The A-4 Skyhawk with the AGM bullpup over Vietnam. They were manually aimed.

The A-4 Skyhawk with the AGM bullpup over Vietnam

They were manually aimed. Used a joystick and had to be initially aimed with the wienerpit which made them harder to operate although they could make close to medium range engagements because of this, whereas many modern agms are intended for longer range engagements. Although heavily critiqued, this is a rarely acknowledged advantage the AGM bullpup had when flying over the hills of Vietnam. What went wrong? Is the AGM-65 capable of manuerving downward the same way or is that seen as something completely unnecessary especially in an age of growing missile threats?
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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Is the AGM-65 capable of manuerving downward
    An AGM-65 can manouver to hit anything the seeker can be pointed at.
    IIRC they are usually boresighted to look slightly down rather than the horizon to avoid having the aircraft have to dive directly at the target to lock the seeker on it.

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      How does that helicopter maintain balance in flight?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Its being flown

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You got it wrong.
        The helicopter is being towed by the F-100.
        It only looks like the other way around because the aeroplane is pitching down to land.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >this is a rarely acknowledged advantage
    It's not an actual advantage, as modern AGMs have fairly short minranges as a side effect of their high performance engines and control surfaces.
    In any case, you need to end up in some ungodly situation to even consider using AGMs up close: you're in a fricking aircraft easily doing 600+ mph, even if you stray too close returning to ideal distance can be done in a couple minutes tops.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      but the AGM-12C and we have FLIR now

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Wtf are you trying to say?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Optics and seeker on what was already a maneuverable weapon suited for combat in that type of terrain. It did not leave service until the early 80s. It is neat and I am wondering if a need for this type of missile will arise again in the future.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >spot target from high altitude drone
            >mark target on datalink
            >jet pilot can fire in a lofting AGM without line of sight
            There is no good reason to get the very expensive jet (and its equally expensive pilot) right on top of the target, even for big fat bombs thar can't mount glide kits that's no longer acceptable and you're expected to lob it thanks to CCRP.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I see
              Interesting

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The point of AGMs is to give you standoff so you dont each small arms and flak. The problem they ran into with bullpups was the practical effective range was much shorter than its on paper range because they were manually guided. That meant they had to fly pretty close to the target and inevitably get lit up by 23mm AA cannons. Mavs aren't terribly long range but they do outrange all that shit.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    "After launching the Bullpup, best accuracy was maintained by continuing to fly the same track, so that the pilot could sight down the smoke trail and steer the missile from directly behind as much as possible. Unfortunately, one problem quickly discovered by pilots in Vietnam was that gunners on the ground could simply fire at the smoke trail of the missile's flare and have a fairly good chance of hitting the aircraft that had launched—and was still guiding—the missile. Thus, to try to protect their own aircraft, the pilot would "jig" slightly off of the missile's path and hopefully avoid the anti-aircraft fire"

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I literally don't understand the question.

    • 3 weeks ago
      OP

      i think these anons did a good job educating me however i still think the AGM-12C with FLIR could fill an extremely niche role in dense, steep foothills
      although there are probably enough somewhere

      >Is the AGM-65 capable of manuerving downward
      An AGM-65 can manouver to hit anything the seeker can be pointed at.
      IIRC they are usually boresighted to look slightly down rather than the horizon to avoid having the aircraft have to dive directly at the target to lock the seeker on it.

      >this is a rarely acknowledged advantage
      It's not an actual advantage, as modern AGMs have fairly short minranges as a side effect of their high performance engines and control surfaces.
      In any case, you need to end up in some ungodly situation to even consider using AGMs up close: you're in a fricking aircraft easily doing 600+ mph, even if you stray too close returning to ideal distance can be done in a couple minutes tops.

      The point of AGMs is to give you standoff so you dont each small arms and flak. The problem they ran into with bullpups was the practical effective range was much shorter than its on paper range because they were manually guided. That meant they had to fly pretty close to the target and inevitably get lit up by 23mm AA cannons. Mavs aren't terribly long range but they do outrange all that shit.

      >spot target from high altitude drone
      >mark target on datalink
      >jet pilot can fire in a lofting AGM without line of sight
      There is no good reason to get the very expensive jet (and its equally expensive pilot) right on top of the target, even for big fat bombs thar can't mount glide kits that's no longer acceptable and you're expected to lob it thanks to CCRP.

      You're a fast-moving flying aircraft, you can always choose to turn around and not get close and stay in the long range band of your AGMs.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I still don't get it. You understand you do not need to use Hellfires at max range? You can just go high and dunk them from above at close range?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Anon, the Bullpup doesn't HAVE a seeker, period, it has a bright ass flare in the ass that makes the missile visible during flight.
        The pilot has to keep his Mk.1 eyeballs on the missile during the entirety of the flight. And it was not at all a popular, or even good weapon.
        If you want a weapon with a seeker and man-in-the-loop guidance during flight, look at what replaced the Bullpup, the AGM-62 Walleye, which can be guided remotely during flight via datalink. And a more modern concept of a (optionally) manually guided standoff weapon is the SLAM-ER, which is basically an AGM-84 harpoon with datalink and the ability to switch targets mid-flight and have a terminal target acquisition through the seeker via datalink.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You're a fast-moving flying aircraft, you can always choose to turn around and not get close and stay in the long range band of your AGMs.

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