The Fight for Bakhmut Continues

>Full Report: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-6-2023

The ISW assesses that the Ukrainian's are enticed by the opportunity to inflict losses on elite elements of Wagner and regular Russian forces. What do we think? US advisors still seem opposed to delaying withdrawal from the city. Is it possible that Zelensky is valuing Bakhmut for optics/political reasons over strategic?

I agree with what the ISW also hints at in this report that the Russians via Wagner have been feeding a stream of bottom of the barrel prison recruits that are otherwise beyond disposable into the city. These are still losses nonetheless, but Ukraine is still suffering attrition of its competent fighting men in the process. Ukraine cannot absorb losses in the same way Russia can (or perhaps could) both in men and material for the time being. I think the risk of encirclement is far too likely to be ignored.

  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Is it possible that Zelensky is valuing Bakhmut
    Zelensky doesn't decide actions of the military

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      This is not a genuine statement. Zelensky has regularly dictated military goals/aims and directly intervenes when it comes to military staffing.

      see: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/zelenskiy-fires-top-ukrainian-military-commander-no-reason-given-2023-02-26/

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Zelensky has regularly dictated military goals/aims
        Even your fucking ISW report states that Zelensky said defense of Bakhmut will continue after he met with Zaluzhnyi and Syrskyi which told him that they will continue defending the city

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >zelenskiy-fires-top-ukrainian-military-commander-no-reason-given
        Yeah I'm, sure no reason lmao, entirely on a whim

        • 3 weeks ago
          OP

          Anon it doesn't say no reason. It says that there was not an official statement on the reason. There was no reason given, not no reason. Please try to read more carefully.

        • 3 weeks ago
          OP

          >What do we think? US advisors still seem opposed to delaying withdrawal from the city. Is it possible that Zelensky is valuing Bakhmut for optics/political reasons over strategic?

          [...]

          >US advisors still seem opposed to delaying withdrawal from the city.
          Uhh... Source? Or do you mean your reddit advisors?

          Are you also demoralized yet? As a fellow supporter of the hohol nazi scum I am deeply concerned at the garden gnome zelensky's strategy, and think he should withdraw from Bakhmut without a fight -- ideally to Warsaw.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            We Americans are being way too cautious.

            Ukraine SHOULD attack the Russian flanks and prevent any such bullshit encirclement while striking Russian Logistics to drain them of AMMO.

            The last thing the Russian MoD has planned for is a fucking defeat. Hold the line and wear them down.

            • 3 weeks ago
              OP

              Easier said than done fren. Despite western aid Ukraine struggles with logistics, and ammunition supplies themselves. To simply move about the battlefield uncontested and make penetrating strikes wherever they'd like isn't in the cards. Russians steep advantage in artillery fire seems to be showing on the flanks specifically wear Ukranian counterattacks have suffered from heavy shelling.

              You're not wrong though, it's certainly imperative that they keep the jaws from closing.

              • 3 weeks ago
                OP

                >it's certainly imperative that they keep the jaws from closing.
                That said, if only I could keep my jaws from closing around Corporal Valery's sore-encrusted cock after lights-out. The things I do for Mother Russia!

              • 3 weeks ago
                OP

                Have I offended you in someway? I really don't believe I've done any pro-russian signaling in this thread. Just want other people's opinions.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Ukraine cannot absorb losses in the same way Russia can (or perhaps could) both in men and material for the time being. I think the risk of encirclement is far too likely to be ignored.

                This is the same tired concern trolling you gays have been posting for months now. Either you're posting in bad faith ( likely), or your read of the overall situation is absolutely retarded. Bakhmut involves Russia throwing conscripts into an urban meatgrinder against an entrenched opponent, without being able to bring its sole advantage (artillery) to bear like it could in open terrain around the city. Even in the absence of hard info, the casualty ratio surely favors the ukes -- and in any event, if Ukraine mobilized 10% of its population, it has 4.5 million potential soldiers to work with.

                Russia is arming its forces with fucking T-62s and MTLBs with 50s naval turrets welded on, while Ukraine is just waiting for the mud season to end before rolling in with Western MBTs. It has no capacity left to launch the kind of encirclement vatnik shills have been bleating about for months. They are completely fucked.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Why can't Russia shell a city?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Strike the Russian ammo supply points. Russians can't fight without ammo.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Russians steep advantage in artillery fire
                You mean the one that only existed in vatmoron delusions for months now?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Ukraine has superior artillery range and precision for sure.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Russians steep advantage in artillery fire
                You mean the one that only existed in vatmoron delusions for months now?

                That is the problem with Russian artillery. Ukraine has less problem the farer they are from the front. Thtas why they liked the Shahed drones, because they were much more precise and had cameras for targeting!

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >That's why they liked the Shahed drones, because they were much more precise and had cameras for targeting!
                >much more precise and had cameras for targeting!
                They have neither of those qualities? Or are you being sarcastic.

            • 3 weeks ago
              OP

              I agree, Americans should attack with full force and colonize my boypussy, my asshole is quivering with the thought of strong Settler Seed settling in my special place. If only I was a real woman I could bear your babies after you've manifested destiny all over my fertile body ~~

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Dumb ESL, it says no reason GIVEN.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yes, because guess what the president is the only person who can fire highest level of military staff. They got no other bosses.

        • 3 weeks ago
          OP

          You're correct and just like the POTUS Zelensky has final say when it comes to Ukranian military matters. I didn't think this would be a contentious point.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Zelensky appoints the generals and obviously has a say in military matters bit he is not commander in chief

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The hell are they doing. I hope it works out for them, but damn

      This is not a genuine statement. Zelensky has regularly dictated military goals/aims and directly intervenes when it comes to military staffing.

      see: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/zelenskiy-fires-top-ukrainian-military-commander-no-reason-given-2023-02-26/

      Also the issue of politicians and the military having differing goals is as old as warfare itself

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >the Russians via Wagner have been feeding a stream of bottom of the barrel prison recruits that are otherwise beyond disposable into the city.
    I've been hearing this narrative ever since the start of the war. Does the entire Muscovy population consist of these disposable prison recruits?

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      For various reasons Russia actually has a large prisoner population (~500,000). There is bound to be a lot of able bodied men in that bunch who'd rather try their luck on the frontline than stay rotting in whatever hole they're being kept in.

      source: https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/russian-federation

      >Zelensky has regularly dictated military goals/aims
      Even your fucking ISW report states that Zelensky said defense of Bakhmut will continue after he met with Zaluzhnyi and Syrskyi which told him that they will continue defending the city

      I think this is a semantical point. Ukraine is not free of all the idiosyncrasies of the former USSR. Corruption in Ukraine was and still likely is rather endemic. I am certain that regardless of who's opinion was who's they are going to present the face of full cohesion to the media.

      https://i.imgur.com/i2vGX7f.jpg

      >elite elements of Wagner and regular Russian forces.
      stopped reading right there the idea of wagner being elite is just comedy

      Well I am just referring to the regular professional soldiers of Wagner. If you find elite to be an inappropriate marker than so be it.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >stopped reading right there the idea of wagner being elite is just comedy

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >I think this is a semantical point.
        Zelensky already made enough signals that Bakhmut can be given up, that was until he met with military and made 180 degree on it. If it was Zelensky decision it wouldn't go that way

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Ukraine needs to hammer the Russian flanks and pretty much ruin any chance of full encirclement.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I think they plan to. Not to flip the table with a full counter-offensive, but just to push them back enough to reset the meat grinder. They want the Russians to keep beating themselves to death so that when Ukraine launches its summer offensive the Russians won't have much left to stop it.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Can't wait for the Ukrainian autumn offensive, the Russians will be really exhausted after taking Bakhmut

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Ukraine only now start to get Western tanks and IFVs
                >troops still not trained on it because they receive more comprehensive combined arms training
                >will take some time until all of it arrives
                >UkRaIne ShouLD aTTack NoW!

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Ukraine cannot absorb losses in the same way Russia can
        At current casualty ratios, Russia will literally run out of military-age male population first.

        >and material
        Ukraine has the overwhelming majority of the global economy providing for its material needs. Russia has only it's own economy, which started out as a miniscule fraction of that and has been in steady collapse ever since the sanctions hit.

        You're impressing nobody, vatmoron.

        >There is bound to be a lot of able bodied men in that bunch

        Were. There were a lot. Most of them are dead by now. The Russians themselves reported that barely anyone is taking up the offer anymore months ago. Ever since, it's been back to Wagner professionals, mobiks and VDV getting slaughtered in the thousands at Bakhmut, at the cost of a mere fraction that number in ukrainian casualties.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The opportunity to kill a lot of Russia's "best" (VDV, Wagner professionals) is too great to pass up.

        • 3 weeks ago
          OP

          What are these causality ratios? I still have yet to see any real independently verified numbers for this conflict. Just the propaganda stats from each side. That said surely you realize what you've just said is a bit ludicrous? ~800,000 Russian men turn 18 and become eligible for conscription every year. We are nowhere near those causality numbers even on the extreme side of the reporting.

          Ukraine has the pledged support of many nations but it took months of arm bending just to secure dozens of assorted tanks and IFV's that have no definite delivery time. The US and NATO need time to scale up the industrial base to satisfy their and Ukraine needs and the US certainly isn't going to leave itself too vulnerable with rising tensions in the Pacific. There is only so much that can ne given to Ukraine. Additionally with Ukraine spending becoming a partisan issue in the US and a new republican house majority it's unlikely that any big Ukraine packages will get passed through. The executive branch can still muster support on it's own but not as much and not as easily.

          For what it's worth I'm an American and a former servicemen at that. I don't have any vested interest in Russia or it's performance in this conflict.

          • 3 weeks ago
            OP

            >That said surely you realize what you've just said is a bit ludicrous? ~800,000 Russian men turn 18 and become eligible for conscription every year. We are nowhere near those causality numbers even on the extreme side of the reporting.

            Exactly my point, you doublemoron. This war is not going to be decided by each side bleeding each other of manpower, so whatever advantage Russia has in that area is entirely moot. Hence your concern trolling about Bakhmut and attrition is nonsense.

            And if you were indeed in the military (which I fucking doubt, unless you were a POG), you'd know it's self-evidently better for a defender to hold the line in build-up terrain, especially where its opponent has an artillery advantage). Why withdraw to open terrain where they can get shelled?

            • 3 weeks ago
              OP

              I made this thread to get input from others. I'm not concern trolling. You make a good point. It's not so easy for the Ukranian forces to withdraw from their current hardened positions. I believe this is why US advisors pushed for withdrawal as far back as a few months. Personally I don't think this war is being resolved this year or the next. Both sides have fundamental limitations that will restrict them from achieving their strategic goals.

            • 3 weeks ago
              OP

              Oh and I wasn't bringing up the servicemen bit as an appeal to credibility. I was Air Force kek. Just wanted to say that I am fond of my country and don't fawn over the le masculine slavaboo aesthetics.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Anon, Russians can't use conscripts without a declaration of war.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              they can use conscripts without declaring war, but only on russian territory, which, thanks to those decrees last year, means the entirety of the current front is fair game

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              It’s also illegal to have PMCs and the president has (had) term limits but when has that ever stopped Putin and his regime? Russian culture has a rules for suckers mentality as anyone staying in line is a square and not partaking in corruption is seen as anti-social and suHispanicious. Decades of Soviet rule, centuries of imperial legacy, and many years under the Golden Hoard cannot be undone with haste.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Ukraine has the pledged support of many nations but it took months of arm bending just to secure dozens of assorted tanks and IFV's that have no definite delivery time.

            The only thing that the west can produce with short lead times are simple armored cars with steel armor and an unstabilized machine gun on top. IFVs take years to build with a huge subcontractor logistic chain. F.ex there is next to no capability left to manufacture gun barrels. I am not talking about rifle caliber weapons here but cannon calibers.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          While the current defensive lines West of Bakhmut are highly favorable to Ukraine, and the Russian offensive at Vuhledar seems to have already culminated, not all battles will likely have such favorable k/d ratios. If Ukraine does mount a counter offensive in spring or summer, even with relatively modern NATO armor spearheading the assault, casualties figures are likely to be significantly higher than they have been at Bakhmut.

          For all cope about 50k dead at Kharkiv, and particularly Kherson, we still don't have a really good idea of just how costly the offensives were for Ukraine. I think it remains to be seen just how much that offensive, plus months and months on end of holding Bakhmut will have been for Ukraine.

          It's possible the counter offensive goes at least as well as their counter offensive in Kherson goes. It's also possible that Russia will dig in somewhere like Melitopol and blunt it before Ukraine achieves anything on that scale again. Just gotta wait and see at this point.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        at this point the info about wagners prisoner unit survival rates should have reached the prisons, so anyone who is not serving 100 life sentences will realize that its not a ticket out of the prison. Early war, with some hopium and copium about short war the prisoners had some pretty good motivations to join, now, not so much

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Didn't the Russian MoD block Wagner from recruiting from prisons and made it their source of new recruits?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            that too. Hard to say if it was just to prevent wagner becoming more prominent, or if MoD wanted that recruit pool for themselves, or just out of spite because of wagner bitching about moD

          • 3 weeks ago
            OP

            Now that things have stabilized (I use that very loosely) Putin doesn't have to let Wagner and the Russian millbloggers do as they please. Professionalization effort is underway. He wants to wrap them and the militias up into one big happy family inside the Russian military proper. That also means returning the recruiting efforts to the MOD. (Russian MOD would much rather Putin bite the bullet on public blowback and just call up another mobilization of non volunteers).

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              i dunno about that, they are still treating lugandan and donbabwean units as separate units, but reinforcing then with draftees lmao

              • 3 weeks ago
                OP

                It's not gonna happen overnight, but that's the intention. Enacting a professionalization effort during active and very difficult combat operations is fairly questionable. It's a good idea at a bad time. Not to mention the militias and Wagner are very opposed to this.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Prigozhin is on video telling prisoners that signing up will mean almost certain death. That doesn't seem to dissuade recruits, which says something about the state of Russian prisons.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >big numbahr hard
      >gronk hait big numhraz!

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's the typical vatnik Vodka vision double think.

      human wave or Wagner wiggle after drone strike ? Disposable human trash, drunk, druggies, coomers nothing lost!!!! They only had shovels and ww1 gear *~~))

      Wagner places a flag at the city gate? Elite mercenaries, war veterans, valuable professional shock troops with gear and tactics and army support!!!

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Perun told me that most of Wagner is untrained disposable prison trash, and that a small portion of Wagner are elite mercenaries with equipment, training and experience.

        Is Perun lying?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          anon, imagine a group composed of a certain number of people
          some of those people are pretty good
          some of those people are trash
          >most of Wagner is untrained disposable prison trash
          oh look you even said it yourself
          anyway, imagine that the trash is used to crummy but necessary duties
          and the decently capable people finish the job (or at least show up for a photo op)
          imagine

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That's the scenario I described, which Perun described, and which this post seems to characterize as a "double think":

            It's the typical vatnik Vodka vision double think.

            human wave or Wagner wiggle after drone strike ? Disposable human trash, drunk, druggies, coomers nothing lost!!!! They only had shovels and ww1 gear *~~))

            Wagner places a flag at the city gate? Elite mercenaries, war veterans, valuable professional shock troops with gear and tactics and army support!!!

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Perun told me that most of Wagner is untrained disposable prison trash, and that a small portion of Wagner are elite mercenaries with equipment, training and experience.

          The core skeleton of wagner is about 10 000 ex-spetznas officers. The muscle is ex convicts and garbage russians.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            At this point those 10k actual Russian veterans have been reduced to 5k only. That's partially the reason for the convict recruiting.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >At this point those 10k actual Russian veterans have been reduced to 5k only. That's partially the reason for the convict recruiting.

              Convicts dont become officers in wagner.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          the disposable prison trash is mostly dead at this point. Hence why they are now recruiting in schools.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Who said all the Russian prisoners are Muscovites?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yes

  3. 3 weeks ago
    OP

    Some maps because why not
    >bottom left: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36a7f6a6f5a9448496de641cf64bd375
    >top right: https://geo.parabellumhistory.net/index.php/view/map/?repository=contemporary&project=P2011
    >top left: https://newsmap.pl/2022-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-interactive-map/

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      is that a fucking Russian Marine unit?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      What is bottom right depicting

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    How do the ukies even still supply Bakhmut? Aren't all roads into Bakhmut under russian fire control?

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      I have been wondering this as well. There have been some videos claiming to be UAF convoys under fire into Bakhmut but I nor a source I trust have verified those. Still it's only logical they are being harassed in some capacity. I imagine Russia would like those roads mostly intact however.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They don't.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Is this a Hollywood staged fake then? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSozsPDQ_AE&t=15s&ab_channel=MotoLIFE

        • 3 weeks ago
          OP

          Can you provide us some context Anon? The video was uploaded 3 days ago but when was it recorded? I am assuming it's supposed to be Ukrainian reinforcements taking the road into Bakhmut?

          They're moving more troops into Bakhmut when they have no way to supply them? Sounds way too retarded to be true

          Ukrainian troops moving to the area don't necessarily mean they are going into the city. They could be going to the flanks trying to contain the Russian encirclement.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They're moving more troops into Bakhmut when they have no way to supply them? Sounds way too retarded to be true

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The troops bring their own supply. They're usually dead in about 4 hours so they travel fairly light.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >They're usually dead in about 4 hours
            Vatmoron projection at its finest. Well guess we know know the life expectancy of the average mobik at the Bakhmut front. Grim stuff.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They just drive through the artillery. They take losses but a good chunk of the troops and supplies still make it through

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      how did France supply Verdun?

      unguided artillery isn't great at completely shutting off supply if the enemy is willing to tank some casualties.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >ISW also hints at in this report that the Russians via Wagner have been feeding a stream of bottom of the barrel prison recruits that are otherwise beyond disposable into the city
    Actually they are saying contrary. Wagner is feeding its most elite units while Russian MoD is sending DVD to their death because they are running out of prisoners

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Makes sense. The only function of the prisoner waves was to probe defensive positions for artillery targets. Assaults as described couldn't have any real effect as two guys with scouted positions could stop nearly infinite amount of them.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >The only function of the prisoner waves was to probe defensive positions for artillery targets.
        Not the ONLY function. And ”human wave” is inappropriate. It was more a continuous stream of 8 man assault squads. They progressed by gaining a few dozen meters and digging positions, rinse and repeat until they are close enougth to send better equiped veterans to clear the enemy trench, or the ukrainians retreat after running out of ammo.
        If you saw the video of Predator/Rambo/Squire/trench goblin you see that he runs out of ammo by the end of pushing back just 1 assault group. Supplying in a timely manner a forward position under fire is not easy to do, even if you have plenty of ammo in stock in the rear.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It's Vietnam War assault sapper tactics. The NVA/VC sappers were trained in the Warsaw Pact after all.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >If you saw the video of Predator/Rambo/Squire/trench goblin you see that he runs out of ammo

          Also, I noted that the guy in white pants that the trench ukie shot wasnt among the corpses displayed after the battle, so he was dragged away by some other survivor. And you can hear that BMP-2 30 mm cannon go whump-whump-whump at the end of the video, so the trench ukies RPGs never hit. The russians did a probing attack, got beaten back, and resumed the shelling. Also, the trench reloooader guy was an old man who had never been in combat before, so he must be a replacement for an earlier loss, probably to artillery.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Meds

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      I didn't say otherwise. With the prisoner waves depleted professional soldiers are now in the fray. The Ukrainians know this and want to inflict real losses on these not so disposable men. They are committing further to Bakhmut for this reason.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >elite elements of Wagner and regular Russian forces.
    stopped reading right there the idea of wagner being elite is just comedy

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Wagner has elite units, they have actual thermals, night vision, plates and are made almost exclusively from Russian ex-soldiers that like war and hate low military pay.
      They are not elite by HATO standards but they are elite by Russian standards

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        So by "elite" what they actual mean is "equipped roughly to the basic level of a US Army rifle company" rather than any particular advanced training or experience?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Wagner is mostly a huge LARP. They get the most expensive tacticool gear they can afford, do sommersaults and those practice houses you see in COD tutorials. Some have military experience, but it's mostly from being a random grunt in Syria or bullying russian minorities.
          At least they have better gear than an average zigger and they have some sort of training other than being raped by the COs in the barracks for 6 months.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    OP

    [...]

    Nobody in this thread has said any of these things.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      retard

  8. 3 weeks ago
    OP

    I'm trans btw if that matters

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      >What do we think? US advisors still seem opposed to delaying withdrawal from the city. Is it possible that Zelensky is valuing Bakhmut for optics/political reasons over strategic?

      [...]
      [...]

      Are you also demoralized yet? As a fellow supporter of the hohol nazi scum I am deeply concerned at the garden gnome zelensky's strategy, and think he should withdraw from Bakhmut without a fight -- ideally to Warsaw.

      Kinda wondered when someone would shit up the thread this way, not that anyone would actually fall for the obvious bait.

      • 3 weeks ago
        OP

        >not that anyone would actually fall for the obvious bait
        Oops, I just did! Silly me, I must still be dizzy from all that vodka my commander gave me before fucking my russki boipussi.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >US advisors still seem opposed to delaying withdrawal from the city.
    Uhh... Source? Or do you mean your reddit advisors?

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Looking at how things went in Vuhledar there hardly seems to be a difference between Wagner prisoners and army conscripts

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Conscripts have mt-lb with naval turrets

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Conscripts have mt-lb with naval turrets

        No I think these are intended for donbassers since they use non-russian army ammunition. All strange and obsolete shit is dumped on the donbassers since the russian army doesnt have spare parts for this or that in its regular logistics chain. These mt-lb guntrucks are shit against a Bradley but they are gold against an ukie humveee rush like in Kharkiv. Their task will be to act as a rapid response force against light and highly mobile ukie wheeled calvary assault. Kind of like the US world war 2 tank destroyed concept, but orkified.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          At this point the donbassers are more russian troops transferred to the Donbass units or put under Donbass command though. The original donbassers are all dead.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    aren't you gays gloated that bakhmut has fallen for weeks now? how come you lied to me you absolute morons huh?

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    are russians physically unable to conceive of a system where president is not a god emperor who knows best and whose every whim is obeyed? Is the myth of batyushka tsar ingrained in their mind so inextricably?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Russians don't understand real democracy, nor do they get the Ukrainian desire for Russia to kindly fuck off.

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Ukraine has over 2million fighting age men that can be called up. its not close to having shortage in manpower. can russia convince more idiots to die in another country? or will x3 that many flee again in the next call up? my bets on the Ukrainians.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >can russia convince more idiots to die in another country?
      Yes

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        well compare it to the last call up, 3x many fled the country.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Those were all weenies corrupted by globohomo, only the strong true believers are left

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >strong true believers are left
            are you talking about the ones taken from the prisons?

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >the Russians via Wagner have been feeding a stream of bottom of the barrel prison recruits that are otherwise beyond disposable into the city.
    You do realize that when Wagner runs out of prison recruits, Russia runs out of easy soldiers, right? I don't get where this "m-muh disposable prisoners" cope comes from - it's not pure convenience that drives RuAF / Wagner, but necessity. If they could have used normal troops that are capable of properly conducting warfare, they would have. Scraping the barrel is something one does at the end, when all other options are exhausted.

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Russia is now running a hefty deficit despite 2022 being a standout year for commodities. It's true that the sanctions hurt Europe more, but Russia is still beginning to feel the pinch. So be sceptical of anyone who claims time is on the side of one actor over the other.

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      I remember Caspian did a video about the monetary realities of this. Russia has the benefit of a well stocked central reserve. Although I believe some of it is in Euros that may be difficult to utilize/convert. Agreed though, way to many variables and externalities to say that Ukraine or Russia have the long game to their advantage. Both might think they do in spite of reality however.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >I remember Caspian did a video about the monetary realities of this. Russia has the benefit of a well stocked central reserve.
        was that before or after 2/24? one of the biggest fuckups russia had was not repatriating their foreign reserve, which meant something like 2/3 of their liquid capital was frozen by foreign governments.

  16. 3 weeks ago
    OP

    So I am noticing a trend here. It seems like nobody can accept the concept of a post that isn't pro or anti russia/ukraine. Is it not possible for somebody to have an academic interest in the conflict? I've followed events in Ukraine ever since the riots broke out in 2014.

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      >the Russians via Wagner have been feeding a stream of bottom of the barrel prison recruits that are otherwise beyond disposable into the city.
      You do realize that when Wagner runs out of prison recruits, Russia runs out of easy soldiers, right? I don't get where this "m-muh disposable prisoners" cope comes from - it's not pure convenience that drives RuAF / Wagner, but necessity. If they could have used normal troops that are capable of properly conducting warfare, they would have. Scraping the barrel is something one does at the end, when all other options are exhausted.

      Like this here, Anon thinks I'm posting in support of Russias prison recruitment policies or otherwise a Russian apologist perspective. I just see the reasoning in using the prison cannon fodder, but I don't believe that's the best solution obviously.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      [...]
      Like this here, Anon thinks I'm posting in support of Russias prison recruitment policies or otherwise a Russian apologist perspective. I just see the reasoning in using the prison cannon fodder, but I don't believe that's the best solution obviously.

      Maybe because your post contained a number of talking points that vatniks have been shilling relentlessly for weeks, and we're sick of it? I would consider where you're getting your information from. I'm all for neutral discussions of the war, but after the millionth "hohols should withdraw from bakhmut before it's too late, blah blah attrition and population gap" thread, it's not possible.

      • 3 weeks ago
        OP

        Well it's not a delusion that Bakhmut is a precarious situation. There is an inherent gamble in keeping Russian forces engaged there. Ability to sustain losses has been the deciding factor in countless conflicts across history. Tactical and short term strategic successes don't correlate to total victories. They continue to be brought up because they continue to be relevant.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Ability to sustain losses
          Pure russian mindset. It’s their downfall, because it’s not enougth by itself. The WW2 Red Army had more than just dying by the millions.
          You’re not American, and not american trained. At best you’re a migrant, and a vatnik at heart.

          • 3 weeks ago
            OP

            I guess the Roman empire was founded by vatniks as well considering it's century spanning X factor was it's ability to replenish it's losses.

            But Bakhmut itself is irrelevant as a strategic position, except as a kill box.

            You're mostly correct. Ukraine sees it as a prime opportunity to inflict one sided attritional losses on Russia. Russia sees it as an opportunity to trap Ukranian forces in a pocket. Additionally for Russia capturing Bakhmut reopens some important pathways westward.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              The Roman Empire, the symbol of engineer warfare and logistics. Not of suicidal hordes pilling up bodies. You’re learning the wrong lessons from hostory.

              • 3 weeks ago
                OP

                I'm not saying it's the only thing that mattered, but of all the lessons history offers it's not one that should be ignored. Warfare is a logistics and numbers game and it's an important part of that equation.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Additionally for Russia capturing Bakhmut reopens some important pathways westward.

              Russia's ability to exploit this kind of a tactical victory has deteriorated (and is getting worse, T-62s). Everything points to a 50-50 coin toss between stalemate frozen conflict, or a somewhat successful Ukrainian counterattack with this "one time" boost of Western AFVs.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Unlike puccia, Rome actually had a birth rate that could deal with routine heavy losses.

              When that birth rate in their heartland levelled out, guess what happened? They entered a period of decline, increasing reliance on auxiliaries, and eventual collapse / conquest by those same auxiliaries.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          But Bakhmut itself is irrelevant as a strategic position, except as a kill box.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Killbox
            Bakhmut is brutal.

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I was wondering, encircling an enemy is all good and dandy, but doesn’t it also put you in a precarious situation, with a thin band sandwiched between a hammer and an anvil? We saw in Mariupol that a strong willed defender can hold a surrounded city for a month or two. And the ukrainians had time to build stockpiles of ammo and food, and the russians can’t expect to create a large envelopment like they did around Mariupol, as they are really slow to grind their way around Bakhmut.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yep, for sure. Snipping off the spearhead at the base of the salient is the dream of any defender.

      People throw the word "counteroffensive" around like retards these days, but that's what a counter-offensive actually is. The enemy launches their offensive, and then you launch a counter-offensive against the infrastructure supporting their offensive with the goal of, ideally, encircling the breakthrough force.

      Roughly speaking. Counter-offensive isn't a technical term or anything, it's not literally defined, but that's the idea of a real counter-offensive. You're going on the offensive to disrupt and destroy the enemy's offensive.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Bakhmut lacks a large Soviet era steelworks facility with a network of underground tunnels and bunkers like Mariupol but it does seem they’re rather dug in.

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So my theory that they are there just to bleed the Russians out was correct.

  19. 3 weeks ago
    OP

    Disregarding everything I've said, I suck glocks

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Are you well OP, you keep posting insults to yourself and then respond to them in an urbane fashion

  20. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    Sometimes even on the same page:
    https://www.conservapedia.com/Volodymyr_Zelensky

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      oof, how the narrative shifts

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        [...]
        Sometimes even on the same page:
        https://www.conservapedia.com/Volodymyr_Zelensky

        conservapedia is satyre trolling.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >During his time as a comedian, Zelensky was making pro-Nazi jokes that had anti-Semitic and Russophobic content in which the majority of his audience was not laughing and did not seem comfortable.[27]

      Uh, can I get that President here?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Zelensky was making pro-Nazi jokes that had anti-Semitic and Russophobic content in which the majority of his audience was not laughing and did not seem comfortable.[27]
        Damn he is literally me.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >conservapedia
      If you're going to post lolcow websites, at least rank them. Vox is up there.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I can do one better.

      https://www.conservapedia.com/Gonzalo_Lira

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >https://www.conservapedia.com/Myrotvorets

        And in the most schizo shit I've ever seen:

        https://www.conservapedia.com/Myrotvorets

        >Myrotvorets (English: Peacemaker) is an online database of what its owner declares as “enemies of Ukraine,” containing personal doxxing information and addresses. The website's mainpage lists Langley, Virginia, home of the CIA, and Warsaw, Poland as its official home. Journalists who depart from the CIA and Kyiv party line are added to the list. Anyone captured in Ukraine whose name appears in the websites online searchable database can be executed on the spot.[1]
        >On May 27, 2022, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was added to the kill list after Kissinger, speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos, suggested that fully antagonizing Russia threatens stability in Europe.
        >Hungarian President Victor Orban is on the assassination list.[87]

        Holy fuck, the Ukies are planning to cap Kissinger? How the fuck can they be so based bros?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >World Economic Forum
          Wait, I thought 4chan was against this?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Wait, I thought
            You see, that's where you went wrong. You were using your thinking parts to determine 4chan's opinions.
            Here's a better way:
            >no use think
            >instead current thing bad

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        [...]
        Sometimes even on the same page:
        https://www.conservapedia.com/Volodymyr_Zelensky

        >I am a communist yet I am a liberal. I am a white supremacist yet I support China. What am I?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          A beaver.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >I am a communist yet I am a liberal. I am a white supremacist yet I support China. What am I?
          Is the answer "the guy that 4chan thinks they're always arguing against"?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          A straw man.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            yes, "Coach" "Redpill" is controlled opposition, how did you know?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/VntEmBW.jpg

      I can do one better.

      https://www.conservapedia.com/Gonzalo_Lira

      From the front page
      >In the News. what the MSM isn't fully covering.
      >Russia captures first mighty Leopard 2 Wunderwaffen. [2]
      And their source is this 12 hour long video from some Indian news channel.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >12 hour video
        >It's literally the same few sentences on fucking repeat
        >Only source is some tweet
        >A tweet that later got deleted
        >Probably referring to that fucking tweet that got outed as being from years before the war.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      What's this supposed to imply exactly?
      Do these retards understand what Person of the Year is even about?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Hitler Drank Water Too: The Argument

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          They conveniently forget to mention Putin also shares that distinction

          I thought the same thing, it's such a weird thing to bring up.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They conveniently forget to mention Putin also shares that distinction

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Anon, I'd like to try and give you some perspective. Consider that sentence that you posted. You singled it out because it triggered (no offense) something, it was just so ridiculous, right? But take a step back and consider this - the entire post, and the entire website is exactly the same.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        https://i.imgur.com/sWeEGje.jpg

        >Hitler Drank Water Too: The Argument

        [...]
        I thought the same thing, it's such a weird thing to bring up.

        I’m TIME’s person of the year 2006 edition and I drink water. Fucking yeah I’m basically Hitler. Kneel before me.

  21. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >ukrainians are antisemitic nazi horde
    >ukrainians are garden gnomes and trans-lovers

  22. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I’m almost certain Russia is sending their best to spearhead advances in Bakhmut. Look at how successful their attacks everywhere else have been. It makes no sense that Russia’s biggest advances are done with garbage troops assaulting prepared positions.

  23. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i reckon ukraine will be defeated in 2 more weeks, imo.

  24. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Yes yes and Russia will be out of equipment by spring. Two weeks until Moscow bros! Christ what has happened to PrepHole? We could be talking about IDEX 2023 and the Polaris RZR. Or BAE getting full production contract to produce the ACV (and variants). Or how Pakistan is making the Haider (local variant of the Chinese VT4). But no, we're talking about how Ukraine is totes going to win bros, two more weeks, Russia is FINISHED it's OVER.

  25. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The ISW assesses that the Ukrainian's are enticed by the opportunity to inflict losses on elite elements of Wagner and regular Russian forces. What do we think?
    I think it's good
    >US advisors still seem opposed to delaying withdrawal from the city
    Wrong.
    Is it possible that Zelensky is valuing Bakhmut for optics/political reasons over strategic?
    It is not.

    The forces Ukraine is deploying to defend Bakhmut (infantry) is different and separate from the forces it's accumulating for the counter-attack (armor and mechanized forces). Meanwhile Russia is expending in Bakhmut the very forces that otherwise would be reinforcing its defensive lines and pose a serious obstable to the Ukrainian counteroffensive (conventional infantry). This is a winning trade for Ukraine.

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      For what it's worth the US also advised against committing resources to holding the Russians in Bakhmut and organizing new offensive operations at the same time. I think there is a general concern that the Ukranian lines don't have enough depth and a bad slip up could mean a significant Russian breakthrough. US is probably being overly cautious as other anons have mentioned.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Arguably preventing a propaganda victory for Russia has some strategic merit of it's own. More than just about anything Russia needs something they can point to as a success. For the moment at best they can point to is Soledar. Just about anyone can agree at this point that Bakhmut could fall today and at this point it would still be the very definition of a Pyrrhic victory for Russia, but if Ukraine is capable of depriving Russia even that much, it is a propaganda victory of it's own for Ukraine.

      I'm of the opinion that if they're capable of putting pressure on the Russia flanks successfully preventing Russia from completing the encirclement that it's probably worth keeping some forces there for as long as the trade remains favorable.

      Supposedly Russia is going back to their regular bi-annual conscription sometime in April. Figure they apparently normally take in roughly 130,000 fresh conscripts around that time. You gotta wonder if they'll be able to scrounge up that many bodies so soon after the mobilization in the fall.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Its funny how it's obvious to anyone with more than 5 braincells that zelensky is sending additional meat to bakhmut because thus has a kd of prb 5 to 10.
        Ofc he can't say it publicly that's why he's making up some strategic goal.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >source dude trust me lmao.
          See you in two more weeks tovarish.

  26. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Army staff told him they can hold it, so he's not ordering a withdrawal. Simple as.

  27. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I don't know why everyone acts like Bakhmut is some decisive final battle, or even that important really.
    Russia is still dozens of Bakhmuts away from victory. Why not just sit around and bleed them until the last moment, you can just fall back to the many easily defendable positions right next door? If they want to waste a bunch of lives on nothing, let them

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      It wont decide the conflict, I think we all agree on that. Mostly it's just a big hot spot after months of relative stagnation. As another anon mentioned it's dubious to speculate on either sides longevity, and likely if the war focuses too much on attrition we may unfortunately see Ukraine turn into a kind of Syria.

  28. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Maybe Ukies are preparing for spring maneuvers and are banking on Bakhmut holding and buying them time?

  29. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The eurocuck economies are running out of time. The hohols are running out of conscript meatshields. Russia has lots and lots of time. And they just keep firing. They'll do this forever.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      General Winter is coming eurocucks. Trust the plan, just two more weeks.

  30. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I just don't care anymore. I've had a year of watching illiterate Russians getting obliterated by commercial drones while one offensive after another bogs down. It's just the same thing again and again. I don't know how anyone else really cares anymore at this point either.

  31. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >ISW
    Lmao, openly funded (and controlled) by Washington.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Lmao, openly funded (and controlled) by Washington.

      IIRC ISW is run by Victoria Nudelmann's (aka Nuland) husband Kagan. Its not just Washington controlled, its a mouthpiece for neoconservative garden gnomes.

  32. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    [...]
    >ukrainians are antisemitic nazi horde
    >ukrainians are garden gnomes and trans-lovers

    [...]
    Sometimes even on the same page:
    https://www.conservapedia.com/Volodymyr_Zelensky

    https://i.imgur.com/wYRY7te.png

    [...]
    >I am a communist yet I am a liberal. I am a white supremacist yet I support China. What am I?

    It's dialectics, thesis-anti-thesis-synthesis. It's real communist shit, you guys just don't get it.

  33. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Does anyone have the pic of the artillery shell with the giant shit inside of it?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous
  34. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    > Recruitment from prisons has been discontinued, with claims that there are not enough prisoners still incarcerated to backfill personnel gaps in any new recruitment drive.

    Russia's endless supply of men.....

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