>Swords are the heroic weapon because they're expensive and difficult to make, and have no other purpose except being weapons, so only nobles ...

>Swords are the heroic weapon because they're expensive and difficult to make, and have no other purpose except being weapons, so only nobles or dedicated warriors had them
Isn't that also true of maces? I can't recall ever hearing of a legendary mace.

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  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Your starting with a false premise
    >only nobles etc had them
    No. Swords came in a variety of prices and workmanship, most of the surviving swords today are the higher end ones because they were better looked after and handed down.
    There certainly were cheaper swords available to the masses. Although they are impractical as an every mans self defence tool for say, travelling or what not, instead a short sword was common.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      There are litteral TONNES of shit/mid swords found. What the frick are you talking about?
      You just cannot make blanket statements like that.
      It depends on CONTEXT, what area and time are we fricking talking about?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        your responding to the wrong guy, the gut you responded with literally agrees with you and you say hes wrong because he is right.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Goddamn it... I'll just go to bed. Nothing is going well today.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            are you ok man?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's not even true that most of the surviving swords are higher end, tons of archaeology done in my area has huge amount of falchion finds in many different conditions, I personally am working on bachelors thesis about 4 falchions found in a local castle ruin. And this applies to the whole country, although we also have a lot of two handers and the fancier swords as well.

      The simple explanation is that laymen (that is all of you or most of you here) don't get to see them because you would rather see some pretty examples in your museum, rather than rusty pieces of iron, sometimes only barely resembling the sword shape.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >tons of archaeology done in my area has huge amount of falchion finds in many different conditions, I personally am working on bachelors thesis about 4 falchions found in a local castle ruin. And this applies to the whole country,

        I just had someone tag me a link to this thread because of your post.

        I would be extremely interested in you getting in contact with me regarding those falchions, to study and to contextualise. (even if you're Polish, where "falchion" is often used for what I'd usually describe as messers. If they're sword-like single-edged arms, I'm interested regardless, as they have a clear archaeological context.) I've been working on the subject for way too fricking long, and have done consultancy for multiple international museums on them. alongside more than a few people's PhDs now.

        you can get in contact with me on Myarmoury (JG Elmslie ), Facebook ( business page: /j.g.elmslie/ ) and yes, even on fricking r*ddit. ( u/J_G_E ), or you should be able to find my email watermarked on the bottom of many pictures online

        I hope you spot this,
        JGElmslie.

        • 1 week ago
          Anonymous

          I may contact you, but no promises, since people (archaeologists, museums and bureaus) in my country are pretty stingy about these finds, not to mention that I don't have the authority or the documentation to show them to you. But if I manage to get it all approved and ready, we may cooperate in the future (that is, if I contact you by the end of the next year).

          I checked out your typology and it looks good, so for now I wish you good luck on your endeavours!

          • 1 week ago
            Anonymous

            That's entirely understood - and glad you've at least seen the message and will consider it.

            Even if its just a message of "there's 4 falchions from the X century, they were found in Y castle in Z country", that's enough for me to start the work on my own to trace them through my connections with the various European museums and curators I've worked with. Doesn't matter which country - if its another one I haven't been to, that's just another language to have to learn.

            If you were able to send pictures and information, I would be happy to assist with your thesis as a specialist consultant on the subject, but if you cant, just the knowledge they exist and where to look will be enough for me to start with. I've had to deal with national-level museums in the UK, US, France, Germany, Croatia, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, Austria, and I've had to do plenty of delicate work, including stuff like assessments of entire museum collections to identify which ones on display were fakes, so, I'm more than familiar with having to deal with difficult agencies.

            If there are four of them, and they are medieval in dating, that's nearly a 10% increase in the number of known surviving examples worldwide. (there's a lot more from 1500 and later, but pre-1500 are rare as hell.) So these four examples would be a gold mine of data for me.

            Also, given your description, I'm guessing one of the central European nations - Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, or Slovenia - so if these falchions are closer to the more messer-like types, take a look for Petr Žákovský's PhD paper "Tesáky a problematika jednosecných zbraní
            stredoveku a raného novoveku" (2014), for Czech examples, and look at the published works of Tomaž Nabergoj - particularly "Poznosrednjeveški in zgodnjenovoveški enorezni meči (messer)
            in bojni noži (bauernwehr) iz Ljubljanice" (2019) for Slovenian examples. They'll likely be of valuable use for your own paper.

            Best of luck.

            • 1 week ago
              Anonymous

              > Doesn't matter which country - if its another one I haven't been to, that's just another language to have to learn.
              Could you possibly be more of a R*dditor?!
              What an annoying pompous blowhard.
              Eternal lmao at the "Elmslie Typology."

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                >Hurr. Learning forrin language HARD!

                Just because you're the lowest common denominator of effort and intellect doesn't mean the rest of us have to aspire to your levels of mediocrity.

                and if you find it so hilariously bad, Like I say every time, you are welcome to do a better job. And I'll promote it as better than my version.

                and no,

                https://i.imgur.com/UhBjJEb.jpeg

                anon, don't contact that homosexual. He'll probably steal your results for reddit gold.

                that guy will not have "results" stolen for "reddit gold". (you seem awfully obsessed about that site.)
                He would be credited just like every other one from the museums, the private collectors, churches and auction houses who have assisted in the search for the extant examples. If published, he'll be cited in the text.

          • 1 week ago
            Anonymous

            anon, don't contact that homosexual. He'll probably steal your results for reddit gold.

            • 1 week ago
              Anonymous
    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      this.

      the idea that only nobles had swords is fundamentally flawed.
      they were limited in a few periods - early iron age, the economic and trade collapse at the end of the roman period, through to the early Viking age, a few points in the upheavals in japanese society, times like that.
      Otherwise, swords were being produced in mass quantities, and were a major staple of trade routes internationally.

      to use european swords as an example, by the 14th century, we have british records of swords costing tens of pounds (in an age when one pound was more than most people made in a month), we also have swords costing a single penny. is somewhat right, in that the richer swords tend to survive. That is analogous to high-end cars. Ford made 15 million model T's, about 100,000 survive. Bently in the same period made about 750 cars. About 400 of them survive.
      Higher-quality or more valuable stuff always has a survivor bias.

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Schaefer's Hammer

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I’m not an expert in historical weapons, but from what I’ve heard, the availability of swords varied hugely over time. I presume they were fairly common in Roman times, because of all the ones being used in the legions (though I think both early and late rome used primarily spears, and some spears were retained even in the intermediate period). I’ve heard that they were fairly rare during medieval times, but by the Renaissance, they were fairly common, though usually as sidearms except in the case of greatswords.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They had falchions in the Middle Ages as a cheap sword option

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Falchions were used by Kings. Not exclusively, of course, but there were high ranking men with them.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Wrong.
        Falchions (per se) were used by knights to chop unarmored opponents (peasants) into pieces. They had very thin blades, even in today's standards, so it wasn't very easy to make one I imagine.

        You probably confuse falchions with Langes messer and Bauernwehr (not sure if there's english word for those swords). They looked similiar at first glance, but they were more crude, thick and had knife-like hilt. Pic rleated.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >(not sure if there's english word for those swords).

          there isn't (or at least, none that has been passed down to us) - Messer types never properly reached the British isles, and instead we seem to have had our own ethnic equivalents fulfilling the same role - both in knife-sized stuff, and larger ones with early hangars.
          (always fun to call the British "ethnic" BTW, it drives the gammons up the wall.)

          From what I know, there's only about 4 bauernwehr known to have been found in the British isles - one in Hull, a couple from London - chances are they' arrived on ships with trade with the Hansa league - possibly not even as trade goods, but personal items. Though that is of course speculation. So they're incredibly unusual in the UK.

          What's interesting is that British knives develop a style of copper-alloy quillon dagger with a side projection like the nagel - so its clear that the design is functional, but they wanted to do it their own way, instead of like messers.

    • 1 week ago
      Anonymous

      in the early roman army on the elites the Triarii used spears, the hastati and principes used swords like the xiphos, or gladius. Proto rome probably fought like greeks, and late roman armies, did absolutely use the spear primarily. But also they had migrated to cavalry as the key in their armies anyways.

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    the Club of Hercules?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      This. The greatest hero of the ancient world used a club and a bow.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Heracles was famous for using a club, but was the club itself anything special? As far as I can remember the myths never mentioned anything special about the club. In fact, IIRC, one of Hercules' labors was to kill the Nemean Lion, a magical beast with impenetrable skin. Because he couldn't stab the lion with a sword or spear or shoot it with arrows--all weapons he is shown with in ancient artwork--Hercules used an olive-wood club to beat it over the head. While the myths talk about the lion's skin being magically impenetrable they don't say anything at all about the club.

        This is a case of a legendary hero who used a club, not a legendary club.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That was just an euphemism for his fat fvking dick.

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Does the jawbone Samson beat a bunch of guys to death with count?
    Failing that, in Hindu myth Hanuman uses a mace, and Shiva's trident is sometimes depicted as a skull-topped club.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >I can't recall ever hearing of a legendary mace.
      There are several in Hindu mythology. There's at least one example in Lord of the Rings: the battering ram Grond was named after Morgoth's mace. Various kinds of clubs were a thing in Asia, like the Chinese Chui and Japanese Kanabo. , there might be legendary versions of those. I know it's common for Eastern art to depict Yama, King of the Underworld, with a massive club or mace.

      >Hindu mythology
      Gada – A mace used by the Monkey God Hanuman
      Kaladanda – a special and lethal club used by the God Yama or God of Naraka or Hell in Hindu mythology. It was the ultimate weapon; once fired it would kill anybody before it no matter what boons he had to protect himself.
      Kaumodaki – The Gada (mace) of the Hindu god Vishnu.
      Mace of Bhima – A club that was presented by Mayasura. It was a weapon of Danavas King Vrishaparva.
      There's probably more.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I'm reading the wiki on Relics in Hinduism and holy crap, I never knew it was such an epic RPG religion, this stuff legit reads like the lore of some dark epic game like dark souls

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >this stuff legit reads like the lore of some dark epic game like dark souls
          Yep. Go look up the goddess Chhinnamasta for example.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Hindu myth is batshit crazy, yeah.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >this stuff legit reads like the lore of some dark epic game like dark souls
          Yep. Go look up the goddess Chhinnamasta for example.

          Hindu myth is batshit crazy, yeah.

          holy shit their pagan nonsense really is just a fricking jrpg that needs to be made into a vidya

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Way ahead of you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tON_T-HU2tE

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >this stuff legit reads like the lore of some dark epic game like dark souls
          Yep. Go look up the goddess Chhinnamasta for example.

          [...]
          [...]
          holy shit their pagan nonsense really is just a fricking jrpg that needs to be made into a vidya

          Way ahead of you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tON_T-HU2tE

          >Holy shit saars, hinduism is totally relatable and just like a JRPG! You should totally look up about hinduism saars and do the needful and read about indian mythology and humanize indians and this is totally makes us a unique culture like Japan that YOU should be interested do the needful saars!

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah that's the energy I got from that post too. They're too autistic to hide it. Even the troons and ukie shills do a better job of pretending to be a normal white American

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        There's Fereydun's Bull-headed mace that shows up frequently in Iranian mythology.
        The mace is a Div (demon) Killer, White Elephant Slayer, and Ahriman's subduer/bonker.

        Iranians and Indians loved using maces.

        I'm reading the wiki on Relics in Hinduism and holy crap, I never knew it was such an epic RPG religion, this stuff legit reads like the lore of some dark epic game like dark souls

        When you get a chance, look up Iranian mythology as well.
        Read the Shanameh, the basis for the One Thousand and One Nights.

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >I can't recall ever hearing of a legendary mace.
    There are several in Hindu mythology. There's at least one example in Lord of the Rings: the battering ram Grond was named after Morgoth's mace. Various kinds of clubs were a thing in Asia, like the Chinese Chui and Japanese Kanabo. , there might be legendary versions of those. I know it's common for Eastern art to depict Yama, King of the Underworld, with a massive club or mace.

    • 1 week ago
      Anonymous

      >it's common for Eastern art to depict Yama, King of the Underworld, with a massive club or mace.

      [...]
      >Hindu mythology
      Gada – A mace used by the Monkey God Hanuman
      Kaladanda – a special and lethal club used by the God Yama or God of Naraka or Hell in Hindu mythology. It was the ultimate weapon; once fired it would kill anybody before it no matter what boons he had to protect himself.
      Kaumodaki – The Gada (mace) of the Hindu god Vishnu.
      Mace of Bhima – A club that was presented by Mayasura. It was a weapon of Danavas King Vrishaparva.
      There's probably more.

      >Kaladanda – a special and lethal club used by the God Yama or God of Naraka or Hell in Hindu mythology

      There was a lot of crossover in beliefs there. And yeah, King Yama or maybe just some big scary oni or demon being depicted with a big spiked club is as common in art as the idea of the Christian devil with a pitchfork.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Maces tended to be more a thing of royalty and office.
    It's why we have ceremonial maces today.

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Isn't that also true of maces? I can't recall ever hearing of a legendary mace.
    well, how many legendary swords can you name without a google search? I've got, like, three, and none of them technically existed

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Not him, I'm the guy who mentioned dark souls a couple posts ago. But I'm a Bong and I know of only 1 legendary sword THE legendary sword. We all know the story of a sword called Excalibre, how its blade was fixed in stone.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I can name a handful if we're talking about old school mythology or historical swords. Excalibur, Tyrfing, Gram, El Cid's sword (forgot its name), Masamune, Murasame, Tsurugi, Durandal, Caladbolg, unnamed but massive swords made for Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

        If we're including more recent fiction then there's a bunch more. Lightsabers. Sword of Shannara. Sword of Gryffindor. Buster Sword, the Dragon Slayer form Berzerk, a whole bunch in LoTR, even more in D&D, Vorpal.

        >doesnt mention the sword of mars the horseBlack folk prayed to
        Pathetic

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          They both mentioned Excalibur tho
          Where did you think the Arthurian knights came from?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I can name a handful if we're talking about old school mythology or historical swords. Excalibur, Tyrfing, Gram, El Cid's sword (forgot its name), Masamune, Murasame, Tsurugi, Durandal, Caladbolg, unnamed but massive swords made for Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

      If we're including more recent fiction then there's a bunch more. Lightsabers. Sword of Shannara. Sword of Gryffindor. Buster Sword, the Dragon Slayer form Berzerk, a whole bunch in LoTR, even more in D&D, Vorpal.

      • 1 week ago
        Anonymous

        All medieval weapons were specefically designed to be weapons. You can't reallistically cut a tree with a Battle Axe or hit Nails with a mace.

        >El Cid's sword
        Tizona

      • 1 week ago
        Anonymous

        > Durandal
        Too soon man. Too soon. T_T

        • 1 week ago
          Anonymous

          Hopefully it doesn't end up sharing the fate of Nelson's chelengk.

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Swords are heroic because there's more skill to using them, especially when used unarmored which they mostly were. Hammers, axes and picks just aren't as subtle.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mythological_objects

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I've always gravitated towards maces
    bashing works good
    don't have to worry about landing the edge just right to do a proper strike
    just bash away in a frenzy

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Newb here. Are those warhammers or military picks?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Warhammers.
      IRL, warhammers aren't bricks of steel that weight as much as the user.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That's for braking the skull buddeh

  13. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Swords have no other purpose except being weapons
    fake and gay

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I mean in the screenshot you posted he specifically talks about misusing swords.
      I could make the same moronic argument as you are doing by proclaiming that I use my revolver to open beer cans and to hammer in nails, which means that revolvers DO have other purposes except being weapons.

      Someone post the picture of that fat cop using the business end of his shotgun as buttplug.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_sword

  14. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >I can't recall ever hearing of a legendary mace.
    Vajra

  15. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >a warhammer is not just a weapond because you could use it for carpentry
    Huh?

  16. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    That's barely true in like the 6th century when everything briefly went to shit, or maybe pre antiquity
    But it's complete codshit really, by high medieval era it was really quite easy to get a sword

  17. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The mace is a graceless weapon. All the weight is at the head. This gives them more impact but means it's slower to accelerate or divert. Maces also tend to be shorter than their sword equivalents. This means the mace is favored by physically strong and well armored fighters, in other words the wealthy that ate meat every day since they were weaned and able to afford the best armor. The technique is also brain dead. No edge alignment, no managing the distance, no aiming for weakpoints. Just get right up to an opponent and start swinging.

    The Mace is used by rich men to beat down poorer men. Nothing heroic about it.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >The Mace is used by rich men to beat down poorer men
      It was also used by those too poor to afford a sword as their sidearm. Does this cast copper mace head look like a weapon reserved for nobility? It was probably the most affordable battlefield weapon in history.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        A poor man would go with an axe, hammer, or spear. Things he may have on hand already. A mace was a luxury as it was only good for armored opponents.

        As for your macehead? It's actually quite complex. Sure, it looks like shit but that's because it was lying in the dirt for who knows how long. Two thousand years? Three thousand years? More? All we can tell is that there are three alternating rings of protrusions. Those nubs could very well have been spikes or even little faces.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It’s not complex at all, it’s a casting. That’s very simple for a casting, and can even be made with sand, using a wooden model. You know nothing about manufacturing. A copper casting would have cost MUCH less than an iron/steel axe throughout nearly all of history. If this mace were expensive, it would have been forged from steel like a horseman’s mace.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >using a wooden model
            No, there's no place on that part where you could put the parting line to take the mold apart. There's no way you could remove the pattern from the sand without destroying it. It could have been lost-wax cast though.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Don't even need to go that far in all honesty, cutting down a sturdy tree limb will make a very servicible club that is effective against armour. In fact, dueing sieges, was common for combatants to go fetch down a good knotted limb to start conbat with in order to preserve their weapons, since weapons break in extended combat with frightening regularity.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >It was probably the most affordable battlefield weapon in history.
        dual use farming implements were, my dude.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Copper is still stolen by methheads for scrap value today you moron. It's more expensive by weight than iron.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >no managing the distance, no aiming for weakpoints
      If you believe this, then you have never used a mace.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Let me ask you this, why bring a Mace when you can bring a Hammer? A hammer does all the things a Mace does and more. A war hammer can even mount a spike on the back for piercing armor. The only reason to bring a mace is because you can't do edge alignment. In short, it's the weapon of an unskilled brute.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Let me ask you this, why bring a Mace when you can bring a Hammer? A hammer does all the things a Mace does and more. A war hammer can even mount a spike on the back for piercing armor. The only reason to bring a mace is because you can't do edge alignment. In short, it's the weapon of an unskilled brute.

      >The mace is a graceless weapon
      >The technique is also brain dead
      Armchair theory isn't fact. Maces may have a lower skill ceiling, but you still need a degree of skill to use one effectively.

      >This means the mace is favored by physically strong and well armored fighters
      No, the mace was used throughout history by various people of different backgrounds and social classes.

      >This gives them more impact but means it's slower to accelerate or divert
      Which means you need a modicum of skill to be able to strike in combination using the momentum and being able to redirect blows efficiently without wasting energy.

      >Maces also tend to be shorter than their sword
      >no managing the distance
      >Just get right up to an opponent
      You have to manage distance better BECAUSE you have a shorter weapon, armor or no armor.

      >no aiming for weakpoints
      >start swinging
      Armor is designed to deflect blows. You still need to purposefully target your blows lest they glance off because you were swinging like a moron.

      >why bring a Mace when you can bring a Hammer
      >A hammer does all the things a Mace does and more
      Being able to do more isn't always an advantage. A hammer is more likely to get caught or stuck in something than a mace is.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        This is all correct and reasonable. I literally have nothing to add to this. Might as well /thread here folks.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        > Being able to do more isn't always an advantage. A hammer is more likely to get caught or stuck in something than a mace is.
        It can be ridiculously easy to grab your opponent's hammer, and then give it a good yank from a well-supported position. The one-handed hammer is a pretty shitty weapon, unless its wielder really knows what he's doing.
        Maces are actually better. Even more straightforward to use, and it's usually harder to disarm a mace user.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Which means you need a modicum of skill to be able to strike in combination using the momentum and being able to redirect blows efficiently without wasting energy.
        Not really. Someone of equal skill would be faster with a sword or spear. This meant that you HAD to have armor or a shield since if you came up against someone as skilled or more skilled than yourself and wasn't welding a mace you were getting hit.

        >You have to manage distance better BECAUSE you have a shorter weapon, armor or no armor.
        You play distance games with that kind of disadvantage and you'll lose far, far too often. Sword and spear techniques have you weaving in and out of reach but the mace is so short that this isn't practical. Instead you need to reduce the distance as much as possible and stay at practically grappling range.

        >Armor is designed to deflect blows. You still need to purposefully target your blows lest they glance off because you were swinging like a moron.
        If that's the case you're better off with an axe. An axe focuses the force of the impact in a smaller surface area, making the armor tend to dent and crumple more. Maces and warhammers try to transfer energy Through the armor, essentially slamming the armor into the wearer.

        >A hammer is more likely to get caught or stuck in something than a mace is.
        That's a feature, not a bug. Just like a billhook or halberd, it's better to pin down a well armored opponent than trade blows with him.

        > Being able to do more isn't always an advantage. A hammer is more likely to get caught or stuck in something than a mace is.
        It can be ridiculously easy to grab your opponent's hammer, and then give it a good yank from a well-supported position. The one-handed hammer is a pretty shitty weapon, unless its wielder really knows what he's doing.
        Maces are actually better. Even more straightforward to use, and it's usually harder to disarm a mace user.

        So...you're saying that maces are a low skill weapon?

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >An axe focuses the force of the impact in a smaller surface area, making the armor tend to dent and crumple more
          This consideration is the likely reason for studded and flanged maces, and hammers with ''teeth'' ie short blunt projecting points on the striking face.

          Also worth noting is that a lot of maces were very short and seemingly designed to be wieldy in a tight spot. I think the reason for this might be that they were used by mounted men to bash in the heads of footsoldiers who tried to grab the reins or rider. An iron club to the top of the head from a mounted opponent would be pretty brutal whether or not you were wearing a helmet.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >This consideration is the likely reason for studded and flanged maces, and hammers with ''teeth'' ie short blunt projecting points on the striking face.
            Entirely possible but an axe would still be better for getting into weakpoints than a mace. All those flanges makes the weapon wider and harder to get into gaps.

            >Also worth noting is that a lot of maces were very short and seemingly designed to be wieldy in a tight spot. I think the reason for this might be that they were used by mounted men to bash in the heads of footsoldiers who tried to grab the reins or rider. An iron club to the top of the head from a mounted opponent would be pretty brutal whether or not you were wearing a helmet.
            I'd go so far as to call this Probable but it also feeds into my narrative of a rich but unskilled brute striking people smaller and not as well equiped than himself.

            A useful weapon, sure, but graceless.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              That may be the case but the design of maces is intended to maximise the effect of the hits you get, which because of their natural downward motion are in most cases to already vulnerable areas like the collar and upper back/neck or skull. A typical thin bladed fighting axe won't have the same impact. They also weren't primary weapons in most cases. A mounted man at arms would be a skilled horse rider and lancer before maces enter the equation. They were obviously made and used to handle men in armour, so not sure where you're getting a richgay vs poorgay narrative from, at least any more than any other weapon of the time. William of Normandy is depicted at various points wielding either a club or sword on the Bayeaux tapestry.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Not really
          >Someone of equal skill would be faster with a sword or spear
          That doesn't invalidate anything I said.

          >This meant that you HAD to have armor or a shield
          Explain all the primitive cultures who didn't have armor that still preferred to use clubs when they had access to blades and spears.

          >Instead you need to reduce the distance as much as possible and stay at practically grappling range.
          And you can't do any of that without having to enter in their range. A mace user has to be far enough away where they can't be hit, wade through a range where they can be hit and can't hit them back, and then finally get into the range where they can hit strike. If a mace person does that, then they've got superior distance management to the person who had the greater reach.

          >If that's the case you're better off with an axe
          >An axe focuses the force of the impact in a smaller surface area
          Historical combat axes were quite thin and light compared to tool axes. They weren't meant to be anti-armor weapons at all nor would they have been good at it. Once again, headcanon isn't fact.

          >That's a feature, not a bug.
          No it's a double edged sword. Getting stuck in armor is good when you want to pin them down. Not so good when it gets stuck and you can't remove it.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >That doesn't invalidate anything I said.
            It does because armor was and still is expensive. Having good armor meant you were rich and the mace was the weapon of a Rich Man.

            >Explain all the primitive cultures who didn't have armor that still preferred to use clubs when they had access to blades and spears.
            I think the fact that they're primitive cultures kinda undermines your point. That being said, we see maces used as a symbol of Authority because they were tools of OPPRESSION. Obviously ancient kings loved them, they ruled by fear and violence!

            >And you can't do any of that without having to enter in their range. A mace user has to be far enough away where they can't be hit, wade through a range where they can be hit and can't hit them back, and then finally get into the range where they can hit strike. If a mace person does that, then they've got superior distance management to the person who had the greater reach.
            That's not distance management. That's just speed. Absolutely graceless.

            >Historical combat axes were quite thin and light compared to tool axes. They weren't meant to be anti-armor weapons at all nor would they have been good at it. Once again, headcanon isn't fact.
            Physics says this is bullshit. A tool axe is heavier, yes, but that just means it hits harder and is more suitable for dealing with armor. War axes were lighter so they could be longer without exhausting the user. Tool axes are still effective weapons and Vikings were notorious for using the same axes in both combat and ship building.

            >No it's a double edged sword. Getting stuck in armor is good when you want to pin them down. Not so good when it gets stuck and you can't remove it.
            A double edged sword suggest that the Hammer was a higher skill weapon than the mace and that you'd only use the mace because you could not manage the hammer's tendency to hook onto opponents.

            • 1 week ago
              Anonymous

              >the mace was the weapon of a Rich Man.
              A metal mace is just a more durable version of a wooden club, which would be a weapon almost anyone could access. Metal ones would have been more expensive, but probably not prohibitively so.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                It's not the mace that's expensive, it's the armor you need to make the mace practical. You're definitely going to take hits from spears, swords, and even axes just getting in range and once you are you've got to stay inside that range while raining blow after blow down on a padded helmet. More than that, the mace is a dedicated anti-armor weapon so you're probably going to use it against the most armored and thus most valuable opponents. Even if your target isn't particularly skilled he'll have a bodyguard that'll cut you to pieces unless you had the very best armor around.

                And that armor costs money.

                >But what if you didn't buy that armor? What if you were given it for being a skilled combatant?

                Then what the hell are you doing with a low skill weapon like a mace? Take a warhammer, poleax, or halberd. Even a flail would be better since you'd look cool before getting yourself killed.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                Sounds like headcanon. Random town watch militia in the English civil war used clubs.b

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                They used clubs because they didn't want to kill anybody. Town watch are essentially riot police.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                They were groups of men fighting off press gangs and looting soldiers from their towns. They used a lot of weapons including repurposed agricultural tools but were known for using clubs. Other peasant forces like the Finnish rebels famously used clubs.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                >They were groups of men fighting off press gangs and looting soldiers from their towns.
                So criminals, basically. If you actually killed the press gangs and looters it would escalate the conflict and some captain or admiral would open fire with cannons or burn the town down.

                As for the goedendag, they were about 5 feet long. The Flemish even called them Spiked Staves. Functionally, they were closer to a spear than a mace. Even then they had to be used in conjunction with pikes to keep french knights from simply rolling them over with a lance charge.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                Most maces are metal-reinforced wood. A full on metal haft would be dick swinging cavalry money for that kinda b***h. You've broken so many of the things in a charge you needed a full on steel club to just hold out why you charge instead of trying to hit anyone with it, That shit would be a frickin sick cavalry mace. Nobody on foot would want to do that, it'd be like trying to swing a 20 pound sludge hammer. If you got a horse an momentum working for you. I mean a fricking dane axe would make more sense on foot. That's the kind of trade off where that thing was likely cavalry.

                It's not the mace that's expensive, it's the armor you need to make the mace practical. You're definitely going to take hits from spears, swords, and even axes just getting in range and once you are you've got to stay inside that range while raining blow after blow down on a padded helmet. More than that, the mace is a dedicated anti-armor weapon so you're probably going to use it against the most armored and thus most valuable opponents. Even if your target isn't particularly skilled he'll have a bodyguard that'll cut you to pieces unless you had the very best armor around.

                And that armor costs money.

                >But what if you didn't buy that armor? What if you were given it for being a skilled combatant?

                Then what the hell are you doing with a low skill weapon like a mace? Take a warhammer, poleax, or halberd. Even a flail would be better since you'd look cool before getting yourself killed.

                Humans have an endoskeleton frames, they're incredibly durable but a mace typical doesn't need to actually break those to really do damage, but it can and it should. It's a support structure, depending how bad it breaks, it can't move and other layers were damaged first. This is like saying a person can't get knocked out by a punch.

              • 1 week ago
                Anonymous

                >Humans have an endoskeleton frames, they're incredibly durable but a mace typical doesn't need to actually break those to really do damage, but it can and it should. It's a support structure, depending how bad it breaks, it can't move and other layers were damaged first. This is like saying a person can't get knocked out by a punch.
                You're going to have to explain the relevancy. I never claimed maces were ineffective, only that they were usually used by the rich and unskilled.

  18. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Depends on the wielder and the feats. Any weapon can be the cool heroic piece. Pic rel.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Axes often appeared in old myths and heroic stories.

      >He went to the forge and said, ..’I will give orders to the armourers; they shall cast us our weapons while we watch them.’ So they gave orders to the armourers and the craftsmen sat down in conference. They went into the groves of the plain and cut willow and box-wood; they cast for them axes of nine score pounds, and great swords they cast with blades of six score pounds each one, with pommels and hilts of thirty pounds. They cast for Gilgamesh the axe ‘Might of Heroes’ and the bow of Anshan; and Gilgamesh was armed and Enkidu; and the weight of the arms they carried was thirty score pounds.

  19. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Dora anyone make quality repros of medieval maces or modern ones that don't suck?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >quality repros of medieval maces
      Tod Cutler makes quality historically accurate ones, though I think he mainly does European styles so you might have to look elsewhere if you want something that's Eastern in design.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I got a factory second of a flanged mace from "cold steel" for funsies. It goes through thinner gage plate without much effort. too heavy to be a good poking stick like I can reach that or is that dead? An axe might work better. wanna bonk something, it will work so much better than you expect Don't play around trying to use it as a reaching stick if you don't want to bonk it. It does bonk really good and you can't unbock things you bonk.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I mean gingeraly playing around with a bonk it's gonna be a bonk, you can't unbonk things you bonk it with. It's gonna leave a dinger. People think they can run around like super humans with broken bones like a chicken with it's head cut off and shit but I aint ever seen it. They're gonna seethe and retreat. A good bonk works wonders. and no a fricking anti-plate armor mace isn't over kill for fighting a person their bones are natural armor and they aint working right when they are fricked up.

  20. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >only nobles or dedicated warriors had them
    This is a stupid and gay myth. It started with "swords are overrepresented in media, there was tons of other weapons on the battlefield too!" and it somehow progressed to a ton of people thinking that swords were a meme weapon that barely even existed and were almost never used. Its nonsense, swords were very common

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Welcome to chilis guy khs

  21. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    steel was expensive before industrial revolution - and good smiths were rare enough to be sought by noble houses - basic peasant had other needs like iron tools, axe, plough, sickle, saw, horseshoes nails and so on...
    sword needed good steel and substantial amount of it, on top of that a smith that knew what's hes doing
    on top of that there were laws that forbid owning of weapons by non noble classes - hence grossemessers and such were produced that were tools that looked like weapons by chance (no really its not a sword its a big knife)

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Your wrong on so many counts
      >swords were of high quality
      No, not all of them were, there was a whole range of price and quality from bottom to top, the reason most of the swords we have today are the finer examples is because theybwere talen care of and handed down, preserved etc.
      There were shit blades too for poors.
      >need a good smith
      No, actually we have plenty of examples to show there was plenty of shit craftsmanship and cheap crap
      >laws that forbid the carrying of weapons
      Frick right off, thats only in specific locations and perods, there were also LAWS mandating that people HAD to have a weapom of a certain class upon entering the city, in case that city came under siege and everyone had to defend it or fricking die.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Wrong.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >doesnt bother explaining why just says so
          Frick off with your bait.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >forbid owning of weapons by non noble classes - hence grossemessers and such were produced that were tools that looked like weapons by chance (no really its not a sword its a big knife)

      Wrong they were in fact ironically required to own weapons as a form of tax in reality messer was created to get around guild restrictions on sword making so they would give knife type hilts to falchions(cutlass predecessor)which ironically were created as low cost swords as they were single edged thus debunking the myth that they only had swords for nobility

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Maces are symbols of authority, because they're sticks. Commonwealth parliaments all have a large mace in them as a historic symbol of authority. Swords are also symbols of authority, because they're heroic and look pretty, and are more expensive.

      steel could be expensive, but not always, iron wasnt, there were lots of shitty-mediocre swords. The medieval times were actually significantly more pro individual or communal liberty, in many places you were required by law to own and/or practice with a weapon. This is a natural consequence of a society where theres no state with an absolute monopoly on violence, and where taxation and government actually did require consent and cooperation.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >on top of that there were laws that forbid owning of weapons by non noble classes
      Only in very few time periods was this the case. This is not true for the majority of time swords were used.

      >hence grossemessers and such were produced that were tools that looked like weapons by chance (no really its not a sword its a big knife)
      They weren't tools pretending to be weapons, they were weapons pretending to be tools to be able to cheat guild regulations. If your German town had many blacksmiths, they'd each join a guild that protected them (patents didn't exist back then). Sometimes the people in the knifemaking guild would cheat the swordmaking guilds by making big knives that "totally aren't swords," and the consumer would get a more affordable weapon.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Just imagine
        Swordsmiths: "The knifemaker's guild is making swords and our charter CLEARLY states we have authority over all sword production."
        Knifemakers:" These aren't swords. They're merely knives. War knives, to be specific. Just look at the handle construction."
        Nobleman appointed judge: "I'm just gonna waffle indecisively about this while collecting court fees."

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Just imagine
        Swordsmiths: "The knifemaker's guild is making swords and our charter CLEARLY states we have authority over all sword production."
        Knifemakers:" These aren't swords. They're merely knives. War knives, to be specific. Just look at the handle construction."
        Nobleman appointed judge: "I'm just gonna waffle indecisively about this while collecting court fees."

        >they were weapons pretending to be tools to be able to cheat guild regulations.
        There's no actual proof for this, its just a possible explanation someone came up to explain why messers were a thing.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/kwKUTdJ.jpeg

      >forbid owning of weapons by non noble classes - hence grossemessers and such were produced that were tools that looked like weapons by chance (no really its not a sword its a big knife)

      Wrong they were in fact ironically required to own weapons as a form of tax in reality messer was created to get around guild restrictions on sword making so they would give knife type hilts to falchions(cutlass predecessor)which ironically were created as low cost swords as they were single edged thus debunking the myth that they only had swords for nobility

      reminder that the French royal court had a special office for lending people swords in case they didn't normally carry one and had to meet the king

      unless you were a priest or a woman you weren't properly dressed for meeting with the king without a weapon at your side

  22. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Ninurta's mace could act as a sentient long range reconnaissance aircraft, communicate telepathically with, and turn into a kaiju-sized winged lion if push came to shove. A loose translation is "myriad-destroyer".

  23. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Are you the same POS who keeps making this same thread over and over again in /tg/?
    What is your problem?

  24. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Here's your legendary mace.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      a nice representation of a roman fasces minus an axe head

  25. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  26. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >I can't recall ever hearing of a legendary mace.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That's a hammer.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(bludgeon)
        >A mace is a blunt weapon, a type of club or virge that uses a heavy head on the end of a handle to deliver powerful strikes.
        Seems to fit the bill just fine.

        • 1 week ago
          Anonymous

          It's thor's hammer anon.
          Mythologically that was a Blacksmith's tool first and foremost, and weapon second.

  27. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    swords: can fight multiple unarmored opponents.
    mace: cannot

    sword: effective against unarmoured and armoured when aimed at gaps.
    mace: only usecase against armoured, too slow and short against unarmoured opponents.

    sword longer reach with same weight.
    sword more psychological effect, homosapien more scared from sharp pointy metal.

    sword better than mace.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      counterpoint
      >BONK

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      are you some sort of brit or something, you're not drizz do urden where you're going to be fencing on your own, a solid mace or axe hit would frick up your shield arm so bad it'd probably break your arm before the shield breaks. It's not like a honorly gentlmens duel swash buckling. Even a guy with a horse and a flimsey saber fricking works taking people out, a chunk of fricking metal like a mace head is gonna fricking knock the living shit out of people.

  28. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    >Legendary maces
    The Sumerian war and plague god Nergal is depicted holding a mace with a double-lion’s head in one hand and a sword in the other.
    In a myth in which he BTFOs Erishkigal, he used a magic sickle to cut a branch from a magical tree, which he then uses as a club.

  29. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    >I can't recall ever hearing of a legendary mace.
    Because they're called sceptres. Tools of kings. Swords became more fashionable after the dark ages into high medieval period, and have kept that allure to this age. Romances like Song of Roland hyped swords towards mythical status. But if you look at classical period, or early dark ages, you see heroes more often equipped with spears or bows.

  30. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    It’s not even true of swords. Nearly Every foot soldier in medieval Europe carried a sword

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