Refusal to Innovate?

Why has the roller-delayed system of the MP5 never been touched on?

It just seems like the only people who attempt it are meme companies like Grand Power. The MP5 is still a powerhouse in the PDW category more than half a century after its development.

So why are we not seeing more experimentation with the mechanism that made it so successful? A modern MP5 with a trigger that doesn't suck wiener would sell like hotcakes.

Or is it just that we're moving away from expensive guns and towards "put serviceable firearms in the hands of disposable meat for cheap as possible" philosophy of armed forces?

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    because it really isn't required. buffered blowback (ala the GHM9/APC9) works almost as well but is cheaper to produce.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Is that really true though, the buffered recoil on the B&Ts is interesting and the pricing on the GHMs make them pretty appealing but I hear really mixed things about the recoil impulse ranging from it's almost as good as the MP5 to it's barely noticeable improvement over a normal blowback

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        MP5 recoil is soft because it’s heavy as frick in addition to being roller delayed, not solely because it’s roller delayed
        t. MP5 owner

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          I mean maybe it's heavy for the category by a little bit but I really don't think it's heavy overall or THAT much heavier than the competition. I own a stribog and ap5 and didn't really notice a difference personally. I don't have both in front of me right now so I decided to Google it and
          >GHM9: 5.5lbs
          >CZ scorpion: 5lbs
          >MP5: 5.6lbs
          Per manufacturer websites. Blowback guns got heavy AF bolts, the scorpion bolts probably like 2lbs but that's a wag.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Meant to say I own a scorpion and ap5(you can tell my income level), not an AM person

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      that's moronic. considering the turkish clones can be had for <$1k.
      b&t doesnt even come close.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Not a single LE/Mil customer outside of the third world buys Turkish MP5s. That’s who B&T caters to.
        Also, if you’ve ever shot an APC9, you’d realize the recoil is 90% as good as an MP5, but in a gun with modern controls and better accessories.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          they don't buy turkish guns for political reasons
          but that doesn't matter, what really matters is that people want to kit it out for night use and even though you can get space for a laser up there, the charging lever operation and the lam can't exist together

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            They don’t buy Turkish guns because they’re dogshit. If they were quality weapons you’d see nations that actually matter using them.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Also, if you’ve ever shot an APC9, you’d realize the recoil is 90% as good as an MP5, but in a gun with modern controls and better accessories.
          Still fails because it's still not a mp5

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This, plus at the end of the day it's a 9mm cartridge. Any type of recoil mitigation ends up being good enough and anything outside of rollers or recoil buffer would be considered an overengineered experiment. Look at the vector with a straight face and try to say it's not silly for a round that can be comfortably fired with one hand from a compact handgun (know we're not talking about pistols here but bringing it up to prove a point). Also I imagine it's market driven, so the guns available now plus ar9 platforms being so popular you can really find whatever you want in a shooting experience. I get what you're saying, and yeah I'd love awesome fun new guns but also understand why we don't see companies coming up with wacky fun new wind powered recoil systems or something. If it ain't broke don't fix it approach.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        for me, its Super V.
        The fact they stopped releasing their gen 1 stocks to give us a shitty polymer triangle, FRICK KRISS

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Is that really true though, the buffered recoil on the B&Ts is interesting and the pricing on the GHMs make them pretty appealing but I hear really mixed things about the recoil impulse ranging from it's almost as good as the MP5 to it's barely noticeable improvement over a normal blowback

      It's barely better than straight blowback which is not great. Real delayed blowback is miles better, so much of the hype over b&t's is people justifying the ridiculous price they paid for an up jumped sten gun

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Maybe locking system is difficult to machine and have difficulties with some types of ammunition?

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    stamping operations have ludicrously high startup costs, operating costs, time and precision labor for toolmakers and tooling maintenance. when a company can make straight blowback tube guns with extruded handguards and MIMed parts for a fraction of the cost.

    LE and military are long moved away from PCC/subguns to small carbines. the market for locked breech or delayed lock PCCs in the civilian target is so minuscule compared to people who just want cheap blowback 9mm with glock mags to go blasting.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      > stamping operations have ludicrously high startup costs, operating costs
      That’s not really true, there’s a dude in Texas who makes uzi receivers who sells em for 70 dollars each and he made all the tooling himself
      It would cost way more than that to mill out blocks of aluminum or steel than 70 dollars

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Gotta link? asking for a friend... I'm the friend

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Sure here
          https://youtube.com/@globalmachinetoolllc5403?si=OdhQ8vx0fx03b1ef
          And here are the receivers he makes
          He also makes top covers and other stamped gun parts
          https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/UZI-RECEIVER-REPAIR-SECTION-p4277.htm

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Robert RTG ships from Wyoming, so where is the Texas guy?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Robert RTG sells his receivers, same way Robert RTG also sold the bending jig and forming mandrel that marbleduck made
              These gun sites have deals going with dudes in America, Robert RTG doesn’t make anything, they sell things other people make and distribute through RTG

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        cool, now have him make 40,000+ units per year with zero QC issues.
        you fricking moron.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      That's moronic. You could easily do roller delayed on milled or extruded aluminum with a steel insert. You don't build a gun in 2024 like it's 1950. You adapt design and materials.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Progressive die stamps do, but once you have the tooling already in place it makes zero sense to ever change it.
      Even injection molded receivers aren’t going to replace existing tooling, and those can be really cheap.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Have people really forgotten the Calico?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I imagine there's plenty OP never has or will know

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      What happened to it btw? You can still access their website and apparently they sell? What's going on

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        they still exist. you can still buy them. a buddy has one and i've seen them at gun shows. they're cool guns

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >I tried to buy the .22 one juuuust before Covid
        >ordered the rifle, a spare mag, bipod, and scope mount totaling about $800
        >mail them a check and my FFL's info because they don't take cards
        >wait a few weeks, nothing
        >wait a month, nothing
        >email them multiple times
        >nothing
        >email them some more
        >got an email from their sales lady about 4 months later saying they had a backlog and were waiting on front sights and never heard back from them again
        >they never cashed my check, but they never sent my rifle either
        >I say frick it and buy a 10/22 with a folding stock and binary trigger that now one of my favorite guns

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I remember it every time I play Code Veronica

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        S or rey about that babe

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      never

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    There are several factors to it: more parts, more machining, higher costs.
    Rifles settled for gas systems.
    SMGs have become marginal. The MP5 dominates its niche.

    A merely technical reason is that roller delayed blowback does not integrate well with polymer frames of modern firearms because the rollers put lateral forces on the receiver that polymer wouldn't withstand, and you should integrate a steel part into it.
    So another extra part, and extra weight that isn't bolt mass.
    Polymer frames and straight blowback offers the same overall weight, because yes you have a heavier bolt but the frame is much lighter. And it costs way less, and if it's well designed it can shoot as well with not much recoil impulse.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      You’re probably an akgay, they always use this argument to justify why aks cost so much when the entire argument is completely false, stamping is easy and cheap

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Its not at all false, the soviet union took a decade to figure out how to reliably stamp AKs, and that was with the best minds of half the planet and input from the German engineers behind the MP44; during which time they were forced to mill their AK receivers at great cost. Stamping is easy and cheap, when you're set up for it, but the cost and difficulty of setting up for it cannot be downplayed. The same applies to H&Ks, with the distinction that we have had several companies producing G3s over the years because they bought factory jigs from countries that had previously manufactured them, meaning Springfield (Greek tooling), PTR (Portuguese tooling) and Century (Spanish tooling) avoided the front-end costs of manufacturing. This has not happened afaik with AKs, American-made AKs are entirely reverse engineered and this results in some variation to causes fitment and reliability issues. You can cry about it if you like, but that's the facts.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          > Stamping is easy and cheap, when you're set up for it
          I guess this random ass dude in Texas cracked the code on stamping bro, he’s able to make entire stamped receivers with custom tooling at his house and sell them for 70 bucks while still making a profit

          Sure here
          https://youtube.com/@globalmachinetoolllc5403?si=OdhQ8vx0fx03b1ef
          And here are the receivers he makes
          He also makes top covers and other stamped gun parts
          https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/UZI-RECEIVER-REPAIR-SECTION-p4277.htm

          > stamping operations have ludicrously high startup costs, operating costs
          That’s not really true, there’s a dude in Texas who makes uzi receivers who sells em for 70 dollars each and he made all the tooling himself
          It would cost way more than that to mill out blocks of aluminum or steel than 70 dollars

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >The MP5 is still a powerhouse in the PDW category
    Lol no
    10" carbines are preferred for general portability and MP7s are better at ultracompactness

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Except mp7s are fricking gigantic

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >MP5 is still a powerhouse in the PDW category
    It's not.
    The SBR, the MP7, and B&T's TMP remix replaced it a long time ago.
    Also it's stamped. Before CNC machines stamping was the cheaper form of mass production. It no longer is. It's also bad for long-term quality and reliability.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Gun companies are dumb and don't realize a quality modern PCC with a delayed action that actually reliably feeds HPs would be a massive hit.

      >Complaining about long term durability/reliability
      >MP5s
      What? They're literally one of the most durable and long term reliable guns ever made. Name another firearm within the same niche that has a proven life expectancy of up to 500k rounds if you properly replace small parts. Practically anything else would beat itself to death or require major component replacements in a fraction of that time

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >require major component replacements in a fraction of that time
        Like the rollers in an MP5?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Rollers aren't major components moron, they're easily replaced wear parts

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Why fix perfection? The only thing they can really improve on is the ergonomics.

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Why has the roller-delayed system of the MP5 never been touched on?
    It has, modern roller-delayed guns like the SP9A3 have more efficient designs. The MPX is also just as soft shooting despite not being roller-delayed based.
    >It just seems like the only people who attempt it are meme companies like Grand Power.
    Define "meme company" please. Also, post guns.
    >A modern MP5 with a trigger that doesn't suck wiener would sell like hotcakes.
    You can literally use AR trigger in the SP9A3 lower.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Actual armies have cottoned onto the fact that you may as well hand out short-barrel carbines in 5.56 or similar instead of SMGs becuase those have become compact and lightweight enough to usurp that niche with their increased firepower.

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    You can download the MP5's TDP for free online and companies still can't make them correctly, kek.

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Mexico and Thailand both looked into mass producing bullpup G3 variants. The trade off in cost and reliability versus pure real world performance didn't make it so they went with 5.56 rifles instead.

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >only 30 rounds
    Shiggy

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      that's a good orange cat.
      pet that orange cat for me.

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    it's a lot of extra machining for a gun that just fires 9mm..

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Because the AR exists and most LEs and governments phased out the SMGs for ARs.

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I think it's mostly that pistol caliber SMGs are sort of an evolutionary dead end. Military doesn't want it due to the prevalence of armor with most opponents. They're useful to small number of niche police units (SWAT) but the problem it those units will typically prefer carbines anyway so they can go up against light body armor easily available to civilians. This means that the market is highly price competitive due to relatively low demand, and the ones that will lead the market will be those that can produce the numbers demanded highly efficiently, meaning low/no R&D, existing machining lines, off the shelf components, etc. H&K was in a good position to do all of this, they have a market leading design, mature and efficient product pipelines, great market perception, exchangeable standardized parts (rollers, trigger pack components, pins, stock components, etc), and so on.

    Like any product, it's far easier to continue a product line than it is to break into a market; H&K got in good in the SMG game back in the 70s and established themselves and continue to hold the market because it's tough (and expensive) for newcomers to break into and cheap for H&K to maintain.

    The few SMGs that have seen significant success appeals to the market forces I cited above, P90 got military and police interest by being able to contend with moderate armor in CQB. While the Vector is a cool idea, it has failed to grab a strong foothold because it does not appeal to these groups and the civilian semi-auto version loses the main appeal of the gun.

    I was gonna say that if someone came out with a constant recoil system SMG with a low entry cost that it could be interesting, but upon reconsideration the lack of AP would again disinterest Mil/Police interest and kill it just like the vector. Maybe a constant recoil bullpup in .223 or similar could be a success for Mil/LEO for the combination of AP, recoil, and size interests for police and rear echelon troops.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      pistol caliber carbines aren't submachine guns. you're right on all fronts but the design considerations for a smg lead to the market being full of guns like the stribog or the skorpion or straight blowback conversions for delayed action firearms.

      i think pistol carbines are cool because pistol rounds are less powerful and you can make the guns lighter and more compact. you can use the same ammo you use with your pistol in a gun that's capable of shooting out to 50 yards, easy enough a kid could shoot it, and small and light enough to stick in a backpack.

      that isn't an evolutionary dead end, that's a viable market segment that gets new products on a regular basis. but it has nothing to do with the military or law enforcement segment, and a large portion of the firearms industry are cop bootlickers who love to sniff their own farts

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        This. A lot of yurocompanies don't want to sell to the American civilian market as well since they're nogunz. If only we'd repeal the NFA we could more efficiently just buy their guns as is instead of waiting for a "semi auto" civilian variant.

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >with a trigger that doesn't suck wiener
    just out of curiosity, what is your trigger finger like?
    i'm imaging a weak finger/hand that can't leverage enough force or a fat hamplanet hand

    im not saying the mp5 trigger is great or bad, i just want to know what the hands of people who complain about triggers look like

  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    How is Grand Power a meme company

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Does HK still produce SP5 for civillians?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      ye

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        why

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Because there's a sucker born every minute.

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Because roller delay is a lot of hassle
    >Because straight blowback is easy and foolproof
    >Because straight blowback is less parts
    >Because straight blowback is less maintenance
    >Because straight blowback is good enough
    >Because pistol caliber long guns aren't taken seriously by MIL/LE
    >Because 300BO is a thing

    I know what you're thinking
    >300BO is $$$

    But guess who doesn't care about spending your tax dollars on paying extra for ammo?

    By all means though, a 9mm PDW is still a great thing at putting down soft targets, and I think is the best weapon for HD. I have a fAkeP5 myself that I SBR'd cause I watched Die Hard as a kid (still do, duh). It's probably my favorite gun to shoot, and I trust it for HD too.

    Ian has a good video on the two, obvious reasons of manual of arms and lack of LRBHO aside, the ballistics of 300BO is just way better.

    Money being no object if you needed either a 9mm or 300BO SBR for serious business you'd be a fool to pick the former.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I'm with this silly nogger. Mp5 is by far the best gun to shoot in my collection, it just feels so dead on with a red dot and flows so nicely. If I could only own 2 guns, it'd be mp5 and scar all the way baby

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      the problem is that money is an object just like the things that we're comparing. when you look at something that has an objective set of criteria you can compare on cost then it begs the question why you're procuring a weapon system that is a compromise between two weapon systems that is twice as expensive to run as each of those individually

      you can buy a 9mm bullet and a .223 bullet for the cost of a single .300 blackout bullet

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Sucks that it's expensive, but it's better. In any case, MIL/LE will still take a 5.56 PDW over 9mm anyway. As mentioned, 9mm PDWs only fell out of favor because it's not effective against armor, otherwise it was shown to be favorable, notably the MP5.

        OP should be asking about delayed 9mm systems, not specifically roller. If anything, there's been more options than ever, and between the Maxim Defense RDB buffer and CMMG's radial delay you can customize an AR9 however you fancy. If not the Sig MPX is gas delayed, there's Stribog 3 as mentioned and a few more out there.

        Fact is those are your options, then there's B&T, straight blowback but with a comfy buffer. If none of those solutions satisfy you then you aren't looking at this from any practical standpoint and you should just admit you want an MP5 and get it.

  21. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The MP5 is just as useless as my P90, but people like us will buy the gun anyways because we're natural born suckers married to the aesthetic.

  22. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Probably because subguns are a complete dead end and roller lock sucks dick for real cartridges.

  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Pcc makes sense in a 22lr way. Charging 2k and 50-100$ mags might as well go 300

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >A modern MP5 with a trigger that doesn't suck wiener would sell like hotcakes.
    Zenith literally just announced that at Shit Show back in January. It's a new series of roller-delayed guns that use AR-15 ergos, triggers, etc.

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2024/01/27/shot-2024-zenith-firearms-displays-zf-56-roller-delayed-5-56/

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      If ptr does 9” barrel and aftermarket clones the g39 buttstock and handguard thats a deal. Til then it sits on shelves. 2500 is crazy needs to come with all that

  25. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Because it's expensive, useless, and destroys the reciver with use.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >destroys the reciver with use.
      No it doesn't

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >A modern MP5 with a trigger that doesn't suck wiener would sell like hotcakes
        There is the RDB buffer spring, that literally puts a roller delay in the buffer spring. Drop it in any AR9 with a carbine length tube.

        Or there's someone that makes trigger packs for the MP5 platform that take AR FCG, grips and safeties.

        The glaring issue leftover would be no LRBHO on the MP5 though. Hence going full circle back to the RDB or the radial delayed blowback BCG and barrel extension (and by extension (haha) the barrel), which I hear is near MP5 levels of good with suppression if paird with a JP Enterprises buffer spring... which, once again, is kind of what the RDB is.

        Anyway.

        >No it doesn't
        To be fair, Battlefield Vegas has some very lengthy and very informative posts on various guns, notably the MP5. They retire them at 5,000 rounds because the trunnion gets beat too far forward to be serviceable and the cost to rebuild is a wash.

        On the flip-side, NASA is known to have an MP5 that reported 571,600 rounds in six years with only small parts replacement (springs, pins, rollers). It was retired because it needed a new barrel.

        But BFV is a guy with a lot of clout, no reason to BS, and freely offering this information and answering questions. Not to mention he's had many more MP5s from numerous manufacturers, including H&K, with millions upon millions of combined rounds over the years.

        Granted, with him it's likely 90%+ full auto and heat is the enemy of all metal. But for it to be a 100x difference? I don't buy that. NASA did put an average of 261 rounds through it a day, but I don't know what their training regimen was.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >granted, they way he uses his guns destroys them quickly
          Yeah, it kind of makes his numbers seem less useful

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          You should be posting the article.
          >https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/My-experiences-with-high-round-count-HK-s-and-HK-clones/9-476802/

          TLDR:
          Weak recoil spring will kill a reciever within 5k rounds (rollers not getting changed will too but will cause malfunctions before you get to that point)
          Locking piece, rollers, extractor, extractor spring and recoil spring are common wear items that must be replaced regularly.
          Roller dimples in the back of the reciever in the stock recesses are indicative of weak recoil spring - change it and rollers immediately

          Later in the thread they talk about the MAD and RCM bolt heads which have a plunger/m16 style extractor - which greatly reduce the swap interval of the extractor spring and extractor itself

          Barrel Swaps are doable, Trunnion swap rebuilds aren't worth the cost/labor vs a new gun
          Trunnion life is over 400k rounds

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Where do you get "strong" recoil springs from?

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Weak means worn.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Got it, I'm always confused about why people don't say precisely what they mean and use a potentially confusing euphemism. Is it just being stupid?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Because weak also can mean its out of spec/under spec-like a mp5 clone turkshit with a "new" recoil spring yet it's dimpling the reciever at 2k rounds

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                If you bothered to read that shit you'd see the claim is across the board from hk to hgay

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              You can't handle my recoil springs, anon. Seek out a seller of weaker springs.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Spring seller *pitiful wimper* please

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            fascinating read, anon. I mgiht need to pull the trigger on extractor springs and recoil springs, soon.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >They retire them at 5,000 rounds because the trunnion gets beat too far forward to be serviceable and the cost to rebuild is a wash.
          the location of the trunnion in the receiver is irrelevant, head space and bolt gap are entirely products of bolt face/rollers/barrel/trunnion interaction and have nothing to do with the receiver, you could fire an MP5 with literally no receiver at all, just the trunnion and bolt and barrel and it would function correctly other than the bolt not coming back into battery and instead flying off into space
          t. built multiple MP5 parts kits and custom builds

  26. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I just don't believe that they're throwing guns in the trash after fewer than 200 magazines (and then buying new ones of the same type to replace them). Somebody forgot a zero in the round count.

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