Should more IFVs and MTs adopt 14.5mm?

Should more Infantry Fighting Vehicles and Medium Tanks adopt 14.5x114mm in lieu of 12.7x99mm and 20x102mm?

  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The caliber gap between .50 BMG and 20mm is huge.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      As it should be. There are way too many unnecessary "wildcat" cartridges in small arms.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I'd like to see the US develop a 16-17mm caliber for HMG/Anti-armor to replace the M2 50BMG. Then use .338NM LWMMG to take over the MG squads that currently use M240s and lighter vehicle-mounted MG roles that currently use the M2 and don't need the larger 16-17mm MG.
      SOCOM already is using the .338NM LWMMG and it has the same effective range against people as the M2, but it's MUCH lighter and can be easily deployed by a 3-man team.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        anything 15mm and higher is considered an autocannon, not an MG/HMG

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          call it whatever you want kid, I'm just saying what the US should do, the M2 needs to be replaced at some point, and .50BMG doesn't cut it against armored vehicles anymore since basically everyone designs their vehicles to be able to take a .50BMG (or russian 14.5)

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >I'd like to see the US develop a 16-17mm caliber for HMG/Anti-armor to replace the M2 50BM
        There is no need to go bigger. Bigger round is less ammo load. Go smarter. Hybrid SIG case, 80K psi pressure, long ogive bullet for good BC. You can double 12.7mm pen at 1000m both with steel core and tungsten core without cutting your ammo load in half like you suggest.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          okay but hear me out, let us do that but with 16-17mm instead of 50BMG mk2.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      [...]
      But what about all the vehicles and tanks using 12x99mm? It's too small.

      [...]
      [...]
      Other countries besides the US that use .50 BMG need to start considering 14.5mm. Ukraine is putting it to good use. IDK why Turkey doesn't just adopt it.

      What armor will be penetrated by 14.5 that wont be penetrated by BMG SLAP?

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        .50 BMG SLAP is incredibly expensive. Only the Taiwanese military uses it, and even then they designed their own .50 BMG HMG with dual-feed to quickly swap from SLAP to normal ball ammo so none of those pricy SLAP rounds get wasted on shooting a pirate boat.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >.50 BMG SLAP is incredibly expensive
          I know pic related is 20 years old, but $8-9/shot ain't terrible.

          Even if it's $20/shot these days, that's not THAT bad.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Even if it's $20/shot these days, that's not THAT bad.

            It's bad for anybody not named the US...or Israel getting free gibs from the US.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >It's bad for anybody not named the US...or Israel getting free gibs from the US.
              All militaries besides the US military are irrelevant. They would be equally effective if they were replaced with a phone that called the United States to ask if they get to win against whoever they're fighting.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            If only US war reserves weren't classified military secrets, I'd love to know how much ammo we have stockpiled, I'm sure it's an absurd amount in the dozens of billions of rounds.

            Wouldn't shock me if we had a few billion .50 BMG SLAP rounds sitting around for no other reason than we might need them one day.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          So that's a "None" then, huh?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          But with armor getting stronger, and combat in urban areas. I think this is the perfect time for 14.5mm to shine and more countries should adopt it, including on helicopters.

          [...]
          Doesn't 14.5mm also have its own SLAP equivalent? I think the Chinese use it. Not sure about Russia and others.

          It would probably be cheaper to expand the manufacturing of SLAP 50BMG than to replace everything for a tiny advantage against like 0 extant vehicles worldwide.

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    no, because it has got very good AP prowess but can't carry enough HE ordnance to blow shit up. 23x152mm is the optimal shell for IFVs

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Nah, needs more girth for that sweet sweet HE effectiveness

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      As it should be. There are way too many unnecessary "wildcat" cartridges in small arms.

      But what about all the vehicles and tanks using 12x99mm? It's too small.

      I'd like to see the US develop a 16-17mm caliber for HMG/Anti-armor to replace the M2 50BMG. Then use .338NM LWMMG to take over the MG squads that currently use M240s and lighter vehicle-mounted MG roles that currently use the M2 and don't need the larger 16-17mm MG.
      SOCOM already is using the .338NM LWMMG and it has the same effective range against people as the M2, but it's MUCH lighter and can be easily deployed by a 3-man team.

      That would be retarded, just replace the M2s with light 20mm cannons like the m621 on vehicles that can support it, and use .338/.375 portable machine guns for infantry and ultra light vehicles to replace the M2s and FN MAGs.

      Other countries besides the US that use .50 BMG need to start considering 14.5mm. Ukraine is putting it to good use. IDK why Turkey doesn't just adopt it.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        FN developped the BRG-15 in the 80's or 90's using the 15.5x106mm, a wildcat of the 14.5x114mm, but way more powerful (40 kj vs 30 kj). And it interested nobody, so I think in the end the 14.5 just doen't fit western doctrine, kinda like the kamov ka-50/52 is arguably the best gunship helicopter to ever exist, but only fit in soviet/russian helicopter doctrine of attacking like an A-10.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          But with armor getting stronger, and combat in urban areas. I think this is the perfect time for 14.5mm to shine and more countries should adopt it, including on helicopters.

          [...]
          What armor will be penetrated by 14.5 that wont be penetrated by BMG SLAP?

          Doesn't 14.5mm also have its own SLAP equivalent? I think the Chinese use it. Not sure about Russia and others.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >BRG-15
          FN did it to circumvent Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, 20mm armed AFV was considered as IFV and it's numbers were more limited than AFV with under 20mm gun that were labeled as APC.
          But first NATO disarmed themselves way lower that treayy limits
          Then Russia killed that treaty so...

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    That would be retarded, just replace the M2s with light 20mm cannons like the m621 on vehicles that can support it, and use .338/.375 portable machine guns for infantry and ultra light vehicles to replace the M2s and FN MAGs.

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Puma is fucked. It’s worse than we thought

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Does any post-Cold War era German shit ever work?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Does any post-Cold War era German shit ever work?

      Fake news.
      Only 2 puma had real issues abd onky one of them serious.
      The worst the other 16 suffered from were a single loose screw, a screen that didn't work because a guy kicked it and a heater that didn't work because a brainlet didn't turn it on.
      https://augengeradeaus.net/2022/12/puma-sachstand-ganz-kaputt-oder-nur-ein-bisschen/

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Cope. It’s worse than we thought

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You've got loose screws and broken screens?.. Germany's brand new weapons are like Russia's old-ass rundown weapons.

  6. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    HMGs are either too much or not enough at the same time. Airbursting 30/40mm autocannon + rifle round MG should be the standard gun weapons for an IFV. Add in an ATGM if you want to.
    It's the same reason why coax tank autocannons stopped being a thing, if what you're shooting is worth a burst of autocannon fire it's worth a single 105mm HE shell. If you're shooting at infantry at mid-long range then they probably need to die immediately and are still worth expending a shell on. If they aren't then a burst from the MG coax will do.
    14.5 is still useful as a primary weapon on lighter vehicles but I don't think they have a place on heavy vehicles. Too much for too little.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Tanks should have coax 7.62 minigun.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Also Brits actually use chain guns as the coax on Warrior and Challenger 2. The rate of fire is relatively low though because it was really chosen for reliability, although electrically cycled weapons can usually vary it by a lot. It's also not much bigger than a m240 and challenger doesn't carry as retardedly huge an mg ammoload an abrams does, though I recall you can only fire an abrams coax a few thousand rounds before the casings bin fills up and jams the coax anyways. Realistically though a higher rate of fire in a coaxial gun doesn't matter as much since the mount is so accurate it just puts more rounds in the same exact spot and won't suppress any better.

        >Lynx IFV was made with a three barreled machinegun, though really it's just a mg3 that can rotate between three barrels.

        Nice redneck solution but why not use a water cooled barrel?

        If you see comblock water cooled autocannons in action they're always leaking because sealing even with a fixed barrel is a pain in the ass. An m240 changing its barrel for a few seconds after a few hundred rounds is fine and if needed it can always just keep firing.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      There's a reason Abrams has two 7.62s to the .50 but almost 20x the ammo load for them.
      The real best midsize armament for something that can't carry bigger is the 40mm agl, similar payload and anti armor ability as an autocannon just lower range.

      Tanks should have coax 7.62 minigun.

      Lynx IFV was made with a three barreled machinegun, though really it's just a mg3 that can rotate between three barrels. To the best of my knowledge americans still use an asbestos mitten to manually change them out for the m240. Surely they've changed the material by now though.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Lynx IFV was made with a three barreled machinegun, though really it's just a mg3 that can rotate between three barrels.

        Nice redneck solution but why not use a water cooled barrel?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >but why not use a water cooled barrel?
          Water is the big hassle. You need to maintain its supply, it leaks out, it needs watertighting barrel (big hassle when changing barrel), during winter water freezes. Water stinks

          . In theory its much simple in use solution, machingun just shoots and never overheats without any additional work from crew

  7. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I have absolutely no idea

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No. A lot of the targets that are proof against .50 are also proof against 14.5 now, in large part because a simple upgunning like that left/would leave them vulnerable and the soviets did just that during the cold war.
    Dropping the 20mm would leave you seriously undergunned.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Mathwise all else equal a 14.5mm bullet is 25% more volume than a 12.7mm caliber one but 20mm is over twice it. In addition it's not much better in terms of armor penetration but requires a similar size gun so there's little reason to actually use it.
    It's still an upgrade over 12.7 but unless you're in poverty and already widely using it like North Korea who love the cartridge there's no benefit.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Should more Infantry Fighting Vehicles and Medium Tanks adopt 14.5x114mm in lieu of 12.7x99mm and 20x102mm?

    23x115 uses the same cartridge necked out to fire a 23 mm shell at 750 m/s. The same amount of ammo stored but this time you get shells instead of simple bullets. And you still have the AP option using subcaliber APDS and a discarding sabot should you chose this. Muttricans have rediscovered this with the 50 mm supershot which is a 35x228 necked out to become a 50x230. The real question is why do mutts insist of using 12.7x99? Serious overkill against infantry, far too little against armored vehicles.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >23x115 uses the same cartridge necked out to fire a 23 mm shell at 750 m/s
      They both have the same base diameter. Crazy but ingenious. I bet it saved them a lot of money and logistics. Why the 1mm difference in case length?

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No, you're fucking retarded and 20mm is already too small and becomming laegely disused.

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