redpill me on this

why have sabot rifle rounds never caught on? they seem litty no cap

  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Oldschool small arms sabots had terrible accuracy and nobody has mass-produced accurate modern versions like CBJtech's.

    But since acceleration is proportional to bore diameter a bullpuped saboted rifle could max out smokeless powder velocities - probably 6200-6500 fps.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous
    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The CBJs sounded very interesting, a saboted 6.5 that could be fired from a 9mm sounds like an easy and effective upgrade. Whatever happened to it anyways

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What's the point?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They're different than normal rounds so they must be better. Plus they look really cool in my video games and comic book art. Those red tips must mean it's better right?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      AP

      Your .500 S&W can fire everything from 275 grains to 700 grains and stabilize them just fine. Now if your .500 S&W had a custom barrel that would only stabilize 75 grain subcaliber rounds and would keyhole all off the shelf .500 mag ammo then we'd be on the same page.

      [...]
      What does current testing have to do with anything? For something to have "caught on", like OP asked, it must have been successful years ago.

      the civilian market follows military procurement, I was just pointing out that armor piercing is not "of zero importance" for a large portion of the market

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >I was just pointing out that armor piercing is not "of zero importance" for a large portion of the market
        Yes, but only very recently. That demand hasn't existed long enough to drive products like this to market. We live in a world where everybody knows about "body armor" from video games and where we can buy inexpensive level 4 rated plates. But even as recently as 5 years ago the idea of a "rifle rated" plate was pretty much fiction unless you had megabucks or were part of some 3-letter-agency. Most threats simply didn't wear armor, or if they were one of the small % which did it was something which any standard rifle round would zip right through without the need for specialized rounds like sabots. The idea that one might have a legitimate need to engage targets wearing rifle-rated armor is an idea that until very recently was only held by schizos.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          fair point I get what you mean

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >But even as recently as 5 years ago the idea of a "rifle rated" plate was pretty much fiction
          i bought a set of level 4 plates 7 years ago for $500.
          were you underage 5 years ago or something? because you definitely weren't into guns back then if you think nobody was buying rifle plates.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Clearly it wasn't literally "nobody" buying them but it was a very very small % of the population. Armor was hardly even discussed at the time unless you were only hanging out on schizo or gamer forums like PrepHole. Very few people wanted to drop $500 on larp gear back then, and criminals using it was virtually unheard of.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      smaller bullet

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That red thing on the end.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Nice

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Higher velocities, more importantly perhaps it allows for flexibility with calibres. Say your saboted bullet is 10x50mm striaght walled. You could fire a lighter propellant load with a saboted 5.5mm bullet as your standard round, a high BC and higher pressure 6.5mm bullet for longer ranges. For even longer ranges beyond DMR work you might use a high pressure steel case with a .338 bullet or something and if you’re in a city and the enemy is gonna be within 50 feet half the time you can fire a full bore 10 mm bullet with similar energy to a .450 bushmaster. All of this being possible without even having to change barrels, just changing magazines.

      Also flechettes which have theoretical potential.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I can tell by your first sentence you're too fucking retarded to have an opinion.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I mean it’s all theoretical anyway. Nobody has designed a good small calibre saboted round, but beyond that everything I stated is theoretically possible.

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There really wasn't/isn't a point to it. They're not any better than standard bullets for anything except armor penetration, and that was pretty much of zero importance for the civilian market. Understand that rifle-rated armor wasn't really a thing until very very recently.

    Accuracy was a consistent problem. Remington had their Accellerator ammo years ago, people hated it because it made their hunting rifle shoot 4 MOA instead of sub-moa. The SLAP project worked OK for .50 cal but when they tried to do it in .30 cal the projos exited the sides of the barrel. Perhaps modern plastics can make better sabots than the ones they were using back then, but I suspect a major part of the problem is twist rates. The twist rate for a standard bullet would likely be way off for one so much lighter, and who the fuck wants a gun that can only shoot specialty meme ammo?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      good points but
      > the most recent army trial was 100% about armor penetration

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >who the fuck wants a gun that can only shoot specialty meme ammo?
      Me
      >t. 500 Magnum owner

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Your .500 S&W can fire everything from 275 grains to 700 grains and stabilize them just fine. Now if your .500 S&W had a custom barrel that would only stabilize 75 grain subcaliber rounds and would keyhole all off the shelf .500 mag ammo then we'd be on the same page.

        good points but
        > the most recent army trial was 100% about armor penetration

        What does current testing have to do with anything? For something to have "caught on", like OP asked, it must have been successful years ago.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >but I suspect a major part of the problem is twist rates.

      This is a huge issue for a lot of sabot stuff. Either the twist is the wrong speed to properly stabilize the bullet or the sabot itself spins independently of the actual bullet and you just end up not imparting enough spin into it at all. That is actually an issue with some bullets with the lead core and copper jacket where it would spin up so fast it would rip the jacket free of the core. Making a sabot round isnt as simple as slapping some plastic around a bullet and calling it a day. You have to engineer the bullet and the sabot itself to work with the rifling perfectly or its absolute fucking garbage.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >That is actually an issue with some bullets with the lead core and copper jacket where it would spin up so fast it would rip the jacket free of the core.
        You are not wrong.

        I used to own a rifle chambered in a wildcat caliber which was a .50 BMG necked down to .375. The twist rate was correct for typical .375 projectile weights but I had major problems with the bullets coming apart the moment they left the muzzle. I ended up having custom monometallic bronze bullets made by GS custom, those handled the spin just fine. Some of the "bonded core" type hunting bullets worked as well but those had terrible BCs so they weren't of much interest to me.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Ian just did a video on progressive rifling, so now for a week every anon is gonna be an expert on twist rates.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          What kind of velocity did you get.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >I had major problems with the bullets coming apart the moment they left the muzzle
          Same thing used to happen with guys hotrodding .220 Swift and similar stuff. They'd just shred themselves and turn into a gray puff.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Accuracy is not really that much of an issue these days.
      Shotguns fire both standard slugs and sabot slugs just fine. And I can get some very impressive accuracy with sabot slugs from an old Marlin.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Shotgun sabots aren't relevant to the discussion. The pressures and velocities aren't in the same ballpark. While I agree that shotgun sabots are impressive, that fact is completely irrelevant when talking about sabots for modern bottleneck rifle cartridges.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          not him but could sabots work good with a smoothbore rifle?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Of course they could.
            Tanks use them.
            But you wouldn't want to do it, as it would start requiring some kind of finned stabilization or the like to work properly. Which is just adding complexity into an area of small arms where its not needed.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            They could so long as the projectile was designed for it. There are two main ways to stabilize bullets. The first is drag stabilization. That works by shaping the bullet so its center of mass is in front of its center of drag, like a diabolo shaped airgun pellet or a shuttlecock for badminton. It flies straight because the "tail" is lighter than the "nose" so drag keeps it pointed forward. That's how most shotgun slugs work. This would work fine in a smoothbore rifle too.
            The other method is spin stabilization, i.e. rifling.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          They're relevant within the ranges of accuracy between sabot'd projectiles and standard ones.
          They aren't relevant when discussing say effects on pressure curves or utility of the sabot as a concept for increased velocity.
          But when the talk is whether you can built a barrel/a sabot'd projectile that works with standard cartridges as well, its demonstrable of it being possible.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >They're relevant within the ranges of accuracy between sabot'd projectiles and standard ones.

            The discussion was about high speed sabot rifle rounds not shotgun rounds. It would be like saying that a discussion about dragster tires should include discussions about what tires to put on your corolla. Just no. The use cases and stresses are entirely different.

            https://i.imgur.com/lVoj6az.jpg

            They could so long as the projectile was designed for it. There are two main ways to stabilize bullets. The first is drag stabilization. That works by shaping the bullet so its center of mass is in front of its center of drag, like a diabolo shaped airgun pellet or a shuttlecock for badminton. It flies straight because the "tail" is lighter than the "nose" so drag keeps it pointed forward. That's how most shotgun slugs work. This would work fine in a smoothbore rifle too.
            The other method is spin stabilization, i.e. rifling.

            Could work? Sure. Practical in any real world scenario? FUCK no. Nobody wants to literally precision machine fucking stabilizing fins onto every bullet of a small arm. You have to be precise as shit in something as delicate as that so unless you want to spend $40 a bullet you will never resort to doing that. This is one of the major reasons flechette were an absolute disaster when they were doing trials on them. Aside from piss poor general performance they couldnt make enough with high enough quality to actually fly straight and hit shit.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Practical in any real world scenario? FUCK no.
              Totally agreed.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              not him but machining gets cheaper every day and you wouldnt need ornate fins liek a tank round you could make it look like a hardware nail and drag would still stabilize it

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                There is a difference between stabilized and "stabilized." When you are talking ammo you want to actually be accurate you cant just slap something on it quick and cheap and expect it to hold to any reasonable accuracy. EVERY bullet will have to be machined to VERY tight tolerances or the weights and balance will be off and suddenly you are shooting 6 MOA. With normal bullets you dont have to machine anything and just press form exact weights into exact molds and you are done. That shit doesnt work on delicate features. If that shit isnt perfect it will just wobble and ruin everything.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I think his point was that you don't need delicate features, all you need is the nose of the bullet to be heavier than the rear. Having those fins like a Nerf football is an extraordinarily inefficient way to do things, but something like a foster slug that's simply hollow at the base is simple and can be done with a press at high speed. Or think of a polymer-tipped bullet but backwards: a polymer insert at the base of the bullet while the nose is solid. Kinda like a rifle version of a Brenneke slug.

                Now I do agree that the whole exercise is pointless. Yeah we could make a drag-stabilized rifle bullet that could be fired out of a smoothbore, but so what? What would that get us that a normal bullet cannot do?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >What would that get us that a normal bullet cannot do?
                AP

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >AP
                What does a sabot get you that an AP bullet cast with a steel/tungsten/whatever penetrator core doesn't?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >They're relevant within the ranges of accuracy between sabot'd projectiles and standard ones.
            Not in my opinion.

            >But when the talk is whether you can built a barrel/a sabot'd projectile that works with standard cartridges as well, its demonstrable of it being possible.
            We've already established that the twist rate is of massive importance for firing standard rifle bullets. vs significantly lighter sabots; this is something which a shotgun comparison provides us no information on. The fact that a shotgun can fire a rifled slug accurately is meaningless when the problem has much to do with twist rates.

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They got popular 170 years ago bro

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Don't work well with muzzle devices. And ones that do work well are often of suboptimal design.
    Their advantage is letting you have extremely fast velocities. Which is notable, but we still have been able to get high velocity with standard bullet designs so far.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Pepperpot designs are compatible.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Erratically flying sabots will kill or injure your buddies

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >why didn't sending a 55gr projectile traveling 4000fps down a barrel with a twist designed for a 150 gr bullet @ 2800fps never catch on
    We may never know

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >why have sabot rifle rounds never caught on? they seem litty no cap
    I'm surprised nobody yet has pointed to the elephant in the room: the main point is armor penetration, but AP AMMO IS ILLEGAL FOR DIRECT SALE TO REG CIVVIES EXCEPT BY GOV. You need a type 10 FFL to make it. This completely neuters potential sales. Like, you might as well ask
    >"why haven't tungsten cored expanding wing aluminum clad 9mm rounds ever caught on"
    or a bunch of other possibilities, while they'd certainly be pricier to manufacturer there is a proven market for expensive EDC rounds and they definitely work well. And the answer is that the only potential customers would be law enforcement, and I want to emphasize "potential" since getting sales to gov is non-trivial and everyone tends to be quite conservative (not without reason granted but it goes too far).

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      OP here, I did not know that tbqh.
      I think a case could be made for a long skinny projectile with high velocity that tumbles even if its not AP tho, but I guess the juice is not worth the squeeze

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