Toggle-locked guns

Might be because Im german but I like toggle-guns. This design ahs been going around in my head for quite some time so i decided to bring it to "paper" and share it with someone.
It would be a toggle-delayed SMG.
>outwards facing toggles forces boltface, toggles and backblock to recoil together
>this increases mass and delays opening
>once the toggles have space to go all the way through the width of the bolt outwards, the recoil back with the boltface only
>this minimizes travel distance and recoil distance
>not pictured: springs inside the toggle joints would add more cushioning to recoil as well as impetus to the opening up of the toggles once the entire assembly reaches the back of the receiver
>since toggles go "through" the width of the bolt, this saves the outwards space the toggles need (unlike the furrer toggle-smg that has this huge bulge)
>all of this combines to minimize felt recoil and "stretch" it out, leading to a constant-recoil gun
>bonus feature: since the firing pin would go between the toggles, the moving together of the toggles would add an innate out-of-battery safety by disallowing the firing pin to go through
Has a system like this done before? What do you think?

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  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Kraut overengineering/10

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Looks pretty neat anon. I like the concept. Can't really form any opinions on it without at least a prototype, and I'm not a knowledgeable enough engineer to run the math on how such a thing would need to be set up. Pretty cool though!

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Manufacturing nightmare/10
    Good job, Bierhals.

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Looks like disassembly is going to be a b***h and a half

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If it's good enough for Super Earth it's good enough for me.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      super earth wishes it had an actually useful SMG apart from the defender, which is just a onehanded AR

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Toggle lock is for big guns, as dictated by the Ministry of Science, this is where the action shines.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I too like the autocannon, especially how the toggle goes out the top of the gun.
          Maybe thats why It is such smooth shooting

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Wait until you try the new mech. Double your fun, and then double again!

            That said, I'd kill for a version that has the guns from the HMG emplacement on it

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Cool idea anon.
    As others said, manufacture and maintenance would be greatly complicated compared to more conventional designs.
    Low recoil is the biggest advantage here, but recoil is not really an issue on today's pistol caliber smgs.
    I'd say it could be useful for future large caliber small automatic guns. Until then, it's a solution waiting for a problem.
    Still neat. Thank you for sharing.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I dont understand how this is a manufacturing nightmare?
    I know the receiver looks a bit wonky, but imagine if instead of being shaped like that, it was just a box with tracks milled or stamped into it.
    is that still so difficult?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It has a lot of critical dimensions, especially if you want interchangeable parts instead of handfitted boutique items.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I fail to see how that's different from any of the belt-fed LMGs that had similar track systems machined into the receivers.
        Why is everyone pretending like machining receivers is this impossible task as if theyre russians circa 1947?

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >that had similar track systems machined into the receivers
          The tracks were significantly less demanding tolerance-wise.
          Here you have what's essentially two headspacing conditions. In a MG-42 for example the headspace would be set by the roller recesses and rollers themselves, now you have four recesses and the toggles have to headspace correctly on two sides.

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You can make it work with just the roller parts obviously but yes, this would function. Try it. Very cool

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What good is the mechanism if the barrel and bolt aren't locked together? The instant pressure builds, the bolt starts moving. That is not a locking action.

    Either the barrel needs to reciprocate a short distance with the bolt like long recoil, or else the bolt needs to stay firmly locked to the (fixed) barrel for a duration of time, before then unlocking and moving. Your design does neither.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      it's a delayed, not a locked mechanism. What youre describing is a locked mechanism, but most pistol and early SMGs were neither locked nor delayed, the bolt is just heavy enough on its own to take longer to accelerate than the bullet needs to leave the barrel.
      Look at any WW1-WW2 SMG ever.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Then it's just blowback in which case all the complexity is for nothing at all.

        Roller delayed action is similar in the sense that the bolt is not locked to the barrel with rotating lugs. OPs concept is similar to the roller delayed concept, interesting but sadly with more moving and failure prone parts.

        Roller delayed is a misnomer as the bolt is physically locked into the barrel (or trunion) by the rollers, and the rollers are held in place by the locking piece. The bolt does move backwards more than a tiny fraction of a milimeter without the locking piece first moving out of the way of the rollers. That function is not present in OP's design; the bolt is immediately moving upon detonation. Nothing more than inertia and direct friction is keeping the bolt in place.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >it's just blowback
          No, it's delayed, learn to read.
          >for nothing at all
          Except for all the other advantages on top of slower opening. Can you read?
          >as the bolt is physically locked into barrel
          THEN IT'S NOT DELAYED, CAN YOU READ???

          Here's a simple test: if you cab open the bolt by pushing onto the boltface with a rod through the barrel, it's delayed or simple blowback. If this requires more force than just the recoil spring and inertia, it's delayed. It you cant and something else has to move first, then it's locked.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's not delayed because you say it is contrary to physics.

            If you pushed on the bolt through the barrel of OP's design, it would open. If you pushed on the bolt of an MP5 through the barrel for example, it would not open no matter how hard you press. Because you pressing on the bolt face does not move the locking piece.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >It's not delayed because you say it is contrary to physics.
              Wtf does that even mean?
              It is delayed because it isn't locked but there is a force resisting (not blocking but resisting) the immediate opening.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It means inertia is not a locking mechanism it's an operating principle.

                >If you pushed on the bolt of an MP5 through the barrel for example, it would not open no matter how hard you press. Because you pressing on the bolt face does not move the locking piece.
                Yes it would, that's exactly what the cartridge is doing when it fires, the bolt head itself moving rearwards is what forces the rollers out of the locking recess which is what accelerates the bolt carrier at a faster rate than the bolt head. The whole reason G3s have fluted chambers is because they begin extraction at higher pressures than any of the locked breach equivalents because it's a delay system.

                >If you pushed on the bolt of an MP5 through the barrel for example, it would not open no matter how hard you press. Because you pressing on the bolt face does not move the locking piece.
                Jesus christ, go look at a diagram on how the rdb system works before you go spouting bullshit like this. The entire system works specifically because of force exerted on the bolt which moves it rearward. If you have an sp5k or equivalent clone laying around, which I highly doubt since you sound like a noguns tourist, you can test this by sticking a pencil down the barrel and pushing it against a wall. With enough pressure on the bolt face you'll overcome the mechanical disadvantage of the system and the entire bcg will start moving.

                Wrong, it takes enormous abrupt force shifting the bolt a tiny amount to impart that momentum into the bolt carrier and that is what draws the locking piece out of the bolt, releasing the rollers. This is similar in principle to the way short recoil works, however instead of traveling with the bolt the barrel does not move. Short abrupt force gets the process moving, but the bolt does not continue to travel away from the barrel just from that force, it has to pause long enough for the rollers to disengage. This is roller delay. You cannot press an MP5 open through the muzzle by hand because you can't deliver enough force quickly enough to overcome the bolt carrier's inertia. HK roller locks have fluted chambers so that the bolt is able to move that tiny fraction without tearing the rim off a case, not because the case fully extracts immediately. It works similarly to a flapper delay in that way, which also has fluted chambers.

                OP's bolt would just push open with no more resistance than the spring is providing.

                Now it's your turn to post guns homosexuals.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >It means inertia is not a locking mechanism
                Nobody said it's a locking mechanism. Someone just said that inertia delays the opening of the bolt sufficiently for no further delaying or locking mechanism to be necessary.

                What you just described is a delayed mechanism, not a locked one. If you CAN open it with just pressure from the barrel, it's delayed. A locked system requires additional movement like a gas piston or direct impingement.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >If you CAN open it with just pressure from the barrel, it's delayed.
                So I guess short recoil and long recoil are delayed because if you push the barrel it pushes the slide/bolt back and unlocks the action huh?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Listen, if you have to somehow construe the semantics of "pressure from the barrel" into "pushing on the barrel" to make a point, you already lost.
                The MP5 is roller-delayed, not roller-locked. Stop trying to talk your way around that.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I am using your same stupid as frick logic of pushing with a pencil through the barrel, not shoving the crown of the barrel.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You literally just said pushing on the barrel.
                The MP5 is not roller-locked, it's roller-delayed.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >huh?
                Yuh, duh!
                Actually no, because that's not the pressure were talking about here.
                A locked breech gun is one where the breech cannot open by itself from the pressure inside the barrel. When youre pushing on the barrel, that is obviously not the same as the pressure in the barrel.
                Just shut the frick up already, youre dumb as hell.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You're right it's not which is why I wasn't arguing that it was. Don't stoop to straw mans because you thought you could shove an HK open with a pencil in the barrel when you can't.

                You literally just said pushing on the barrel.
                The MP5 is not roller-locked, it's roller-delayed.

                And as I said before roller delayed is a misnomer because the bolt is locked to the barrel.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >And as I said before roller delayed is a misnomer because the bolt is locked to the barrel.
                No it isnt. It's delayed because the bolt can move back on its own. The surfaces the rollers touch are angled, so it's difficult to push back, but not locked. The MP5 is roller-delayed.
                If it WAS locked (like for example the StG44, there would be an external force necessary to move the rollers into the recesses like with the slide on a pistol. What force is that?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You literally just said pushing on the barrel.
                The MP5 is not roller-locked, it's roller-delayed.

                I have noticed that neither one of you have posted your roller "delayed" HKs or attempted to open the action with a rod through the barrel. Why is that?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Because the homosexual in question already did:

                https://i.imgur.com/zWLmAQU.jpeg

                It means inertia is not a locking mechanism it's an operating principle.

                [...]
                [...]
                Wrong, it takes enormous abrupt force shifting the bolt a tiny amount to impart that momentum into the bolt carrier and that is what draws the locking piece out of the bolt, releasing the rollers. This is similar in principle to the way short recoil works, however instead of traveling with the bolt the barrel does not move. Short abrupt force gets the process moving, but the bolt does not continue to travel away from the barrel just from that force, it has to pause long enough for the rollers to disengage. This is roller delay. You cannot press an MP5 open through the muzzle by hand because you can't deliver enough force quickly enough to overcome the bolt carrier's inertia. HK roller locks have fluted chambers so that the bolt is able to move that tiny fraction without tearing the rim off a case, not because the case fully extracts immediately. It works similarly to a flapper delay in that way, which also has fluted chambers.

                OP's bolt would just push open with no more resistance than the spring is providing.

                Now it's your turn to post guns homosexuals.

                Confirms that although it requires some force, it is possible to pushed the bolt open with just pressure from the bolt face. That he thinks that somehow proves it's "Locked" is beyond me.
                If you can push a heavy door open, that means the door is not locked, now does it?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >OP's bolt would just push open with no more resistance than the spring is providing.
                Except for how OP clearly laid out that:
                >increased mass of the entire assembly moving together
                >mechanical disadvantage of the lever needed to be kinked inwards at a disadvantageous position
                >toggle needing force to be broken
                >the outwards kinked toggle preventing the immediate opening of the chamber
                >the back part literally needs to be pushed back by the straightening of the toggles before the front part can start moving, meaning pressure on the bolt face actually increases from behind
                It's not a LOCKED system, but that doesnt mean it is a straight blowback, which is what you said.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >If you pushed on the bolt of an MP5 through the barrel for example, it would not open no matter how hard you press. Because you pressing on the bolt face does not move the locking piece.
              Yes it would, that's exactly what the cartridge is doing when it fires, the bolt head itself moving rearwards is what forces the rollers out of the locking recess which is what accelerates the bolt carrier at a faster rate than the bolt head. The whole reason G3s have fluted chambers is because they begin extraction at higher pressures than any of the locked breach equivalents because it's a delay system.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >If you pushed on the bolt of an MP5 through the barrel for example, it would not open no matter how hard you press. Because you pressing on the bolt face does not move the locking piece.
              Jesus christ, go look at a diagram on how the rdb system works before you go spouting bullshit like this. The entire system works specifically because of force exerted on the bolt which moves it rearward. If you have an sp5k or equivalent clone laying around, which I highly doubt since you sound like a noguns tourist, you can test this by sticking a pencil down the barrel and pushing it against a wall. With enough pressure on the bolt face you'll overcome the mechanical disadvantage of the system and the entire bcg will start moving.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Roller delayed action is similar in the sense that the bolt is not locked to the barrel with rotating lugs. OPs concept is similar to the roller delayed concept, interesting but sadly with more moving and failure prone parts.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Herr Direktor Furrer already did the whole suite of togglelocks a century ago.

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The issue I see is that it's over engineered (Kraut's, amirite lmao). as of right now, the outward facing toggle against the receiver act as both a toggle and a lever due to mechanical disadvantage. Unless you for some reason want to create a DELAYED gun shooting a full powered cartridge, I dont see how that's necessary
    >get rid of space to make toggle kink outwards
    >make toggle joint wider than the toggle
    >toggle joint can now be broken inward by a simple pin or peg in the receiver as it travels backwards, initiating the second phase of movement
    >the receiver can keep the toggle straight and therefore the entire bolt assembly locked together on its own
    >simpler receiver, less mechanical disadvantage, smoother action, less parts
    >technically could do this with just one toggle as well if you use a guide rod on one side and a toggle on the other
    >guide rod could also act as recoil spring rod
    Hope this helps. Insane design,tho.

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    On firing (going from top left to top right diagram), the receiver "waist" engages the rear links partway up, increasing contact stresses. Better to allow clearance at this point, and have the engagement at or near the knuckle end of the links.

  13. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Neat. I feel like it's going to be a nightmare getting the geometry right to not jam especially in that completely folded position. To realistically manufacturer this you could have it made in two parts, one side with the grooves milled for the toggles and the other basically a lid. Weight might become an issue because the toggles are going to have to interface with steel for it to have any longevity. Maybe you could have rails mounted in extruded aluminum.

  14. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    based off your image, there doesn't appear to be a toggle, in it's state, if it locked, theres nothing to unlock it
    whats interfacing the toggles to unlock it?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Look between the first and second image where the sides of the receivers force the toggle to flip inward.
      I think based on how it's placed it would also act as a lever, adding mechanical disadvantage to the opening motion, so this would definitely be a strongly delayed action, for for a rifle cartridge, not just smg

  15. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why are Germans like this?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      God designed them to to live in the black forest, toying with clocks and trinkets

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      My german granddad came to the US as an engineer working for GM. He said
      "When the machine starts running, the american engineer's work is done and the German engineer's work begins."
      That's why NASA needed so many Germans.

  16. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >I like toggle-guns.
    pic related is Adolf Furrer, no, not your Adolf Führer, our Adolf. Adolf loved toggle locks like you wouldn't believe, thats why he made toggle locked canons.

  17. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Anyway I have to go to work, enjoy squirming your way out of the hole you two dug.

  18. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    I think about this video every time I use one of those machines. you gotta wonder what happens to your knees when they do that. will she ever walk again?

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