The problem with all "hypersonic" missiles is that they need to slow to low supersonic to maneuver, making them vulnerable to regular SAM systems. Even gliding at 5M+ is going to generate so much superhot plasma that any internal guidance system will be blind and radio won't work. And Russia can only get missiles going that fast with rocket boosters, not scram jets or gliding. It's not really the superweapon that it has been made out to be.
it is worth noting that some chinese scientist proposed an idea of taking a sheet of material and adjusting the charge on it in real time according to the plasma sheathe, allowing it to pick up signals.
I highly doubt they are capable of making it work, but the theory was interesting.
Some chink shill was on here a while back pretending that the THEORY being proposed meant that all chinese hypersonics magically worked with it now.
>" missiles is that they need to slow to low supersonic to maneuver,
More like: they quickly lose its kinetic energy with any maneuvering. The higher speed just makes it worse.
This BRICS shit will never make sense to me. Not just because it's a marketing gimmick made to fool dumb boomer investors by as Goldman-Sachs garden gnome, but because this supposed economic bloc makes no sense.
>Brazil: main exports are violent criminals and transsexual prostitutes >Russia: too corrupt to develop refinement industries for its own resources, is currently crumbling >India: Corrupt shithole even less trustworthy than the Chinese, who they fucking hate. >Chinese: Their name is a byword for "liar" and "badly-made." Hates the Indians. >South Africa: morons so dumb they somehow ran out of water.
: main exports are violent criminals and transsexual prostitutes
And beef, dairy, timber and a large number of cash crops.
: too corrupt to develop refinement industries for its own resources, is currently crumbling
The Russians not only make a lot of petroleum and natural gas products but control some real estate that will be increasingly important as the arctic has less and less ice as well as lots of suction in both central asia and eastern Europe. Or they did until about 15 months ago lol.
: Corrupt shithole even less trustworthy than the Chinese, who they fucking hate.
Too butthurt to side with the west; needs to side with SOMEBODY globally relevant to not look like a goober.
: Their name is a byword for "liar" and "badly-made." Hates the Indians.
BRICS is China's golden ticket to loot the absolute SHIT out of the developing world.
Africa: morons so dumb they somehow ran out of water
morons so dumb *and corrupt* that they're running out of water
But really the tl;dr is that it lines pockets and lets shitty countries feel important and gives them their own little kids table while the adults sit at the G7. Most of them don't even get along, much less like each other.
This BRICS shit will never make sense to me. Not just because it's a marketing gimmick made to fool dumb boomer investors by as Goldman-Sachs garden gnome, but because this supposed economic bloc makes no sense.
>Brazil: main exports are violent criminals and transsexual prostitutes >Russia: too corrupt to develop refinement industries for its own resources, is currently crumbling >India: Corrupt shithole even less trustworthy than the Chinese, who they fucking hate. >Chinese: Their name is a byword for "liar" and "badly-made." Hates the Indians. >South Africa: morons so dumb they somehow ran out of water.
South Africa has a surprisingly big defense industry, but then again that's all whiteys.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
1: Not true or all the white flight would have completely fucked it (Although ex-pats here describe it as completely fucked, but I think they're just doomers, evidently there is still some capacity there)
2: There is still stupid levels of demand for SA equipment across Africa, because SA shit worked well over the last forty years, and many African countries still want their old shit to work. SA works with thirdies all over the world for solutions though, and that legacy props up what seems to be a floundering industry not adequately supported by domestic product.
>The problem with all "hypersonic" missiles is that they need to slow to low supersonic to maneuver, making them vulnerable to regular SAM systems.
Not true in principle, but true in practice.
>And Russia can only get missiles going that fast with rocket boosters, not scram jets or gliding.
They CLAIM that Zircon is a scramjet but I'll believe it when I fucking see it and not a minute earlier. Gliding is also fake and gay.
>It's not really the superweapon that it has been made out to be.
No kidding.
Patriot is hard to move when deployed and has a loud search radar. so not too difficult to locate. But since there are only 2 of them in Ukraine, why would Russia not drop 3 or 4 Kinzhals on each site, they couldn't intercept that many at once. It's almost as if Russia doesn't actually have very many of them...
>why would Russia not drop 3 or 4 Kinzhals on each site, they couldn't intercept that many at once.
First: I have $100 that says that PATRIOT absolutely could. Assuming that the batteries were fully loaded at the time that's up to 16(!) PAC-3 CRIs, 12 PAC-3 MREs or 4 PAC-2 GEM-Ts EACH and given that the relevant statistics for PATRIOT are still classified (as far as I can tell; someone please feel free to prove me wrong) I wouldn't be surprised if each unit was perfectly capable of shredding an entire salvo. Second, I doubt that Russia even has the launch platforms for 6+ simultaneous Kinzhals. Third, if they tried it and PATRIOT won it would be a propaganda disaster. Russians are already butthurt about the Kinzhal shootdowns but as "isolated incidents" there's some plausible deniability there, having a significant portion of their remaining stock of super duper advanced hypersonic missiles get swatted down to no effect all at once by missile tech from the fucking 90s would be pretty hard to explain away.
>not scram jets or gliding
Zircon is scramjet and Avangard is a glide vehicle. Ukraine hasn't shot down Russia REAL hypersonic weapon yet
>Zircon is scramjet
Yeah, and it's set to show up in Ukraine at the same time as the Armatas lmao.
>and Avangard is a glide vehicle.
So fake and gay and not an actual hypersonic missile either.
>Ukraine hasn't shot down Russia REAL hypersonic weapon yet
Yeah, because they only exist on paper and in parades.
They're large stationary targets.
>They're large stationary targets.
And yet, sadly, the question is still valid.
You're generally correct about high speed maneuvers being more difficult the faster you are, unpowered gliders have to expend energy to pull off those feats. However the 5+ mach meme that blinds all weapons is nonsense. That's not to say that heat doesn't form and air doesn't ionize. Also, I'm not saying muh hypersonics are god tier superweapons because they aren't but the that blackout thing is inherently wrong and simplifies the complexities of hypersonic flight down to just one factor when in reality its extremely complex
Plasma sheath causing comms blackout is an issue but total loss typically happens at much higher speeds and is heavily dependent on other factors such as the glide body shape, specifically the nose cone, and altitude and temperature. For example the space shuttle experienced total blackout from around Mach 20 to just over Mach 10 or 11 during descent. The main issue hypersonic weapons suffer from is reliability of boosters/engines and materials and internal components that can withstand those speeds. Temperature is also a big factor of comms blackout and plasma sheathing. It can directly influence how different guidance systems perform in hypersonic flight. For example, longer wave bands can generally expect be lose signals at lower temperatures that shorter waves.
A typical X-band radar operating at 8-12 GHz won't be as affected by those conditions. Now that's not to say there's zero interference, however it is 100% impossible to calculate at what speed a hypersonic glider, MARV, hypersonic cruise missile or whatever will suffer from comms degradation without extensive knowledge of the vehicles shape, nose, and material make up as well as the altitude and expected speeds. Even then there are ways to mitigate those issues, most easily by nose cone shape. In fact it's even theoretically possible to guide hypersonic weapons optically with extensive cooling etc.
Plasma sheath stealth is a meme that only brainlets believe in. It's very dependent on the temperature of the missile body. The Zircon (if real), for example, reaches ~4000 Kelvin at altitude and speed. At 4000 Kelvin, plasma shield can block 1 Ghz and lower but SPY-1 operates at S band: 2-4 Ghz, APG-81 and APG-79 operate at X band: 8-12 Ghz, SPY-6 operates at S/X band: 2-4 Ghz and 8-12 Ghz, SPY-3 operates at 8-12 Ghz, MPQ-53 operates at C band: 4-8 Ghz, AIM-120 and SM-6 seeker operates in I/J band: 8-20 Ghz. All of them are higher than 1 Ghz, so the plasma shield is useless. Zircon can fly Mach 9 at 30 km altitude, doesn't mean it can do the same at 1 km altitude. Depending on the materials in which the body is made of, if they're using passive, active, or ablative cooling, etc. Plasma is an easy problem to solve. Also, space based IR sensors can, and do, track hypersonic missiles of all types.
>Even then there are ways to mitigate those issues, most easily by nose cone shape.
You can use magnetic antenna, and chemical/water injection to suppress plasma, too. >In fact it's even theoretically possible to guide hypersonic weapons optically with extensive cooling etc.
The US did this with HEDI during the 90s. A cryogenically cooled IR seeker window to guide the hit-to-kill vehicle into the warhead. Over all, good post. I've been sperging about muh plasma for years.
They actually continued development of Sprint with the High Endoatmospheric Defense Interceptor (HEDI) missile. HEDI was a modified Sprint that took the HOE KKV, shrunk it, added a cryogenically cooled seeker window, and added it to the Sprint to make it a hit-to-kill interceptor.
>Report on HEDI:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA210006.pdf
>>HEDI KITE tests:
>Report on HEDI's cryogenically cooled seeker window:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA386555.pdf
>Cryogenic cooling of the HEDI KITE seeker.
Go to 25 minute mark and watch to see it.
Targeting a system designed to kill ballistic missiles with a ballistic missile. They actually thought they had unbeatable hypersonics, no wonder the seething was off the charts
Well, either the reporter is full of shit, or it was probably headed right for them, and they figured that was what they were aiming for.
After all, when the HIMARs started making their joke of a logistical system into even more of a joke, they deliberately targeted that as well.
emissions, and the radar takes a good bit to pack up. cruise missile wave to fix it and then kinz to try to snipe it. hopefully they'll just give up after this lol
Patriot is hard to move when deployed and has a loud search radar. so not too difficult to locate. But since there are only 2 of them in Ukraine, why would Russia not drop 3 or 4 Kinzhals on each site, they couldn't intercept that many at once. It's almost as if Russia doesn't actually have very many of them...
>why would Russia not drop 3 or 4 Kinzhals on each site
With what, exactly? They don't have enough missiles, not MiG-31Ms in working condition to sortie 3-8 at a time. They shot one because that's all they can afford in missile resources, and flyable MiG-31Ms.
>This is the way the multipolar world ends
This is the way the multipolar world ends >This is the way the multipolar world ends
With a bang, as your most "cutting edge" weapons are blown out of the sky by American hand-me-downs.
thats bullshit but i believe it
The problem with all "hypersonic" missiles is that they need to slow to low supersonic to maneuver, making them vulnerable to regular SAM systems. Even gliding at 5M+ is going to generate so much superhot plasma that any internal guidance system will be blind and radio won't work. And Russia can only get missiles going that fast with rocket boosters, not scram jets or gliding. It's not really the superweapon that it has been made out to be.
it is worth noting that some chinese scientist proposed an idea of taking a sheet of material and adjusting the charge on it in real time according to the plasma sheathe, allowing it to pick up signals.
I highly doubt they are capable of making it work, but the theory was interesting.
Some chink shill was on here a while back pretending that the THEORY being proposed meant that all chinese hypersonics magically worked with it now.
It was the Russians making it out as an unstoppable wunderwaffe capable of wiping out dozens of NATO generals 100m underground at one blow.
>" missiles is that they need to slow to low supersonic to maneuver,
More like: they quickly lose its kinetic energy with any maneuvering. The higher speed just makes it worse.
>It's not really the superweapon that it has been made out to be.
I gotta admit, C.H.U.D.S hyping it up for months gaslit me. But pride comes before the fall...
This BRICS shit will never make sense to me. Not just because it's a marketing gimmick made to fool dumb boomer investors by as Goldman-Sachs garden gnome, but because this supposed economic bloc makes no sense.
>Brazil: main exports are violent criminals and transsexual prostitutes
>Russia: too corrupt to develop refinement industries for its own resources, is currently crumbling
>India: Corrupt shithole even less trustworthy than the Chinese, who they fucking hate.
>Chinese: Their name is a byword for "liar" and "badly-made." Hates the Indians.
>South Africa: morons so dumb they somehow ran out of water.
BRICS is a G7 rip-off.
> economic bloc
Not even a bloc, no real cooperation and most of them have no free trade agreement with another member.
>marketing gimmick
That.
Keep in mind that it was invented in 2006, when people thought Brazil and Russia still had a future.
: main exports are violent criminals and transsexual prostitutes
And beef, dairy, timber and a large number of cash crops.
: too corrupt to develop refinement industries for its own resources, is currently crumbling
The Russians not only make a lot of petroleum and natural gas products but control some real estate that will be increasingly important as the arctic has less and less ice as well as lots of suction in both central asia and eastern Europe. Or they did until about 15 months ago lol.
: Corrupt shithole even less trustworthy than the Chinese, who they fucking hate.
Too butthurt to side with the west; needs to side with SOMEBODY globally relevant to not look like a goober.
: Their name is a byword for "liar" and "badly-made." Hates the Indians.
BRICS is China's golden ticket to loot the absolute SHIT out of the developing world.
Africa: morons so dumb they somehow ran out of water
morons so dumb *and corrupt* that they're running out of water
But really the tl;dr is that it lines pockets and lets shitty countries feel important and gives them their own little kids table while the adults sit at the G7. Most of them don't even get along, much less like each other.
South Africa has a surprisingly big defense industry, but then again that's all whiteys.
1: Not true or all the white flight would have completely fucked it (Although ex-pats here describe it as completely fucked, but I think they're just doomers, evidently there is still some capacity there)
2: There is still stupid levels of demand for SA equipment across Africa, because SA shit worked well over the last forty years, and many African countries still want their old shit to work. SA works with thirdies all over the world for solutions though, and that legacy props up what seems to be a floundering industry not adequately supported by domestic product.
BRICS= Broke Retards In need of Chinese Support
>not scram jets or gliding
Zircon is scramjet and Avangard is a glide vehicle. Ukraine hasn't shot down Russia REAL hypersonic weapon yet
There it is, Khinzhal is now no longer hypersonic.
Kinzhal was never hypersonic. it's just an air-launched ballistic missile
We know. Please inform Russian MoD of your realization.
>He still thinks the Zircon is real
>The problem with all "hypersonic" missiles is that they need to slow to low supersonic to maneuver, making them vulnerable to regular SAM systems.
Not true in principle, but true in practice.
>And Russia can only get missiles going that fast with rocket boosters, not scram jets or gliding.
They CLAIM that Zircon is a scramjet but I'll believe it when I fucking see it and not a minute earlier. Gliding is also fake and gay.
>It's not really the superweapon that it has been made out to be.
No kidding.
>why would Russia not drop 3 or 4 Kinzhals on each site, they couldn't intercept that many at once.
First: I have $100 that says that PATRIOT absolutely could. Assuming that the batteries were fully loaded at the time that's up to 16(!) PAC-3 CRIs, 12 PAC-3 MREs or 4 PAC-2 GEM-Ts EACH and given that the relevant statistics for PATRIOT are still classified (as far as I can tell; someone please feel free to prove me wrong) I wouldn't be surprised if each unit was perfectly capable of shredding an entire salvo. Second, I doubt that Russia even has the launch platforms for 6+ simultaneous Kinzhals. Third, if they tried it and PATRIOT won it would be a propaganda disaster. Russians are already butthurt about the Kinzhal shootdowns but as "isolated incidents" there's some plausible deniability there, having a significant portion of their remaining stock of super duper advanced hypersonic missiles get swatted down to no effect all at once by missile tech from the fucking 90s would be pretty hard to explain away.
>Zircon is scramjet
Yeah, and it's set to show up in Ukraine at the same time as the Armatas lmao.
>and Avangard is a glide vehicle.
So fake and gay and not an actual hypersonic missile either.
>Ukraine hasn't shot down Russia REAL hypersonic weapon yet
Yeah, because they only exist on paper and in parades.
>They're large stationary targets.
And yet, sadly, the question is still valid.
You're generally correct about high speed maneuvers being more difficult the faster you are, unpowered gliders have to expend energy to pull off those feats. However the 5+ mach meme that blinds all weapons is nonsense. That's not to say that heat doesn't form and air doesn't ionize. Also, I'm not saying muh hypersonics are god tier superweapons because they aren't but the that blackout thing is inherently wrong and simplifies the complexities of hypersonic flight down to just one factor when in reality its extremely complex
Plasma sheath causing comms blackout is an issue but total loss typically happens at much higher speeds and is heavily dependent on other factors such as the glide body shape, specifically the nose cone, and altitude and temperature. For example the space shuttle experienced total blackout from around Mach 20 to just over Mach 10 or 11 during descent. The main issue hypersonic weapons suffer from is reliability of boosters/engines and materials and internal components that can withstand those speeds. Temperature is also a big factor of comms blackout and plasma sheathing. It can directly influence how different guidance systems perform in hypersonic flight. For example, longer wave bands can generally expect be lose signals at lower temperatures that shorter waves.
A typical X-band radar operating at 8-12 GHz won't be as affected by those conditions. Now that's not to say there's zero interference, however it is 100% impossible to calculate at what speed a hypersonic glider, MARV, hypersonic cruise missile or whatever will suffer from comms degradation without extensive knowledge of the vehicles shape, nose, and material make up as well as the altitude and expected speeds. Even then there are ways to mitigate those issues, most easily by nose cone shape. In fact it's even theoretically possible to guide hypersonic weapons optically with extensive cooling etc.
Plasma sheath stealth is a meme that only brainlets believe in. It's very dependent on the temperature of the missile body. The Zircon (if real), for example, reaches ~4000 Kelvin at altitude and speed. At 4000 Kelvin, plasma shield can block 1 Ghz and lower but SPY-1 operates at S band: 2-4 Ghz, APG-81 and APG-79 operate at X band: 8-12 Ghz, SPY-6 operates at S/X band: 2-4 Ghz and 8-12 Ghz, SPY-3 operates at 8-12 Ghz, MPQ-53 operates at C band: 4-8 Ghz, AIM-120 and SM-6 seeker operates in I/J band: 8-20 Ghz. All of them are higher than 1 Ghz, so the plasma shield is useless. Zircon can fly Mach 9 at 30 km altitude, doesn't mean it can do the same at 1 km altitude. Depending on the materials in which the body is made of, if they're using passive, active, or ablative cooling, etc. Plasma is an easy problem to solve. Also, space based IR sensors can, and do, track hypersonic missiles of all types.
>Even then there are ways to mitigate those issues, most easily by nose cone shape.
You can use magnetic antenna, and chemical/water injection to suppress plasma, too.
>In fact it's even theoretically possible to guide hypersonic weapons optically with extensive cooling etc.
The US did this with HEDI during the 90s. A cryogenically cooled IR seeker window to guide the hit-to-kill vehicle into the warhead. Over all, good post. I've been sperging about muh plasma for years.
They actually continued development of Sprint with the High Endoatmospheric Defense Interceptor (HEDI) missile. HEDI was a modified Sprint that took the HOE KKV, shrunk it, added a cryogenically cooled seeker window, and added it to the Sprint to make it a hit-to-kill interceptor.
>Report on HEDI:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA210006.pdf
>>HEDI KITE tests:
>Report on HEDI's cryogenically cooled seeker window:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA386555.pdf
>Cryogenic cooling of the HEDI KITE seeker.
Go to 25 minute mark and watch to see it.
according to the sources they did use multiple Patriot missiles to take it down
Targeting a system designed to kill ballistic missiles with a ballistic missile. They actually thought they had unbeatable hypersonics, no wonder the seething was off the charts
how did they know where the patriots were?
Well, either the reporter is full of shit, or it was probably headed right for them, and they figured that was what they were aiming for.
After all, when the HIMARs started making their joke of a logistical system into even more of a joke, they deliberately targeted that as well.
emissions, and the radar takes a good bit to pack up. cruise missile wave to fix it and then kinz to try to snipe it. hopefully they'll just give up after this lol
Ah, now the small cruise missile waves make some sense. Some kind of shitty SEAD attempt?
Patriot is hard to move when deployed and has a loud search radar. so not too difficult to locate. But since there are only 2 of them in Ukraine, why would Russia not drop 3 or 4 Kinzhals on each site, they couldn't intercept that many at once. It's almost as if Russia doesn't actually have very many of them...
>why would Russia not drop 3 or 4 Kinzhals on each site
because Kinzhals are impossible to intercept
>why would Russia not drop 3 or 4 Kinzhals on each site
With what, exactly? They don't have enough missiles, not MiG-31Ms in working condition to sortie 3-8 at a time. They shot one because that's all they can afford in missile resources, and flyable MiG-31Ms.
By knowing where they weren't
They're large stationary targets.
>This is the way the multipolar world ends
This is the way the multipolar world ends
>This is the way the multipolar world ends
With a bang, as your most "cutting edge" weapons are blown out of the sky by American hand-me-downs.
Why won't russia launch like 70 hypersonic missiles to destroy that Patriot, if it's that important?
>Why won't russia launch like 70 hypersonic missiles to destroy that Patriot
You know why