Recently picked up a flight sim for the MiG-21bis, and it just terrifies me that pilots actually went out with this shit radar against sparrows. How did they cope?
Recently picked up a flight sim for the MiG-21bis, and it just terrifies me that pilots actually went out with this shit radar against sparrows.
Game is war thunder Simulator mode if you were wondering
that's not a flight sim, it's an arcade flight shooter and a psyop, and this thread is an ad and not /k/-related
good enough north korea uses it to train pilots
play a real simulator and you'll understand further how fucked mig-21 pilots were
That's not a simulator at all.
>RUSSIAN STALINIUM STRONG
this is why i take the italian or swedish trees and do my best to kill russian players in particular then mock them in all chat
The weakspot is still there it's just that the game engine has ERA working at 100% even if you just graze the edge by 1 pixel. In game the T-80BVM has the T-80U hull, I'm more skeptical they upgraded the hull on all of them and they don't mostly have T-80B hulls.
T80B hull front composite array was changed mid production.
Don't look into soviet tanks, the amount of shit they changed without redesignating or even publishing documentation will drive you to drink.
Anon your screen shot doesn't even show the same location as the real one and the approximate location in the screen shot. You're deliberately aiming below the array while in the actual T-80BVM hit that hits right on the array where the steel is welded onto the upper plate for the ERA mount. By deliberately aiming lower you're hitting the overlap joint on the UFP and LFP while excluding the ERA or at least the structural elements for mounting the ERA which add some resistance to penetration, especially in the actual photo where it strikes the vertical rib dead flat.
There indeed have been many BVMs destroyed in Ukraine with B hulls
Air sim is kinda all right actually.
Ground battles are ass obviously because ERA and Soviet composite armor ludicrously overperform and the ammo in the carousel is about 100 times less sensitive than in real life.
>air sim is alright
Not really, 90% of the real challenge in modern/post-50s air combat is in positioning, energy management and use of sensors. War Thunder is set up to funnel you into a dogfighting zone (no positioning), gives you the option of "climb or die" until you get to missiles at which point it's "don't climb" (no energy management) and the sensors, while actually well simulated by industry standards (i'm not joking either) don't involve actually, you know, using the damn sensors so they don't hold up either.
Of course nobody is going to accept an overhaul of air sim or god forbid realistic that changes it to be more like DCS. War Thunder's community is retarded like that.
I just want to dab on people in my semi-realistic-behaving MiG-23 dude.
Oh yeah I suppose, I don't fly anything post-Korea, it's the fun cutoff. For tanks it's even earlier.
Personally for gameplay I like early Italian and Swedish up to like BR 4-5. So yeah I agree with you dude. Nothing better than ruining some tryhard Wehraboo's day because he thought his Panzer IV had decent armor and ran into my Lago I kek
>don't climb
I used to fuck people by climbing to space in my 104S at the beginning of the battle, where nobody would ping me, SARH-joust with whoever did the same (usually win) then prey on miggers at low energy state in the furball below. It was a fun time, and it got even funnier when they gave 9L to the 104S. The issue I had in doing that is the fact the maps are so fucking small I had to orbit around the map constantly banked, because the turn radius of a 104 at altitude is half a map big. The best time I had was when they added EC maps to ARB. Of course a MiG-21bis accelerated and flew faster than a 104S while carrying twice the ordnance, despite flight manuals showing it as outright impossible, because *~~*~~*~~)
>Not really, 90% of the real challenge in modern/post-50s air combat is in positioning, energy management and use of sensors. War Thunder is set up to funnel you into a dogfighting zone (no positioning), gives you the option of "climb or die" until you get to missiles at which point it's "don't climb" (no energy management) and the sensors, while actually well simulated by industry standards (i'm not joking either) don't involve actually, you know, using the damn sensors so they don't hold up either.
>Of course nobody is going to accept an overhaul of air sim or god forbid realistic that changes it to be more like DCS. War Thunder's community is retarded like that.
>I just want to dab on people in my semi-realistic-behaving MiG-23 dude.
Air sim mode is different to RB, you have an open map about 150km x 150km. They have gotten a bit too small again with the 4th gen fighters though.
The game was designed around WW2 prop fighters and air RB actually works really well there, you end up with very authentic feeling air combat in many ways that depends massively on energy management and positioning, honestly probably more than real life (where team work mattered more).
The main unrealism is how accurate everyone is with mouse aim, deflection shots out to 600m and beyond which is far more accurate than IRL.
However the post Korea jets were basically just tacked on to this system.
The most glaring issue that no-one talks about is the mouse and keyboard control system, which in practice does not allow you to control turn rate in fast jets.
This means that everyone is pulling maximum G all the time in instantaneous turns, there is no easy way to perform a sustained turn maneuver that retains energy in jet air RB.
This has also led to a kind of G creep where jets regularly perform 10+ G maneuvers, it's so bad that they had to remove the FBW G limit system from the F-16, that realistically limited it to 9G, since it was struggling against unrestricted jets that would pull 13G instantaneous turns.
With mouse and keyboard you either have the fine control of the mouse aim or the maximum rate of the keyboard controls there is no way to manage rate, which is much more important in jets where corner speed is very important.
>everyone keeps posting this photo but never a photo of the other sie
this. theres a hole, but did it make it all the way in? was this even before the tank was killed? what even hit it? theres "almost assuredly was this", and "it was"
after playing war thunder for 10 years since it was mostly WW2 shit, nothing feels better than taking the f-14b out, climbing straight towards the enemy, sending out a volley of 6 aim-54s and racking up 1-4 kills with zero effort.
really makes up for all the hours spent side climbing only to get shit on by a spitfire coming out of low orbit
>war blunder
>simulator
dumb zoomer-kun, just because your game don't use healthbars doesn't mean it's a simulator
Play DCS world you brainlet fuck.
>warthunder
I hate this board so fucking much
100 percent spot on.
imagine paying for a flight stick and using it to play fucking war thunder lol. i only play that shit because there is no other(to my knowledge) flight game with decent mouse/gamepad support.
Just don't be truthful to your pilots about the capabilities of your adversaries.
>went out with this shit radar against sparrows
thats you mistake if you have higher quality opponents dont use your radar use heaters and let gci guide you
Yes that was the strat. But what capabilities did gci even give them? I know the SPS and MF have some shitty radar so they have to rely on gci even more. But what does it give you. Sure they detect a pair of F4s, and scramble migs - but then what
against high flying targets you can do the iraqi giraffe other than that fly low dont be detected yourself. if the phantoms are on you go defensive and let your friends do the job if they then switch to your friends its your job to attack.
This, nothing fights in a vacuum.
Also there are few things more rewarding in vidya than getting the jump on a gen 4 in a gen 2 in DCS.
That was littlerally how the Mig 21 was designed to operate. The radar can only run for a few minutes assuming Ivan didn't drink all the cooling alchohol before you took off.
>went out with this shit radar against sparrows
you don't use the radar on this thing unless you're intercepting B-52s in clouds or something.
stay on the deck, follow GCI. until the F-4J with its look down radar there was nothing that could really counter these tactics.
What if youre not operating in range of gci
>Its task was to recognize any aircraft from 20kms and to lock onto them from 10kms.
Probably look out the window for contrails. I'm not joking.
Mig21 combat radius is like 35 km without tanks
Then you're shit out of luck, against F-4s anyway.
You can make it work on the ECW server but IRL anything going up against a Phantom on equal terms was more or less fucked, before the MiG-23 showed up. The viets knew this and only sortied when they could ambush the enemy. The arabs didn't get this luxury and got chewed up.
Even the F-4J was far from perfect, hell the F-15C isn't an all-seeing eye either
ground clutter is a hell of a thing, fly nape enough and you can get away with a lot
that was then, not sure about now
I wonder if the Soviet Union would still be a thing if they'd taken AWACS development seriously
a good awacs would not change a blown up nuclear reactor, a lost afghan war or a bad economy
frankly the problem of the soviet union was that they were trying to keep up with NATO in all fields when they could not really do that and spent an insane amount of their budget doing so.
They weren't though. They knew they couldn't compete for air superiority and never actually did.
vatnik union was inherently disfunctional. Aside from the crisis of the day it was fundamentally ridden with ethnic strife as all the imprisoned ethnics wanted to get out of the vatniks open air prison. All which could only be contained with raw, physical threats and violence.
Its no coincidence its implosions started from the most western parts of the eastern block (like east germany) and like a wave spread east starting with the baltic states inside the "union" itself. it was just another take on the muscovites imperial construct with the current "federation" being the third, remnant of the fromer two failed attempts
Also the other thing that you probably don't know about the MiG-21 since you've only played it in War Thunder is that it has a habit of flaming out and losing hydraulic pressure kek
at least it didn't spontaneously combust and explode from fuel vapors inide fuel tanks like the previous Migs
Not to mention that a flameout during approach was a death sentence for the aircraft at the very least, since dead stick landing a MiG-21 wasn't any better than on a F-104.
So its like you just holding the stick and shouting ahh motherland!!!!
>*CLICK*CLICK*
>*CLICKCLICKCLICKCLICKCLICK*
>let me just program a waypoint
Say it's 1985. How many suicidal Mig21 pilots will it take to kill two Phantoms?
I love the -21 in DCS, it's so very Russian
>Pneumatic brakes, but no compressor on board
>Brakes also used for ground steering
>Total loss radar coolant
>Low altitude radar mode? Simply point the antenna up
>Autocannon cocked with priming charges fired from the cockpit
>Flight regimes where you may not engage afterburner
>Flight regimes where you may not exit afterburner
>Flameouts so often you want to bind air restart to your hotas
>All else fails, engage the second afterburner
Also, countermeasures cost extra blyat
dont forget that the landing gear is also operated with the same pneumatic system and if you forget to put your landing gear into neutral after takeoff you are going to have a bad time landing without pressure
>based -21bis enjoyer
You have to admit it's IFF system is pretty based. I like to take it on Enigma's and bounce unsuspecting F-5s and A-4s.
Wait so did the pneumatics just run off a bottle of compressed air? And they'd have to fill up the radar coolant after each mission? Elaborate further please I love the wack shit Russian gear demands.
Yes and yes. The coolant was some alcohol which also tu-22. Rumor is much of the coolant was consumed by the ground crew. for the fishbed Its enough coolant to operate the radar for around 20 minutes non stop. If you run out of coolant and your radar is still on your radar gets fried
wait, was it not a closed system? Shit just boils off?
Russian shit is wack
at least in the tu-22 it was a total-loss evaporator cooling system. cant find info for the saphir-21 radar but my guess is russians just liked those systems at the time
>all outta radar fluid
>can no longer squirt radar waves
Makes sense
>hi welcome to autozone, you lookin for anything?
>uh hello, you got any radar fluid
>Yeah, isle 2, in the freezer next to Tito's.
96% ethanol is also the stuff you wash windshield of MiG-21 with. That 96% ethanol is defined by maintenance documentation as not denatured and its something that is supplied by the barrel to fighter squadrons.
>Total loss radar coolant
Was it the alcohol-based one that had to be carefully guarded at all times lest the ground crew drink it?
by hoping their ejection seat works
you see comrade
if you not have radar warning receiver
you not need worry about ejection seat
Thought this might be sim due to FPV, but seems like someone died at the end to a roland, which implies GRB/GSB. Based anti-cas pilot, there arent many of you out there.
no its air sim. and they were close to our airfields
Playing on a logitech attack 3 (thrift store find). War thunder and il-2 have presets for it
I was just in Mig-21Bis cockpit, its very cramped. Ask me anything
Does the blue give you a calming effect
No, it made me feel uncomfortable and soviet.
ARE YOU CALM YET!?
I've always felt the "calming" effect was a mistranslation, and they were probably talking about lowering eye strain since the blue/green was closer in color to the sky outside their cockpits.
>I've always felt the "calming" effect was a mistranslation
It's don't. Same line of reasoning is why a lot of hospitals, especially the mental wards/floors, were coloured teal.
It IS true. That IS a calming colour...but calming is synonymous with DEPRESSIVE from a physiological point of view so you get what you get.
i dont know if you need to be worried about too much depressive effect while in one of these things. im sure the g forces wake you up real nice like
I'm not saying it worked, I'm saying that was the reason for the color scheme of soviet flight compartments and many hospital floors the world over.
comfy
Very
looks like something out of fallout 4. The ugly pastel baby colors never work on real life machinery
What was your radiation exposure from the Soviet R226 dials?
Play dcs you mong the radar in war thunder is op for Russian shit
>Play dcs
I don't get why you guys keep recommending that game so lightheartedly. Most people are not at that insane level of autism: WT, while obscene, at least gives a very low barrier to entry and requires a low skill floor to actually play, not to mention you don't need VR/head tracking
>low barrier to entry
Then try the Thirdwire games. Yes they are old but there's a sizable community and endless mods. scenarios, campaigns etc etc.
I forgot about these. Used to love them for exactly that reason - not being DCS levels of autistic while not requiring me to grind out for months like warthunder
do SF2 Win10 unreleased rerelease will support legacy mods?
Don't know exactly what you are asking but during the pandemic i picked up the package that has all the product and then went to Combat Ace and downloaded a bunch of stuff. Then i spent a day or so tweaking things until i was set to fly campaigns.
It's not that crazy and you don't need vr or headtracking to play. I knew a kid who could aerial refuel with keyboard. And it's infinitely more rewarding than war thunder
Playing flight sims without even headtracking is a pain in the dick and more likely to discourage a first timer than anything.
t. tried it, moved on to EDTracker and then the Index
Honestly it's shit without headtracking but Smoothtrack is $10 and works extremely well, only smartphone required and everyone has one
>How did they cope?
They died on mass anon. MiG-21 is one of the most shot down jet fighters in history with a terrible kill / death ratio and it sucks as a ground attack aircraft to boot. They built 10,000 of the lemons. Any respect they have managed to hold on to is from that brief moment above Vietnam before the US figured out how to get their missiles working properly and fight with them.
It's Achilles heal was that it just wasn't big enough to fit all the upgrades necessary's to keep up with modern fighters. You could still bring a Phantom into the forth gen with all the modern missiles and avionics... some have.
>They died on mass anon.
It's en masse, Anon.
Jet fighters rarely attend mass.
Mig 21 was not the soviet equivalent of an F-4. It is more like the soviet equivalent of an F-104. It was a good plane for its time.
>It was a good plane for its time.
It's time was right before the start of the radar guided missile era and it's time ended as soon as radar guided missiles were common. They built over 10,000 of a plane that was near immediately obsolete and the only thing it is known for is losing air wars, there is no good way to sugarcoat it, trying to compare it to the Lockheed Lawn Dart certainly is an interesting way to try though.
It's a small cheap mach 2 speedyboy
At least you get an HMD. The F-22 still doesn’t have one
*Sigh*
Fine i guess ill pull out the OH-58 again...
Mig 21 my beloved
war thunder is not a simulator
not even sim mode
Yeah, last i checked is was a thing called a video game??? And a free to play one at that?? I mean correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that a bit absurd?
>mean correct me if I'm wrong
You're wrong, but this is entierely understandable. Plenty of bright people have been had by the duplicitous snail.
Bore Blunder is a psyop.
love me mig-21bis
killl all viggers
Absolutely fuck-awful basic fighter maneuvers. Closure assessment was non-existent unless the intent was boom and zoom, which really wasn't needed against a viggen since you could easily saddle up in the control zone and wail away with multiple gun attempts if you realize there is a throttle setting other than max AB.
>angry troon seethes on /k/ because it spent it's govbucks on hrt instead of VR
How can you be so bad at assessing closure WITH VR?
First one I had already shot out its engines and did just want to boom and zoom as I had been in a fight for a minute or two in contested airspace and didn't have the SA to check for any closing in fighters. Also there is only one other setting than max AB and that's idle for when you gotta hit the brakes and they'll fly right by.
Sounds like good soviet fighter pilot role playing to me
>there is a throttle setting other than max AB.
You lost me. Can you repeat that?
It's a video game bubs relax
Well no actually, he has valid advice. Unless there was a concern of another aircraft in the area ready to drop in on him if he lowered his speed, the best move there was to come in slower to prevent an overshoot. Viggens are fast in a straight line but suffer beyond the first one or two turns (t. viggen enjoyer) and they can carry air to air missiles so it's very rarely a good idea to overshoot one from behind since it'll just throw a sidewinder up your ass.
Like this is standard criticism in BMS even.
You can't possibly be that bad at spotting closure with VR anon. You are sentenced to spend the next 6 hours of your DCS gameplay doing patterns and RATIONAL, SAFE formation flying on that aerobatic server.
I mean, kinda rational I guess, but you really should have come in from a steeper angle anon. Doesn't matter if it has no engines or had spent its missiles you shouldn't build up the instinct to do that shit again a viggen.
Yeah, reasonable post anon and I agree with you. If you have a flight stick you should try ARB with that, you get BTFO 9/10 times by mouse look UFOs but sometimes you can pull off magical shit and have people accuse you of cheating due to your energy retention.
Yeah man post your BFM clips and maybe I might read all that shit.
>BFM
If you've been on GS in the last 2 years and gone up against an F-16 on either side, you've probably been yeeted by me with an AIM-120. Cope, seethe, and learn how to fly migger.
kek, as if I would ever fly in a server with fox-3s. Active radar missiles are the mind killer.
>the migger fears the AIM-120
Agreed anon I personally prefer the viggen more but come the fuck on you know people are going to mock you for flying the 21.
I'm just giving you shit, I've splashed a couple f-16s on GS in the 21 but that's just mostly the luck of running into noobs with no SA. I stick to ECW and Tempest now.
>ECW
my nigga
>but that's just mostly the luck of running into noobs with no SA
That was the primary NVPAF tactic against the USAF. GCI vectored high and to the rear of US forces and make high speed blow through attacks and then run for it.
>if i don't see anything on the RWR it doesn't exist
>they're head down super fixated on their FCR
>they do a max performance break turn to their left or right AND drop their nose hard the moment they see "21" to their 6
>you now have the energy advantage
>turn your radar off and do the rest visually
I can see why tbh, would have been even harder to deal with back in the 70s, way too much to manage.
Funnily enough it probably worked less in the 50s since the pilots from then would have had more experience from WW2.
60s USAF was pants on head retarded. Not just on a tactical but also on a strategic level.
>we can't bomb those SAM positions, soviet advisers might be there and we can't have them hurt!
To be fair the entire Vietnam War was nothing but one giant half baked clusterfuck. I’m almost convinced part of the reason why it was launched the way it was came from the fact that certain figures in DC knew it was a perfect testbed for all sorts of experimental shit. The Ho Chi Minh trail got bombed to shit and so did nearby countries like Cambodia and Laos, which certainly would have had muh Soviet advisors or at least some other type of personnell somewhere along the lines, even if it was just a couple truck drivers delivering AK’s and shit.
More Soviets died after the American involvement than during it. Funny thing i remember from long ago reading is that Russians were deemed "Americans without money" after they were based at Cam Ranh Bay.
According to author Mick Hispanicks research, the vast majority of pilots shot down in WW2 never had a clue to the threat. By Vietnam, the problem was compounded by the SAM threat. You can read of any number of instances where sometimes multiple US aircraft were hit by Atoll firing Mig 21s on a single pass. Not that 21s were never stymied or shot down during these, but 21s were considered an especially dangerous threat during Rolling Thunder.
The scariest bit of Vietnam related knowledge to me is that F-4 (I think) pilots had RWRs that would alert them to the fire control radar painting them but not the actual guidance signals, so they required wild weasel aircraft with equipment capable of detecting those to come along with them. If you didn't have them it was feasible for the SA-2 battery to basically program in a fake contact with the radar off, launch a missile at your rough location, then turn the radar on a few seconds before impact. I think a few B-52s were lost this way during poor weather too.
Might have not gotten it exactly right but I think it worked roughly like that.
Mig-21s were a massively overblown threat during vietnam and their contribution was so miniscule they might've not existed at all.
To put it into perspective, Mig-21s flew fewer sorties during the war than a single F-5 test squadron did. Entire NV aviation contributed to about 3% of USAF combat losses, with the remainging 97% going to ground fire and SAMs. Mig threat was such a minute and rare occasion compared to the rest that it's not even worth talking about, let alone let media blow it as much out of proportion as it is. All vietnam war journos in US must hang. The disgusting, filthy treasonous liars, the lot of them.
>Mig threat was such a minute and rare occasion compared to the rest that it's not even worth talking about
You are about as stupid as the day is long. Go look up the recollections of pilots who regularly went up North. They'll say otherwise virtually to a man. The most nonchalant attitude you'll ever find were that Migs were "take it or leave it". Way too often you'll hear of "such and such call sign" was hit by an Atoll and went down.
Getting bushwhacked by MiG-21s was memorable, sure, but it was also rare. The US flew an insane number of sorties compared to the commies.
Atolls were the cause of losses of several dozen aircraft. You've bought into the hype created by politically motivated journalists and can't come to terms with reality.
Vietnamese aircraft had virtually no impact on the air war.
>You've bought into the hype created by politically motivated journalists and can't come to terms with reality.
I'll give two names off the top of my head that wrote about their flying in RP5 and RP6 that would beg to differ with you... Robin Olds and Ed Rasimus. If you insist, i can quote multiple pilots, complete with rank at the time, and you can try quibbling with their opinions.
Idgaf what vietnam war grifters had to say. These wouldn't be significant losses even in later wars. The vietnamese migs are a drop in the ocean compared to the threats aviators faced from the ground. Best they could do is harass bomb-laden aircraft.
You got a bit carried away with your trolling
>Vietnamese aircraft had virtually no impact on the air war.
Somehow, i don't think you would dare post that on a dedicated military aviation forum.
While having fun is certainly the most important part of flying, I hope you realize you'd get fucked up by frag and debris IRL, or even in a sim that actually simulates it (can't even count the number of times I hung too closely to a bomber's tail and got my prop wrecked by the debris in IL-2 BoS).
Why bother with DCS if you're going to play it like WT Arcade?
I've sucked hind parts into my F5s engine intake (resulting in an immediate emergency field landing) so it is simulated, I just got lucky there. Also you have autism and should have a nice day.
>captcha: TWAT PN
by doing point defense interception things at low altitude, the sparrow kinda sucked irl and they were very small, very fast aircraft with light smoke, enabling them to get into BFM/Heater range
People always complain about landing the MiG-21 in DCS, but as long as you follow procedure it's pretty straightforward.
The main thing to remember is that the wing has a blown flap system to increase lift when flaps are deployed (feature on the heavier, later MiG-21s), however it only functions above 50% throttle, so if you drop below 50% you will get a sudden loss of lift.
The trick to landing is just to come in fairly fast with high drag and (relatively) high throttle, if you have to abort don't be afraid to use afterburner.
War blunder doesn't simulate the situation that well, you have no GCI/AWACS to give you SA.
The MiG-21bis's realistic adversary was the F-16A which had a far superior radar, but was armed with only heaters. The second stage afterburner gave the fishbed enough TWR to just keep up in a fight.
The MiG-23 and then 29 were supposed to be the "high" of the 'hi/lo" strategy if you will
actually the fishbed's real adversary would've been the F-4 for most of the cold war.
The F-4's radar sucked ass, conical scan missiles suck major ass, and the F-4 could hardly turn before the "agile eagle" program which gave it slats.
Plane for plane pre-agile eagle F-4 would've just been food for fishbeds. Encountering the whole dynamic of rather decent pilots and structure of the USAF, the F-4 and fishbed were rough equals.
>The F-4's radar sucked ass, conical scan missiles suck major ass, and the F-4 could hardly turn before the "agile eagle" program which gave it slats.
This is vatnagger projection.
>Plane for plane pre-agile eagle F-4 would've just been food for fishbeds.
Lmao. F-4s killed migs 3:1.
at least until mig29 doctrine was that ground control supports pilots in acquiring and approaching/engaging/evading targets
literally every single person who posted in this thread should kill themself
Unless you're playing in a consol you aren't really playing the game right, warthunder is easy mode when using a computer
they seethed
MiG-19 was always better anyways.
Not as maneuverable as a 17 and slower than a 21. Excellent dogfighter with zero range, however.
That aside I really like what the chinks did with it in the Q-5.
DCS Mig-17 when come on Red Star get your shit together.
no more redfor until Razbam get off their asses and give my my flogger
Sparrows sucked even worse.
>it just terrifies me that pilots actually went out with this shit radar against sparrows
Fighter radars are just targeting devices to engage what's right in front of you, you are led onto your target by ground radar. The tower would coordinate your flight with all other traffic and keep track of the overall tactical situation. That's also why it was acceptable in the mig to have a time limit to how long you could even have the radar running before the coolant ran out, it's only supposed to work when you need to shoot something.
Any game where you fly solo and quiet is the equivalent of trying to do your taxes from the cabin in euro truck simulator and wondering why it's so hard to run a german freight business
>all that shit you wrote
Yes, that was the theory. Esp. for the soviets In practice, it fell flat on its face during the vietnam era and fighters with the better radars won.
Works better these days with current radar though.