Of the service rifle contenders, yes. But the entire NGSW was a badly run shitshow and they should have just canned the whole thing and started over doing it right, or waiting another few years for some of the smart tech to really finish baking. NGSW should have started with an ambitious and standardized fully refined cartridge, ideally PCT like the Textron. If going to the amount of fucking trouble it is to replace all service rifles and standard ammo make it count jesus. Then once that was done have everyone compete with that as the target, and split the service rifle and LMG into separate parallel tracks. Different companies can win each.
Sig had the shittiest rifle but the best LMG and that's what the military actually cared about between the two for better or worse.
The army should've said they wanted a good LMG in their RFP though. Instead they said they did NOT care about the SAW portion more, that the rifle and SAW were equally important, even forbidding the usage of a quick change barrel. Yet somehow the SAW was what tipped the scales. Absolute stupidity.
it's definitely possible to make a good rifle out of the Sig cartridge
gonna try that if it gets actual traction
The Fury round is just Bubba's pissing hot wildcat but "government approved". I have a hard time believing a round that averages 80k psi is sustainable long term.
I was thinking about making a 7mm-08 LR-308 build at some point, so if by the time I get around to that somebody's made a barrel and bolt combo for 6.8 Gay Furry or whatever I'll just run that instead
Not only that, but the program requirements even said the "LMG" (I think it was an "automatic rifle" in the program requirements) could be magazine loaded, it didn't even specify whether it had to be belt-fed or not.
Of the service rifle contenders, yes. But the entire NGSW was a badly run shitshow and they should have just canned the whole thing and started over doing it right, or waiting another few years for some of the smart tech to really finish baking. NGSW should have started with an ambitious and standardized fully refined cartridge, ideally PCT like the Textron. If going to the amount of fucking trouble it is to replace all service rifles and standard ammo make it count jesus. Then once that was done have everyone compete with that as the target, and split the service rifle and LMG into separate parallel tracks. Different companies can win each.
Sig had the shittiest rifle but the best LMG and that's what the military actually cared about between the two for better or worse.
>the best LMG and that's what the military actually cared about between the two for better or worse.
false, especially considering that the TV ammo could be dropped into any existing 7.62 NATO gun with just a barrel swap
>false, especially considering that the TV ammo could be dropped into any existing 7.62 NATO gun with just a barrel swap
No, TRUE, regardless of what the EC said. It was made really clear during the actual competition. I was talking the real world and statements from decision makers truth, not the dumb text that the generals don't believe in. Service rifle not very important under old doctrine.
>ask for a rifle and MG >say the rifle is more important and that the MG can basically be a modernized BAR if you want >actually want a really good MG and don't care about the rifle at all
Were the creators of the program women?
>I have a hard time believing a round that averages 80k psi is sustainable long term.
120mm tank APFSDS are up yo 100k psi. Its it sustainable? Yes it is. Just one little trick, steel case base. Fudds hate him.
You aren't looking at the real cutting edge of stuff. The monocrystal superalloys in turbine blades is crazy stuff. There's also steel "glass" (NO crystalline structure). Ultimately, stuff like 7075 are still used for basic structural aircraft components and stuff like that. It doesn't require being the cutting edge. When you're spinning so fast and hot that normal heat resistant superalloys stretch until the blades shred the housing, then you are on the cutting edge.
None of that exotic stuff is used in Sig's guns. They use the same materials as any other rifle on the market.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>None of that exotic stuff is used in Sig's guns. They use the same materials as any other rifle on the market.
No you dumb fuck, the barrel is maraging steel.
it really hasn't
7075 is still the premiere aluminum alloy, and it was reverse engineered from jap wwii planes
>it really hasn't
Current cryo stress relief makes lightweight profile barrels not have as much dispersion when heating up, nitriding, CHF, chrome and other processes have become better over the years.
it really hasn't
7075 is still the premiere aluminum alloy, and it was reverse engineered from jap wwii planes
>7075 is still the premiere aluminum alloy
Good thing it's not used to contain that 80 ksi then
1 month ago
Anonymous
>maraging steel
which is from the 1950s >Current cryo stress relief makes lightweight profile barrels not have as much dispersion when heating up, nitriding, CHF, chrome and other processes have become better over the years.
does it make it hold up against 80k psi better? no? ok
1 month ago
Anonymous
>which is from the 1950s
Maraging is a whole class of steels. Here's one patented in 2019.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF-96
>does it make it hold up against 80k psi better?
You're completely missing the point about metallurgy having progressed since the 50s. Probably on purpose because you're still pushing the narrative that 80ksi chamber pressure is impossible because 2020 metallurgy is the same as what it was in the 50s, for some weird-ass reason.
1 month ago
Anonymous
ok then what point am i missing
what metallurgy has progressed that allows for hyper pressurized chambers and bores
i await your answer
1 month ago
Anonymous
The barrel is just chrome lined 4150 like any other generic AR barrel.
1 month ago
Anonymous
No it's not.
https://www.guns.com/news/reviews/army-new-battle-rifle-sig-mcx-spear
ok then what point am i missing
what metallurgy has progressed that allows for hyper pressurized chambers and bores
i await your answer
>what metallurgy has progressed that allows for hyper pressurized chambers and bores
Putting maraging steels through CHF to make barrels
1 month ago
Anonymous
so 1950s technology merged with 1940s technology, very nice
>bullpup fanboy mad the worst pile of dogshit that they called a LMG and a Rifle didn't win
>I have a hard time believing a round that averages 80k psi is sustainable long term.
IIRC the official Army excuse was "the soldier using the gun will probably be killed or otherwise rotated out before the barrel is shot out, and that's good enough" or something like that.
>I have a hard time believing a round that averages 80k psi is sustainable long term.
IIRC the official Army excuse was "the soldier using the gun will probably be killed or otherwise rotated out before the barrel is shot out, and that's good enough" or something like that.
Sig should have been disqualified for their retarded plan that you shoot weaker loads in training to reduce wear and tear on the gun, and shoot the hot rounds only in combat
In what fucking world is it a good idea to not train with your fighting round.
the amount of dumb shit requirements that just happen to break sig's way has convinced me that the army is tossing them softball contracts to try to stand up a domestic manufacturer large enough to replace colt so they can stop buying everything from FN
>The army should've said they wanted a good LMG in their RFP though. Instead they said they did NOT care about the SAW portion more, that the rifle and SAW were equally important, even forbidding the usage of a quick change barrel. Yet somehow the SAW was what tipped the scales. Absolute stupidity.
Everyone should just have a SAWs except heavy weapons squad where the AG abd AB get carbines to save weight for more 240 762 >t. 11B
>NGSW should have started with an ambitious and standardized fully refined cartridge, ideally PCT like the Textron
Textron cope pseudotelecopic round is flawed by design and rightfully lost.
Only reason basedscience boys slop over Texron is "muh futuristic".
>the best LMG
General Dynamics saved a shit ton of money and parts commonality by making their MG contender just a barrel swap of the M60 and M249. All both required was a barrel swap and they could run their new 6.8 cartridge, and all the old 5.56 and 7.62x51 could remain I service until it was all spent. GD had the most genius design and best idea for MGs, especially in terms of tax dollars saved.
umm sweaty... don't you know it's a 3d model offering? that they're struggling with the bolt, the carrier, the extractor, and having the rifle fire consistently and effectively?
Textron offered a laughable option, Sig offered a laughable option, but the GD... goddamn she was something else. I hold that corruption is what killed its chances, and that's pretty much confirmed by the fact that the guy who owns Sig IS gnomish.
>Sig had the shittiest rifle but the best LMG and that's what the military actually cared about between the two for better or worse.
Yup, thats German infantry in a nutshell in ww2.
>The army should've said they wanted a good LMG in their RFP though. Instead they said they did NOT care about the SAW portion more, that the rifle and SAW were equally important, even forbidding the usage of a quick change barrel. Yet somehow the SAW was what tipped the scales. Absolute stupidity.
Everyone should just have a SAWs except heavy weapons squad where the AG abd AB get carbines to save weight for more 240 762 >t. 11B
sig also had realistic (cheap) cartridge. also doesn't the LMG take mags? might as well just throw them at any rifleman too.
>sig also had realistic (cheap) cartridge >thinking that a bimetal press fit round designed to hold >85k psi is the "cheap" option when its competitors are using literal plastic cartridges
Someone post the image showing that the US military was paying like $1-$2 per round for .277 fury because I can't find it.
oh no doubt that over the longest possible term the plastic conversion would probably be cheaper but that involves so many system-wide overhauls just to carry the ammo before it ever reaches a gun. it was never going to be picked up.
such a load of horseshit
what system wide overhauls would there be? they use magazines just like regular cartridges
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
light, heat insulation. maybe long term tests on their proprietary glues.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
sorry, i don't get how this is an issue
it's polymer cased, not caseless
polymer is a much better insulator than brass, and is very mature technologically in the industry
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
polymer degrades in UV light, i.e. sunlight.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
now you're just being disingenuous
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
less-extreme heat like being inside of a shipping container in the sun can also damage plastics significantly.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>significantly
no
it doesn't damage them at all, considering most plastics have operating temperatures well above 100c
if the shipping container got anywhere near that temperature, the entire ship is probably totalled
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
even specific heat-resistant nylons have some limited amount of degradation in medium-warm temperatures. who knows what their glues are doing.
it's also pretty resistant to petroleum products, but not completely. light exposure to acids or most chemical cleaning products? completely out of the question. unlike a metal case it won't rust it will just invisibly be compromised and you find out when it fucks you.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
the case heads aren't glued, they're fused together
TV uses primer sealant on the necks of their commercial 308 ammo, but that's not any different from primer sealant used in brass ammo
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
less-extreme heat like being inside of a shipping container in the sun can also damage plastics significantly.
polymer does not get "damaged" in mild heat
at most, they get "annealed," (and this requires extreme atmospheric heat) which works in favor of polymer used for casings since it's the opposite direction from brittleness
3d printing people sometimes use this annealing feature as a strengthening method for their prints
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
If you're going to complain about plastic degrading in sunlight, then you should also be complaining about bimetallic corrosion in SIG's cartridges.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
yeah but idk that much about that. i dont suppose surface corrosion would be a huge issue but i am already astounded that case doesn't separate with their pressures at zero corrosion.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Tooling is a major thing to worry about on top of the completely different way said ammunition has to be made.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
that's from the manufacturer's side, and tv's ammunition really isn't that different from conventional ammo
there's zero effort to be made on the military side
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Tooling wise its even easier since a brass case needs like 10 or so machiens to draw out the starting disk to the right shape, carve a rim and then drill a primer pocket. TV could use MIM for their steel base and injection molding for their polymer
polymer degrades in UV light, i.e. sunlight.
Uh close the lid on the ammo can? You don't really leave ammo sitting out in the sun to begin with man.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Of course, you should just make it completely air and light tight... BUT then you have to do a complete review of your ammo cases and make sure they're chemically compatible. And the shipping and storage/warehouse processes. Every single step from factory to armory will need some certification. You'll need form a committee to develop the certification process. You'll need HR to cover the staffing of certification process. and so on and so on.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
per military branch!
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
I sided with TV's design the second i heard the base was magnetic. Do you have any idea how much time that save police calling all that "brass" I don't even have to bend down now i can just sweep the whole range with a magnet.
And why would existing cans with airtight/watertight seals not be used? Why would this process be different for adopting literally any other ammo?
>Someone post the image showing that the US military was paying like $1-$2 per round for .277 fury because I can't find it.
Initial batches of M855A1 costed like $0.8, now they cost less than M855 before switch (adjusted for inflation). I remember Dr. Roberts had insane long rants about how bad and expensive M855A1 is. But then gel and armor shots of M855A1 were dropped.
>Sig had the shittiest rifle but the best LMG and that's what the military actually cared about between the two for better or worse.
This cope again. The NGSW parameters had the rifle listed more important than the LMG. If the army wanted a new LMG they should have put that first
the fact of the matter is all of the rifles were garbage. they were essentially disqualified for being shit on every level, sig's shit was the least new shit.
The army should've said they wanted a good LMG in their RFP though. Instead they said they did NOT care about the SAW portion more, that the rifle and SAW were equally important, even forbidding the usage of a quick change barrel. Yet somehow the SAW was what tipped the scales. Absolute stupidity.
[...]
The Fury round is just Bubba's pissing hot wildcat but "government approved". I have a hard time believing a round that averages 80k psi is sustainable long term.
if the army is smart, they'll go back on the "no quick change barrel" thing and use the M250 to replace both the 249 and the 240L
then they'll go back to the M4 until either caseless or polymer cased ammo matures
why didn't H&K try the G11 again guys, I bet they could have got it to work, especially if they designed it to be open bolt so there was no chance of a bullet cook-off.
Needed the money from a successful contract win to start production because otherwise it would be too expensive to produce for the civilian market so they silently cancelled it
Because AR-15 action is too small and anemic to handle extra beefy rounds like 277 furry. AR-10 has a bit more room but if you really want to achieve retarded pressure you have to basically abandon the AR and make something like the Nemo Omen which has no parts commonality and a different manual of arms. Also fuck the T charging handle. It's not good and I'm tired of people pretending it is
He’s right fuck the AR charging handle
The US military is literally so god damned retarded that they even demanded sig put a SECOND charging handle on the XM5, because they are so buck broken by the AR that they can’t cope with the left side non reciprocating charging handle
I think it speaks to how retarded the US procurement of this rifle has been. Loads of shit, irrelevant requirements that are either useless or outright detrimental.
>US Solider here,
Fuck the charging handle. my bolt hold open broke somehow and let me tell you i have nothing but burning hatred for the T handle. Its not horrible if you only have to use it once, but it is retardation incarnate if you have to use it more then once. Fuck shooting qual with that piece of shit
1 month ago
Anonymous
>Another US Soldier here,
I too had an incident in which something broke and now claim it is inferior. It was a skilcraft pencil.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>Reading comprehension
1 month ago
Anonymous
And your point is?
1 month ago
Anonymous
>the T handle is a shit charging handle and the cope of using the BHO 98% of the time doesn't make it a good charging handle.
Because at the center of it all was the new ammo. They told manufacturers "we want to fire this bullet at this velocity, come up with something". The only way to maintain ammo commonality was to either specify the entire cartridge (which the government didn't want or couldn't do, hence the 3 finalists being radically different designs), or to have manufacturers propose the ammunition and the weapons that fire it, rifle and MG.
>hold massive contract for multiple major components at the same time
What did they mean by this?
This seems contrary to everything I know about military trials.
i think it was supposed to be a trial for a complete weapons system, like the oicw, which was later separated into multiple smaller parts in an attempt to salvage what was left
its not the worst idea, just having a standard common optic is an improvement. the "smart soldier" stuff is already sort of practical on the consumer end without hardening. wonder how out of date it will be by the time it gets fielded for real.
>Also the Sig LMG was literally the only option.
This. Everyone keeps forgetting the MG. We wanted a new MG that could fire further than the M249 while not being as heavy as the M240 or Mk48, this requred a new type of ammo, and having a rifle that was capable of shooting the same round was pretty much a bonus. Whining about NGSW while only focusing on the rifle is retarded.
>Everyone keeps forgetting the MG. We wanted a new MG that could fire further than the M249
Except the program parameters say the opposite. It prioritized the rifle.
1. They did; LMGs fed from 20rd box mags have been a thing for as long as LMGs have existed as a concept
2. The solicitation didn't specifically request a belt-fed automatic rifle and, again, explicitly considered the rifle a priority
3. The TVC ammo works in any existing .308 gun with a barrel swap, so even if the GD AR had been a sticking point, they could've just rebarreled some 240s while they came up with an excuse to buy Negevs or KAC AMGs or whatever
>Actual shooters dislike bullpups.
5.56 guns.
6.8x51 rifle with all gizmos is the 11 lbs brick. You want rear balancing of the bullpup for such gun.
Also 5.56 were designed around 300m range, you can easily reach that with shorty 5.56, bullpup main advantage has no use here. But when you priorities shift to more power more range bullpup clearly shines.
>abandoned
France. Because they destroyed the factories like fucking morons. >forgets Austria >forgets Israel >forgets Australia >forgets Singapore >forgets United Kingdom
The irregular/special troops of literally all of these nations use bullpups, or, ironically, variations of the MCX. The SAS just bought this newest variation of it.
>forgets Israel
Read up on them, they are not happy with the Tavor (pic related, source below): >https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2023/08/24/blk-lbl-tavor-x95-bipod-handguard/
>forgets Australia
Literally irrelevant
>forgets Singapore
They are actually in the process of dumping their bullpups in a similar method the marines adopted the IAR (adopt a "LMG" that ends up being used for everything): >https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2023/05/08/singapore-replace-ultimax-colt-iar/
>forgets United Kingdom
Half their forces at this point use C8s/AR15s
Actual shooters can make anything work, and what they have to make work is usually an HK416 because it's functionally equivalent to what America is using and isn't ITAR-restricted.like an actual M4
I don't have my VPN on, how do I delete this. I signed a NDA so obviously I'm not telling you cunt anything. Certainly not that this beat all competitors and that the ADF will be making an order in 2023-24 financial year.
The Sig won because it was the best contestant. I know that the futuristic-looking guns loosing makes you seethe and mald for eternity but aesthetics amount for nothing in these programs. Also TV was rejected very likely due to intrinsic reliability issues.
It could be better positioned but people make too big of a deal out of it imo
A 30-40% reduction in ammo weight is a fair tradeoff for moving your hand slightly forward or back
Even then, one mlok slot to allow a grip would fix the problem
I'm pretty sure previous prototypes using CT ammo actually had ejection ports on the rear right side of the receiver while remaining in a normal rifle configuration. I'm not sure why this wasn't the case on the NGSW submission.
meh. The spear deserved to win. It fulfilled the requirements better than the competitors, and was much more realistic when it came to getting the ammo supply chain up and running. The two charging handle thing is goofy, but they'll almost certainly take one off after the A1 update. You also have to appreciate what sig did, better performance than a .308 out of a 20 inch barrel, with only a 13 inch barrel, without the gun blowing itself up, while basically, for all intents and purposes weighing the same as an M4. A lot of people who say the spear weighs a lot more don't count the M4 as having a suppressor, while the spear always has one. Fuck those disingenuous gays. (M4 upgraded: 7.74lbs, spear 9.84 w/ suppressor, M4 w/ suppressor is probably 8.75 or so, oh geez a whopping 1lb difference, your moron arms can't handle that I guess)
>without the gun blowing itself up
retards still say "BARREL LIFE BARREL LIFE" automatically any time NGSW comes up without realizing the military saw Sig demonstrated insane barrel (& machinery) lifespan in a high pressure setup at a time where the competitors were all still trying to deliver a single working prototype, and that was in fact the thing that sunk the competition
these are known facts ignored for Fuddlore fantasy about magic bullpup guns
The Spear wasn't built for this, anyway - NGSW was, and they are only superficially similar (mostly played up for marketing reasons)
I can only imagine the salivation over what manners of exotic shit you can fire using such conditions thanks to the larger package, once the DOD put two and two together
>retards still say "BARREL LIFE BARREL LIFE" automatically any time NGSW comes up without realizing the military saw Sig demonstrated insane barrel (& machinery) lifespan in a high pressure setup at a time where the competitors were all still trying to deliver a single working prototype, and that was in fact the thing that sunk the competition
these are known facts ignored for Fuddlore fantasy about magic bullpup guns
Where can this data be found?
If this is true that would make the proposed reduced power training loads pointless. I'm really skeptical of this claim.
>Barrel life has been a major challenge since day one. We fought with barrel and component life three years ago. Now, I’m not nervous about barrel life. The M4’s barrel life is set at 6,000 rounds. We started at meeting the Army threshold for NGSW of 5,000 rounds and now we’re getting in excess of 10,000 rounds thanks to metallurgy and proprietary coatings. >A lot of people are fixated on barrels, but it’s not just barrels that are stressed with these high pressure rounds. What about the bolt? The carrier? The extractor? >Over the past two-and-a-half years we’ve used analysis of our guns and ammunition and integrated new materials and coatings to exceed what the Army spec’d in NGSW.
Interview with Ron Cohen prior to program completion. "In excess of 10,000" later revealed to be 12,000, which swamps the M4 despite the much higher strain. This is - again - when the competition was still struggling with "the bolt, the carrier, the extractor," and just plain getting a gun to fire consistently and effectively using all the other exotic ammo and designs. >If this is true that would make the proposed reduced power training loads pointless. I'm really skeptical of this claim.
I don't care if you're "skeptical," some of these quotes would be felonious if they were made inaccurately due to the nature of the contract and no one at Sig was ever taken to court. US military manufacturers are under immense legal pressure to understate, which is why Sig being so loud about massive successes prior to NGSW's completion was a big deal. Yet people still thought the other companies were in competition when they had no similar claims to share -at all- for essentially 2 whole years.
"The barrel life is 12,000 rounds" at full pressure doesn't mean it's not a good idea to have lower powered rounds in general for a huge range of reasons, like all of the other past guns and caliber types the US has fielded.
barrel life
[...]
where the fuck are you getting 7.74 lb for an m4
I mean it wouldn't be the first time someone with the last name "Cohen" lied.
I still find it hard to believe and will have to wait and see actually test results for myself. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they're using slow fire numbers for the spear.
1 month ago
Anonymous
the US prosecutes 400 or so people yearly for much smaller transgressions >I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they're using slow fire numbers for the spear.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were a dumb cunt who doesn't know how any of this works
"using slow fire numbers" for a military acquisition project would get Sig dissolved as a company, or at least fined millions, as other companies have (see Operation Illwind)
I am looping back to my initial position: none of you retards are typing anything of substance or in any way sharing your "thoughts" in good faith, it is just >BARREL LIFE BARREL LIFE
despite all evidence to the contrary.
Sorry, we don't live in your local Kmart dollar bin, with modern machining you can have a gun with 3000 FPS and shoot it more than twice before it explodes.
1 month ago
Anonymous
barrel life >all evidence to the contrary.
where is this evidence? are you eating up cohen's stated number that m4 is only good up to 6k rounds?
1 month ago
Anonymous
>are you eating up cohen's stated number that m4 is only good up to 6k rounds?
Yeah you stupid cunt that's literally what the official barrel life standard for the M4 is. That doesn't mean every or any barrel detonates at 6k rounds.
Do you think the NGSW-R test model's barrel spontaneously combusted at 12,000, just cracked in half? They tested at least a few dozen and found what the lowest round life for a mm or so of gouging with a high tolerance was, and it's twice as high as the M4.
Public statements of fact, i.e. why Sig won and [your shit company here] lost, are legally binding in this case. You are not privy to anything beyond that for good reason, you can barely even read and comprehend what IS made public.
Don't talk about things you don't understand.
1 month ago
Anonymous
chf ar-15 barrels shoot sub-moa for 20+k rounds
1 month ago
Anonymous
I don't care. "chf ar-15 barrels" "shoot" "sub-moa" for as many rounds as they please, that isn't what Cohen or the US DOD are describing when they say how many rounds a barrel lasts. It's an infinitely higher standard than whatever stupid asstarded shit you're doing at your local range.
1 month ago
Anonymous
What is with dudes moving goal posts man? Talking about some other barrel instead of the one that's already talked about and is being used as an example of.
1 month ago
Anonymous
It's autisc meandering to avoid admitting that >muh FPS muh barrel life
was always Fudd shit for noguns to cry about, because they lubbed GD's 3D model offering soo much, and they weren't going to be disturbed with any of the things actually happening in NGSW's development.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>real guns, real ammo, real test fire >3d model offering >tested to work with multiple other rifles with a simple barrel change with zero complaints >3d model offering
1 month ago
Anonymous
what the fuck are you even talking about? 3d models? Lay off the fucking LSD for once
1 month ago
Anonymous
retard
1 month ago
Anonymous
You type like you're the reason the gene pool needs lifeguards
1 month ago
Anonymous
that doesn't quite make sense but thanks for the (you)
1 month ago
Anonymous
so basically you want me to take cohen's words and interpret it as "it's more than good enough"
and you're mad at me for not falling for it despite there """all evidence to the contrary"" (there's zero evidence besides his words btw)
and cohen stating 6k m4 barrel life are god's own words but real life ar barrels shooting 20+k is irrelevant anecdote
1 month ago
Anonymous
He's telling you to quit moving goal posts and actually accept reality.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>cohen's words
It's literally a press release and he put a minimum at 10,000. If you did any research at all you'd know other press releases specified over 12,000. >interpret it
I don't expect you to interpret anything, you're retarded. The number beat the DOD's asked-for number. That's it. None of the other companies EVER claimed to do so in any concrete way. Why? >there's zero evidence besides his words btw
Go get clearance you jobless gay. >6k m4 barrel life are god's own words
M4 barrels are literally rated for 6,000 rounds and have been since they went to heavy barrels (it was way lower before). You don't know what "barrel life" means per DOD/engineering tolerances and you don't care because you are assmad. That's fine, but it won't make you any less gay.
>real guns, real ammo, real test fire >3d model offering >tested to work with multiple other rifles with a simple barrel change with zero complaints >3d model offering
Name the garden gnome and it recoils in terror
1 month ago
Anonymous
He's probably going to start posting sigger threads in a little bit since that's how these types of convos usually end.
1 month ago
Anonymous
's zero evidence besides his words btw >Go get clearance you jobless gay. >hey bro I know that I have literally no evidence short of trusting the word of an actual literal ethnic garden gnome so I'm just going to tell you to get security clearance
Why do you have such a hard time understanding that saying "well our new rifle firing a piss hot cartridge has twice as much barrel life as one firing a smaller, much less hor round" is something that absolutely needs evidence
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
MilSpec AR barrels are absolute dog shit.
They use barrel forging techniques that were outdated over 50 years ago.
Look at the Marines' HK416s that have barrels that 'last forever' because they're made like firearms components in the 2010s rather than the 1920s.
There is nothing surprising about modern barrels made with modern manufacturing techniques out-competing atavistic components made to a spec that is caveman-tier.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
M4 is buttoned barrel (because buttoned is more accurate!(.
HK416 is cold forged barrel.
Yeah cold forged barrels have at least double service life.
1 month ago
Anonymous
bububububububububu a basedboi on twitter who also browses the chans sad sig bad so that means I have to have that opinion too bro!!!!!!!
>We started at meeting the Army threshold for NGSW of 5,000 rounds and now we’re getting in excess of 10,000 rounds thanks to metallurgy and proprietary coatings.
If that same technology were applied to M4 barrels the barrel life would exceed Sig's limit of 12,000 rounds handily. Because it fires stock 5.56 not Bubba's pissing hot factory loads.
the US prosecutes 400 or so people yearly for much smaller transgressions >I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they're using slow fire numbers for the spear.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were a dumb cunt who doesn't know how any of this works
"using slow fire numbers" for a military acquisition project would get Sig dissolved as a company, or at least fined millions, as other companies have (see Operation Illwind)
I am looping back to my initial position: none of you retards are typing anything of substance or in any way sharing your "thoughts" in good faith, it is just >BARREL LIFE BARREL LIFE
despite all evidence to the contrary.
Sorry, we don't live in your local Kmart dollar bin, with modern machining you can have a gun with 3000 FPS and shoot it more than twice before it explodes.
>with modern machining you can have a gun with 3000 FPS and shoot it more than twice before it explodes.
With an old bullpup you can have the same or higher velocity using standard NATO spec ammo without the parts erosion or obnoxious size. The lengths conventiomorons have to go to to squeeze out more fps...
That’s not entirely true. The two-piece high pressure ammo is expensive and the secret armor piercing tungsten ammunition of which the army is manufacturing the projectiles is even more expensive. Probably why they would be training with single piece brass ball ammo as consumer prices for .277 ball is around $30 for a box of 20.
It’s worth noting that polymer-cased .308 TV ammo is $70-80 per box of 20. I have seen it as high as $90, and that is .308 not 6.8. Very interesting considering the main marketable trait of this ammunition was affordability and simplicity in manufacturing. I can’t imagine what the caseless ammo would cost. And what unit cost on the rifle and MG would’ve been.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>It’s worth noting that polymer-cased .308 TV ammo is $70-80 per box of 20. I have seen it as high as $90, and that is .308 not 6.8. Very interesting considering the main marketable trait of this ammunition was affordability and simplicity in manufacturing.
This isn't a fair comparison anon. Like anything new you can only approach the fundamentals price with massive, massive mass production. Polymer cased (and telescoped too) is fundamentally much cheaper and easier than brass if you approach the cost of Bill of Materials. But the only way that would happen is if the military had selected it and they'd started producing tens of millions of rounds (and other manufacturers did so too and it got popular with civilians).
Like come on you know this and are familiar with it because normal ammo is identical. Why is 9mm massively cheaper than .32ACP? It's not because it uses less metal. Why us 308 cheaper than .22-250, or .243 for that matter. Again, it's not like 308 are smaller bullets with less material in them. It's all down to mass production. Only when stuff gets produced in equivalently humongous quantities does the price really start to get dictated by BOM.
meh. The spear deserved to win. It fulfilled the requirements better than the competitors, and was much more realistic when it came to getting the ammo supply chain up and running. The two charging handle thing is goofy, but they'll almost certainly take one off after the A1 update. You also have to appreciate what sig did, better performance than a .308 out of a 20 inch barrel, with only a 13 inch barrel, without the gun blowing itself up, while basically, for all intents and purposes weighing the same as an M4. A lot of people who say the spear weighs a lot more don't count the M4 as having a suppressor, while the spear always has one. Fuck those disingenuous gays. (M4 upgraded: 7.74lbs, spear 9.84 w/ suppressor, M4 w/ suppressor is probably 8.75 or so, oh geez a whopping 1lb difference, your moron arms can't handle that I guess)
Hope they give you a 15 cent raise at sig for this. >It fulfilled the requirements better than the competitors
Not really, and the requirements were retarded anyways. >and was much more realistic when it came to getting the ammo supply chain up and running
The other two competitors used polymer ammo, which isn't hard to make and is much easier to scale. TV states this on their site >80% reduction in manufacturing footprint compared to brass
https://www.tvammo.com/innovation/manufacturing
Where as sig has to add steps to an already large and intensive process, both Textron and TV would actually shrink those huge production lines. >You also have to appreciate what sig did, better performance than a .308 out of a 20 inch barrel, with only a 13 inch barrel, without the gun blowing itself up
Cramming a shitload of powder into a gun and beefing up the parts is not impressive. >A lot of people who say the spear weighs a lot more don't count the M4 as having a suppressor, while the spear always has one
Because the M4 doesn't need a suppressor because it isn't firing an >85k psi cartridge that will evaporate your eardrums.
Whenever I read "meh" I know I'm about to read something typed out by an extremely feminine man who can't bench press his own body weight. Please have a nice day you cum guzzling moron.
>oh geez a whopping 1lb difference
Still heavier than a M4. Ounces are pounds, pounds are pain. Talk about optimized, why not carry 30mm autocannons at that point, you're not a pussy are you?
In order of innovation with room to expand? Yeah textron hands down. Bu that is a pretty large leap and it might be too much. I would have gone with GD simply because their ammo was the best compromise out of all of them. Effectively backwards compatible with everything in 7.62 and easily adjustable for other cartridges. I have no issue with bullpups but would have been fine tossing the weapons for a new contest based on the TV 6.8 ammo. Never would have chosen ~~*SIG*~~ from the issues with their optic submission the entirety of the 320, and the just bare minimum pipe bomb that is the XM7. They did basically nothing of value, but the army has wanted SIG to take over domestic production of all our small arms for a decade or so now so it just goes to the siggers automatically
The SIG Spear is bad because.... it just is!!!!!
I have yet to see one convincing argument against the Spear's adoption aside from assmad Glock owners and bullpup pants shitters
SIG has been making guns for people in $250k in gear to shoot people in the face with longer than True Velocity has been a company. Plastic ammunition and caseless ammunition are fucking jokes and the Spear is the only actual gun of the three, the rest are just ideas an Indian engineering intern modeled in CAD which is why they look so fucking ugly.
Why is it that bullpups attract the biggest mouth breathers?
Does it count to complain that the rear sights of new M18s keep popping off since they forgot to locktight them in? It’s a pain in the ass to get those things back on since you have to take apart the striker to get to the screwholes for the rear sight. That and the slide is either good after 200-300 rounds or it isn’t; by that I mean it breaks in some way or it just works. Recon tore through a bunch of M18s when they initially broke in all their pistols, and from what I’ve seen it either works out of the box or it’s a pile of trash. QC really do be lacking at nuSIG
SIG made millions of P320s and M17/8s and monthly there is a picture of one, maybe two with minor serviceable defects. What exactly does this prove about QC? That it’s not perfect? That is the idea behind quality control.
I'm so sorry the superiority of the raging bull has given you such a complex about your lesser firearm. And that feeling will only grow, electronic firing and smart gun bullpups soon!
did the civvie version get shitcanned entirely? was supposed to come out last winter or something seems to have vanished off the internet. kinda a shame yeah figured they might have wanted to try recouping some $$$$$ from civvie gun market
My friend you should avoid such conspiracy thinking. Sig is one of the greatest firearms companies with a noble history and would not stoop to such things. Their products speak for themselves of great quality as shown by being selected by the USA Armies to replace the obsolete M16 guns. This was done by their great superiority and innovation on all measures to copycat competitors. Someday if you work hard you may be able to own a properly civilized version of the new standard military rifle!
>people designed the weapon using modern technology thus bad
What in the fuck are you talking about? Do you think SIG doesn't use CAD to design shit? They just lock some fucker in a room with paper and pencil and tell him to come out with prints if he wants to eat?
Why are sig shills like this?
Textron designed one of the ugliest most retarded operating guns ever put to testing and General Dynamics' machine gun submission was the same fuckugly piece of shit bullpup with a longer/heavier barrel.
I would fire each and every person associated with this project at both of these companies.
You are literally just making shit up.
It's horrendous design from sig, you can find multiple videos from multiple people having this issue with guns that have never been taken apart.
Some people have carefully reinstalled according to sig spec to ensure that it wasn't just something loose, and it still happens.
who? the army? yeah they have lots of money, and they're giving sig all that money
if the army was tight on money, they'd just adopt true velocity's cartridge and rebarrel every gun in the inventory
Well, silently cancelled. They were betting on winning the contract so they could have the capital to produce civilian ones but then found out they didn't win.
smoothbore is based and the future
its only fault is that it wasn't an even larger bore diameter like 9mm which would let it have a shorter barrel and keep its energy
Should have put a more conventional suppressor on it instead of that toilet plunger design, but apparently then it would be over the retarded length limit the program had. Of course the "suppressors for everyone" trend is retarded to begin with. Active hearing protection is a thing and doesn't put put add that weight and size to the end of the barrel. Let the special ops types use suppressors as needed versus yet another thing for the average infantryman and everyone else to carry.
Also the lack of a neck on the TV 6.8mm cartridge was stupid. The greenies are going to hate all that plastic pollution everywhere and they actually have a point considering all the damn plastics in our blood.
About the winning SIG design there are way too many holes cut into the handguard. It's just stupid and they should tone that down a bit. 13" barrel is rather short for the requirements they're aiming at which is part of the reason the pressures are so high. But once again that's the retarded overall length requirement where the entire rifle with suppressor attached couldn't be any longer than a standard M4 carbine.
Also we're done playing in the desert for the foreseeable future turn the desert tan/coyote or whatever the fuck that color is to olive drab or something more suitable for temperate climates.
I could run this damn program better than the Army has been.
Also still need an improved 5.56mm or similar lightweight caliber carbine to replace the M4s that the XM7 won't replace. An updated M4 could do it probably.
But potato can is literally best suppressor out there.
(Though it has larger back pressure than flow through cans, but if their rifle has ni issues with back pressure why not?)
First Textron round is pseudo telescopic.
Second it was worst round ever designed. There is no reason to design round like that unless you go caseless. If you want plastic round just make it from plastic like TV did.
Basedboys only slob over Textron because it's "le futuristic like in my comic books". This is FACT.
>pseudo telescopic.
Are you a retard that only believes that caseless is telescopic? >There's no reason to design a round like that unless you go caseless
Yes there is. More propellant than traditional cartridges while having one of the drawbacks of caseless, such as having no case to act as a heat sink. Cased telescopic is objectively superior to caseless and traditional rounds.
>More propellant than traditional cartridges
Literally wrong. And on top of no advantages Textron round bring on table problems of long freebore and moving chamber misalignments.
Again making round telescoped (and Textron is pseudo telescoped there is no pwoeder ahead of the dring part of the bullet, G11 was telescoped Textron is not) is to use caseless, because you can't extract careless usual way. Textron started as caseless, it failed and they got legacy from that start, snd there is new good reason to use this design.
>And on top of no advantages
Weight reduction and volume reduction don't matter? News to everyone who has had to lug an ammo can. Dispersion was also quite minimal in testing for the 5.56mm at least.
LSAT was quite successful and Textron's NGSW entry was built upon that. Even if it wasn't mature enough now the ammunition is worth continued development work.
Says one of the neckless basedboys slobbering over the similarly neckless TV round? If you're going plastic might as well the way and go the Textron route.
he's right
cased telescoped ammunitions get their extra propellant from having more case space around the bullet
textron's offering has none of that, it's completely empty
it offers no advantage compared to an exposed bullet design, and has the disadvantage of the bullet not seating in the bore
Says one of the neckless basedboys slobbering over the similarly neckless TV round? If you're going plastic might as well the way and go the Textron route.
If the Congress/Army brass weren't retarded, then it wouldn't have been an all-or-nothing package deal.
The MG is always more important than the infantry rifle. They chose the best MG for a compromise on the rifle.
It was the best of the 3 options, but the program goals were deeply flawed and based on bad assumptions. It would have been better to just cancel the whole thing and adjust tactics to incorporate smart weapons at the squad or fireteam level.
>every retard grunt should be a DMR+ with smart gear and thus need big range.
An 18yo kid that barely qualified to 500m on a static range is not going to hit shit at 800+ under combat stress. Multiple studies have shown that under combat stress accuracy drops off a cliff after just 100m, and is effectively zero at the ranges this rifle is expected to OVERMATCH at. Increasing the weight does not help the boot. Increasing the chamber pressure erodes the rifling more quickly, effectively hurting the boot. Increasing the recoil reduces the accuracy of followup shots, this also hurts the boot. Reducing magazine capacity and increasing ammo weight reduces the amount of ammo the boot can carry on patrol, hurting the boot. The US Army brassholes have long wanted to bring back the M14. This is just how they justified it in the 21st century.
The scope is good. Considering that laser range finders have been available commercially for so long I can scarcely remember a time when they weren't, a rangefinder scope is long overdue.
Also, this: >Sub-Factor 1 - User Acceptance
is absolute bullshit. The guys given the bullpup rifle whined and moaned like morones because it wasn't something they were accustomed to. The bullpup layout is objectively better, this is a scientifically proven fact based on dynamics (physics).
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0018720813509107?icid=int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.3
You use the equipment you're issued or you can scrub latrines until you eas.
The only reason we aren't all using bullpups is because of bitch fudds that insist small arms peaked with the M14 and 1911.
>The scope is good. Considering that laser range finders have been available commercially for so long I can scarcely remember a time when they weren't, a rangefinder scope is long overdue.
If what you say about the average infantryman is correct (which it is) why do those average infantrymen need some 1-8x LPVO? A 1/4x optic that weighs less would do fine.
Squad designated marksmen who presumably can shoot pretty good can get the fancy LPVO.
they need to hit shit at 800+m before combat begins, obviously. nobody's going to be out-ranging these retards. >increasing weight
doesn't matter, they're not humping it >erodes rifling
boo hoo, they don't even shoot much and the military has infinity dollars. >followup shots
nobody's magdumping at 800+m >hurts the boot
hahahahahahahahaha
Of the service rifle contenders, yes. But the entire NGSW was a badly run shitshow and they should have just canned the whole thing and started over doing it right, or waiting another few years for some of the smart tech to really finish baking. NGSW should have started with an ambitious and standardized fully refined cartridge, ideally PCT like the Textron. If going to the amount of fucking trouble it is to replace all service rifles and standard ammo make it count jesus. Then once that was done have everyone compete with that as the target, and split the service rifle and LMG into separate parallel tracks. Different companies can win each.
Sig had the shittiest rifle but the best LMG and that's what the military actually cared about between the two for better or worse.
it's definitely possible to make a good rifle out of the Sig cartridge
gonna try that if it gets actual traction
>it's definitely possible to make a good rifle out of the Sig cartridge
I'm extremely skeptical of that statement
The army should've said they wanted a good LMG in their RFP though. Instead they said they did NOT care about the SAW portion more, that the rifle and SAW were equally important, even forbidding the usage of a quick change barrel. Yet somehow the SAW was what tipped the scales. Absolute stupidity.
The Fury round is just Bubba's pissing hot wildcat but "government approved". I have a hard time believing a round that averages 80k psi is sustainable long term.
I was thinking about making a 7mm-08 LR-308 build at some point, so if by the time I get around to that somebody's made a barrel and bolt combo for 6.8 Gay Furry or whatever I'll just run that instead
>that the rifle and SAW were equally important
IIRC, the rifle was stated to be of greater priority.
Not only that, but the program requirements even said the "LMG" (I think it was an "automatic rifle" in the program requirements) could be magazine loaded, it didn't even specify whether it had to be belt-fed or not.
it was
>the best LMG and that's what the military actually cared about between the two for better or worse.
false, especially considering that the TV ammo could be dropped into any existing 7.62 NATO gun with just a barrel swap
>false, especially considering that the TV ammo could be dropped into any existing 7.62 NATO gun with just a barrel swap
No, TRUE, regardless of what the EC said. It was made really clear during the actual competition. I was talking the real world and statements from decision makers truth, not the dumb text that the generals don't believe in. Service rifle not very important under old doctrine.
>ask for a rifle and MG
>say the rifle is more important and that the MG can basically be a modernized BAR if you want
>actually want a really good MG and don't care about the rifle at all
Were the creators of the program women?
>I have a hard time believing a round that averages 80k psi is sustainable long term.
120mm tank APFSDS are up yo 100k psi. Its it sustainable? Yes it is. Just one little trick, steel case base. Fudds hate him.
>Its it sustainable? Yes it is.
How many thousands of rounds can it shoot? Enlighten us
>I have a hard time believing a round that averages 80k psi is sustainable long term.
Yeah, metallurgy hasn't progressed at all since the 1950s...
it really hasn't
7075 is still the premiere aluminum alloy, and it was reverse engineered from jap wwii planes
Most steel alloys used in guns are ancient too. 4150 has been around since the early 1920s.
You aren't looking at the real cutting edge of stuff. The monocrystal superalloys in turbine blades is crazy stuff. There's also steel "glass" (NO crystalline structure). Ultimately, stuff like 7075 are still used for basic structural aircraft components and stuff like that. It doesn't require being the cutting edge. When you're spinning so fast and hot that normal heat resistant superalloys stretch until the blades shred the housing, then you are on the cutting edge.
None of that exotic stuff is used in Sig's guns. They use the same materials as any other rifle on the market.
>None of that exotic stuff is used in Sig's guns. They use the same materials as any other rifle on the market.
No you dumb fuck, the barrel is maraging steel.
>it really hasn't
Current cryo stress relief makes lightweight profile barrels not have as much dispersion when heating up, nitriding, CHF, chrome and other processes have become better over the years.
>7075 is still the premiere aluminum alloy
Good thing it's not used to contain that 80 ksi then
>maraging steel
which is from the 1950s
>Current cryo stress relief makes lightweight profile barrels not have as much dispersion when heating up, nitriding, CHF, chrome and other processes have become better over the years.
does it make it hold up against 80k psi better? no? ok
>which is from the 1950s
Maraging is a whole class of steels. Here's one patented in 2019.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF-96
>does it make it hold up against 80k psi better?
You're completely missing the point about metallurgy having progressed since the 50s. Probably on purpose because you're still pushing the narrative that 80ksi chamber pressure is impossible because 2020 metallurgy is the same as what it was in the 50s, for some weird-ass reason.
ok then what point am i missing
what metallurgy has progressed that allows for hyper pressurized chambers and bores
i await your answer
The barrel is just chrome lined 4150 like any other generic AR barrel.
No it's not.
https://www.guns.com/news/reviews/army-new-battle-rifle-sig-mcx-spear
>what metallurgy has progressed that allows for hyper pressurized chambers and bores
Putting maraging steels through CHF to make barrels
so 1950s technology merged with 1940s technology, very nice
this is bait
>muh single crystals
>muh metal glass
Surprised you didn't mention high entropy alloys you meme-loving fuck.
>I have a hard time believing a round that averages 80k psi is sustainable long term.
IIRC the official Army excuse was "the soldier using the gun will probably be killed or otherwise rotated out before the barrel is shot out, and that's good enough" or something like that.
Sig should have been disqualified for their retarded plan that you shoot weaker loads in training to reduce wear and tear on the gun, and shoot the hot rounds only in combat
In what fucking world is it a good idea to not train with your fighting round.
makes perfect sense if you're an unfrozen 70s cop who just got the memo about Model 19s
the amount of dumb shit requirements that just happen to break sig's way has convinced me that the army is tossing them softball contracts to try to stand up a domestic manufacturer large enough to replace colt so they can stop buying everything from FN
>domestic manufacturer
NAFTA at least
>make 80k psi rounds
>enemies with shitty guns can't use your ammo because they know it will blow up their shitty guns
big thinks
>The army should've said they wanted a good LMG in their RFP though. Instead they said they did NOT care about the SAW portion more, that the rifle and SAW were equally important, even forbidding the usage of a quick change barrel. Yet somehow the SAW was what tipped the scales. Absolute stupidity.
Everyone should just have a SAWs except heavy weapons squad where the AG abd AB get carbines to save weight for more 240 762
>t. 11B
>NGSW should have started with an ambitious and standardized fully refined cartridge, ideally PCT like the Textron
Textron cope pseudotelecopic round is flawed by design and rightfully lost.
Only reason basedscience boys slop over Texron is "muh futuristic".
>the best LMG
General Dynamics saved a shit ton of money and parts commonality by making their MG contender just a barrel swap of the M60 and M249. All both required was a barrel swap and they could run their new 6.8 cartridge, and all the old 5.56 and 7.62x51 could remain I service until it was all spent. GD had the most genius design and best idea for MGs, especially in terms of tax dollars saved.
umm sweaty... don't you know it's a 3d model offering? that they're struggling with the bolt, the carrier, the extractor, and having the rifle fire consistently and effectively?
>muh barrel swap
banned not a factor for consideration
sig dominates as they always will suck it sig is the best and knows what military wants
Textron offered a laughable option, Sig offered a laughable option, but the GD... goddamn she was something else. I hold that corruption is what killed its chances, and that's pretty much confirmed by the fact that the guy who owns Sig IS gnomish.
>Sig had the shittiest rifle but the best LMG and that's what the military actually cared about between the two for better or worse.
Yup, thats German infantry in a nutshell in ww2.
if only America were more like Nazi Germany in literally every other respect
you want to lose more wars?
How?
sig also had realistic (cheap) cartridge. also doesn't the LMG take mags? might as well just throw them at any rifleman too.
>sig also had realistic (cheap) cartridge
>thinking that a bimetal press fit round designed to hold >85k psi is the "cheap" option when its competitors are using literal plastic cartridges
Someone post the image showing that the US military was paying like $1-$2 per round for .277 fury because I can't find it.
oh no doubt that over the longest possible term the plastic conversion would probably be cheaper but that involves so many system-wide overhauls just to carry the ammo before it ever reaches a gun. it was never going to be picked up.
such a load of horseshit
what system wide overhauls would there be? they use magazines just like regular cartridges
light, heat insulation. maybe long term tests on their proprietary glues.
sorry, i don't get how this is an issue
it's polymer cased, not caseless
polymer is a much better insulator than brass, and is very mature technologically in the industry
polymer degrades in UV light, i.e. sunlight.
now you're just being disingenuous
less-extreme heat like being inside of a shipping container in the sun can also damage plastics significantly.
>significantly
no
it doesn't damage them at all, considering most plastics have operating temperatures well above 100c
if the shipping container got anywhere near that temperature, the entire ship is probably totalled
even specific heat-resistant nylons have some limited amount of degradation in medium-warm temperatures. who knows what their glues are doing.
it's also pretty resistant to petroleum products, but not completely. light exposure to acids or most chemical cleaning products? completely out of the question. unlike a metal case it won't rust it will just invisibly be compromised and you find out when it fucks you.
the case heads aren't glued, they're fused together
TV uses primer sealant on the necks of their commercial 308 ammo, but that's not any different from primer sealant used in brass ammo
polymer does not get "damaged" in mild heat
at most, they get "annealed," (and this requires extreme atmospheric heat) which works in favor of polymer used for casings since it's the opposite direction from brittleness
3d printing people sometimes use this annealing feature as a strengthening method for their prints
If you're going to complain about plastic degrading in sunlight, then you should also be complaining about bimetallic corrosion in SIG's cartridges.
yeah but idk that much about that. i dont suppose surface corrosion would be a huge issue but i am already astounded that case doesn't separate with their pressures at zero corrosion.
Tooling is a major thing to worry about on top of the completely different way said ammunition has to be made.
that's from the manufacturer's side, and tv's ammunition really isn't that different from conventional ammo
there's zero effort to be made on the military side
Tooling wise its even easier since a brass case needs like 10 or so machiens to draw out the starting disk to the right shape, carve a rim and then drill a primer pocket. TV could use MIM for their steel base and injection molding for their polymer
Uh close the lid on the ammo can? You don't really leave ammo sitting out in the sun to begin with man.
Of course, you should just make it completely air and light tight... BUT then you have to do a complete review of your ammo cases and make sure they're chemically compatible. And the shipping and storage/warehouse processes. Every single step from factory to armory will need some certification. You'll need form a committee to develop the certification process. You'll need HR to cover the staffing of certification process. and so on and so on.
per military branch!
I sided with TV's design the second i heard the base was magnetic. Do you have any idea how much time that save police calling all that "brass" I don't even have to bend down now i can just sweep the whole range with a magnet.
And why would existing cans with airtight/watertight seals not be used? Why would this process be different for adopting literally any other ammo?
other ammo is grandfathered in
>Someone post the image showing that the US military was paying like $1-$2 per round for .277 fury because I can't find it.
Initial batches of M855A1 costed like $0.8, now they cost less than M855 before switch (adjusted for inflation). I remember Dr. Roberts had insane long rants about how bad and expensive M855A1 is. But then gel and armor shots of M855A1 were dropped.
>Sig had the shittiest rifle but the best LMG and that's what the military actually cared about between the two for better or worse.
This cope again. The NGSW parameters had the rifle listed more important than the LMG. If the army wanted a new LMG they should have put that first
But someone on Facebook said it's bad so that means it's bad
the fact of the matter is all of the rifles were garbage. they were essentially disqualified for being shit on every level, sig's shit was the least new shit.
I have a feeling they'll drop the rifle and keep the LMG and will try again in another five years
if the army is smart, they'll go back on the "no quick change barrel" thing and use the M250 to replace both the 249 and the 240L
then they'll go back to the M4 until either caseless or polymer cased ammo matures
why didn't H&K try the G11 again guys, I bet they could have got it to work, especially if they designed it to be open bolt so there was no chance of a bullet cook-off.
Because they're drowning in money already from the HK416 being almost as popular as Multicam?
Remember that this is the only Bullpup to get a SOCOM contract
who is the cute lesbian holding that rifle
Xir is name is Hope (Formerly hop)
huh
that's a time traveling young ben shapiro
That's Hop from TFBtv and he is my aunt, so you better show some respect, young mister.
Fresh off the boat from reddit, gays?
Are you retarded?
Reminds me of that one russian dmr from R6S.
Proofs?
Why haven't they put it on the civilian market yet bros...
Needed the money from a successful contract win to start production because otherwise it would be too expensive to produce for the civilian market so they silently cancelled it
I agree, but I mean really offering the US army a bullpup? They were never going to win.
shit bullpup with 80s ergos and controls anyways
it's pretty retarded for the US to have the most versatile and customizable weapons platform (the AR) and not just change the caliber
thats the army for you. the same retards that chose the M14 over the Ar-10 or FAL
and adopted a universal camo that blended into nowhere except a few specific places.
Because AR-15 action is too small and anemic to handle extra beefy rounds like 277 furry. AR-10 has a bit more room but if you really want to achieve retarded pressure you have to basically abandon the AR and make something like the Nemo Omen which has no parts commonality and a different manual of arms. Also fuck the T charging handle. It's not good and I'm tired of people pretending it is
>it’s the weird charging handle guy again
He’s right fuck the AR charging handle
The US military is literally so god damned retarded that they even demanded sig put a SECOND charging handle on the XM5, because they are so buck broken by the AR that they can’t cope with the left side non reciprocating charging handle
Anon I hope you know this shit barely matters in the grand scheme of things and the vast majority of service members will not care at all
Yeah but it’s gay
I think it speaks to how retarded the US procurement of this rifle has been. Loads of shit, irrelevant requirements that are either useless or outright detrimental.
>US Solider here,
Fuck the charging handle. my bolt hold open broke somehow and let me tell you i have nothing but burning hatred for the T handle. Its not horrible if you only have to use it once, but it is retardation incarnate if you have to use it more then once. Fuck shooting qual with that piece of shit
>Another US Soldier here,
I too had an incident in which something broke and now claim it is inferior. It was a skilcraft pencil.
>Reading comprehension
And your point is?
>the T handle is a shit charging handle and the cope of using the BHO 98% of the time doesn't make it a good charging handle.
I don't understand why they wanted to get a rifle AND a machine gun out of the same contract.
Because at the center of it all was the new ammo. They told manufacturers "we want to fire this bullet at this velocity, come up with something". The only way to maintain ammo commonality was to either specify the entire cartridge (which the government didn't want or couldn't do, hence the 3 finalists being radically different designs), or to have manufacturers propose the ammunition and the weapons that fire it, rifle and MG.
>center of the contract is the ammunition
>hold the firearm and the ammunition trial at the same time
What did they mean by this?
other center of the contract was the magic optic we haven't seen yet
>hold massive contract for multiple major components at the same time
What did they mean by this?
This seems contrary to everything I know about military trials.
i think it was supposed to be a trial for a complete weapons system, like the oicw, which was later separated into multiple smaller parts in an attempt to salvage what was left
and the optic isn't even truly designed yet, it's just modular
>magic optic
lol prepare to be disappointed
its not the worst idea, just having a standard common optic is an improvement. the "smart soldier" stuff is already sort of practical on the consumer end without hardening. wonder how out of date it will be by the time it gets fielded for real.
Fucking hell. At this point the constant kvetching is making me glad that Sig won.
what makes modern guns so ugly? Is it the increased demand for modularity?
This and the desire for lighter weapons so everything is deisgned minimally or is decorated with a bunch of lightening cuts.
>bullpup
Nah, it never stood a chance. Nobody likes those things. Also the Sig LMG was literally the only option.
>Also the Sig LMG was literally the only option.
This. Everyone keeps forgetting the MG. We wanted a new MG that could fire further than the M249 while not being as heavy as the M240 or Mk48, this requred a new type of ammo, and having a rifle that was capable of shooting the same round was pretty much a bonus. Whining about NGSW while only focusing on the rifle is retarded.
The people who do that are the same type of people who bring up siggers in a thread where litterally nobody is talking about anything related to sig.
>Everyone keeps forgetting the MG. We wanted a new MG that could fire further than the M249
Except the program parameters say the opposite. It prioritized the rifle.
perhaps the rifle was the priority, but that doesn't mean TV could get away with not submitting a proper autorifle
1. They did; LMGs fed from 20rd box mags have been a thing for as long as LMGs have existed as a concept
2. The solicitation didn't specifically request a belt-fed automatic rifle and, again, explicitly considered the rifle a priority
3. The TVC ammo works in any existing .308 gun with a barrel swap, so even if the GD AR had been a sticking point, they could've just rebarreled some 240s while they came up with an excuse to buy Negevs or KAC AMGs or whatever
Bullpup makes perfect sense if your key point of the new gun is more power.
The US will literally never adopt a bullpup and there's a good chance nobody anywhere will ever again.
Actual shooters dislike bullpups. Several major militaries have abandoned them and that should tell you something.
>Actual shooters dislike bullpups.
5.56 guns.
6.8x51 rifle with all gizmos is the 11 lbs brick. You want rear balancing of the bullpup for such gun.
Also 5.56 were designed around 300m range, you can easily reach that with shorty 5.56, bullpup main advantage has no use here. But when you priorities shift to more power more range bullpup clearly shines.
>abandoned
France. Because they destroyed the factories like fucking morons.
>forgets Austria
>forgets Israel
>forgets Australia
>forgets Singapore
>forgets United Kingdom
>their special forces use AR-15's
>the non-warfighters are left with bullpups
The irregular/special troops of literally all of these nations use bullpups, or, ironically, variations of the MCX. The SAS just bought this newest variation of it.
bullpups, heh, I meant ARs
>forgets Austria
Irrelevant
>forgets Israel
Read up on them, they are not happy with the Tavor (pic related, source below):
>https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2023/08/24/blk-lbl-tavor-x95-bipod-handguard/
>forgets Australia
Literally irrelevant
>forgets Singapore
They are actually in the process of dumping their bullpups in a similar method the marines adopted the IAR (adopt a "LMG" that ends up being used for everything):
>https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2023/05/08/singapore-replace-ultimax-colt-iar/
>forgets United Kingdom
Half their forces at this point use C8s/AR15s
Australia
>Literally irrelevant
You shut your cheeky fucking fuckhole you little knuckle dragging cunt.
>Source on Israel giving up the Tavor is a picture of a comment section and a link to bipod forend for the X95
Huh, somehow I don't believe you
you're lucky it wasn't an instagram comment
>Tfw part of the half that didn't get a C8
Fucking l85 I fuckign hate it so much god
yeah, them picking the iar is definitely a bullpup replacement, because it uses magazines, unlike the ultimax...
Actual shooters can make anything work, and what they have to make work is usually an HK416 because it's functionally equivalent to what America is using and isn't ITAR-restricted.like an actual M4
The rifle sucked and it had a poor excuse of an lmg. No amount of bitching and what ifs would've given them the contract. Get a grip.
Get exited gays. New Australian NGSW.
No it isn't, thats a 3d prop thales created
I shot these as part of LAND 152. Ask me anything gay.
I don't have my VPN on, how do I delete this. I signed a NDA so obviously I'm not telling you cunt anything. Certainly not that this beat all competitors and that the ADF will be making an order in 2023-24 financial year.
BUY THALES STOCK
>>/BIZ
Australia can't stop winning. Pic rel is the F90 PDW variant.
This unironically looks sweet. The designers have a good grasp of 80s/90s sci-fi appeal
Somebody is going to lose a finger on that handguard. Not me, but somebody.
Sexy
Kino
The Sig won because it was the best contestant. I know that the futuristic-looking guns loosing makes you seethe and mald for eternity but aesthetics amount for nothing in these programs. Also TV was rejected very likely due to intrinsic reliability issues.
AUG in 6.8x51 would end better rifle than Sig shorty. But Sig made one important thing their work lead to adoption of the new modern round.
I wish Australialand wasn't so cucked and our import laws were better. I want an ef88 so bad
You just want to put the k n o b in your ass
I thought the Textron was cooler and had more potential but anything would have been better than the fucking abomination that is the Sig Spear
The ejection port on that damn thing is enough to throw that whole company in the abyss.
It could be better positioned but people make too big of a deal out of it imo
A 30-40% reduction in ammo weight is a fair tradeoff for moving your hand slightly forward or back
Even then, one mlok slot to allow a grip would fix the problem
Or just make it into a fucking bullpup like god clearly intended.
I'm pretty sure previous prototypes using CT ammo actually had ejection ports on the rear right side of the receiver while remaining in a normal rifle configuration. I'm not sure why this wasn't the case on the NGSW submission.
meh. The spear deserved to win. It fulfilled the requirements better than the competitors, and was much more realistic when it came to getting the ammo supply chain up and running. The two charging handle thing is goofy, but they'll almost certainly take one off after the A1 update. You also have to appreciate what sig did, better performance than a .308 out of a 20 inch barrel, with only a 13 inch barrel, without the gun blowing itself up, while basically, for all intents and purposes weighing the same as an M4. A lot of people who say the spear weighs a lot more don't count the M4 as having a suppressor, while the spear always has one. Fuck those disingenuous gays. (M4 upgraded: 7.74lbs, spear 9.84 w/ suppressor, M4 w/ suppressor is probably 8.75 or so, oh geez a whopping 1lb difference, your moron arms can't handle that I guess)
>without the gun blowing itself up
retards still say "BARREL LIFE BARREL LIFE" automatically any time NGSW comes up without realizing the military saw Sig demonstrated insane barrel (& machinery) lifespan in a high pressure setup at a time where the competitors were all still trying to deliver a single working prototype, and that was in fact the thing that sunk the competition
these are known facts ignored for Fuddlore fantasy about magic bullpup guns
The Spear wasn't built for this, anyway - NGSW was, and they are only superficially similar (mostly played up for marketing reasons)
I can only imagine the salivation over what manners of exotic shit you can fire using such conditions thanks to the larger package, once the DOD put two and two together
>retards still say "BARREL LIFE BARREL LIFE" automatically any time NGSW comes up without realizing the military saw Sig demonstrated insane barrel (& machinery) lifespan in a high pressure setup at a time where the competitors were all still trying to deliver a single working prototype, and that was in fact the thing that sunk the competition
these are known facts ignored for Fuddlore fantasy about magic bullpup guns
Where can this data be found?
If this is true that would make the proposed reduced power training loads pointless. I'm really skeptical of this claim.
>Barrel life has been a major challenge since day one. We fought with barrel and component life three years ago. Now, I’m not nervous about barrel life. The M4’s barrel life is set at 6,000 rounds. We started at meeting the Army threshold for NGSW of 5,000 rounds and now we’re getting in excess of 10,000 rounds thanks to metallurgy and proprietary coatings.
>A lot of people are fixated on barrels, but it’s not just barrels that are stressed with these high pressure rounds. What about the bolt? The carrier? The extractor?
>Over the past two-and-a-half years we’ve used analysis of our guns and ammunition and integrated new materials and coatings to exceed what the Army spec’d in NGSW.
Interview with Ron Cohen prior to program completion. "In excess of 10,000" later revealed to be 12,000, which swamps the M4 despite the much higher strain. This is - again - when the competition was still struggling with "the bolt, the carrier, the extractor," and just plain getting a gun to fire consistently and effectively using all the other exotic ammo and designs.
>If this is true that would make the proposed reduced power training loads pointless. I'm really skeptical of this claim.
I don't care if you're "skeptical," some of these quotes would be felonious if they were made inaccurately due to the nature of the contract and no one at Sig was ever taken to court. US military manufacturers are under immense legal pressure to understate, which is why Sig being so loud about massive successes prior to NGSW's completion was a big deal. Yet people still thought the other companies were in competition when they had no similar claims to share -at all- for essentially 2 whole years.
"The barrel life is 12,000 rounds" at full pressure doesn't mean it's not a good idea to have lower powered rounds in general for a huge range of reasons, like all of the other past guns and caliber types the US has fielded.
Eat shit.
amazing projection, singh
I mean it wouldn't be the first time someone with the last name "Cohen" lied.
I still find it hard to believe and will have to wait and see actually test results for myself. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they're using slow fire numbers for the spear.
the US prosecutes 400 or so people yearly for much smaller transgressions
>I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they're using slow fire numbers for the spear.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were a dumb cunt who doesn't know how any of this works
"using slow fire numbers" for a military acquisition project would get Sig dissolved as a company, or at least fined millions, as other companies have (see Operation Illwind)
I am looping back to my initial position: none of you retards are typing anything of substance or in any way sharing your "thoughts" in good faith, it is just
>BARREL LIFE BARREL LIFE
despite all evidence to the contrary.
Sorry, we don't live in your local Kmart dollar bin, with modern machining you can have a gun with 3000 FPS and shoot it more than twice before it explodes.
barrel life
>all evidence to the contrary.
where is this evidence? are you eating up cohen's stated number that m4 is only good up to 6k rounds?
>are you eating up cohen's stated number that m4 is only good up to 6k rounds?
Yeah you stupid cunt that's literally what the official barrel life standard for the M4 is. That doesn't mean every or any barrel detonates at 6k rounds.
Do you think the NGSW-R test model's barrel spontaneously combusted at 12,000, just cracked in half? They tested at least a few dozen and found what the lowest round life for a mm or so of gouging with a high tolerance was, and it's twice as high as the M4.
Public statements of fact, i.e. why Sig won and [your shit company here] lost, are legally binding in this case. You are not privy to anything beyond that for good reason, you can barely even read and comprehend what IS made public.
Don't talk about things you don't understand.
chf ar-15 barrels shoot sub-moa for 20+k rounds
I don't care. "chf ar-15 barrels" "shoot" "sub-moa" for as many rounds as they please, that isn't what Cohen or the US DOD are describing when they say how many rounds a barrel lasts. It's an infinitely higher standard than whatever stupid asstarded shit you're doing at your local range.
What is with dudes moving goal posts man? Talking about some other barrel instead of the one that's already talked about and is being used as an example of.
It's autisc meandering to avoid admitting that
>muh FPS muh barrel life
was always Fudd shit for noguns to cry about, because they lubbed GD's 3D model offering soo much, and they weren't going to be disturbed with any of the things actually happening in NGSW's development.
>real guns, real ammo, real test fire
>3d model offering
>tested to work with multiple other rifles with a simple barrel change with zero complaints
>3d model offering
what the fuck are you even talking about? 3d models? Lay off the fucking LSD for once
retard
You type like you're the reason the gene pool needs lifeguards
that doesn't quite make sense but thanks for the (you)
so basically you want me to take cohen's words and interpret it as "it's more than good enough"
and you're mad at me for not falling for it despite there """all evidence to the contrary"" (there's zero evidence besides his words btw)
and cohen stating 6k m4 barrel life are god's own words but real life ar barrels shooting 20+k is irrelevant anecdote
He's telling you to quit moving goal posts and actually accept reality.
>cohen's words
It's literally a press release and he put a minimum at 10,000. If you did any research at all you'd know other press releases specified over 12,000.
>interpret it
I don't expect you to interpret anything, you're retarded. The number beat the DOD's asked-for number. That's it. None of the other companies EVER claimed to do so in any concrete way. Why?
>there's zero evidence besides his words btw
Go get clearance you jobless gay.
>6k m4 barrel life are god's own words
M4 barrels are literally rated for 6,000 rounds and have been since they went to heavy barrels (it was way lower before). You don't know what "barrel life" means per DOD/engineering tolerances and you don't care because you are assmad. That's fine, but it won't make you any less gay.
Name the garden gnome and it recoils in terror
He's probably going to start posting sigger threads in a little bit since that's how these types of convos usually end.
's zero evidence besides his words btw
>Go get clearance you jobless gay.
>hey bro I know that I have literally no evidence short of trusting the word of an actual literal ethnic garden gnome so I'm just going to tell you to get security clearance
Why do you have such a hard time understanding that saying "well our new rifle firing a piss hot cartridge has twice as much barrel life as one firing a smaller, much less hor round" is something that absolutely needs evidence
MilSpec AR barrels are absolute dog shit.
They use barrel forging techniques that were outdated over 50 years ago.
Look at the Marines' HK416s that have barrels that 'last forever' because they're made like firearms components in the 2010s rather than the 1920s.
There is nothing surprising about modern barrels made with modern manufacturing techniques out-competing atavistic components made to a spec that is caveman-tier.
M4 is buttoned barrel (because buttoned is more accurate!(.
HK416 is cold forged barrel.
Yeah cold forged barrels have at least double service life.
bububububububububu a basedboi on twitter who also browses the chans sad sig bad so that means I have to have that opinion too bro!!!!!!!
>We started at meeting the Army threshold for NGSW of 5,000 rounds and now we’re getting in excess of 10,000 rounds thanks to metallurgy and proprietary coatings.
If that same technology were applied to M4 barrels the barrel life would exceed Sig's limit of 12,000 rounds handily. Because it fires stock 5.56 not Bubba's pissing hot factory loads.
>with modern machining you can have a gun with 3000 FPS and shoot it more than twice before it explodes.
With an old bullpup you can have the same or higher velocity using standard NATO spec ammo without the parts erosion or obnoxious size. The lengths conventiomorons have to go to to squeeze out more fps...
The Reduced Power rounds are there because most scenarios don't call for trying to bust Lvl4 plates at >100 yards.
They're the CQC cartridges.
That’s not entirely true. The two-piece high pressure ammo is expensive and the secret armor piercing tungsten ammunition of which the army is manufacturing the projectiles is even more expensive. Probably why they would be training with single piece brass ball ammo as consumer prices for .277 ball is around $30 for a box of 20.
It’s worth noting that polymer-cased .308 TV ammo is $70-80 per box of 20. I have seen it as high as $90, and that is .308 not 6.8. Very interesting considering the main marketable trait of this ammunition was affordability and simplicity in manufacturing. I can’t imagine what the caseless ammo would cost. And what unit cost on the rifle and MG would’ve been.
>It’s worth noting that polymer-cased .308 TV ammo is $70-80 per box of 20. I have seen it as high as $90, and that is .308 not 6.8. Very interesting considering the main marketable trait of this ammunition was affordability and simplicity in manufacturing.
This isn't a fair comparison anon. Like anything new you can only approach the fundamentals price with massive, massive mass production. Polymer cased (and telescoped too) is fundamentally much cheaper and easier than brass if you approach the cost of Bill of Materials. But the only way that would happen is if the military had selected it and they'd started producing tens of millions of rounds (and other manufacturers did so too and it got popular with civilians).
Like come on you know this and are familiar with it because normal ammo is identical. Why is 9mm massively cheaper than .32ACP? It's not because it uses less metal. Why us 308 cheaper than .22-250, or .243 for that matter. Again, it's not like 308 are smaller bullets with less material in them. It's all down to mass production. Only when stuff gets produced in equivalently humongous quantities does the price really start to get dictated by BOM.
barrel life
where the fuck are you getting 7.74 lb for an m4
Hope they give you a 15 cent raise at sig for this.
>It fulfilled the requirements better than the competitors
Not really, and the requirements were retarded anyways.
>and was much more realistic when it came to getting the ammo supply chain up and running
The other two competitors used polymer ammo, which isn't hard to make and is much easier to scale. TV states this on their site
>80% reduction in manufacturing footprint compared to brass
https://www.tvammo.com/innovation/manufacturing
Where as sig has to add steps to an already large and intensive process, both Textron and TV would actually shrink those huge production lines.
>You also have to appreciate what sig did, better performance than a .308 out of a 20 inch barrel, with only a 13 inch barrel, without the gun blowing itself up
Cramming a shitload of powder into a gun and beefing up the parts is not impressive.
>A lot of people who say the spear weighs a lot more don't count the M4 as having a suppressor, while the spear always has one
Because the M4 doesn't need a suppressor because it isn't firing an >85k psi cartridge that will evaporate your eardrums.
The NGSW program is like the MPF program, army writes dogshit requirements and gets dogshit products that satisfy those requirements in return.
Congress need to cut army funding and divert to navy/airforce so the army doesn't keep trying to justify its existence by wasting money,
>bullpup fanboy mad the worst pile of dogshit that they called a LMG and a Rifle didn't win
Whenever I read "meh" I know I'm about to read something typed out by an extremely feminine man who can't bench press his own body weight. Please have a nice day you cum guzzling moron.
>oh geez a whopping 1lb difference
Still heavier than a M4. Ounces are pounds, pounds are pain. Talk about optimized, why not carry 30mm autocannons at that point, you're not a pussy are you?
no it’s two pounds heavier, he’s being disingenuous
In order of innovation with room to expand? Yeah textron hands down. Bu that is a pretty large leap and it might be too much. I would have gone with GD simply because their ammo was the best compromise out of all of them. Effectively backwards compatible with everything in 7.62 and easily adjustable for other cartridges. I have no issue with bullpups but would have been fine tossing the weapons for a new contest based on the TV 6.8 ammo. Never would have chosen ~~*SIG*~~ from the issues with their optic submission the entirety of the 320, and the just bare minimum pipe bomb that is the XM7. They did basically nothing of value, but the army has wanted SIG to take over domestic production of all our small arms for a decade or so now so it just goes to the siggers automatically
The SIG Spear is bad because.... it just is!!!!!
I have yet to see one convincing argument against the Spear's adoption aside from assmad Glock owners and bullpup pants shitters
SIG has been making guns for people in $250k in gear to shoot people in the face with longer than True Velocity has been a company. Plastic ammunition and caseless ammunition are fucking jokes and the Spear is the only actual gun of the three, the rest are just ideas an Indian engineering intern modeled in CAD which is why they look so fucking ugly.
Why is it that bullpups attract the biggest mouth breathers?
very nice bait sigshitter
based retard!
Does it count to complain that the rear sights of new M18s keep popping off since they forgot to locktight them in? It’s a pain in the ass to get those things back on since you have to take apart the striker to get to the screwholes for the rear sight. That and the slide is either good after 200-300 rounds or it isn’t; by that I mean it breaks in some way or it just works. Recon tore through a bunch of M18s when they initially broke in all their pistols, and from what I’ve seen it either works out of the box or it’s a pile of trash. QC really do be lacking at nuSIG
SIG made millions of P320s and M17/8s and monthly there is a picture of one, maybe two with minor serviceable defects. What exactly does this prove about QC? That it’s not perfect? That is the idea behind quality control.
>Making an excellent gun
>Pleasing PrepHole
>Winning contracts
Choose 2, max
i'll take the cute redhead with the freckles and the weird blue hair chick
Rei is worst choice.
Asuka a bitch.
Misato a queen.
>Misato a queen.
lmao
>queen
>drunk slob who will fuck other men before your body is even cold
LAMO
Ah shit, here we go again
Gun makers & the US military can't fathom not making a AR pattern rifle so bullpups and other good designs make them have a gnomish mental breakdown
>I HATE BULLPUPS I HATE BULLPUPS I HATE BULLPUPS I HATE BULLPUPS I HATE BULLPUPS
gross ass gun(s)
I'm so sorry the superiority of the raging bull has given you such a complex about your lesser firearm. And that feeling will only grow, electronic firing and smart gun bullpups soon!
looks hideous, damn, all the rifles in the trials are eye cancer
I bet it would look good in OD Green
yeah
it looks ugly in a good way
she was a good rifle, just not a good service rifle
I wish they'd gotten out a shorter civilian version in 308 or hell even 6.5. Real bummer that it's all going to waste.
did the civvie version get shitcanned entirely? was supposed to come out last winter or something seems to have vanished off the internet. kinda a shame yeah figured they might have wanted to try recouping some $$$$$ from civvie gun market
whoever is responsible for these shill posts must be promoted at sig. very quick response times.
My friend you should avoid such conspiracy thinking. Sig is one of the greatest firearms companies with a noble history and would not stoop to such things. Their products speak for themselves of great quality as shown by being selected by the USA Armies to replace the obsolete M16 guns. This was done by their great superiority and innovation on all measures to copycat competitors. Someday if you work hard you may be able to own a properly civilized version of the new standard military rifle!
>anyone who disagrees with me is a shill
Guys who are autistic about sig will call anyone and anything a shill. Beware he may screech about siggers and post twitter screencaps from glockfags.
>people designed the weapon using modern technology thus bad
What in the fuck are you talking about? Do you think SIG doesn't use CAD to design shit? They just lock some fucker in a room with paper and pencil and tell him to come out with prints if he wants to eat?
Why are sig shills like this?
it's complete bait don't even try to make sense of it
I mean kel tec does that. Except there is a lot of coke and LSD involved too.
Textron designed one of the ugliest most retarded operating guns ever put to testing and General Dynamics' machine gun submission was the same fuckugly piece of shit bullpup with a longer/heavier barrel.
I would fire each and every person associated with this project at both of these companies.
The early iterations were kinda fugly but the final iterations are sexy
SARS! PLS DO NOT REDEEM!
>posting Reddit videos
This guy didn't tighten the handguard screws to spec.
it's a PrepHole video because i copied it from PrepHole 😉
meanwhile the same cannot be said about the spear
You are literally just making shit up.
It's horrendous design from sig, you can find multiple videos from multiple people having this issue with guns that have never been taken apart.
Some people have carefully reinstalled according to sig spec to ensure that it wasn't just something loose, and it still happens.
expecting sig customer support to face reality? lmao, these people are living in their own make belief world
sig hate is fine and all but what exactly is wrong with this picture? I dont get it, not even supporting sig
Why has mine not had this issue? One of the first ~500 of these guns.
It's because you actually have one and KNOW HOW TO FUCKING USE A GUN AND WORK ON SAID GUN. YOU HAVE A FUNCTIONING FRONTAL CORTEX
why didn't they just adopt the plastic bullets though?
dont they have like 800 billion dollars to fuck with?
who? the army? yeah they have lots of money, and they're giving sig all that money
if the army was tight on money, they'd just adopt true velocity's cartridge and rebarrel every gun in the inventory
>they'd just adopt true velocity's cartridge and rebarrel every gun in the inventory
Anon christ they weren't gonna win. Stop thinking they'd win.
gay, clearly i stated they weren't gonna win. where did i say they were gonna win?
At this point it's safe to assume that this rifle's civilian variant is complete vaporware.
Well, silently cancelled. They were betting on winning the contract so they could have the capital to produce civilian ones but then found out they didn't win.
Why didn't that fat little suppressor survive? It's such a better match for an sbr / pistol than a big long stick design.
yes. i love bullpups so fucking much
>verification not required
>She should have won, bros...
That's not a picture of the TV ammo, that's the sub-par rifle offered together with the TV ammo
She should have won, bros...
>Downward ejecting, fully ambi
Base-
>Unrifled barrel, flechette rounds
Cringe
are they saboted flechette? could put "rifling" into sabot casing
heres your sabot bro
anprim football
smoothbore is based and the future
its only fault is that it wasn't an even larger bore diameter like 9mm which would let it have a shorter barrel and keep its energy
op here, I'm surprised my thread is still up.
Should have put a more conventional suppressor on it instead of that toilet plunger design, but apparently then it would be over the retarded length limit the program had. Of course the "suppressors for everyone" trend is retarded to begin with. Active hearing protection is a thing and doesn't put put add that weight and size to the end of the barrel. Let the special ops types use suppressors as needed versus yet another thing for the average infantryman and everyone else to carry.
Also the lack of a neck on the TV 6.8mm cartridge was stupid. The greenies are going to hate all that plastic pollution everywhere and they actually have a point considering all the damn plastics in our blood.
About the winning SIG design there are way too many holes cut into the handguard. It's just stupid and they should tone that down a bit. 13" barrel is rather short for the requirements they're aiming at which is part of the reason the pressures are so high. But once again that's the retarded overall length requirement where the entire rifle with suppressor attached couldn't be any longer than a standard M4 carbine.
Also we're done playing in the desert for the foreseeable future turn the desert tan/coyote or whatever the fuck that color is to olive drab or something more suitable for temperate climates.
I could run this damn program better than the Army has been.
Also still need an improved 5.56mm or similar lightweight caliber carbine to replace the M4s that the XM7 won't replace. An updated M4 could do it probably.
idk probably got enough 5.56 stashed to last til the next next gen weapons
But potato can is literally best suppressor out there.
(Though it has larger back pressure than flow through cans, but if their rifle has ni issues with back pressure why not?)
I know your kind love potatoes O'Malley but I very much doubt it's that great, the design the SIG rifle used seemed rated a lot higher.
Sig can is much heavier and longer but it is flow through with no back pressure.
Textron should've won only because cased telescoping rounds are superior.
First Textron round is pseudo telescopic.
Second it was worst round ever designed. There is no reason to design round like that unless you go caseless. If you want plastic round just make it from plastic like TV did.
Basedboys only slob over Textron because it's "le futuristic like in my comic books". This is FACT.
>pseudo telescopic.
Are you a retard that only believes that caseless is telescopic?
>There's no reason to design a round like that unless you go caseless
Yes there is. More propellant than traditional cartridges while having one of the drawbacks of caseless, such as having no case to act as a heat sink. Cased telescopic is objectively superior to caseless and traditional rounds.
>More propellant than traditional cartridges
Literally wrong. And on top of no advantages Textron round bring on table problems of long freebore and moving chamber misalignments.
Again making round telescoped (and Textron is pseudo telescoped there is no pwoeder ahead of the dring part of the bullet, G11 was telescoped Textron is not) is to use caseless, because you can't extract careless usual way. Textron started as caseless, it failed and they got legacy from that start, snd there is new good reason to use this design.
>And on top of no advantages
Weight reduction and volume reduction don't matter? News to everyone who has had to lug an ammo can. Dispersion was also quite minimal in testing for the 5.56mm at least.
LSAT was quite successful and Textron's NGSW entry was built upon that. Even if it wasn't mature enough now the ammunition is worth continued development work.
he's right
cased telescoped ammunitions get their extra propellant from having more case space around the bullet
textron's offering has none of that, it's completely empty
it offers no advantage compared to an exposed bullet design, and has the disadvantage of the bullet not seating in the bore
33%+ weight reduction. It's still cased telescoped because that's what they're calling it and that's what everyone else is calling it.
33%+ compared to conventional or to TV?
Let's not forget Textron also uses compressed propellent with about 50% more load density.
Says one of the neckless basedboys slobbering over the similarly neckless TV round? If you're going plastic might as well the way and go the Textron route.
The bullpup should have won because I like how it looks the most.
If the Congress/Army brass weren't retarded, then it wouldn't have been an all-or-nothing package deal.
The MG is always more important than the infantry rifle. They chose the best MG for a compromise on the rifle.
Too ugly
farewell thread anons thanks for keeping my shit thread alive this long. best wishes to all you fags
Good bye, have a beautiful time
It was the best of the 3 options, but the program goals were deeply flawed and based on bad assumptions. It would have been better to just cancel the whole thing and adjust tactics to incorporate smart weapons at the squad or fireteam level.
i think the goals were ambitious but completely correct in intent. every retard grunt should be a DMR+ with smart gear and thus need big range.
>every retard grunt should be a DMR+ with smart gear and thus need big range.
An 18yo kid that barely qualified to 500m on a static range is not going to hit shit at 800+ under combat stress. Multiple studies have shown that under combat stress accuracy drops off a cliff after just 100m, and is effectively zero at the ranges this rifle is expected to OVERMATCH at. Increasing the weight does not help the boot. Increasing the chamber pressure erodes the rifling more quickly, effectively hurting the boot. Increasing the recoil reduces the accuracy of followup shots, this also hurts the boot. Reducing magazine capacity and increasing ammo weight reduces the amount of ammo the boot can carry on patrol, hurting the boot. The US Army brassholes have long wanted to bring back the M14. This is just how they justified it in the 21st century.
The scope is good. Considering that laser range finders have been available commercially for so long I can scarcely remember a time when they weren't, a rangefinder scope is long overdue.
Also, this:
>Sub-Factor 1 - User Acceptance
is absolute bullshit. The guys given the bullpup rifle whined and moaned like morones because it wasn't something they were accustomed to. The bullpup layout is objectively better, this is a scientifically proven fact based on dynamics (physics).
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0018720813509107?icid=int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.3
You use the equipment you're issued or you can scrub latrines until you eas.
The only reason we aren't all using bullpups is because of bitch fudds that insist small arms peaked with the M14 and 1911.
>The scope is good. Considering that laser range finders have been available commercially for so long I can scarcely remember a time when they weren't, a rangefinder scope is long overdue.
If what you say about the average infantryman is correct (which it is) why do those average infantrymen need some 1-8x LPVO? A 1/4x optic that weighs less would do fine.
Squad designated marksmen who presumably can shoot pretty good can get the fancy LPVO.
they need to hit shit at 800+m before combat begins, obviously. nobody's going to be out-ranging these retards.
>increasing weight
doesn't matter, they're not humping it
>erodes rifling
boo hoo, they don't even shoot much and the military has infinity dollars.
>followup shots
nobody's magdumping at 800+m
>hurts the boot
hahahahahahahahaha