear off the frogs as they don’t have the technology yet.
You first you absolute mong.
The aussies literally cancelled just as the program had reached a design milestone. There were hundreds of australian engineers getting trained in Cherbourg right up to this moment, with the first steel cutting planned less than 12 months away.
>It would be impossible to buy nuclear off the frogs as they don’t have the technology yet.
Absolute turbotard take.
>noooo refuelling subs every few years in a process that takes months is heckin’ valid
Fucking plebbitors. France is an irrelevant ‘power’, particularly when it comes to naval power. Stay mad.
>noooo refuelling subs every few years in a process that takes months is heckin’ valid
>In its markup of the Defense Authorization Bill for Fiscal Year 2020, the House Armed Services Committee asked NNPP (see p. 494) if it could design the next attack submarine to fit a life-of-ship LEU core.
>"the committee directs the Administrator for Nuclear Security, in coordination with the Secretary of the Navy, to provide a report to the congressional defense committees not later than December 15, 2019, assessing the feasibility of a design of the reactor module of the Virginia-Class replacement nuclear powered attack submarine that retains the existing hull diameter but leaves sufficient space for an LEU-fueled reactor with a life of the ship core
>The JASON report accepts the nuclear navy's arguments for the economic benefits of lifetime cores for submarine reactors, which have been introduced in the Virginia-class attack submarines, 17 of which are deployed with one more launched and five under construction. The group was apparently unable to study France's rapid-refueling arrangements that have reduced the refueling times for French nuclear submarines to weeks versus the years it takes the US Navy. It also does not express concern, as at least one expert has, about possible corrosion failures of nuclear power reactor systems that would not be inspected for three to four decades. Problems with these life-of-ship systems, which are not designed for service access, can be very costly. In 2015, welding was found to be defective in a joint in the steam supply piping of three new Virginia-class submarines. Contriving a way to replace the joint took the first submarine out of service for two years. France's nuclear safety authority requires that French naval reactors be thoroughly inspected every ten years.
Who's the plebbitor, retard?
>It would be impossible to buy nuclear off the frogs as they don’t have the technology yet
90 billions was total cost for 12 subs dumb aussmoron
Everything costs more in Australia
Australia NEVER states the price as a per unit price. It includes EVERYTHING, for THE ENTIRE PLANNED LIFE of the vehicle PROGRAM.
I can't make it any simpler but happy to meet your needs.
Silence, Frog. You lost, get over it.
>Per unit cost of sub in USD
>Projected total program cost for 8 subs, infrastructure, R&D, logistics, 30 year use, in kangeroo sheckles
I swear to god i will find you and beat you for being this stupid, anon. Just converting it into the fucking comparable currency puts it into 190-250 billion range, and its still not close to comparing the same thing
Infotainment package, mats, spare key, rust proofing, it all adds up.
Australians don't have real right wing politicians tho. What they have are closeted social-democrats larping as conservatives.
From a US perspective that might be true, however Australia actually mimics the most of the developed world in that sense.
The US is the exception, with the postions that democrats take, being conservative in most countries.
The US is basically gonna force Australia to accept this, consequences for pissing the UK and US off on this would FAR outweigh whatever the program will cost to run. It's in Australia's geopolitical and financial interest to go forward with this program.
They're already in too deep now. Getting started in AUKUS is one thing, but now that we've announced virginia-class sales and deployments/training, you've crossed the rubicon.
>The US is basically gonna force Australia to accept this,
>It's in Australia's geopolitical and financial interest to go forward with this program.
NOOOOOO STOP HELPING US AHHHHHHHH
> Australia will operate two classes of submarine, and if the build schedule for the SSN-AUKUS falls behind, has the option of purchasing additional Virginia-class boats from the United States
> Vice Admiral Jonathan Mead, head of the Australian Nuclear Powered Submarine Task Force, said the SSN-AUKUS design was "about 70 per cent mature".
So what are the odds Australia ends up buying more Virginia-class boats.
Bad. It’ll look extremely bad for whoever is in power.
>buying US subs
>no jobs for Adelaide (biggest factor)
>bungling an international project
>furthering the colonial mindset
I can’t think of a scenario that isn’t also a death sentence for the ruling government
Because they're a corrupt shithole that's practically invited the Communist Chinese forward beachheads, like Canada. Call it the 5th Column premium.