Here is a tentative peace plan to end the war. Please don't banish me to 4chan. It's terrible there.
>Russia withdraws all forces from Ukraine, reestablishing pre-2014 borders
>Russia reaffirms past agreements to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity with guarantees covered below
>Ukraine can join NATO, EU or any other international organization it wishes
>Ukraine will limit how many foreign NATO personnel can be stationed in Ukraine at a time
>limitations on weaponry NATO can stage in Ukraine, including WMDs for certain, and maybe other systems with the capability to strike deep into Russia
>then a demilitarized zone along the border that lasts until both nations agree it's not needed
>Russia gets a long-term lease of naval facilities in Sevastopol
>Russia contributes to a fund to rebuild Ukraine, perhaps starting small do to Russia's economic problems with increases tied to sanction relief
>return of all pows and civilians being detained by both sides
>submission of alleged war criminals to a UN war crimes tribunal
>general amnesty for Ukrainians who supported Russia and the break away republics
Thoughts?
PrepHole - Fantasy peace treaties
yeah
russia will keep any territories she isn't kicked out of, that's a fact.
that means most of what she holds today in all likelihood
Putin has to go and Russia must be demilitarized
I'm thinking political changes ought to be tied to international sanctions rather than the treaty ending this war.
Maybe there could be limitations on weapon systems Russia can deploy within a certain distance of Ukraine. I do think Russia getting a lease on the Sevastopol naval base could be a bone to throw them to get cooperation on other things. The amnesty isn't for war criminals determined by the UN tribunal. Just other random people who fought on the wrong side. Lots of civil wars end with agreements like this. The US did prosecute any Confederates at the end of the Civil War except those who oversaw Andersonville pow camp. And even most Nazis weren't prosecuted after WW2.
Ukraine needs a buffer zone between it and Russia to help mitigate any future threat from the East. Belgorod, Kursk, and the sorrounding oblasts would do.
>Ukraine needs a buffer zone between it and Russia to help mitigate any future threat from the East. Belgorod, Kursk, and the sorrounding oblasts would do.
What's more Russia need to accept being part of Ukraine's sphere of influence and can't be allowed to have notions of political, military or economic alliances with surrounding countries like China.
>and the oracle said unto putin that should he sally forth into the lands of ukraine, the children of Rus' would see their sphere of influence secured and an age of peace, prosperity and greatness would bless the land
putin and any successor from his circle will never agree to this
Russia will never agree to this because this was essentially the status quo before 2014 and it wasn't good enough for them
Russia never honor anything they sign
Also, go back to 4chan
>one way arms treaty favoring the aggressor and loser in the war
>russia gets to keep crimea at all
>very oddly worded "allow traitors and war criminals to go back to society"
>keep crimea
>reestablishing pre-2014 borders
>long term lease of Sevastopol
For fucking what, retard?
It would be a reasonable settlement prior to 2022, but now both parties are unwilling to compromise - Ukraine will try to reconquer all lost territory until they cannot realistically continue the fight and Putin has tied the fate of his regime to the outcome of the war by annexing parts of Ukraine and relinquishing territory at this stage would be absolutely disastrous. Russia will also continue this war probably even after her army is kicked out of Ukraine because ending this conflict prior to a Russian victory will cause a wave of dissent that Putin's regime may not survive
It seems like a comprise but really it's a list of concessions of which neither side would accept. So, more violence it is. Neither side will stop unless a tactical advantage is gained on the battlefield.
It is a matter of negotiation, but the zionist warmongers in Washington don't want peace talks they want Christian blood and war profits.
They are just evil, it's that simple. To them, war is a business. Dead Christians are just an expense. The hope for ending the this war is through the unity of holy Orthodoxy between Ukraine and Russia. The church is up against the zionist warmongers on a spiritual level.
>the poster count didn't go up for this post
>this is OP
by numbers you have about 7% chance of being right
No, I saw it happen retard. That's OP.
based noticer. sage and report
That post isn't me, morons.
Literally every post prior to that one was made by an individual IP. Please show us the poster that went from
>lol
to
>gnomish OVERLORDS
He’s saying that post counter not going up could also mean it’s one of the other posters that were already in thread, not necessarily OP
see
Please, honestly, just quote the poster that could go from mocking the OP for being an obvious shill to posting that bullshit.
Well even the first one could be it. Vatmorons like to mock peace proposals that don’t include surrender of their enemies. That said it’s not inconceivable for it to be a troll or shill including OP.
it’s honestly not that much of a stretch. They don’t need to invade it with meat waves, even cutting the land connection would make the peninsula difficult for Russia to supply.
Have your ~~*you*~~ you disgusting moron
>They are just evil, it's that simple.
Corrupt, lying, greedy, however you want to define it.
They sit in comfort and luxury and make billions while the poor man picks up his rifle and dies in their dirty wars. Enough, let us have peace.
Nobody would agree to this. And Putin will break any treaty he signs as soon as he see fits. Ukrainian NATO membership wouldn't stop his delusions and then we have to bet on the 90% chance that Russia's nukes aren't working.
It looks like something that could be palatable, but kind of assumes regime change in Russia
>Russia reaffirms past agreements to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity with guarantees covered below
Guarantees from Russia are absolutely worthless though.
I think NATO membership would be a guarantee that Russia couldn't mess with.
What's with the 4chancuck infestation lately?
That's a losers truce for russia and for russian speaking people of the regions that have wanted to break away from ukraine for a long time. Why would they ever accept that proposal and its humiliation? Maybe if they were on their last leg and ukraine on the cusp of overwhelming victory. Thats a long way off, russians would have to be starving in moscow and st Petersburg. Or maybe if nato had troops on russian soil and russian army was defunct. It may cone to that 5 years from now but this is still pretty early stage in the war sadly.
>Russia withdraws all forces from Ukraine, reestablishing pre-2014 borders
Delusional. This war is at least 2 years away from ending and it's really unlikely they won't keep Crimea.
This war has created some interesting fissures in many different political spheres. My favorite type of internet retard at the moment are leftists who unironically support Russia because they reflexively do the opposite of whatever the USA says. USA supports Ukraine, so Ukraine must be evil. They're teaming up with far-right schizos who hate Ukraine because they think it's a gnomish plot to steal money from the west and kill Christians, and Russia is based and trad (ignore their HIV rates please). This whole war is very strange and virtually everyone thinks something retarded about it
https://pastebin.com/rTaHddZi
Previously, this thread has been attempted and mods deleted it. They didn't move it to 4chan, they deleted it. Mostly because it's not weapons related, but it's also a honeypot for 4chantrolls and vatmoron sperge.
Just FYI. Don't let me discourage you from trying. But ...
>Peace Treaty
So full and complete defeat?
>submission of alleged war criminals to a UN war crimes tribunal
Including Putler?
I was thinking more like people who personally committed atrocities like killing civilians and pows or shooting down airliners. High ranking state officials probably wouldn’t be included. I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve it, but we’re trying to end the war reasonably here.
Unfortunately you are right or somebody would have proposed something similar by now.
There's a map thread on /hr/ with a lot of historical maps for reference. Worth browsing & saving a bunch of them.
The very first point before anything can happen is making Russia acknowledge that this is a war. Full. Stop. It must be public, probably a declaration in front of the United Nations.
Unconditional, immediate. The Un should hold a vote on that and collectively sign off no documents to establish that fact for all of history.
Then the next steps can begin.
>first point before anything can happen
2nd point before anything further can happen.
3rd point before anything further can happen: complete demilitarization of what remains of vatnikstan after points #1 and #2.
Here's a more realistic plan.
>Russia keeps all occupied territory
>Ukraine cannot join NATO or any other military organization
Ukraine will never take back Crimea and Donbass. Cope.
OK let'S have fun.
>Russia withdraws all forces from Ukraine, reestablishing pre-2014 borders
Baseline required for a peace, but Russia is unlikely to do so unless forced to.
>Russia reaffirms past agreements to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity with guarantees covered below
Russia is not a trustworthy partner for treaties anymore, they have shown to break any and all agreements at will, so this is inhereently impossible.
>Ukraine can join NATO, EU or any other international organization it wishes
Baseline right of any nation, no need to mention this.
>Ukraine will limit how many foreign NATO personnel can be stationed in Ukraine at a time
Laughable, why would Ukraine ever agree to this.
>limitations on weaponry NATO can stage in Ukraine, including WMDs for certain, and maybe other systems with the capability to strike deep into Russia
Laughable, see above.
>then a demilitarized zone along the border that lasts until both nations agree it's not needed
This must include all Russian Oblasts along teh border, no demilitarized zone on Ukraininan soil.
>Russia gets a long-term lease of naval facilities in Sevastopol
No. They had that, and used that base to attack Ukraine. Impossible to even considcer.
>Russia contributes to a fund to rebuild Ukraine, perhaps starting small do to Russia's economic problems with increases tied to sanction relief
Reasonable, but impossible due to corruption in Russia.
>return of all pows and civilians being detained by both sides
Baseline for a peace.
>submission of alleged war criminals to a UN war crimes tribunal
Baseline for a peace.
>general amnesty for Ukrainians who supported Russia and the break away republics
Certainlky possible, but really an internal Ukrainian matter.
tl;dr this is impossible, Russia will never agree to a peace. They need to be treated like Germany in 1945.
>They need to be treated like Germany in 1945
Occupied by, and rebuilt by, the US and its evil communist enemy into a slothful and cowardly ingrate?
you can criticize Germany for many things domestic and international, but you can't deny it stopped being a threat as a military aggressor.
We're discussing a peace plan, not an unconditional surrender that you're not even in the position to ask. Its quite funny how most of the nato crowd really can't grasp this concept.
Yes, it is going to be an unconditional surrender. By vatnikstan. The details of *how* the world continues in peace afterward is what this discussion is about.
Russia is over. Non-negotiable. Their cooperation will determine how severely and strictly the terms of their parole are applied.
>Russia is over. Non-negotiable.
Didn't your buddies try that already?
Stalin started WWII in Europe, Stalins sheer subhuman incompetence almost got the entirety of the soviet peoples exterminated
And they would’ve gotten away worth it too if it wasn’t for those pesky Western Allies, and their mangy colonies too!
I would welcome your peace treaty op but Putin won't
Russia's goal is to take not just the entirety of Ukraine, but a third of Poland, a strip of Romania, and all three Baltic nations. They're not going to agree to anything less than that unless their nation suffers a complete collapse that the Russian leadership recognizes that those goals are impossible to attain. Said recognition would probably result in a new Tsar, with all of the fun that would accompany such a change.
As long as we're in fantasy world here's my much better peace treaty.
>Russia is balkanized entirely, any citizen of the former nation caught calling it "Russia" is punished with prison time
>Ukraine gets all of its former territory back, plus a 10km buffer zone made of former Russian territory and the city of Belgorod
>Russian war criminals tried by Ukrainian courts, no international mediation
>All Soviet or otherwise pro-expansionist monuments within Russian territory are destroyed and replaced by memorials to victims of past Russian war crimes.
>All Russian oil and gas reserves are owned by foreign countries, former Russian territories get a small percentage
>The Russian school system is dismantled and replaced with a pro-western school system, and all Russian "culture" is to be eliminated and replaced
>Russians are taught English and the Russian language is abolished.
>Prigozin, Shoigu, and all former high command are summarily executed
>Putin is burned alive in an oil fire, the event is televised, all Russians are required by law to watch
>All Russian major cities and commerce centers have a 10mt nuclear warhead buried in the center in a steel vault that is hardwired to NATO control to facilitate instant decimation.
You can call it harsh but it's exactly what they'd do to us. Any "Peace treaty" with Russia that doesn't involve the destruction of the Russian state and identity is not a peace treaty, just a "Delay the Inevitable" Treaty.
T. Moderate
>globohomo signs the deal Russia wants or NATO and EUSSR HQ's get nuked
>The entire world population demands globohomo not sign
>contributes to a fund
Russia's forex has already been seized, they don't need to consent, just take that.
>Sevastopol
Not acceptable, that's a dagger in Ukraine's groin, as this war demonstrates. The port goes forever, and so does the Kerch bridge.
>amnesty for traitors
I'd agree and then just kill them anyway after a few years.
There is one tiny flaw with your proposal:
Russia's word is worthless. They are oath breakers. Anything signed by them is worth less than toilet paper. (Peace) treaties made with Russia are meaningless.
Probably. If Russia shows itself willing of taking the L of complete voluntary annexation, they can use this to very quickly force Ukraine to accept dropping some of their own terms.
Ukraine's bottom line is the territory. Its what the international support is meant to help them with. Its what Russia is mainly being sanctioned for.
If Russia publically says "We are willing to peacefully retreat from Crimea and establish a full status pro beli that denies Ukraine none of its sovereignty or autonomy, but in exchange we will be given the ability to freely rebuild, rearm and rearm giving only minimal financial compensation to Ukraine" they essentially have both Ukraine and the West by the balls. Yes, this would constitute a Russian defeat but it would be a very shallow defeat, one that Russia can come back from within 5 years at most. And because it will be seen as a defeat, Ukraine will see its foreign support get folded if it tries to hardball on reparations, because, hey, that is them just being unreasonable. Same for the west, if they deny sanctions relief even when Russia is folding its hand and leaving the table, they'll instantly lose the political credit they build up. They'd be the biggest loser in this instance, because now their plan to grind one of their rivals into insolvency has been utterly derailed, while for Ukraine it would actually be a very attractive offer that would safe thousands if not tens of thousands of Ukranian lives by assuring the peaceful return of Crimea.
I don't see the Sevastopol lease happening tho. Because Ukraine would be insane to offer it and Russia would be insane to accept it
*De-annexation
>Ukraine's bottom line
That would be to keep skimming globohomo cash, which is also paying for 100% of ukie govt and the mercs being slaughtered by Russian artillery. Stop the globohomo cash, and war stops and the cokehead midget gets the bullet.
You forgot to call the Ukrainians Nazis and accuse them of persecuting Russian-speakers in the east. Gotta hit all the Kremlin lies
If terms outlined in OP went through, I do not doubt Ukraine would be joining NATO before ink would dry on that treaty.
Of course, if Russia stood by its previous mistakes, it would presumably resume/ramp up its active attempts to disintegrate NATO and EU
Russia stating that they won’t oppose or interfere with Ukraine’s NATO membership is key to the whole agreement. Several posters have emphasized Russia’s unreliability, but it won’t matter so much if Ukraine is an official NATO member potentially with a U.S. base on its soil. Even with limits on troop numbers and heavy weapons, there’s plenty of support in Poland, Germany and other places. Russia couldn’t reasonably try again in the foreseeable future.
I understand why Ukraine wouldn’t want to lease Sevastopol Naval Base, but why wouldn’t Russia want it?
How's losing their Russian only warm port ever be considered a minior defeat? I'm not even considering the simbolic and cultural value Crimea holds for Russia, and the demographics. No way they leave without a fight, imho nukes themselves are on the table
That's not a "Russian port." It's a Ukrainian port. Russia has no rights to it. They can start behaving like grown up human beings and negotiate for access, and abide by the agreements. Completely separate topic from this thread, and something that happens after a lasting peace is negotiated and enforced.
Russia is denuclearized forever. So, that takes nukes off the table.
Read up on the Treaty of Versailles. Especially the text:
• https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles
The treaty has a lot of clauses and language that can be lifted and adapted. Historically, we now understand how it was flawed, and we can address those flaws. Also, many of the so-called "flaws" weren't in the language or intent, they were in the way the rest of the world behaved afterward, which violated the spirit & intent of many sections.
Those mistakes can be corrected and avoided. But, study the treaty is a base template for full reparations, war crime trials, return of territorial integrity, etc.
Then the war crimes trials post-World War II are the next template to be applied. Currently, Ukraine is investigating over 70,000 war crimes that have been committed, wit the help of law enforcement agencies from around the world. Those investigations will be continued and expanded, and fully resolved. There will be executions.
Precedent has been established, and will be followed. New precedent will be established as a message to anyone who ever attempts this sort of shit again.
gets a long-term lease of naval facilities in Sevastopol
imagine being stupid enough to agree to a Trojan Horse for a second time
>imagine being stupid enough to agree to a Trojan Horse for a second time
let them put their ships there then sink them all in port