At the rate Germany and America are dithering about their own tanks, we might actually get those production lines running way before those two get their act together.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Hmmmm. This does make sense, actually. Not even joking. But what about money?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Collective pool. Divide the cost among multiple countries.
Find the engineers who have the most experience with old Soviet hardware.
>no power
Lies. The MIC is supplied with electricity 24/7 >no workers
In your dreams. All MIC factories work in 3 shifts. Like in that song basically, "Дни и нoчи y мapтeнoвcких пeчeй
He cмыкaлa нaшa Poдинa oчeй" >no steel
You are aware that Azovstal and Illicha combinate weren't the only metallurgical factories in Ukraine, right?
Look at Ukraine natural resources map. You'll see your mistake, hopefully
Collective pool. Divide the cost among multiple countries.
Find the engineers who have the most experience with old Soviet hardware.
It's not exactly soviet.
Imagine you have a soviet factory. Some equipment is soviet, uses punchcards and tape. Some is new, but relies on some factory-specific knowledge. Some parts rely on 80 year old Klyment Stepanovich that knows how to operate a 1924 lathe. This situation is typical for Ukrainian factories. And now you need to "export" at least 25 factories like this into CNC programs and blueprints.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Klyment Stepanovich that knows how to operate a 1924 lathe
This part is, of course, a hyperbole, but it is closer to reality than you'd think
even if they had a problem making steel the west can just send them the materials they need.
1 year ago
Anonymous
We should coordinate the efforts of Ukrainian and Western MIC personnel already!
We're already working together on multiple levels, let's get the factory guys talking to one another.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I want a sweet do-nothing job at a gas company first.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Honestly making a Ukrainian tank sounds fun. Getting to work with non-Western technology.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>the west can just send iron ore into the big factory which russia controls so the ukraine can make steel
lol you're a clever one
1 year ago
Anonymous
Azovstal wasn't the only one. There are also factories in Zaporizhya and Kryvyi Rih
1 year ago
Anonymous
Operating factories?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yes, indeed
... where did you see this? that's cool as frick and something you don't really think about. Ukraine producing their own secret MANPADS. what a war to observe
[...]
i still don't really understand the hype for western tanks in Ukraine. Not in general, just in this situation. Aren't they pretty much better off with lots of bradleys, marders, etc and TOW missiles on them?
Ever noticed how in those "MANPADS shot down a cruise missile" operators always shoot 2-4 missiles, and the launchers all look brand new? How do you think is this sustainable? The answer is Igla-1M and Kolibri. This is, of course, isn't a 100% proof, so I just went and asked a guy that works on the factory where the seekers are manufactured after I noticed these videos
these dont even exist. there are more armatas than bm oplot
There are 49 Thai oplots, two prototypes, 2 in USA, 1 in Ukraine. Meanwhile, there are 2 T-14 prototypes, 0 functional.
>Why not help Ukraine mass-produce T-84s
Because the Harkiv plant was destroyed.
Nope
1 year ago
Anonymous
>2 are in USA
Well we can definitely study the design pretty thoroughly with hands-on access.
1 year ago
Anonymous
they have 49 t84 oplots, not t84 oplot-m. oplot-m doesn't exist
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Oplot-M doesn't exist
Then what's this?
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/oplot_m.htm
1 year ago
Anonymous
> The Oplot-M Main Battle Tank (MBT) is a further development of the previous Oplot, which is based on the T-84. This MBT was revealed in 2008. It is an improved version, rather than entirely new design. Main components of this tank were developed back in the 1990s. This MBT completed Ukrainian Army trials, however it was not ordered by the Ukrainian Army due to funding problems. Thailand ordered 49 of these tanks. Thai tanks have some minor modifications to meet local requirements and are referred as Oplot-T. First tanks were delivered to Thailand in 2013. Deliveries are rather slow due to ongoing military conflict in Ukraine and by the end of 2017 a total of 36 of these tanks were delivered.
Also, funding problems huh? Well money's not going to be an issue now, lol.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>same western analysts who assured us that "russia has zero working tanks" the week before they invaded georgia
1 year ago
Anonymous
the oplot-m doesnt exist
> The Oplot-M Main Battle Tank (MBT) is a further development of the previous Oplot, which is based on the T-84. This MBT was revealed in 2008. It is an improved version, rather than entirely new design. Main components of this tank were developed back in the 1990s. This MBT completed Ukrainian Army trials, however it was not ordered by the Ukrainian Army due to funding problems. Thailand ordered 49 of these tanks. Thai tanks have some minor modifications to meet local requirements and are referred as Oplot-T. First tanks were delivered to Thailand in 2013. Deliveries are rather slow due to ongoing military conflict in Ukraine and by the end of 2017 a total of 36 of these tanks were delivered.
Also, funding problems huh? Well money's not going to be an issue now, lol.
you just spliced the oplot-m description and the thai t84 description. the oplot-t is the export variant of the oplot. NOT the oplot-m. the oplot is good but its on par with like a t90a, better than t90m is a stretch
1 year ago
Anonymous
Oplot-t is 'T'hai modification of BM Oplot, moron. If you can't tell the difference between T-84 Oplot and BM Oplot when there's a distinguishing feature as distinct as PNK-6 on the turret, then what are you doing here?
Again, for morons. There are 49 "latest" Oplots in Thailand
Ukraine still has plenty of MIC workers. They need to begin teaching the next set, keep Ukraine in the local production game.
As neat as Ukrainians driving around in Western tanks sound, it's sounding more and more like real concerns get in the way. Namely Western tanks are designed for Western logistics and money.
Yup. And there's lots of stuff that flies under the radar, like freshly manufactured MANPADS, for example
1 year ago
Anonymous
... where did you see this? that's cool as frick and something you don't really think about. Ukraine producing their own secret MANPADS. what a war to observe
Ukraine still has plenty of MIC workers. They need to begin teaching the next set, keep Ukraine in the local production game.
As neat as Ukrainians driving around in Western tanks sound, it's sounding more and more like real concerns get in the way. Namely Western tanks are designed for Western logistics and money.
i still don't really understand the hype for western tanks in Ukraine. Not in general, just in this situation. Aren't they pretty much better off with lots of bradleys, marders, etc and TOW missiles on them?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Tanks give Ukraine a lot more offensive capability against enemy-held cities.
We'll never get the bureaucrats and bean-counters to send Leopards and Abrams to Ukraine. They're worried about fuel consumption, cost, maintenance, etc.
So we'll just have to make something more familiar to the Ukrainians.
The hull, turret, transmission, engine can be outsourced to Czechia, Poland, etc. (Morozov tank plant works, but is being shelled, so it's far from optimal). The problem is in optics, a good chunk of that was made on IPZ in Izyum, and russians raided that factory, everything made there needs to be re-developed. Now, everything else that Oplot uses, is being manufactured right now for repairs and new T-64BV's. So there are two options. Either there's enough production capacity to transfer just hull/turret etc. documentation to allies, and manufacture everything else domestically, or you'll have to transfer absolutely everything, risking leaks+ it's expensive and time-consuming to set up the production lines
Overall, it will be cheaper and better to use Leos
Because the remaining facilities are busy with keeping the countless captured and remaining T-series tanks running. And even then work is being outsourced to neighbouring NATO countries, like said
Hello there, kraut
Me still see no reply about moldy Strela
Don't do be like that, answer me
So, another coolstory, about tank repairs this time
In 2014, while ATO was still in active phase, Malyshev factory worked like it's WWII, and still almost couldn't keep up. That was the reason Thai Oplots were delayed.
Ukraine has 3 big tank factories in Lviv, Kyiv and Kharkiv, a dozen of smaller mechanical factories, plus shops and micro-factories on mil.bases
With this all being filled to capacity and more, if we knew the armor loss rate in 2014, we could approximate with a very decent precision, how many tanks russia lost+how many own tanks Ukraine has to repair
Kharkiv's going to be hit by the next counteroffensive hard.
I really wish that factory could be moved like in the days of the old USSR, when entire factories were moved back deep inside the country to avoid the Germans.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Do you understand that the northern border is so fortified now that it will take close to a million troops for a successful offensive for russia?
1 year ago
Anonymous
That won't stop the Vatniks from attempting it. They're fricking idiots.
No kurwa zostałem Niemcem
I did answered, just forgot to put the trip back on, fellow Slav. I found Your story hard to believe, since most of the sources available to me said that
1) Ukraine demanded that exact type of MANPADS
2) The number of malfunctioning missiles was no bigger than 700 out of 2500.
I think the part about molding o-rings and escaping nitrogen validated Your story after all. I just think there's little sense in complaining, when the Germanbros may point out these missiles were to be scrapped and You literally pulled them from garbage bin.
Well, Oplot is far from "now". Leclercs can be "now". Abrams too. But you'll need to build an entire factory for oplots, it is not fast in the slightest
Not fast is faster than fricking NEVER, which will be the Abrams and Leopard. They're never going to go to Ukraine. Americans are too worried about "Logistics and fuel consumption, as well as cost" and Germany says they won't send Leopards without American sending its tanks too....for some fricking reason. They're stuck in a loop of buck-passing.
Europe is a fricking mess, if I was in charge, I'd get all the national MICs together, figure out what each can contribute and put that together into 1 model each of tank, IFV, MLRS and SPG and set up mass production. It would take a while but by now they would be coming off the assembly line like T34s.
Why the frick do they need Abrams?
They need mass production of T-64s with upgrades and something to sort out that reverse speed. Giving them Abrams will be just another fricking completely different platform for the mechanics to learn and get to grips with.
T-64s can have the older mechanic guys who have come out of retirement be completely familiar, and they can pass their knowledge onto the younger ones too.
Western kit is designed around fully functional maintenance crews who have all been trained up to a standard BEFORE the war kicked off. This isn't currently feasible.
Has everyone forgotten the last 30 years of post-cold war analysis on how the Russians could win if they spill out over the Ukrainiane steppe? Ukraine needs to have a shitload of mass produced 90s ex WP tech delivered to them, because it is exactly what they need now, in a grinding industrial war on the flat part of Europe. Everyone saying otherwise is flat out fricking moronic.
It's only a matter of time before Russia starts to strike the infrastructure that carries the tanks to Lviv and further on. Especially if the growing number of tanks means a growing threat to their own border regions.
For frick's sake, Ukraine does have steel production
https://i.imgur.com/KulaSKT.png
The US should give Malaysia M1A2 Abrams in exchange for Malaysia donating PT-91M Pendekar to Ukraine
Or, better, somehow get the Thai Oplots back to Ukraine
1 year ago
Anonymous
>For frick's sake, Ukraine does have steel production
That's just moronic. How dare you.
Like what, railway? You know that the know-how to repair damaged tracks in several hours isn't russia-exclusive, right?
That's why they would target bridges and other more difficult to repair objectives. This is an ancient tactic going back to Rome.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You can't destroy a soviet bridge with just one missile, and russia can't afford multiple per one target
Yes, old theme with "russia is out of missiles", but it's kinda true. Guidance systems for all precision weapons in russia were made in Ukraine. russia makes new missiles, but with shit precision because of this. Remember the hotel that was damaged in Kyiv in early January IIRC? I can tell you where the real target was, and it's laughable
1 year ago
Anonymous
>I can tell you where the real target was, and it's laughable
Where?
1 year ago
Anonymous
A hundred meters to the left, here
sho rturl(dot)at(slash)iqCVZ
(Frick antispam)
The whole point of the US sending tanks at all is to remove Germany's moronic excuse to not send tanks and fine anyone that sends Leopard IIs to Ukraine. Knowing the Germans, they will sperg out about how we technically didn't send the tanks and some bullshit about how "now is the time for national unity (and by that we mean now is the time to slurp down a gallon of delicious Russian cum), we will not send support unless everyone else does! (even though everyone else has sent frickloads more support relative to their size when compared to us)"
Well, yeah, Oplot x Yatagan would be fricking awesome, but Oplot compensates for the moronic autoloader with excellent protection and optics. Basically, moskals can't see it when it sees them, and even if they somehow see it, they can't pen it, so it's turret won't become a space vehicle. Oh, and top speed of 49 km/h in reverse allows it what no T-90 can do. Shoot, quickly hide behind terrain fold, rinse and repeat
Anon, do you have a remote idea how complicated, time consuming and expensive it is to build a new production line for tanks that are not currently in production? Look at car production and those are not nearly as complicated as tanks.
The war will be over before the first tank leaves the factory.
And yet will still happen before Germany sends its first tank to Ukraine, lol.
Anon, do you have a remote idea how complicated, time consuming and expensive it is to build a new production line for tanks that are not currently in production? Look at car production and those are not nearly as complicated as tanks.
The war will be over before the first tank leaves the factory.
Is there a functioning production line building those tanks at this time?
Is a tank factory in the enemies artillery range the proper place to build your entire tank fleet?
What is yearly output in peace time and what are the bottlenecks in production?
even if they could get manufacturing up and running again
somehow replace all the materials and parts they used to source from russia
i still don’t see manufacturering happening on a rate that would make an impact on the war
We can build Ukrainian tanks in America. Just get some damn Ukrainians to come over and we'll get something up & running. Russians can't bomb fricking Arizona, lol.
And I'm only advocating this because I'm tired of the West taking FOREVER to send tanks.
wouldnt the best idea be to upgrade older soviet tanks with modern optics?
We can certainly do that, but Ukraine needs sheer numbers of tanks to go on the offensive. That means if the West doesn't send them over itself, they're gonna have to be built FOR Ukraine.
for that point
the israelis manufacture Namer hulls in the US to save money(as 80% of the aid can only be used on american made arms)
so i guess the ukrainian can get a similar thing going
even if they could get manufacturing up and running again
somehow replace all the materials and parts they used to source from russia
i still don’t see manufacturering happening on a rate that would make an impact on the war
>replace all the materials and parts they used to source from russia
There's none. The war goes on for 9 years already, we had plenty of rime to replace those.
too late. russian def industrry switchted to 24/7 months ago. also russia could request direct chinese industrial help. china would spam 10 APC per hour into former ukraine.
Does anyone believe this lie that the Abrams is too hard to maintain? Obviously the real reason is because we don’t want to give China motivation to take Taiwan. The USA is the #1 logistics army in the world and have based in Germany to truck fuel and parts over if needed.
It's a heavy as shit supply hog that runs of fricking kerosene. Americans with their ridiculous logistics can keep them running, but in Ukraine it's not the best choice. Just give them more artillery, not tanks. Give them a lot more tube artillery.
Americans excuse the Abrams because the logistical aspect of sending them and parts is "difficult", and is quite see through. It's never been easier in human history to move an item across the Atlantic ocean. The American military has more than enough air/sea strategic lift to tanks out of storage and mail to Europe, because they do it every few years when a unit is deployed to Europe for NATO training exercises.
The U.S likely wants to see how the current package of Bradleys fare before moving onto tanks due to monetary reasons, and hoping Eurotard nations step up, as the Leo2s are right in Ukraine's back yard. It's also an elbow that Europeans and other NATO countries need to wake up and chip in rather than the US having the traditional burden of carrying other's load within NATO. Obviously there's plenty of appetite in allies to move forward on this,
Frickface Sholz is the holdup.
why not just drop a few nukes on the disputed region making it uninhabitable for both Ukies and Russkies, immediately ending the war?
NUKES FOR PEACE 2023.
you sound like if MacArthur was reincarnated into the MGS universe
That's captain Torres from AC7
CRISP WHITE SHEETS
Well, AC is MGS with airplanes
>just drop nukes near russians and expose them on radiation
ah yeah lets pretend MAD isnt a thing
>why not just drop a few nukes on the disputed region making it uninhabitable for both Ukies and Russkies, immediately ending the war?
cause zigger want to kill the entire ukraine? donbawe and lughanda are just hand wave excuses to be depopulated with press ganging
Words of a true Belkan
im a slav and if you decide to do the right thing, you should nuke everything east of oder
inshallah
As a Ukrainian I'm honestly down
At this point I don't even care about Donbass and Crimea, I just don't want Russia to have them
>thinking the ukrainians have the ability to produce anything at all right now
LOL
Well, yes, we can. Did you think soviets built gigantic factories with underground facilities for a peace-time production?
there's no power, no workers, no steel, those are now converted into bases with command and control capabilities, as we saw at azovstal
So build them here in America. Ukraine can provide us with the specs.
We build the Abrams in our sleep. It can't be harder to make a more primitive tank.
>a more primitive tank
It isn't that primitive. And you'll still need to set up the production lines
At the rate Germany and America are dithering about their own tanks, we might actually get those production lines running way before those two get their act together.
Hmmmm. This does make sense, actually. Not even joking. But what about money?
Collective pool. Divide the cost among multiple countries.
Find the engineers who have the most experience with old Soviet hardware.
>more primitive
The US doesn’t have that kind of production ability like it used to. That’s in China now.
>no power
Lies. The MIC is supplied with electricity 24/7
>no workers
In your dreams. All MIC factories work in 3 shifts. Like in that song basically, "Дни и нoчи y мapтeнoвcких пeчeй
He cмыкaлa нaшa Poдинa oчeй"
>no steel
You are aware that Azovstal and Illicha combinate weren't the only metallurgical factories in Ukraine, right?
>factories just generate steel from energy units like in starcraft
Look at Ukraine natural resources map. You'll see your mistake, hopefully
It's not exactly soviet.
Imagine you have a soviet factory. Some equipment is soviet, uses punchcards and tape. Some is new, but relies on some factory-specific knowledge. Some parts rely on 80 year old Klyment Stepanovich that knows how to operate a 1924 lathe. This situation is typical for Ukrainian factories. And now you need to "export" at least 25 factories like this into CNC programs and blueprints.
>Klyment Stepanovich that knows how to operate a 1924 lathe
This part is, of course, a hyperbole, but it is closer to reality than you'd think
even if they had a problem making steel the west can just send them the materials they need.
We should coordinate the efforts of Ukrainian and Western MIC personnel already!
We're already working together on multiple levels, let's get the factory guys talking to one another.
I want a sweet do-nothing job at a gas company first.
Honestly making a Ukrainian tank sounds fun. Getting to work with non-Western technology.
>the west can just send iron ore into the big factory which russia controls so the ukraine can make steel
lol you're a clever one
Azovstal wasn't the only one. There are also factories in Zaporizhya and Kryvyi Rih
Operating factories?
Yes, indeed
Ever noticed how in those "MANPADS shot down a cruise missile" operators always shoot 2-4 missiles, and the launchers all look brand new? How do you think is this sustainable? The answer is Igla-1M and Kolibri. This is, of course, isn't a 100% proof, so I just went and asked a guy that works on the factory where the seekers are manufactured after I noticed these videos
There are 49 Thai oplots, two prototypes, 2 in USA, 1 in Ukraine. Meanwhile, there are 2 T-14 prototypes, 0 functional.
Nope
>2 are in USA
Well we can definitely study the design pretty thoroughly with hands-on access.
they have 49 t84 oplots, not t84 oplot-m. oplot-m doesn't exist
>Oplot-M doesn't exist
Then what's this?
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/oplot_m.htm
> The Oplot-M Main Battle Tank (MBT) is a further development of the previous Oplot, which is based on the T-84. This MBT was revealed in 2008. It is an improved version, rather than entirely new design. Main components of this tank were developed back in the 1990s. This MBT completed Ukrainian Army trials, however it was not ordered by the Ukrainian Army due to funding problems. Thailand ordered 49 of these tanks. Thai tanks have some minor modifications to meet local requirements and are referred as Oplot-T. First tanks were delivered to Thailand in 2013. Deliveries are rather slow due to ongoing military conflict in Ukraine and by the end of 2017 a total of 36 of these tanks were delivered.
Also, funding problems huh? Well money's not going to be an issue now, lol.
>same western analysts who assured us that "russia has zero working tanks" the week before they invaded georgia
the oplot-m doesnt exist
you just spliced the oplot-m description and the thai t84 description. the oplot-t is the export variant of the oplot. NOT the oplot-m. the oplot is good but its on par with like a t90a, better than t90m is a stretch
Oplot-t is 'T'hai modification of BM Oplot, moron. If you can't tell the difference between T-84 Oplot and BM Oplot when there's a distinguishing feature as distinct as PNK-6 on the turret, then what are you doing here?
Again, for morons. There are 49 "latest" Oplots in Thailand
Aren't you guys starting to produce 155mm shells, as well as your new classified drone (supposed 1000km strike range) and anti-marine drone?
all 3 of those take serious resources, and skilled men
Ukraine still has plenty of MIC workers. They need to begin teaching the next set, keep Ukraine in the local production game.
As neat as Ukrainians driving around in Western tanks sound, it's sounding more and more like real concerns get in the way. Namely Western tanks are designed for Western logistics and money.
Yup. And there's lots of stuff that flies under the radar, like freshly manufactured MANPADS, for example
... where did you see this? that's cool as frick and something you don't really think about. Ukraine producing their own secret MANPADS. what a war to observe
i still don't really understand the hype for western tanks in Ukraine. Not in general, just in this situation. Aren't they pretty much better off with lots of bradleys, marders, etc and TOW missiles on them?
Tanks give Ukraine a lot more offensive capability against enemy-held cities.
>T-84
Is previous generation. The newest model is BM Oplot, introduced in 2009 and still vastly superior to 2020 T-90M
Well let's get that mass-produced already.
We'll never get the bureaucrats and bean-counters to send Leopards and Abrams to Ukraine. They're worried about fuel consumption, cost, maintenance, etc.
So we'll just have to make something more familiar to the Ukrainians.
The hull, turret, transmission, engine can be outsourced to Czechia, Poland, etc. (Morozov tank plant works, but is being shelled, so it's far from optimal). The problem is in optics, a good chunk of that was made on IPZ in Izyum, and russians raided that factory, everything made there needs to be re-developed. Now, everything else that Oplot uses, is being manufactured right now for repairs and new T-64BV's. So there are two options. Either there's enough production capacity to transfer just hull/turret etc. documentation to allies, and manufacture everything else domestically, or you'll have to transfer absolutely everything, risking leaks+ it's expensive and time-consuming to set up the production lines
Overall, it will be cheaper and better to use Leos
Because the remaining facilities are busy with keeping the countless captured and remaining T-series tanks running. And even then work is being outsourced to neighbouring NATO countries, like said
Hello there, kraut
Me still see no reply about moldy Strela
Don't do be like that, answer me
So, another coolstory, about tank repairs this time
In 2014, while ATO was still in active phase, Malyshev factory worked like it's WWII, and still almost couldn't keep up. That was the reason Thai Oplots were delayed.
Ukraine has 3 big tank factories in Lviv, Kyiv and Kharkiv, a dozen of smaller mechanical factories, plus shops and micro-factories on mil.bases
With this all being filled to capacity and more, if we knew the armor loss rate in 2014, we could approximate with a very decent precision, how many tanks russia lost+how many own tanks Ukraine has to repair
Kharkiv's going to be hit by the next counteroffensive hard.
I really wish that factory could be moved like in the days of the old USSR, when entire factories were moved back deep inside the country to avoid the Germans.
Do you understand that the northern border is so fortified now that it will take close to a million troops for a successful offensive for russia?
That won't stop the Vatniks from attempting it. They're fricking idiots.
No kurwa zostałem Niemcem
I did answered, just forgot to put the trip back on, fellow Slav. I found Your story hard to believe, since most of the sources available to me said that
1) Ukraine demanded that exact type of MANPADS
2) The number of malfunctioning missiles was no bigger than 700 out of 2500.
I think the part about molding o-rings and escaping nitrogen validated Your story after all. I just think there's little sense in complaining, when the Germanbros may point out these missiles were to be scrapped and You literally pulled them from garbage bin.
We'll never get Leopards to Ukraine. Germany's being a b***h.
We need to get something to Ukraine NOW, not wait for the pencil pushers to bicker.
Well, Oplot is far from "now". Leclercs can be "now". Abrams too. But you'll need to build an entire factory for oplots, it is not fast in the slightest
Not fast is faster than fricking NEVER, which will be the Abrams and Leopard. They're never going to go to Ukraine. Americans are too worried about "Logistics and fuel consumption, as well as cost" and Germany says they won't send Leopards without American sending its tanks too....for some fricking reason. They're stuck in a loop of buck-passing.
>Expensive and time-consuming
BUT it will at least happen. The bean-counters are arguing about Abrams and Leopards too much to get anything done.
these dont even exist. there are more armatas than bm oplot
its already a tweak of a tweak of a shit design. itd better to start from scratch tbh.
>Implying T-80 is shit
>Implying there's something left from the T-80 in the Oplot, besides suspension
It looks fine to me.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/oplot_m.htm
Because it is fine
An sexy, I have to add
Do we have the TIME for that? An existing design is easier to mass-produce.
Europe is a fricking mess, if I was in charge, I'd get all the national MICs together, figure out what each can contribute and put that together into 1 model each of tank, IFV, MLRS and SPG and set up mass production. It would take a while but by now they would be coming off the assembly line like T34s.
Why the frick do they need Abrams?
They need mass production of T-64s with upgrades and something to sort out that reverse speed. Giving them Abrams will be just another fricking completely different platform for the mechanics to learn and get to grips with.
T-64s can have the older mechanic guys who have come out of retirement be completely familiar, and they can pass their knowledge onto the younger ones too.
Western kit is designed around fully functional maintenance crews who have all been trained up to a standard BEFORE the war kicked off. This isn't currently feasible.
Has everyone forgotten the last 30 years of post-cold war analysis on how the Russians could win if they spill out over the Ukrainiane steppe? Ukraine needs to have a shitload of mass produced 90s ex WP tech delivered to them, because it is exactly what they need now, in a grinding industrial war on the flat part of Europe. Everyone saying otherwise is flat out fricking moronic.
Agreed. Ukraine needs HUGE numbers of tanks that they can understand easily and won't tax their logistics to hell.
It's only a matter of time before Russia starts to strike the infrastructure that carries the tanks to Lviv and further on. Especially if the growing number of tanks means a growing threat to their own border regions.
Hence why we need to begin producing the tanks inside Ukraine itself.
Take no chances.
Ideally, factories below the surface. Harder to hit.
Ukraine has no steel production. No ore means no steel which means no tanks. Iron ore's too massive to secretly sneak in from Poland or whatever.
For frick's sake, Ukraine does have steel production
Or, better, somehow get the Thai Oplots back to Ukraine
>For frick's sake, Ukraine does have steel production
That's just moronic. How dare you.
That's why they would target bridges and other more difficult to repair objectives. This is an ancient tactic going back to Rome.
You can't destroy a soviet bridge with just one missile, and russia can't afford multiple per one target
Yes, old theme with "russia is out of missiles", but it's kinda true. Guidance systems for all precision weapons in russia were made in Ukraine. russia makes new missiles, but with shit precision because of this. Remember the hotel that was damaged in Kyiv in early January IIRC? I can tell you where the real target was, and it's laughable
>I can tell you where the real target was, and it's laughable
Where?
A hundred meters to the left, here
sho rturl(dot)at(slash)iqCVZ
(Frick antispam)
Like what, railway? You know that the know-how to repair damaged tracks in several hours isn't russia-exclusive, right?
>Why not help Ukraine mass-produce T-84s
Because the Harkiv plant was destroyed.
I thought it was still intact.
The US should give Malaysia M1A2 Abrams in exchange for Malaysia donating PT-91M Pendekar to Ukraine
The whole point of the US sending tanks at all is to remove Germany's moronic excuse to not send tanks and fine anyone that sends Leopard IIs to Ukraine. Knowing the Germans, they will sperg out about how we technically didn't send the tanks and some bullshit about how "now is the time for national unity (and by that we mean now is the time to slurp down a gallon of delicious Russian cum), we will not send support unless everyone else does! (even though everyone else has sent frickloads more support relative to their size when compared to us)"
should send these Black folk armored mopeds
The truth is that UAF don't need T-84.
However, they need T-64E with T-84-120-style turret, 6TD engine and modern electronics.
>UAF don't need T-84.
Agreed.
We, however, need modern MBTs, and BM Oplot is on par with western tanks
Oplot could be on par with western tanks if it had bustle-mounted autoloader, like T-84-120, Leclerc or K2.
Well, yeah, Oplot x Yatagan would be fricking awesome, but Oplot compensates for the moronic autoloader with excellent protection and optics. Basically, moskals can't see it when it sees them, and even if they somehow see it, they can't pen it, so it's turret won't become a space vehicle. Oh, and top speed of 49 km/h in reverse allows it what no T-90 can do. Shoot, quickly hide behind terrain fold, rinse and repeat
Yatagan would be cool to see.
And yet will still happen before Germany sends its first tank to Ukraine, lol.
reverse speed is 31km/h tho
35, but yeah, my bad.
31.
http://web.archive.org/web/20210919143102/https://morozov.com.ua/en/bronetankovaya-tehnika-i-vooruzhenie/tanki/razrabotki/oplot/
Interesting. 24.8 on English version, 31.3 on russian, and 35 on wiki
All this talk of mass produced cheap export tanks… should I be buying stock in general dynamics?
Anon, do you have a remote idea how complicated, time consuming and expensive it is to build a new production line for tanks that are not currently in production? Look at car production and those are not nearly as complicated as tanks.
The war will be over before the first tank leaves the factory.
>for tanks that are not currently in production
???
Is there a functioning production line building those tanks at this time?
Is a tank factory in the enemies artillery range the proper place to build your entire tank fleet?
What is yearly output in peace time and what are the bottlenecks in production?
How about they start sending all the shills they pay for on /k/?
does the Myshlev factory still has the ability to manufacture tanks from scratch?
We're the West. We rebuilt two cities we blasted out of existence with NUCLEAR weapons.
Pretty sure we can get a few tank factories up and running.
even if they could get manufacturing up and running again
somehow replace all the materials and parts they used to source from russia
i still don’t see manufacturering happening on a rate that would make an impact on the war
we couldn't even get the slab laid and cured before the Russians ruin it with a missile strike.
just cuck germany together and send the tanks
We can build Ukrainian tanks in America. Just get some damn Ukrainians to come over and we'll get something up & running. Russians can't bomb fricking Arizona, lol.
And I'm only advocating this because I'm tired of the West taking FOREVER to send tanks.
We can certainly do that, but Ukraine needs sheer numbers of tanks to go on the offensive. That means if the West doesn't send them over itself, they're gonna have to be built FOR Ukraine.
for that point
the israelis manufacture Namer hulls in the US to save money(as 80% of the aid can only be used on american made arms)
so i guess the ukrainian can get a similar thing going
Yes
>replace all the materials and parts they used to source from russia
There's none. The war goes on for 9 years already, we had plenty of rime to replace those.
wouldnt the best idea be to upgrade older soviet tanks with modern optics?
cant the us "give" abrams to finland/poland/sweden/germany and they give all their leopards/soviet stuff to ukraine?
since ukraine cant handle abrams logistics apparently
Yeah, Germany doesn't want that though, because losing market share is bad
Then Germany should send tanks to Ukraine and GET market share!
too late. russian def industrry switchted to 24/7 months ago. also russia could request direct chinese industrial help. china would spam 10 APC per hour into former ukraine.
>china would spam 10 APC per hour
Not much 'A' of an APC if it's made of pure cardboard chingchongium
Does anyone believe this lie that the Abrams is too hard to maintain? Obviously the real reason is because we don’t want to give China motivation to take Taiwan. The USA is the #1 logistics army in the world and have based in Germany to truck fuel and parts over if needed.
It's obvious that it's just political shit
It's a heavy as shit supply hog that runs of fricking kerosene. Americans with their ridiculous logistics can keep them running, but in Ukraine it's not the best choice. Just give them more artillery, not tanks. Give them a lot more tube artillery.
US can’t afford to pay for everything. Ukraine is pretty much 30 million nigs demanding hundreds of billions of dollars of gibs every week.
> t. actual nig on gibs
1. yes we can
2. who cares they're killing russians
Shut up Black person.
The Abrams was made for Fricking Rich People. It wasn't made for Ukraine's needs.
We never bothered to make a proper export tank that was affordable.
;pgisticals issues xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
fricking kek
>pgisticals
wut
Americans excuse the Abrams because the logistical aspect of sending them and parts is "difficult", and is quite see through. It's never been easier in human history to move an item across the Atlantic ocean. The American military has more than enough air/sea strategic lift to tanks out of storage and mail to Europe, because they do it every few years when a unit is deployed to Europe for NATO training exercises.
The U.S likely wants to see how the current package of Bradleys fare before moving onto tanks due to monetary reasons, and hoping Eurotard nations step up, as the Leo2s are right in Ukraine's back yard. It's also an elbow that Europeans and other NATO countries need to wake up and chip in rather than the US having the traditional burden of carrying other's load within NATO. Obviously there's plenty of appetite in allies to move forward on this,
Frickface Sholz is the holdup.
>Why not help Ukraine mass-produce T-84s?
At what factories in western countries????? Tanks do not appear out of thin air.
Why not croatia? They inherited Yugoslavia’s tank factory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Đuro_Đaković_(company)
That also begs the question, are there any ex-Yugoslav nations that are willing to donate M84 tanks? They’re based on the T-72.