The pistol cartridge debate ended in 1983. Everything before and after that was a mistake.
Fite me. 10mm Auto is the single perfect pistol round.
>Small enough diameter to allow large capacity mags without getting too bulky.
>Large enough to have a serious expanded diameter using hollow points.
>Laser-like trajectory
>Incredible energy retention even at distances too far for serious pistol usage.
>Managable recoil even in small framed handguns if you just train enough
>factory loads are milquetoast and mildly loaded
>40cpr in bulk
meme caliber
It's your problem if you only buy weakling factory loads. It sure ain't 10mm's fault.
>40cpr in bulk
If more people would use their brains and buy 10mm companies would have to make much more reducing the prices.
cope
>companies continue producing the same quantities but prices raise because of the influx of new buyers
More companies spring up because some chucklefuck was sick of not finding any on the store shelves and the rest companies are forced to reduce prices due to more competition
(Or lobby for ammo production regulation to close the market off to themselves)
>If more people would use their brains and buy 10mm companies would have to make much more reducing the prices
>if only reality fit my meme
Ftfy.
good things tend to cost a little more than inferior products
That's fine. Preferable, even. The best part of 10 mm is the versatility, you can get the full power stuff if you want, but even the subsonic stuff is heavy enough to do work.
Also the glocks shoot .40 without a conversion barrel.
i don't see how Buffalo Bore is anything but screamingly hot
>milquetoast
probably need to get your nose further up your ass
I just wanna defend myself from black bears for God's sake
9mm is plenty for Black Bears, its enough for most Grizzlies and you can easily drop any land animal in North America with hardcast 9mm if you can aim, which you likely can do better with 9 anyways over 10mm.
9mm fags are truly the Honda tuners of the gun world
>It's just as good
>Good enough
>VTEC's better than any V8 or turbo
Your round is a jack of all trades, master of none. And you cannot accept the fact, that there are people who want other things in a cartridge.
Sure, 10mm kicks harder which makes follow-on shots more difficult. But you trade less recoil for much more power while retaining more or less the same mag capacity.
Just get it into your stupid heads: Not everybody wants a fucking Honda/Volkswaggon round.
You latte sipping IPA chugging hipsters, modern 9mm works just fine.
>modern 9mm works just fine
Yeah but I’d rather invite less scrutiny by stopping a threat in 5 shots rather than 10 now that every defensive shooting gets Monday morning quarterbacked by YouTube gays like that ASP guy. Anyone have the webm of pic related? The customer magdumped into the robber, but was forced to deliver a coup de grace to stop the threat. Both the FBI and NATO wanted to replace 9mm for a reason.
>Yeah but Im a scared notraining bitch who cant hit paper at 20 feet
10mm wont save you.
>cant hit paper at 20 feet
Funny because punching holes in cardboard is all 9mm excels at. Wouldn’t someone with no training be advocating for the easiest cartridge to shoot? 9mm is popular because even the lowest IQ enlisted tard can become proficient with it in 30 minutes of training.
Exactly why if you cant get cns hits with 9 you wont with 10mm.
The smart thing to do is train with 9mm 90% of the time to save money and work on muscle memory and other fundamentals, then train with 10mm the other 10% of the time to work on recoil management if you're gonna carry it. You guys are just coping by saying that 10mmfags can't shoot when 10mm owners are enthusiasts who probably represent less than 1% of people who own guns. The majority of people who carry 9mm are just normalfags who shoot a box of ammo each month if that.
Thats not how it works or else people would train with cowboy loads
I mean they basically do since most fags always just bought the cheapest underpowered steelcase vatnik ammo until fairly recently. Training with 38spl and carrying 357mag has been a thing forever. Or is this /arg/ where every anon claims to train with black hills mk262? 10mm owners can even train with 40Sneed&Weed in the same gun if you really think 9mm isn't applicable.
Why would it be magically different for 10mm users? Your entire argument makes 10mm sound like a worse 9mm because its more expensive to train with and has underpowered ttaining load problems too. Way easier to shoot hundreds of NATO pissin hot 9mm than murderfucker 10mm loads.
What I'm saying is you train with the cheaper cartridge most of the time and carry the hotter, more expensive cartridge for defense.
And 9mm is cheaper to train with on both the cheap and good stuff AND it has comparable defensive use results to 10mm. 10mm is a round for hipsters and is a worse compromise than 9mm.
>And 9mm is cheaper to train with on both the cheap and good stuff
Yeah this is why everyone trains with 9mm most of the time. Nobody is arguing otherwise.
>AND it has comparable defensive use results to 10mm
And 380 has comparable defensive use results to 9mm.
>10mm is a round for hipsters
Ok sure
>and is a worse compromise than 9mm.
You're not compromising that much between 9mm and 10mm if you're carrying a fullsize.
.380 has expansion problems out of a lot of pistols its chambered in, its also not very often used in fullsize guns. Additionally you are taking on a lot more mass and size with a full size 10mm, it outright needs a bigger frame. 9mm is simply a smarter choice for most, 10mm is for tactical boomers innawoods who havent shot a gun since 2002 and hipsters who jerk off over footpoundage in anemic rounds.
>10mm owners are enthusiasts who probably represent less than 1% of people who own guns
They're like ricers who spend the most money on the latest meta CPU cooler that is 2% more effective than the next thing in line, and then keep posting their RGB "build" jerking each other off, but in reality they just use their shit as facebook machines 99% of the time.
The vast majority of them don't even have 5k through their 10mm carry pieces.
It's like the vegan joke: you don't need to ask, they'll tell you.
The likelihood of you encountering a vest that would stop 9mm but get penetrated by 10mm is probably slimmer than you getting sex without paying for it.
The most likely body armor youll face will stop all but the big bore magnums or super fast sub 10mm calibers. Its retarded to argue for 20mm with that notion.
That's my point, the only thing that would let 10mm through while stopping 9mm will be some really fucking busted / cutting it close lvl II, and the remaining kinetic energy will probably be abysmal even then.
>but in reality they just use their shit as facebook machines 99% of the time.
This is 99% of gun owners period since neither (You) nor I have ever been in a gunfight.
>The vast majority of them don't even have 5k through their 10mm carry pieces.
This is also 99% of gun owners who aren't compfags lol
Are you the average shooter? If so why the fuck are you carrying 10mm?
If you don't have 5k through your carry piece then either you change your carry guns quite often, you're very young/new to shooting, or are a basement dweller / larper.
5k is 50 rounds shot less often than every two weeks spread over 4 years, Anon.
>9mm is popular because even the lowest IQ enlisted tard can become proficient with it in 30 minutes of training.
Incorrect. 9mm is popular because it's cheap to train with in bulk.
Most 10mm fags barely ever shoot their 10mms, they're like larperators with pristine gucci carriers and rifles that are exclusively for flexing and taking pics of.
"I carry 10mm" is a fashion statement and call for attention as evidenced by this thread.
Literally no other service handgun round would perform perceptibly differently with the same shot placement and if you think otherwise you drank too much of the koolaid.
There are numerous cases of .45 working just as bad when the dude was high and the shot placement sucked.
The only time handguns rapidly incapacitate is when
>CNS is hit
>large leg joints (hip, knee) are hit
>target is low motivated, sober, and/or moron and therefore susceptible to the psychological effect of getting shot
Otherwise you just have to pump the guy full of lead until either a/b happens, or the guy's blood pressure drops enough for him to lose control of his own motor functions.
The only handgun rounds that offer a real difference in terminal performance are big revolver magnums used for hunting.
>There are numerous cases of .45 working just as bad when the dude was high and the shot placement sucked.
We're not talking about 45 though. Both 45 and 9mm are dinosaur cartridges.
>The only handgun rounds that offer a real difference in terminal performance are big revolver magnums used for hunting.
Yes and 10mm is designed to exceed 357mag.
.357 is not a big revolver magnum you tard, it's a 9mm on meth.
10mm does not exceed 357 Mag.
A 180gr Jacketed 10mm is just about at its peak at 1350fps in a 5 inch barrel, advantage of being closed breech too.
A 180gr jacketed bullet in 357 Mag will reach 1500fps in a 6 inch barrel, from a GP100 revolver.
Your 10mm is not meeting, let alone exceeding, 357 Mag on any planet.
You dump more than 3 rounds of any caliber in somebody and a prosecutor will have a jury convinced that you were trigger happy and itching to kill somebody
Perfect argument for carrying 500 Short&Weak Magnum.
Nice fuddlore retard.
What's next, carrying FMJ to avoid getting slapped with premediated murder?
>modern 9mm works just fine.
Just as I wrote here
huh?
>Just as good
>Good enough
>Just fine
What a wonderful world it would be if every gun was only available in 9mm, 223 and nothing else, huh?
>What does that power do besides make you feel smug?
It gives me the knowledge that even an attacker wearing a vest, behind glass or hilding his arms up will have a high probability of goind down as long as I'm able to hit him.
You asked me the same shit anti-gunners ask dudes like you and me
>Hurr what does your gun do beside make you feel smug?
Get it bro?
10mm might be overkill for 99% of situations. But so are guns who got more than 5 rounds inside. It's the 1% of situations I want to be prepared for because I don't wanna stand there with my thumb up my butt.
You dont shoot often do you? You come off as insecure in your abilities and like you're coping with consumerism. Buying 10mm doesnt make you a better shot you dork.
>I don't wanna stand there with my thumb up my butt.
Yes, you do. You really do.
>But muh robber with an old shitty kevlar vest
You are just as likely to encounter IV plates if not more retard.
What does that power do besides make you feel smug? It certainly doesnt translate statistically into being more succesful.
All service handgun rounds are mediocre and have very little difference in real life performance.
This means the only logical conclusion is to buy the one that's cheapest to stock up on and train with, i.e. 9x19.
Sorry not sorry.
>t. owns handguns in 7 different calibers
>train with 9mm 90% of the time
>carry 10mm and train with it 10% of the time
Wow that was hard. You can even buy nearly identical guns in the two calibers like a Glock 17 and Glock 20 if you're going to be that hung up on training.
Did you miss the part where there's no practical difference in their performance?
They're handgun rounds. They suck at incapacitating people unless you get a good CNS hit. You magdump until they drop.
But if you want to feel special for carrying an autism round that does nothing 9mm doesn't, be my guest.
Three threads, two by OP and one by your invasion.
That doesn't seem desperate at all.
>blocks your path
Can't make the FBI pistol caliber standards, consistently penetrates under 12", hollowpoint ammunition can't be used as only ~1/5 expand and that's in gelatin. This is not a good all around duty round, deflects like shit on light cover like car doors and windshields too. It simple lacks the mass to follow through.
I think Ft. Hood shooting After Action Report speaks for itself. So many soldiers dead and injured in 10 minutes that they initially believed it was three shooters.
What the fuck do you mean 'consistently penetrates under 12"' when even shitty 40gr VMAX stuff penetrates 14+ inches with a 10" expansion cavity? You don't understand velocity or cavitation, do you?
>Deflects on car doors
LMAO not unless it's up armored. 5.7 rolls through cars readily. It's a great urban round unless you're punching through concrete which you aren't.
How much better is the 5.7 compared to the 4.6? I heard the 4.6 is shit
I've heard that 4.6 AP outperforms 5.7 AP.
Not that that really matters for us poor peasants.
well HK cancelled the UCP that was supposed to accompany the MP7 because of how 4.6 underperformed in the pistol.
Literally shittier than .22 magnum.
It needs a big frame gun and that recoil is stout. Not good for concealed carry where you want a smaller gun. Any application where you can carry a bigger gun fuck yeah, best auto pistol cartridge. Fuck bears, fuck women, fuck wristlet sois.
how bout .45 super
.357 Maximum.
I'm using Scott Norton, because he's the only Human Being that scares me.
>10 millimemer
Ayyo fuk u niggy
Yeah 10mm is so good that is why they went so far as making a new cartridge and then abandoning that too and went back to 9mm
They cucked it down to fit smaller frames and dampen the recoil a bit. But .40 is only 3mm shorter of a case length than 10mm. 10mm use bigger guns with greater chamber support though so you can feed it hotter rounds. .40 was in fact, and still is, better than 9mm. But only by 10-20% depending on the load. They ditched it due to cost and cucks/women not being able to qualify, same reason they had to ditch 10mm. Soon they'll ditch 9mm when the little 5'3" 300lb Mexican cleaning ladies they now hire to be cops can't qualify with them. Doesn't mean whatever they adopt is better, they're literally and admittedly doing it so more warm bodies can qualify and due to cost for training ammo as well.
Everything you said is accurate, but the whole reason 10mm was even made was because FBI agents using revolvers struggled to win a gunfight with two bank robbers using semiautos. The real thing was realizing that trying to reload a revolver while your hands are slick with blood is harder than reloading a semiauto.
They wanted something that would go through an arm and still enter the torso with enough penetration power to hit vitals. 9mm doesn't do that, .40 idk but it's supposed to have better penetration than 9. I personally know and officer who was shot with 5.7 through the arm, passed through and hit his vest with enough force to bruise him. Not sure if it would have hit vitals, they do pretty shit on penetration tests so it likely just icepicked through since it wasn't hollowpoint.
Miami Dade had multiple agents with semi auto pistols.
That is literally not what happened, imbecile
Mexicans eem to handle 9mm well enough to kill each other.
I'm sure they'll continue using it in the FBI.
You used the wrong picture mate.
>won't even go through IIIA out of a pistol length barrel
>terminal ballistics of .32 ACP
What are you talking about, a tokarev will go through soft armor 80% of the time. It has almost the same energy as 10mm auto with a much smaller bullet, it's going to have more penetration. No straight walled non necked cartridge will ever be as good as a similar one that is necked.
Soft armor is a broad fucking category, I specifically said IIIA which a Tok won't do unless shot out of a carbine length barrel.
Source: I tried.
Here is ian penetrating IIIA with a tokarev.
?t=196
What did you try?
New IIIA police vests against Czechoslovak 7.62x25 out of a 52 and a Tok. None made it through.
Then we put them in a PPSh and they did.
Can't watch vids right now, is he using a rigid backstop or a phased out vest? That could explain it.
Polish surplus against some pine board with a vest lent against it. Fun fact: The fact that the smallest round expected during operations in Black Hawk Down was 7.62tok meant that they said screw the tin-pots we'll just wear skateboard bump helmets because you're going to get domed anyways.
Modern helmets with kevlar inserts are much better nowadays.
Rimless 7.65x17 (.32 ACP) would be the best pistol round.
>Low recoil
>works well in straight blowback without needing a fuckhuge slide
>Can be used in super small pocket pistols
>20 round flush fit mags in full size pistols
>Suppresses really well due to low pressure and small bore diameter, also doesn't cause excessive back pressure in suppressed blowback pistols like .380 does.
>Easy to make integrally suppressed pistols in with fixed barrel and straight blowback.
If you want pistols rounds to be anything other than low recoil, easily suppressable, cheap to make and cheap to make guns in, then you're barking up the wrong tree
That's pretty much 30 SC
I thought 30 SneedChuck was pretty much dead in the water.
Yeah and they were 9mm. The FBI already determined that 10mm was better than 9mm after Miami-Dade, but it happened at the wrong time politically due to women starting to fill the ranks and more media scrutiny around LEO shootings of black criminals. This writeup details the politically incorrect history of 10mm:
>https://10mmautocombat.wordpress.com/10mm-auto-the-bridge-between-revolver-and-automatic/
tl;dr 10mm becomes ideal when you need to shoot mobs of larger criminals from further away. It also allows someone with an autoloading pistol or compact PDW a better chance againt a criminal armed with a bigger gun like an AR or AK. 10mm also represents the upper limit in a practical cartridge for an autoloading pistol without going up to something like 460 Rowland that requires a compensator or 50 AE that requires an xboxhueg deagle. While some of that article may be questionable, there's no doubt that American men have become larger in stature and BMI since 1901 when 9mm was developed:
>https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/26/health/human-height-changes-century/index.html
Tell me how 10mm would have been superior when the issues of Miami Dade were training based?
>training based
Most of the FBI agents involved were using 38 special revolvers, so they were outgunned by Matix and Platt who were armed with a Mini-14 and a pump shotgun. 10mm gives you the capacity and ease of reloading of a semi-auto with the power of a magnum revolver.
You're still dealing with the problem that you're out fucking gunned.
Yeah but the point is that 10mm bridges the gap between a handgun and a semi-auto rifle like an AR better than 9mm.
The perps were shot six and twelve times each according to wikipedia. If you can't see the advantages of marrying autoloader capacity with 357 magnum power, then I don't know what to tell you.
None of the shots that hit were immediately incapacitating, other than the one 9mm hollow point that failed to penetrate deep enough to hit the heart in a lateral through the arm shot, 10mm wouldn’t have fixed anything. Shot placement is the only thing that fucking matters, it doesn’t matter if they have .44 magnums if they couldn’t hit their shots.
Some of those shots were when multiple agents were already dead, the shotgun guy with only one arm hit him in the leg as he was getting into the car.
You don’t own a 10mm I bet or any guns.
>You don’t own a 10mm I bet or any guns.
I was gonna buy a 10mm but I went with 460 Rowland for meme power.
Real 10mm (not downloaded plinking spec 10mm) has more muzzle energy and can reach out further than 9mm and 45 ACP. That's just a fact. That's what I meant when I said it bridges the gap between a handgun and an AR, especially nowadays when we have red dot optics on everything. 7.5 FK and 5.7x28 kind of fill the same niche.
>I was gonna buy a 10mm but I went with 460 Rowland for meme power.
moron you don't own shit, shut the fuck up
not that other guy, but I've got 460 rowland and multiple 10mm pistols and rifles, why wouldn't that guy "own shit"?
PrepHole is full of poorfags who can't accept that some gun owners on the same website have things nicer than PSA budget slop. Case in point: PrepHole hated 5.7 for years until PSA and Ruger made cheap pistols for it. Now anons think the best thing since sliced bread.
Its called availability
The advantages of 5.7 were not worth the price of the five-seven combined with its ammo
Since pistol prices and ammo prices have come down, its easier to recommend
>lmao poorfag
Is a retarded argument because not everyone is rich, but everyone should be armed
That's true, but 5.7 ammo is still expensive, and the cope for years was that it's actually just overpriced 22 mag. A gun is a one-time purchase whereas the ammo is something you would (at least theoretically) purchase over and over again. The average PrepHole user is older than we were 10 years ago when this was the SKS+nugget board, and there are plenty of anons who own nice guns now. 10mm itself isn't even expensive to get into now that even Hipoint of all companies sells guns for it.
1cm and 5.7 do exist in the same space of "ammo is expensive and pistols are less common" but the difference is 5.7 is still coming down. 10mm will probably always be expensive because of materials
Tbh though, both cabilers are fine and have their place, but your average consumer doesnt need one and it shouldn't be their only pistol
And yet OP still hasn't posted evidence of actually owning anything despite saying he would...yesterday. Perhaps you are projecting and defending an anon others were finding suspect?
I'm not OP, and I'll be honest that I forgot I was supposed to post my 460 until I arrived at work this morning. So yes I'm a gay moron, but there's at least one other anon I've seen post his 460 here. I had the conversion done on an FDE FNX fwiw. Still need to get a red dot for it though.
>I went with 460 Rowland for meme power.
Post it
At work right now, but I'll post it tonight if the thread is still up.
Still haven't posted it
Ok anon here it is. Turnaround was about one month after I FedEx’d them my upper and two mags. Still trying to decide if I want an RMR or Holosneed for it.
What shot in particular do you claim would have been better if it was 10mm?
Hell no it doesn't. Not even close. I don't know what kind of vidyea tier logic you're using, but for all intents and purposes, a 5.56 makes a 9mm and a 10mm look like the same shit, relatively speaking. 10mm is nowhere in between an intermediate rifle round and 9mm. IT'S STILL A PISTOL CARTRIDGE. It's BARELY better than 9mm. Check out weight, energy, fps, etc of 10mm and compare it to 9mm, check out the gel tests, the expansion, penetration, etc.
9mm allows for better less boxy grip sizes, better recoil control, and more capacity. I'd rather have ALL those things over a round that's a little harder to shoot but offers a little better expansion. No matter how good of a shooter one is, the fact of the matter is even if you're pretty good with a 10mm you'll be even better with a 9mm. On paper you can point to little differences in numbers to make your "point", in practice however, 9mm is better from a user interface perspective. If anything it's sad that we're still using 9mm and not some new bottle necked cartridge like the FK BRNOs. Until handgun rounds start approaching intermediate rifle ballistics, the fact of the matter is all they're doing is punching small holes in stuff. Meaning that aim, capacity, and recoil control to hit the CNS are the most important factors.
>5.56 makes a 9mm and a 10mm look like the same shit
This is mostly due to barrel length. I can't speak for 9mm or 10mm, but I know buffalo bore 180 grain .357 leaves a 18.5in barrel at 1,850 fps, translating to 1,369 ftlbs and extremely good penetration from a hardcast. This is comparable in energy to both .223 and 5.56. A normal pressure buffalo bore .44 magnum hardcast at 305 grains from a 18.5in rifle hits at 1,779 fps generating 2,100ftlbs of energy. From experience I can say .44 magnum from a rifle length barrel kicks about as hard as a 12 gauge with birdshot.
All this being said, flat meplat hardcasts are key. Even in humans. That 9mm, with proper bullet design, could have likely penetrated into the heart no problem. 10mm wouldn't make a difference in the case of humans. Remember too that the entire fight was ended from an injured agent, using his 6 shot revolver to mag dump them at point blank.
.357 from a 18 inch barrel?
You do you man, but it’s utterly retarded
There’s a lot more to shooting than power. It’s called hitting what you’re fucking shooting at. Rifles are great because they have stocks and are easier to aim and shoot. The most powerful handgun in the world is never going to be as effective as an AR-15 or even a pistol caliber carbine.
>The most powerful handgun in the world is never going to be as effective as an AR-15 or even a pistol caliber carbine.
No shit, but no one is going to conceal carry one of those.
Yes. The reason the agents died was because they brought pistols to a gunfight. They absolutely knew they were going to get into a gunfight but they didn’t prepare, they didn’t bring long guns (except the one shotgun). 10mm wouldn’t have changed anything, a 10mm isn’t going to do shit when you don’t hit your target, the marksmanship of the agents were lacking but in their defense someone was shooting at them with a rifle.
Your 10mm isn’t any more effective than an .40, only thing that matters is shot-placement and penetration in immediately incapacitating a threat. Headshots, heart shots, lung shots, you shoot center of mass because you have the best chance of hitting something important.
>.357 from a 18 inch barrel?
Yes. A lever action .357 or .44 magnum. Ar15s operate at rifle lengths, that's why they're effective. Shoot 5.56 out of a 4 inch barrel and see how it does. This is like comparing a motorcycle to a class 8 on towing capability. But go park a class 8 w/ trailer in your garage.
>10mm wouldn't make a difference in the case of humans.
Not necessarily. 10mm is more barrier-blind than 9mm.
The problem with Miami Dade is that none of the fucking agents hit their shots. Even with their .357 revolvers and 9mm autoloaders (some of whom fired 3 entire magazines). They absolutely knew the two were armed and dangerous, they should have brought pump shotguns and submachine guns.
But they had autoloaders and 357 magnum on hand. The issues were training, not the lack of your autistic fixation.
>using 38 special revolvers
No, they used 38 special in their revolvers chambered for .357. They had no reason not to use magnums, except to limit recoil. They also knew the men involved were highly violent and extremely well armed and decided to rush an investigation and get in a shootout using service revolvers and a couple shotguns with buckshot. I'm not even sure they had slugs on hand.
This is back when the FBI could and would supply literally any firearm agents asked for when dealing with violent criminals. They could have rolled up with an M2 if they wanted.
There were agents armed with MP5s in the task force, they just weren’t the ones who caught him.
>10mm too strong for women it was men that needed it
>every single man at Miami-Dade used 38 special in their full size steel frame 357 revolvers
Idk man seems like cope to me.
>10 Minority Mangler designed from the get go to kill morons
Perhaps we judged this too harshly? I'll see if i can find a used one and try it. I prefer 9 or fuddyfive tho
.45 AntiColored Person was also designed to kill brown "people" following the Moro Uprising and .38 Stop Pointless Lawlessness was the handgun of choice for Segregation Era police.
>bmi
I agree with this. 9mm couldn’t hit organs on lanklets in the 80s. How’s it going to kill fatties in the current year?
>xboxhueg deagle
It depresses me that it's been so long since I've seen someone use these terms.
I want to turn 360 degrees and walk away back to the good times
No. 30sc is high pressure as fuck, it is nothing remotely like 32acp. There will never be 30sc in pocket guns.
The best pistol round would be a single shot 12 ga
>but muh recoil
Stop being a pussy
>but muh NFA
You're right, we should all start CCing single shot 12ga pistols in protest, if the ATF gives you shit send them buckshot or a slug
Disposable four winds shotguns will become the new meta.
With RMR cuts (the RMR is just a piece of clear plastic with a red dot drawn on it)
imperturbable trusting damp delirious faithful buoyant roughly cereal chin stitch pilot clarify clarify
I just like guns , bro
>not pointy
It's shit.
You have converted me. I see the light, brother. What 10mm doublestack pistol should I buy? (non-glock)
FN 510
It's 357mag for autoloaders (by necessity being shorter/fatter) buffalo bore 180gr is identical out of whatever standard full size gun
So yeah it's pretty cool
It's the most popular pistol cartridge here in Alaska. Lots of it on the shelf at LGS. Everybody has one.
bubba’s pissin hot .45 colt was always the answer
I got you anon.
what would those do to a person?
Never thought about it, they're for hunting.
Rape them
Well, it is 45 Long Cock
No, it's too bulky, grip may be too long for handlets
Doesn't matter
Doesn't matter
Doesn't matter
Nope, shoot a g29 vs a G19 or even g26 on a clock where hits are actually scored and get back to me on that.
10mm is a meme for anything other than woods use and even then it's debatable.
So you're not only a handlet and a wristlet but a weakling?
Definitely debatable. 9mm has put 9 grizzly dicks in the dirt in defensive shootings without fail. I can only see 10mm being used in that long slide Glock for handgun hunting due to the increased FPS, trajectory, and energy at range. Shit that doesn't matter in 99.99999% of handgun based use.
Love me 10mm.
Love me 12g slugs.
Simple as.
9millimetards will tell you 10 mm is not better at all in any way and then use the exact same argument you just used to tell you why you should NEVER EVER carry .380 ACP because IT'S USELESS COMPARED TO 9, GEL TESTS, YOU'LL DIE BRO.
And it's weird because there are plenty of arguments why 9mm is better than 10mm for most people without getting into the whole stopping power debate, but they almost never talk about those.
>shot-placement and penetration in immediately incapacitating a threat. Headshots, heart shots, lung shots
And 10mm has better penetration than 9mm. You might say that it only matters in certain circumstances, but it's still an advantage if the target has his arms up shooting back at you or is behind automotive glass, etc.
Enough penetration is what I mean but yeah anything with a heavier projectile is going to be more barrier blind, from a on paper standpoint .40 is a great caliber, more performance than 9mm but with the same frame size. It just sucks to shoot in most guns due to them just changing a 9mm gun into .40 without any real design changes.
I carry 9mm 147 gr +P, the new military loading M1153
>I carry 9mm 147 gr +P, the new military loading M1153
I might switch to that. I've been carrying those ultralight 90gr +P+ xtreme defenders from Underwood, but I'm worried about how something like that might perform against a human ribcage or sternum out of a subcompact.
Those lehigh bullets make me concerned they'll continue to sail through. Penetration and barrier blindness is not their problem.
>bullets at typical handgun velocities must physically touch tissue to damage it as there are no remote wounding effects caused by the temporary cavity exceeding the elasticity of human flesh at these velocities
>in order to successfully incapacitate a threat via physical damage vital structures must be damaged
>only rounds with adequate penetration can reach these vital structures
>shot placement and penetration are the only factors that determine the effectiveness of any given handgun round to cause physical damage to vital structures
>the only downside to maximizing penetration with bullet selection is over-penetration
>if you don't care about overpenetration there is no reason to ever use hollowpoints because they limit penetration in exchange for an increase in surface area which is only a theoretically worthwhile exchange if you know for a FACT that expansion will not limit your penetration to unacceptable levels
>round nose bullets are inferior to bullets with square shoulders and flat meplats in their ability to cut tissue
>assuming two rounds have equally adequate penetration the better round of the two will be the one you can shoot faster while maintaining accuracy.
Hits count. First hits count most. Carry whatever gun/caliber combo you can make fast accurate hits with. Everything else is marketing bullshit designed to have you paying for overpriced meme ammunition.
If the bullet can only damage what it touches(in the case of handgun cartridges), then wouldn't the ideal scenario be to have hollowpoints that expand to a good size, can punch through bone, and penetrate deeply?
This does of course assume you're already hitting what you're aiming at, and I get that fast, accurate followup shots are vital - so does 10mm do both of these things well, or is it a bit too powerful to prevent rapid accuracy?
Who cares they all work the same.
The only thing I hate about 10mm is that the people who shoot it literally won't fucking shut up about it, and they have to play mental gymnastics with themselves to justify why it's the best cartridge.
The truth is that just like every other pistol cartridge developed after the 30's it's a compromise of design elements and you might find that it's the right compromise for you but others might not.
>muh power
There are other, more powerful cartridges, including all the magnum revolver cartridges from 357 mag and up, and of course anything that a deagle brand deagle shoots.
>muh revolvers
That's fine, there's still 50 ae et al.
>but I don't like deagles / they're too big / they're ugly
Okay, then just admit that you're a PrepHole fashionista and you don't actually give a shit about power. Even so, it's a big cartridge and most people aren't gonna like shooting a gun with a big blocky double stack magwell designed to fit these things and don't be shocked when it's not popular. And shooting this out of a small gun is not going to be fun, because while it's not the most powerful cartridge, it's powerful enough to have an uncomfortable snappy recoil out of a small gun.
>The only thing I hate about 10mm is that the people who shoot it literally won't fucking shut up about it, and they have to play mental gymnastics with themselves to justify why it's the best cartridge.
those people don't even shoot them or own guns
all you need is a 22lr and git gud enough to always make headshots. literally zero excuse not to do this.
>no more effective than 9mm
>less capacity
it's shit
>>no more effective than 9mm
No more effective at shooting cardboard, yes.
>>less capacity
15 rounds vs 17 rounds. I feel like at some point the law of diminishing returns comes into play. The best arguments against 10mm are that it has more recoil and requires a bigger gun to get the full benefit. The power and capacity arguments are just 9mmfags grasping at straws.
>5.7’s purpose is to defeat body armor in a compact format
>can’t buy the specific AP ammo required to do this
Face it, 5.7 is useless for civilian purposes.
5.7's purpose was to replace 9mm
>>can’t buy the specific AP ammo required to do this
I mean you can. It's like $8-10 per round, but you can get SS190 if you really want it. FYI "armor piercing" ammo isn't banned. Only steel-core handgun ammo. There are solid copper 5.7 projectiles out there that are hard enough to penetrate armor while being perfectly legal for civilians to purchase.
you could also forge your own eh
10mm in not a watered-down loading should be US military standard. The whole NATO standardization is pointless in this case since no army is even making large scale use of 9mm submachine guns these days and you don't go through that much pistol ammo where it is a big deal.
If someone with a brain ever gets in charge of this country and purges the military of all the pussy-bullshit retarded political-officers and others keep bringing in they ought to go to 10mm just to make a statement. Also dump multicam because everyone and their mother is also using multicam and that's boring.
You're right, but the military relies on recruiting a steady supply of low-IQ manlets fresh out of high school to feed its ranks. 9mm is gonna stay for the long haul, because it's braindead easy for anyone to shoot 50 rounds of it per year and pass marksmanship qualifications. Really 5.7 would be better to replace 9mm for military and police use since it's even easier to shoot. All those schools who are hiring resource officers to deal with mass shooters should be arming them with 5.7 due to the prevalence of those who wear body armor.
>actually believing that anything other than magazine capacity, controllability, and availability matter when choosing a pistol caliber
Alrighty boi, then go ahead and carry a .22 short or even better a bb pistol you fucking spaz.
22 has no significant capacity advantage in a majority of pistols
Most only hold 10 rounds
BB guns are not firearms
Bad bait or bad argument?
>he starts making excuses
Fine, then fight off an intruder wearing a vest with .32 ACP or some other underpowered bullshit.
Tyrone can't afford Kevlar
A police raid would involve officers with lvl3 and nothing coming out of a consumer pistol will defeat that
I just read the entire .32 ACP thread and boy I'm sure glad I carry a round I can trust.
9mm is the 6 feet tall of the caliber world. Lanklet calibers seethe about their subpar overall performance and caliberlets cope with muh recoil. Handgun calibers are about compromises and 9mm is the best compromise.
I do want a 2011 in 10mm but I also don't see what it does to warrant carrying over something with higher capacity like 9mm.
>You like 10mm huh?
>Yes sir
>So you must shoot it a lot then
bump
>10 Minority Mangler
>45 Anti Colored Person
50 African Eliminator
Yeah but no single stack pocket guns and the closest are g29 which is pretty nice already but smaller is bond arms, which are huge and heavy and american derringer m1 10mm but its 650
>SEVEN
>SIX
>TWO
>Racks Tokarev, import safety causes me to ND into my thigh
>FULL
>METAL
>JACKET
Why not just reload 10mm if it's so expensive?
Some people are lazy. And if you're defending 9mm toes and nails against 10mm chances are high that you're not much into guns but just want a good enough package
clown
also clown
oh look, this clown thinks real life is john wick
how does 10mm out of a subcompact glock29 compare to 9mm?
I'm sure some nerd can pull up a bunch of ballistics data, but I doubt it's worth it at that point. I would think you would lose most of the advantages of 10 minority mangler if you went smaller than something the size of a G19. I don't know why Glonk doesn't make something between the size of the 20 and the 29.
>The pistol cartridge debate ended in 1983
Except for the part where it didn't because even it's creators and biggest users walked away. Thanks for trying though. It's okay to just like something for your own reasons you annoying cunt, you don't have to spend your entire life sitting around shitting out endless threads about how it's OBJECTIVELY THE BETTEREST!!! Please get fed up with how your life is a stagnant, depressing hell of your own creation and have a nice day already
The more this 10mmfag posts the less it looks like hes arguing for himself and more like hes justifying a purchase. Why compare yourself to normalfags who shoot 50 rounds if you actually train?
>Why compare yourself to normalfags who shoot 50 rounds if you actually train?
Because some 9mmfag said that 10mmfags don't actually train, which is weird because someone who doesn't actually train would be advocating for 9mm due to it being easier to shoot. If you don't train then yeah 9mm is gonna be better.
10mm fags dont train because the ammo costs too much lmao. Everyone is telling you 9mm is better for this reason among other things you twat. People who train with 9mm on a similar budget with those who train with 10mm will simply be better because theyll have more range time.
>People who train with 9mm on a similar budget with those who train with 10mm will simply be better because theyll have more range time.
The law of diminishing returns will eventually come into play here. Getting good with 9mm doesn't take that much range time, and getting good with 10mm is only marginally more difficult for a grown man. Modern handguns even have shooting aids like red dot optics that were unheard of in the 80s when 10mm first came on the scene.
But you dont train with 10mm and it shows in your posts. 9mm is the better compromise round due to costs, a more compact full size frame, and general ease of handling large volumes of +P or +P+ for most shooters. 10mm simply has too many downsides to 9mm with no advantage.
>9mm is the better compromise round due to costs,
Only matters to poorfags
>a more compact full size frame,
Marginally yes but if you're carrying OWB then it doesn't really matter. The biggest issue is actually finding a holster for your 10mm handgun.
>and general ease of handling large volumes of +P or +P+ for most shooters.
Nobody ever said that most shooters should carry 10mm.
Oh and heres the cope lmao.
>muh ammo costs
How about you stop being poor or carry 22lr then?
I buy ammo by the case, you training for a day on a single box isnt impressive to me.
>Muh 22lr
Come on 10mmfag, this is just poor bait
I mean you guys can carry whatever you want, but people who will defend 9mm to the death when both the FBI and NATO previously expressed desire to replace it are just weird to me. 9mm is a jack-of-all-trades cartridge, and that's fine. Just keep in mind that as threats evolve, so should our response to those threats. The world isn't the same place it was in 1901, and neither are American criminals who are bigger, heavier, more under the influence of drugs, more heavily armed, and more armored up than they were over 100 years ago.
>Really mad his meme round failed
10mm lost to 9mm, end of story.
I'm not married to the idea of 10mm, so no, I'm not mad that the FBI for whatever reason decided that they couldn't handle it 40 years ago. I actually carry 9mm more than anything since I need a smaller pocket gun to carry while I'm at my job. I just find a lot of the footage of high-profile shootings that involve 9mm to be concerning, and I don't really see many drawbacks of carrying 10mm if you were already going to be carrying a fullsize 9mm.
The issues with police shootings is largely training related. If youve never trained hard it may make sense to younthat its the guns fault, but this 99.99% of the time is a fallacy many people fool themselves with to avoid hurting their ego.
>neither are American criminals who are bigger, heavier, more under the influence of drugs, more heavily armed
Good thing the average carry gun is no longer a 5-6 round double action .38 Spl revolver, then.
>and more armored up
You're more likely to encounter a suicide bomber than mugger or home invader wearing armor.
Home invasions and the typical distances muggings and police shootings happen at are probably fine for 9mm most of the time. What I'm talking about are instances like where Elisjsha Dickens was forced to take ten 40 yard shots with a Glock 19 at a mass shooter armed with an AR, or the Nashville Covenant School shooting where the responding cops waited for the one guy with an AR to engage the shooter at range because everyone else was only armed with 9mm handguns. So yeah, even if 9mm is just as good as 10mm 99% of the time, I want to be prepared for that 1% of the time that 10mm would have an advantage.
There was some random goober who hit a guy at around that distance just fine with a glock 19. Its unironically a skill issue and 10mm will just make bigger holes in the walls they inevitably hit and nothing else because the fundamentals are shit. Stop acting like you can buy skill, its like thinking taking steroids and sitting on your ass will bring you gains.
Protip: 10mm would give you no advantage over 9mm in either of these situations, since they are situations which would be helped by having a rifle, not a different flavor of handgun.
9mm drops 2 inches at 50 yards vs 10mm that only drops 1 inch. 9mm drops a foot at 100 yards vs 10mm which only drops 4 inches. Of course a rifle is ideal, but no one is just going to carry an AR while going about his day.
>considering bullet drop at 100yd in a handgun cartridge
We're reaching the point where you need meds more than a rifle.
>as threats evolve
meth heads don't wear armor, larptard
The second amendment is for fighting people who wear armor.
>implying
They are regularly apprehended with body armor.
But it's ammo costs that prevent YOU from training with your epic (and surprisingly pristine looking) 10mm, Anon. Not me.
They don't actually train which is why they pick the caliber shilled as the biggest baddest semi auto caliber that still comes in relatively normal carry packages.
Since they don't train, ammo costs are a non issue for them, and so is the power of the round, because since they don't train, they'd probably botch shooting 9mm and 10mm equally badly in any sort of high stress scenario.
This is not hard to understand and makes up the majority of 10mm owners.
It's fine, but more expensive than the 9mm which comes in more flavors and is cheaper, making it sort of redundant unless you REALLY want a direct blowback gun.
.380 pocket guns are still considerably smaller than micro 9s.
It is but its not available in fullsize in many cases. I carry a Cheetah in the summer and thats about as big as a .380 should be before its just overkill for the caliber. I carry 9mm in the winter also due to the superior penetration of 9mm which matters in a cold climate.
Has I not gotten an SP101, I would have bought an 80x.
How do you like it?
Mines on old Italian police trade in. It shoots fine, some people find it a tad snappy but its way less than a subcomp 9mm. Im tempted to get the 80X as a hd gun for total peace of mind for where my rounds are going.
I don't have a 380, but I like the idea of it since you can make it fit guns that are really small. My gf is very petite with tiny hands, so I'd like to find something manageable for her.
Lcp max
OP; you're wrong. 357 SIG is actually the best pistol round.
Oh they make 9x25 for women?