>start losing
>TIME FOR WARCRIMES
god fricking damn i hate this war so much, i hope none of you will get to witness these horrors
>start losing
>TIME FOR WARCRIMES
god fricking damn i hate this war so much, i hope none of you will get to witness these horrors
>Chloropicrin is harmful to humans. It can be absorbed systemically through inhalation, ingestion, and the skin. At high concentrations it is severely irritating to the lungs, eyes, and skin.[25] In World War I German forces used concentrated chloropicrin against Allied forces as a tear gas. While not as lethal as other chemical weapons, it caused vomiting and forced Allied soldiers to remove their masks to vomit, exposing them to other, more toxic chemical gases used as weapons during the war.
op is a gay 'cause its also used in agriculture.
>In 2008 the US EPA re-approved chloropicrin as safe for use in agricultural settings, stating that treatments "can provide benefits to both food consumers and growers. For consumers, it means more fresh fruits and vegetables can be cheaply produced domestically year-round because several severe pest problems can be efficiently controlled."
while it doesnt discount the usage of it, its so weak and does not make eyeballs pop out.
So this is just some leftover shit from the Chernobyl shit? Why must they lie? They were the one who started the war lol.
what the frick did you just write.
I was saying that its unlikely that chloropicrin was used. i did not discount that other chemicals were used.
>ay man that shits whack yo get that shit out of here man frickin shit man
Indeed. Don't get me wrong though, if you panic in such a case and start to wildly rub your eyes you could actually start to tear your own skin.
Chloropin is essentially tear gas that can't be tactically exploited because it fricks a lot of protective gear as well, so while it forces your enemy to frick off, it also forces you to frick off.
Chances are this was less a concerted effort and more a desperate attempt by a garrison to save their asses
while yes but we have not yet seen or heard of russia using biological suits for this kind of deployment,
the odds are that a storage shed of this stuff was nuked and it spilled out over the area.
>op is a gay 'cause its also used in agriculture.
You will find that many pesticides can be either directly utilized as chemical weapons or are only one or two synthetic steps away from chemical weapons.
If it kills bugs, it will probably also kill humans.
Humans are bugs are not THAT different
because raid will kill us right? the bug world is very different due to the differences in the thickness of our skin and shit
>because raid will kill us right?
Go huff a bottle of raid and see how that goes.
is that what we do to insects, nah man we spry them with it, if i spray myself with raid ( i have) it doesnt have the same effect
Insects breath through their skin moron
You fricking failed biology class, didn't you?
Cool gif, anon. Very informative.
And the application of the chemical is also different when used for different purposes. How else do you think chlorine gas was used to kill people in WW1 but chlorine is now used to clean our pools?
Inhale a few lungfuls of raid and report back to us on how you feel
not the same application that we do on bugs. we dont stand there with a mini gas mask and make em inhale it.
>we don't make em inhale it
Yes you do because bugs breathe through tiny holes scattered all across their exoskeleton. Go inhale a few lungfuls of raid and report back to us on how you feel
>Yes you do because bugs breathe through tiny holes scattered all across their exoskeleton. Go inhale a few lungfuls of raid and report back to us on how you feel
thats exactly why i said we arent the same as bugs moron
You really want to die on Mount Stupid, don’t you
Consumer-grade spray products do very little for a small amount of time. If the insect gets into direct contact with the spray, it acts as a nerve-gas. The active ingredient is some pyrethroid which binds with neurons and causes them to keep firing by preventing the sodium channels from closing. Essentially, it overloads their nervous system causing paralysis (not unlike a seizure). All their muscles spasm and insects die, feeling rudimentary levels of pain (not like we do in the full meaning of the word).
the difference is that raid is a nerve gas and thus does not need inhalation
So if I go huff an equivalent amount of raid by weight that will kill an insect scaled up to my body mass, I’ll be fine?
insects dont huff it
> The pyrethrum in the Raid (or any other pyrethroid insecticide) penetrates the cuticle and binds to the sodium channels in the nerves, stopping all muscle activity-including breathing and heartbeat. The effect on insect is similar to the effect of nerve agent on a human being. While it is VERY toxic to insects, it is almost harmless to mammals.
youll probably get sick but wont die
You will definitely die if you huff that much Pyrethrum.
how much are we talking, i fail to see any mention of gallons (or shock and horror) or liters. or any kind of weight based measurement
The equivalent amount you'd use on an insect.
th equivalent to cill a wieneraroach wth raid would be like .1% per mass weight
you guys keep arguing bout drowning insects in it while a nerve gas has nothing to do with breathing.
i thought glowies atleast could like, use the dark net and find a dark wikipedia or something
>th equivalent to cill a wieneraroach wth raid would be like .1% per mass weight
Are you a bad enough dude to inhale 0.1% of your bodyweight in Raid?
That'd be about 8 grams.
So he weighs 8 kg according to you?
he's not exactly a big guy
for me.
>The active ingredient is some pyrethroid which binds with neurons and causes them to keep firing by preventing the sodium channels from closing.
gee, I wonder if pyrethroid toxicity was at all known to exist in mammals.
But that is besides the point, because many agricultural pesticides are either organophosphates, which are extremely toxic to basically everything that moves or compounds with loads of chlorines and nitrogens in it and just looking at those structures you know that it can't be good for you.
no.
my point was that not all insecticides that we make for insects affects humans since your argument was that humans=bugs
And my point is that if you douse someone in enough raid they'll die.
yeah you can drown them in it but thats not the same thing as a quick spray or are you a moron and drown your poor insect in an entire aerosol bottle of raid
Man I barely passed organic chem in college and I can still see that this will frick you up.
>thats exactly why i said we arent the same as bugs moron
But we are:
>Bug breathes in pesticide
>dies
>human breathes in pesticide
>dies
Where is the difference?
What do you think aerosolizing it around them does? They breathe it in.
Because you didn't spray yourself with as much. An insect gets a proportionally much higher dose, because insects are very small. Humans are big, so they require more.
Both G and V series nerve agents evolved from pesticide research after discovering they were not only good at killing bugs, but killing just about anything with a nervous system.
Organophosperous pesticides still continue to be used, albeit much milder ones. A person exposed to them would exhibit classical nerve agent symptoms.
>Humans are bugs are not THAT different
t. turk
>Humans are bugs are not THAT different
Turkish feelers typed this
The antidotes for nerve agent and pesticides include atropine. They're very similar and mostly vary by concentration.
This is true. The Haber-Bosch (nitrogen fixation from air) process not only led to an explosion in food production (artificial fertilizer), it also led to literal explosions. Explosives, fertilizers, poisons, medicines, etc. can all be made in more or less the same way, provided that you understand what is going on, and how a given reaction will proceed. The actual chemicals often barely differ or even don't differ at all. For example, trinitroglycerin (explosive) is given as heart attack medication.
In terms of pesticides and antibiotics, this is even more true. The difficulty in medicinal chem/drug development is finding a drug that interacts with your target while also not fricking up too many other things or getting fricked up by too many other things. Chemically, we are really not that different from bugs. We're certainly more different from bacteria than we are from bugs.
>t. chemchad
roundup kills weed, and it can kill you just as fine.
No, it's not that toxic, you'll just probably get cancer if you are exposed to too much of the stuff.
cancer? glyphosate is an antibiotic, it starves you to death and creates excess cell death
Why are you comparing it to cancer in a container?
Hey, fumigation guy here. We add and then remove the fricking poison before it gets to the stores. Are you moronic? Huff some methyl bromide for me real quick cause it's so safe that we use it on grain
Same fumigation guy here, all of you are fricking moronic and making the equivalent argument of "if I drink gas I'll go faster cause that's what cars do." Please leave the actual poison chemicals to the soldiers and exterminators so you don't all end up dying cause you didn't read a label
why are you talking about a completely different insect spray that works entirely different to raid then lmao
the point being argued is "pesticides kill humans".
And MeBr will definitely kill you.
no the argument was "not all pesticides are the same, and bugs are different from humans"
see
LMAO it is still being used as a chemical weapon, even if it was basic b***h tear gas that would still be a war crime.
so police using tear gas is considered a war crime? i think you need to check that bud
no, because police actions are not wars and you can war crime your own guys.
No, because the police aren't at war with the rioters. Using tear gas is a war crime and this has been established since before WW2, why the frick even argue otherwise?
>The Geneva Convention clearly states that “Mustard Gas” or any kind of nerve agent like “Sarin Gas” is expressly forbidden. “Mustard Gas” has unusual properties, in which yellow pus-filled blisters, blister the lungs skin and can render the victim blind, is known as a blister agent. It has a mustard garlic or horseradish odor, and is yellow or green in color. Tear gas is considered a non-lethal alternative and isn’t banned by the Geneva Convention. This is used the world over by police to control riots. There is a small percentage of any population who exhibit reactions due to exposures to any kind of gas or chemical agents.
goddamn im dabbing on glowies tonight
Tear gas is neither a mustard gas nor a nerve agent. it's an irritant.
who cares, get dabbed on mr cia
a tear gas can be made that isnt used for riot control, get dabbed on once again
what has this got to do with the op?
no idea im 7 anons away from op
>merely pretending
what you thought all tear gases were the same?
watch some Nile Red pls
> Somewhere on this Earth, a fat autismo thinks he's dabbing on everyone by being a moron
>Declaration IV of the 1899 Hague Convention: "The Contracting Powers agree to abstain from the use of projectiles the object of which is the diffusion of asphyxiating or deleterious gases."
>1925 Geneva Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare: "Whereas the use in war of asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and of all analogous liquids materials or devices, has been justly condemned by the general opinion of the civilized world; and whereas the prohibition of such use has been declared in Treaties to which the majority of Powers of the world are Parties; and To the end that this prohibition shall be universally accepted as a part of International Law, binding alike the conscience and the practice of nations."
The use of tear gas is unequivocally banned in war and has been for over 120 years.
Do police commit war crimes every time they use hollow points?
Gee, I wonder whether this non-military act done during peacetime is a WAR crime?
Twitter rando could've just gotten the agent wrong
Or the whole story is bullshit, that's also very possible
Water is used in both torture and as life saving fluid
You do know Zyklon B used to be used for pest control?
Yeah, they used it with the israelites
HCN will kill absolutely everything that is alive, anon.
>It's good for conumers
>fresh fruits and vegetables are cheaper to grow
I see their priorities.
>op is a gay 'cause its also used in agriculture.
you mean like zyklon B was?
Well the holohoax is a lie so yes just like B, or do all the gas chambers near you have wooden doors?
>While not as lethal
So it's still lethal.
White helmets strike again, thanks
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750034.html
Look, far be it from me to put something past the Russians, but chemical weapons are a BIG escalation, and I'm not finding any indication the Chloropicrin causes the eyes to burst.
Also, gib video homosexual.
https://twitter.com/igor_1941/status/1578113179095339014
all he says is we have two guys in bad shape, and asks them for their names.
i wouldnt be surprised if russia eventually uses something illegal but youre making shit up
Ukie here: Can confirm not a thing was said about gas, only that the guys are in critical shape and are from the 99th Brigade. Might've got a lot of debris thrown into the eyes from an exploding shell or something else which would destroy the eyes.
Eye gear has not been very prevalent until now in this war. It should be.
Those aren't chemical burns, they are thermal burns. Dudes got a faceful of kaboom, not gas.
Fake News.
how are people so dumb that they think thats what chemical weapon injuries look like
That is what mustard gas injuries can look like though. That's not mustard gas obviously but your disingenuous shitpost is incorrect as chemical weapons can produce effects like this.
It's almost like we have thousands of images from WWI that look very similar.
Fricking have a nice day.
care to link some proof?
>time for war crimes
Are you implying the murdering of civilians back in April wasn’t a war crime?
Bucha massacre was commited by Ukrainians
for what reason? they don't need to prove to us that russians are inhuman, we already knew that
Stop bargaining with the vatnik, you stupid frick. There's satellite evidence Bucha was occupied by Russians during the massacre, and like 100 other massacres if that's not enough.
Ukrainians have commited continual civilian massacres and glownigs continue to deflect for them. Truly pathetic but in the end you want this precedent to massacre Americans.
>Ukrainians have commited continual civilian massacres
*Russians, leaving plenty of evidence of them.
No, I want all Russians and Russian friendly people dead
>Troons want everyone dead who will not acknowledge their pronouns and will not have sex with them
>Russian sympathizer is obsessed with transexuals
Gee, what a shock.
>Troon wants everything to be about it
If we were talking about this happening in, say, Donetsk or Luhansk, where there has been traditionally civilian resistance to the government, that's one thing. But we're talking about a town like an hour outside of Kyiv. What you're alleging is the same thing as if the NYPD genocided Yonkers.
The amount of shilling went up, what happened this time?
We have videos of Russians doing all kinds of war crimes.
Muh 6 gorillion Donbabwea children
there is also a drone video of chechens executing a civie
broofs ?
I used to believe Russians did it but zelensky got really indignant when European politicians said it should be investigated by international observers and accused them if defending russians for wanting to look into it so it never really was investigated and fell out of the news loop really quickly despite being a great potential propaganda tool.
Something was definitely fricky there, Zelensky isn't moronic enough to let something like that just go considering how he treats every other Russian spergout.
Bucha was almost certainly done by Ukrainians.
Shame you have no evidence that that is the case, and no one believe you anyway.
NYT, 2 separate articles
Read between the lines.
Ah yes, the New York Times, that wellspring of truth and honesty
What’s wrong with the NYTIMES?
NYT hasn't been anything other than an anxiety click machine plus DNC bootlicker for about a decade.
Considering how pro Ukraine nyt is, I’d say you’re just a misguided moron.
Someone’s eye balls just flew over my house!
lul
If this is real, isn't this pretty big news and might warrant further involvement of the west? It's no nuk, but chemical weapons are part of the ABC weapons nonetheless
Eyebrows? Never heard of them
Even Hitler in the depths of WWII didnt use poison gas. There are certain things you cant undo. Ukraine can make poison gas fairly easily if they wanted to. They could probably make a nuke to take out Moscow as well. First time a nation at war can make a nuke and chooses not to.
Yes, but the allies took the war to Germany proper and if Hitler had authorized the use of chemical weapons on london I've no doubt Berlin would have paid in kind - think of it as a precursor to MAD.
Situation in ukraine is different sadly, in that putin pretty much has a free hand until he uses nukes...
It’s just a bot… do not interact with it.
Things are so bad right now they don’t even send the good shills anymore, just some moronic trainees and some boys. Ignore them.
And yes, butcha and every civilian war crime in Ukraine was obviously done by Russia, and the payment will be in blood.
>They could probably make a nuke to take out Moscow as well.
No they couldn't. That shit is complicated and takes a lot of time.
Time for dirty bomb fun times
>That shit is complicated and takes a lot of time.
Anon...we did it with 1940's technology
Yes. "we". The civilized people. G*rmoids are too moronic for that.
we are talking about ukies now
rent free btw
Not to trivialize nuclear weapons design, but gun style is pretty straightforward. The big limiter is mostly collecting enough (like 100lbs worth) of fissile material. Combined mass after firing should be enough to go critical.
Fortunately, Ukraine has a very large domestic nuclear power industry so they already have ample stocks of enriched uranium.
i think it goering at his trial that said the germans didnt use chemical weapons because they feared like retaliation, and they didnt have enough gas masks for their horses.
He was probably right. When the a potential sealion was still a threat, the Brits stockpiled shitloads of the stuff. They were fully prepared to not just retaliate, but were planning to blanket the channel with gas in the case of invasion, even planned to rig some tigermoth trainers as warcrime crop dusters. They also had alot of interesting ideas on weaponising petrol too.
Yeah, Brit 'ere. Occasionally someone still finds a flame fougasse that's been abandoned since 41 on a country road lul. It's fricking based. If the Nazis had been stupid enough to make landfall it would've been a hilarious slaughter. The UK might not have survived as a coherent nation, but its people would've RETVRNED TO CELT and begun bogdwelling to give the Nazis a guerrilla war without end. They'd never hold the island truly and any imported Germans would've lived in perpetual fear.
Also because Hitler got gassed in ww1 and was not a fan. I know morons will cry about gas chambers but the gas used there are honestly an enormously less painful way to go than mustard gas.
>Even Hitler didn’t use poison gas
Yes. He went through WW1 and saw the effects of mustard gas firsthand, he literally thought it was too inhumane to use it warfare.
>it does not count if it used against POWs and israelites
eh, yeah, i think?
zyklon B was used for delousing, not killing.
>literal HCN
>delousing
It won't just kill lice, but everything that's alive.
is that why so many people were walking around as POWs when they all went through the zyklon showers upon arrival?
POWs did not take Zyklon showers. Zyklon B was used as a delousing agent for clothing--- and not while it was being worn.
In fact, Zyklon B was hydrogen cyanide mixed with an eye irritant to warn people that they were in the presence of a VERY poisonous substance and should gtfo the area and seek medical attention asap.
It was only ever deliberately used on people as a means of murder.
>Zyklon B was hydrogen cyanide mixed with an eye irritant to warn people that they were in the presence of a VERY poisonous substance
HCN is my favorite toxic chemical, because if you can smell it, you're dead, but only about 40% of people even have the gene to smell it at all.
Delousing agents are not chemical warfare anon
>Even Hitler didn’t use poison gas
Correct.
For one, he'd been seriously injured in a gas attack near the end of the war.
Secondly, even as bad as shit was going for his wehrmacht near the end, he knew if his forces used gas that they'd receive it 10 fold (and he was right, we would have gassed every fricking german).
Not in battle, no. The Holocaust is a different matter.
The what?
He was aware that G series nerve agents had been publicly described in chemistry journals released internationally. Those same G series nerve agents had been brought to his attention as possible wunderwaffen, far more deadly than previous CWs. He elected not to use them because he didn't have enough masks, MOPP style gear wasn't practically a thing(we're talking nerve gas after all), and he knew the allies had the same journals available to them and could vastly out produce Germany.
Zyklon /b/ruh
>sources: twitterdiarrheaface.jpg
>plebbit style concern trolling
White Anglo Saxon trany hands typed these posts
>They could probably make a nuke to take out Moscow as well. First time a nation at war can make a nuke and chooses not to.
Wrong in every way. Ukraine has no short term nuclear potential.
Ah yes, Serhii.
The "Ukrainian" schizo vatniks love to post.
Don't even need to see the video just that freeze frame already looks fake as hell.
Eastern euros can't help themselves they love war crimes.
dollar store halloween fake blood
Looks more like shrapnel injuries, chemical weapons can produce all kinds of injuries but not localized bleeding.
I haven't seen this reported anywhere on UA channels. Chances are this is fake.
>twatter
Don't care
74D here. I don't see any evidence of chemical attacks on these guys. They sure do look like a mortar or artillery shell slapped their shit with some shrapnel though. Another possibility is one of those thermobaric rockets the Russians have for RPGs.
That makes sense, massive overpressure into the eye sockets, and *pop*. They also mount them on the more modern rocket artillery.
Problem is localizing the pressure only in th eyes. At that blood pressure plenty of other vessels would pop first and hemorrhage would happen before eyes bursting out.
Looks and sounds like Russian agitprop. Where would they even get chemical weapons at this point? It's pure fearmongering to try to stop the advance.
You're right about it reeking of desperation.
>there's going to be a mobilization if you don't stop!
>surely the gloves are coming off nao!
>if you don't stop, we're gonna nook, aaaah!
>stop, we're using chemical weapons!
I wish I could hate Russians to death.
i wish i could hate americans to death
seethe thirdie
there are always non-american websites you could visit
sure but american sites are faster since i'm in america.
i'm the wisconsin guy. back from a three week ban.
anyone want to meet up so i can beat you to death with a hammer?
You could always beat yourself to death, bonus being you won't see Americans anymore once you get to Hell
well the option of whoever comes winning is always on the table. you could attempt to send me to hell
i bet good money cia is behind this
they ether knew iit was going to happen and didn't warn them so people get upset or it was them that gas them i judt know cia are behind this
Yeah, you didn't frick up and decide to support the most irredeemable shit again to fit in with the glavset hookers on /misc/ pretending to be users, it's actually a conspiracy against your sad, forgotten ass by multiple government agencies.
How could this be happening to you again?
this comment proves how it's cia
That's ridiculous, there's no way we would have the time to shitpost on /k/
send the ukranians canisters of CS powder
wtf, is this how they really transport watermelons over there?
nature is healing anon, they are returning to their ancestral lands
it's cheap, efficent and keeps them fresh
>cheap
Well, if you ignore the "shrinkage" due to me rolling up and loading up on watermelons whenever they'd do this.
Peacefully migrating watermelons are safe from packs of Black folk under the watchful eyes of their caretakers
link https://streamable.com/io6cwf
Yeah, i'll call it twitter moronation, looks more like dudes got shelled. Too bad camera guy don't says anything about what happened to them.
That blood sure looks "oxygenated", like it just happened.
Or this is propaganda and they're using hollyweird tier makeup to make it look like it does.
>NOOOOOOO YOU CANT JUST USE CHEMICAL WEAPONS TO WIN IT DOESNT COUNT NOOOOOOOO
lol
>no cheating bro cmon fight the war fairly bro srsly don't make me get the referee involved
And your vatBlacks are still losing somehow. Why does this keep happening to you?
I'll wait until I see it on NYTimes to verify. I don't trust this.
Highly likely that Russia will use chemical or biological weapons at some point, this should hardly be surprising.
Yeah.
>war crime
Who's going to enforce these laws?
Exactly. War crimes don't exist.
>Who's going to enforce these laws?
Some fat banker that controls a frickload of the Russian oligarchy's assets
Pssst... the 1925 Geneva Protocols don't prohibit the retaliatory use of chemical weapons.
>what an eyepopping escalation by the russian army
CARLOS!
Russians are capable of any abominable act one can imagine. They are an evil race that feel pleasure in being bestial and brutal.
webm
makes me think about the khamar death
it was probably the same gas
Jesus frick.
>face red and bloody
>hand and side of neck pristine
so not chemical
what's going to suffer from chemical exposure first: skin or mucous membrane?
>WARCRIMES
If they said chlorine gas then I would understand but very strong tear gas? Idk man seems like propaganda to me.
prove to me america and cia wasn't behind this?
>proving a negative
Christ, what education system failed you?
>Gradenko. Begin full-scale production of the gas.
here we go boys, hold on tight
Tbqh I believe that both Russians and Ukranians commit war crimes on each other, mostly because I think almost everyone who follows this kind of stuff has seen it on both sides. But, the Ukranian propaganda machine is getting more and more holocaust tier and it's honestly really fricking gay. I'm sick of seeing this zelensky homosexual israelite rat beg for money every day too. It's all so tiresome. Almost 10 years of this shit and the israelites finally got what they wanted, well almost, because we all know Globohomosexual West wants war with Russia (Globohomosexual East)
Obviously shit happens in war, shooting even a russian in peacetime is considered murder, it's purely by necessity that those rules are thrown out the window. But Ukie "warcrimes" are not committed against civilians, and they're usually shit like feeding a POW hot sauce or filming them saying their treatment is decent. And wouldn't be happening at all if not for Russia's invasion, so the "both sides" story doesn't really hold up when foreign soldiers are only on one country's territory. This isn't a civil war, and there's no equal invasion of Russia.
>they're usually shit like feeding a POW hot sauce or filming them saying their treatment is decent.
People don't care about that. The ukies have done plenty of executions of unarmed and incapacitated Russians. At this point I'm just glad I'm not from a slavic country. Their capacity to do evil things to each other is remarkable.
>because we all know Globohomosexual West wants war with Russia (Globohomosexual East)
moron
Both sides have been committing war crimes. Both sides have good people trying to do the right thing. I still remember that Ukrainian girl who on day one of the invasion uploaded a video showing her dead mother and the dead Russian soldier who she credited as having died trying to protect her family from the psychotic bloodlust of his comrades.
>Both sides
unironically kys
Both sides.
It's not a war, it's a special military operation.
>Russians start using chemical weapons
>The US start dressing the Ukrainians all fancy now
>The World Russia's chimpout. Join Duty and save the innocent. Ukie, protect the world from The Monke. Join Duty."
D-Do the Russians know which way the wind blows in that region?
Big hint, not at the Ukrainian’s lines.
Pretty sure your eyes won't melt from something like that even if you poured it straight into the eyes. Sounds like some Propaganda to get "western" sympathy points but they failed to do basic research.
Or, because Ukraine is poor agricultural shithole, they just had a shed of pesticide get exploded nearby and Private Dumbshit clawed his eyes out from exposure as he ripped the skin and the exposure got worse.
>dey be usin kemikal wepoonz n shiet!
ah yes, the good old pretext for nukes
>okay look, I know we've always lied about our enemies using chemical weapons in the past
>but this time we're not lying
I've seen war crimes from both sides since the start, some more based than others.
Neither is gonna make me pretend they have anything to do with moral superiority in the slavic genocide of the current decade.