So can we settle this once and for all: Did the red army make use of human wave attacks during WW2?

So can we settle this once and for all: Did the red army make use of human wave attacks during WW2?

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  1. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Before Vuhledar I wouldn't have believed it

  2. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Infantry aren't going to set off mines. Rzhev was kinda human wavey, but every major Soviet offensive used massed tank formations to achieve breakthroughs, same as the Germans.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Infantry aren't going to set off mines
      What?
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-mine

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        He's talking about AT mines.

        • 11 months ago
          Anonymous

          Is he? The fact that infantry doesn't set off AT mines is so obvious that I doesn't warrant a mention at all, does it? Especially when talking to other generals...

          • 11 months ago
            Anonymous

            Can you even source this quote for me?

            • 11 months ago
              Anonymous

              "Russia: The People and the Power" - Page 207 - by Robert G. Kaiser - History - 1976

          • 11 months ago
            Anonymous

            He's attempting a retreat after realizing he was wrong.

  3. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    No

  4. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Yes

  5. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Maybe

  6. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Unlikely

  7. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Human wave was defined in Korea I believe, so technically no. They used Deep Battle, which has some similarities.

  8. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Unrelated question, but wasn't there a joint operation in WW1 with Russian and Anglo troops (I think US + British or maybe just British) where the Russian commanders sent like 20k soldiers to their deaths in a couple of days, and then said something along the lines of they were "honored to make such a sacrifice" while the Anglo commanders looked at them completely fricking bewildered at their disregard for casualties?

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      I find that hard to believe since the same Anglo commanders would casually expend 50k of their own men by ordering them to walk into machine gun fire in the previous war

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        To the anglos, it was a shocking tradgedy that they learned from; for puccia it was "tuesday"

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        its unbelievable because it wasnt true
        it didnt occur because they were told to just walk into machine guns, they simply believed that the artillery barrage was more effective than it actually was because they had pummeled the german lines for several days straight
        they learned from this very quickly and had the heavier french guns support their advances for the rest of the battle

        and in later battles they had refined artillery practice to allow creeping barrages so that when the artillery fire ended they would fire at a further point behind to prevent german counter-attacks

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        Cool so you learned everything you know about WW1 from reddit? Tell us about the shotguns next lol

        • 11 months ago
          Anonymous

          british television

          sort comments starting from newest

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        Britain won WW1 and the battle of the Somme though.

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        Not true, the bong commander pretty much fainted over taking 7k casualties on the first day of the marne. They were used to low attrition colonial wars, with the occasional large defeat such as in South African campaigns, but nothing like what they experienced when they were facing a proper european land army.

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        It’s remembered to this day since the bongs were horrified that their leadership would let that happen. Same as the charge of the light brigade, Gallipoli and the defeat against the Zulu, these setbacks were hammered into the British psyche as a way to grow from the failures they took and ensure it never happened again. Russia sees shit like the failure in Finland and Barbarossa as something to shrug off and cope as simply circumstantial bad leadership instead of problems in their culture that needs to be addressed, even a victory like Kursk would have ended with the British public appalled that despite knowing an attack would take place that the leadership allowed hundreds of thousands of young men to sit in vulnarable positions because they wanted the krauts to take the bait so they could flank them with the self evidently numerous times more important tanks inplace of human lives

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      Read a book on ww1, no one gave a shit about any grunts. You were sent to die no matter the side.

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        >no one gave a shit about any grunts
        lots of officers died too

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        You fricking baboon, if you'd actually taken your own advice you'd know that it was no more or less true for that war than it is for any other in human history.

  9. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    In the Winter War of 1939–1940 the Soviet Red Army used human wave charges repeatedly against fortified Finnish positions, allowing the enemy machine gunners to mow them down, a tactic described as "incomprehensible fatalism" by the Finnish commander Mannerheim. This led to massive losses on the Soviet side and contributed to why the clearly weaker Finnish forces (both in manpower and armament) were able to resist the Soviet attacks.

    From wikipedia.

  10. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Yes

  11. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    >30mil dead soviets vs 500k dead germans
    guess

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      Yeah turns out when one of your objectives if exterminating every person in the country you're invading, and even have special squads given that task, you'll kill more people

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      This is why /k/ isn't a good source of info.

  12. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Yes, there were penal battalions for mine clearing (or just wasting MG ammo) and recruitment also covered population transfer/ethnic cleansing policies. Only the revolutionary vanguard and state apparatus matters under Marxist-Leninism, "The state employees will not go hungry." (in reply to "what about nuclear war?") These were never normal people, and their dregs still walk among us.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Only the revolutionary vanguard and state apparatus matters under Marxist-Leninism
      .. didn't everyone part of the first group get murdered by the secret police?

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        Of course not comrade, don't be ridiculous
        A network of traitors and reactionaries was successfully liquidated by the state security apparatus, the revolutionary vanguard remains in the Kremlin where he belongs

  13. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Slavs aren't human. Can't have human wave attacks without humans.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      When I came to this thread, this is what I was thinking, and this is what I intended to post.

  14. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    You need to define what a "human wave" is, because D day was basically walking people into machine gun fire one by one until they ran out of ammo. And dont even get me started on the pacific.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      >, because D day was basically walking people into machine gun fire one by one until they ran out of amm
      >hasnt read actual D-day events

      the initial wave didnt charge at german machine guns, they rushed to the shingle bank and stayed there because they knew they would get slaughtered if they pushed
      they waited until they were reinforced with the second wave, which brought with it additional tanks, and didnt start climbing towards german defenses until they had adequate naval gunnery support

      the whole fight upwards from omaha beach was a slow, methodical, artillery battle as the landing force made their way up to take enemy positions with the help of accurate naval gunnery
      an important vessel was a US destroyer who they managed to contact with their radios who sailed up to the shore nearly touching the sand and fired her 5in guns in direct fire

      by the end of the day they were supported by about 60 tanks and guns from DDs all the way up to BBs, and with significant air support
      at no point did they try to rush up to german guns with just infantry

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        You just described what the Soviets and Japanese did, everything had a reason and a methodical application. Yet their attacks were considered 'human wave'.

        • 11 months ago
          Anonymous

          Care to post casualty counts Mr. Ivan?

          • 11 months ago
            Anonymous

            >5 germans facing 4 soviets
            >kill 4 soviets
            >same 5 germans facing 6 soviets
            >kill 3 soviets before being slaugtered
            >hurr k:d is 7:5 the soviets did a zerg
            Care to explain why casualty counts mean anything?

            • 11 months ago
              Anonymous

              they are a pretty reliable indicator of how capable your military is

              • 11 months ago
                Anonymous

                Actually theyre an indicator of how well your politicians do their job.

          • 11 months ago
            Anonymous

            Casualties were higher at the start of Barbarossa when the army was in disarray and hundreds of thousands of russians got encircled. Towards end casualties were closer to a 2:1 ratio so what's normal for an attacking army

        • 11 months ago
          Anonymous

          >japanese
          They made multiple unsupported bayonet charges throughout the war

          • 11 months ago
            Anonymous

            So did the allies, even in afghanistan there were bayonet charges.

            • 11 months ago
              Anonymous

              post sikh raping habibis with a tripod, screaming until his throat rips.

  15. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    The Red Army did not use human wave attacks during WW2. And the soldiers that died in them were proud to do so for the Motherland. And what IS a human wave attack anyway? What about America's human wave attacks?

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      >And what IS a human wave attack anyway?
      usually considered to be an attack wherein infantry rush to close the distance with little or no support in order to saturate the defensive capabilities of the target with more bodies than they can engage

      while its rarely, if ever, done intentionally and part of no doctrine it can occur accidentally such as when infiltrator units are detected so when they enter the assault phase its indifferentiable from an intentional human wave attack

      >What about America's human wave attacks?
      never occured in WW2 or beyond, due to the US supremacy in artillery and armor allowing them to spend weeks or months shaping the battlefield through prodigious expenditure of ammunition

      So did the allies, even in afghanistan there were bayonet charges.

      key word: unsupported and multiple
      allies rarely, if ever, relied solely on infantry and would engage the enemy with artillery and armor
      bayonet charges were rare and usually done under machine gun and artillery cover

      >afghanistan
      literally done once against an enemy force of smaller size
      typical engagement not involving IEDs would involve fire and maneuver tactics rather than headlong charges

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        Are you done moving the goalposts?

        • 11 months ago
          Anonymous

          japanese performed multiple unsupported bayonet charges against allied lines with intent to try and overwhelm the machine guns in close combat

          allied forces rarely, if ever, did the same thing
          and when faced with heavy defenses would not assault enemy positions but try and defeat them with artillery before moving slowly

          no goalposts were moved, allies still do not perform any kind of human wave tactic on purpose or accidentally
          japanese did

  16. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tannenberg_Line

  17. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Sometimes with penal battalions. No one beats the Japs on human wave though.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous
  18. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    when you have the population of all of eastern europe with 250 million in total you can honestly afford to lose a few million in assaults

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      yeah but.. could you have achieved same or better results with less expenditure?

  19. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    i fricking hate russians for attempting to defend shit like human waves

  20. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Yes but it's been exaggerated.

  21. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    human wave tactics haven't worked anywhere since the invention of the machine gun. nobody has been using it except WW1 and Korea. USSR used it in the very beginning of Barbarossa.

    Red Army and Iran (Iran Iraq War) would use cannon fodder for direct engagements as a diversion and use professional units to hit flanks. So of course surviving Iraqis and Germans would talk about human wave tactics because they were dealing with the distraction and survived that. So there is survivors bias. The problem is the larger mass got rolled up dealing with the flanking attacks they weren't prepared for.

    Another element to this was Deep Battle Doctrine called for hitting the front on many locations to determine break through points where tank formations could be concentrated.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      >detail explicitly two ways human wave attacks were used
      >no comrade we don't use it

  22. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Western propaganda to make Russia look bad.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      You don't even need propaganda to look like a Russian

  23. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    The idea here was that they had run the math and figured out that they lost more people trying to slowly pick their way through a minefield and getting cut to bits by German defenders than they would by just going "Frick it we ball" and charging through.

  24. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    The amount of tankie cope it takes to get the Red army down to a 1:4 kd ratio against the Germans is abysmal especially given the fact they routed the germans in 1944 imagine the kd ratio agaist russia if Germany won the war

  25. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Not as a matter of doctrine.
    There are probably examples of it occurring now and then, but for the most part, infantry was supported by armor and artillery, with the artillery being used to soften enemy positions and the armor being used to break through said positions, leaving the infantry to dismount after the breakthrough and clear out any remaining positions before fortifying and preparing to attack once more.
    This is actually how we got the modern BTG doctrine the soviets used and Russians continue to use when they actually have the equipment to do so.

    TL;DR, soviet doctrine for the war was:
    >Infantry scouts area for positions
    >Arty softens positions
    >Tanks crush positions with infantry mounted
    >Infantry dismounts to clear remaining positions

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Infantry driven with well-proven death threats into extreme danger, we know where the enemy is based on the ones who don't come back
      >Fire some shells in that general direction
      >Tanks go in and wander around getting shot up like crazy
      >Infantry flees
      >wash rinse repeat for years until germany finally runs out of resources

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        Yep, and that's why they still had a shitload of casualties.

  26. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    what was his name again?

  27. 11 months ago
    Anonymous
  28. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    do you mean storming enemy positions?

  29. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Undoubtedly, just judging from the combat history of any Soviet rifle division, which all read like:
    >The 409th Rifle Division was formed in February 1939 and assigned to the Bialystock Military District. On July 2nd, 1941 it was encircled and destroyed in two days of fighting during Operation Barbarossa. The 947th Workers and Peasants Red Banner Division was raised in the suburbs of Moscow in September 1941, primarily from all the school teachers in the city, and renamed the 409th Rifle Division. The division entrenched outside Tulya on October 7th, 1941 and was committed to a counterattack on October 9th in which 80% of the division were made casualties, stalling the Germans an additional day. In 1942 the division was reformed again outside Stalingrad and committed to the Spring Offensive in which it took 95% casualties after 4 days of fighting near....

    In the absence of sufficient artillery support, armor, air cover, NCOs, training, of tactical doctrine, Russian generals committed whole divisions to ruinously costly attacks. As materiel accumulated, a more advanced doctrine was implemented, but the disregard for human life continued. Interestingly it got worse on the German side as their materiel dried up. Both sides began to substitute lives as a solution for problems that would otherwise be solved by artillery, armor, and air strikes in a well supplied army.

  30. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    >So can we settle this once and for all: Did the red army make use of human wave attacks
    No this is Western propaganda. Also what about the US in Afghanistan?

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      I love that this gay ass war has reignited the russiaball edits

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous
        • 11 months ago
          Anonymous

          Thats not Russiaball

  31. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Absolutely.
    Only far-left leaning people and tankies react allergic to mentions of soviet human wave attacks because that doesn't fit their almost pathological need to retroactively paint Nazi Germany as pathetic incompetent losers.
    >uhhh actually the soviets didn't use human waves against the nazis they used LE DEEP BATTLE
    Their reluctance to call human waves human waves shows that they inherently recognize how barbaric and moronic (in the time sense) human waves are. All in in a reactionary reflex against wehraboos.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      tankies etc have no real reason to exist anymore since their system has proven to be a failure.this is why they prop themselves up as premier force against fascism like some video game hard counter.take this away and they have no leg to stand on.this akin to telling people that their god isnt real.

  32. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    yes, 2022 proved all the bad shit we heard about red army.
    i now believe in stories abour german machinegunners running out of ammo and going insane.

  33. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Yes, according to Gunter K Kaschorrek in his memoirs titled 'Blood Red Snow'. He goes on at great length how the russians repeatedly charged his position in huge groups over open ground, allowing him and his unit to kill them in the hundreds. The russians did have a lot of tanks, but they didnt have enough to be everywhere, so large infantry formations where used to charge the germans en mass, usually (but not always) after an artillery barrage.

  34. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Did the red army make use of human wave attacks during WW2?
    They did at Stalingrad at least
    t: talked to a vet that survived the battle

  35. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    this quote is fricking gay because there are actual letters from Zhukov telling his commanders to stop using suicidal human wave attacks. this whole thing is a psyop

  36. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    In WW1 everyone used human waves, in WW2 most nations used human waves in certain battles but not at scale.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      >In WW1 everyone used human waves
      WW1 was largely fought with artillery
      no one just went over the top with the intent to bayonet the enemy, but rather they simply overestimated the damage their artillery barrages caused
      this would decrease over the course of the war and by the end of it they were able to overcome enemy defensive networks without massive casualties

      >in WW2 most nations used human waves in certain battles
      you would be hard-pressed to find intentional human wave attacks outside of the japanese

      • 11 months ago
        Anonymous

        So D-Day wasn't a human wave attack?

        • 11 months ago
          Anonymous

          Its explained above, they actually didnt move up from the shingle bank until they had additional tanks and naval gunnery
          They did not attempt to rush into close combat with enemy defenders but instead methodically reduced them

          And the only beach that had heavy casualties at all was at omaha beach
          The opening barrage at utah beach was so effective that they practically walked out the beach

        • 11 months ago
          Anonymous

          No. Omaha Beach was a gigantic frickup. The other landings progressed more-or-less without incident.

          • 11 months ago
            Anonymous

            and it wasnt a human wave either, seeing as how the troops mostly took cover the whole time and allowed tanks and naval gunnery to support them the whole way

  37. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    Russians aren’t human so no.

  38. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    to be fair the quote isnt as bad as it seems, a statistical study conducted by the russians indicated that the took the same or slightly less casualties attacking across minefields as the would by avoiding the minefields and letting the germans funnel them into prepared defenses.

  39. 11 months ago
    Anonymous

    They did and they didn't.

    Deep battle is a concept which includes a massa assault along the entire line of contact with relatively "expendable" or lower value units and then using you reserves to punch through perceived weak points with masses armour assaults.
    Theoretically, the assault would force the enemy to overcomit on the front and thus leave it's backline voulnerable to deep penetrations.

    Napoleon used similar tactics, but obviously at a much smaller scale.
    If you want real human wave assaults then look at what the Japs and chinks did in the arian theatre.

    • 11 months ago
      Anonymous

      Basically this. "Human waves" are more often than not just an excuse for the losers to explain away their tactical and operational failures, on that they were simply inelegantly overwhelmed with brute force. More often than not, perceived "human waves" are just, in truth, the ground-level experience of the other side having not only gained the initiative, but being free to actively move and concentrate their forces, while the defenders are bound or short and have as such failed to react in kind.
      The attacker engaging in a decisive charge, intentionally rotating units according to a plan to maintain the momentum, does not mean they're careless or uncaring of losses. On the contrary, it means the defenders are perceived as being weak and on an unsound footing, that there's an opening to break them.
      It's basic infantry tactics. A determined assault should be initiated when the opportunity to finish off a weakened enemy shows itself. Simply because some armies have integrated this basic rule up on the operational level doesn't mean they were simply "expending men". Not even when they're putting pressure on non-objectives to keep enemy forces from being relocated to more important areas.

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